LTD, round 3: This time, we settle it with Jello Wrestling

[Ryushikaze]

Well, they do think it's a declaration of love, so...

Also, Vend, you rat bastard, that was hilarious.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Yes, yes it is, but I don't like the whole, "It's third person limited and only shows Aerith's feelings/Aerith is delusional" argument. It just doesn't sit well with me...

But it DOES only show Aerith's feelings, so...

I'd feel the same way if CoT said 'Tifa's koibito--Cloud, came home with Denzel' or something similar because HEY GUESS WHAT that story is also first person limited.

 

[Eerie]

No matter how you put it, a 3rd POV is not meant to know everything, NOR to tell the whole truth either. It is meant to show Aerith's POV in this case, not Cloud's, nor Tifa's. Cloud was someone she cherished, a beloved person she still wishes to protect.

I don't know why you're so confused over using this - there's nothing to be confused about, that's how it is. And when the creator says that Tifa is someone's beloved - then it doesn't take a genius to know who he's talking about. I mean at this point, it's just like Harmonians saying that Rowling is teasing with pairings when she flat out calls out the idiocies they've sprout.

Saying "I don't like using that argument", just why exactly? It's just the plain truth. What's so bad about the truth? We know that the only girl that Cloud was intimate with in FFVII is Tifa. So if Aerith is speaking like this, then, what does she mean? Probably not that they were lovers, but rather that SHE loved him. Which is, uh, nothing new.

Also, I was lost on the flowers. >____> Even if they're a nod to Aerith, they're certainly not a nod to Clerith, so I don't know why you'd "let that to them". Bullshit is still bullshit.

 

[Ryushikaze]

But it DOES only show Aerith's feelings, so...

I'd feel the same way if CoT said 'Tifa's koibito--Cloud, came home with Denzel' or something similar because HEY GUESS WHAT that story is also first person limited.

Hence why we look elsewhere, especially to Cloud's word, actions and extra universal perspective, to figure out Cloud's affections. Because Cloud's the one that matters. He's the one that matters, Aerith and Tifa are secondary, technically speaking.

 

[Madame Mayor]

Just one more thing to add... something I've realized when I'm debating is that I can't use someone else's argument and still feel good about myself, especially if I don't agree with it.

This isn't like the clerii camp. It's not like we make websites with our evidence that we expect other people to go spewing around the internet. We don't collect ourselves after ever new instalment to try and find what we can twist so that people don't "convert" to the other side. The rest of the fandom can simply see the forest for the trees, and while the clerii dub everyone who doesn't agree with them "cloti", we aren't a group like they are.

So, while I agree with what the others above me pointed out, if you don't like an argument, don't use it.

However, remember to the debate has long since been about converting the die hards. Most of the time, we debate for the people who are confused and aren't shippers who lurk out of curiosity. Another reason is simple and fun literary analysis. So, if you don't agree with an argument, have a fun debate over it. Both people in the discussion might learn something. And if you still don't agree, then don't agree.

You aren't going to be cast out as a non-believer for not preaching everything weRyu say.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

You are not alone bella. I...we're here for you right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9pF9BJQBLo#t=11s

Vendella: IT'S CANON, FOLKS.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Though a small act of contrition for your blasphemy against my word may be required.

Immolation, for example.

But yes, Balth has a point. We're hardly monolithic and have no 'party line' to adhere to, no central leader, no matter how much some people might want to cast me or others in that role.
So yes, feel free not to use someone else's argument.
But also, don't just concede a point because you don't have a counterargument. The person asserting that point needs to fulfill their burden of proof before you have to even think about rebuttal or counterargument of any kind.

 

[Isabella]

Cool, I've never been one half of a ship before. At least, not that I'm aware of.

And no, we aren't a hive mind. Though, as Wolvy pointed out, we tend to all be lumped with the "Cloti" label if we don't ship CxA, we're all free to see the comp the way we will. It just happens that 95% of the fandom sees the same end result because it's clear as day if you don't have ulterior motives.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Cool, I've never been one half of a ship before.

That would be missing the point. You guys are one whole -- you literally live inside each other.

It just happens that 95% of the fandom sees the same end result because it's clear as day ...

Vendella?

 

[Isabella]

Vendella? Epic. Though, judging by what I've seen in political threads, we're even more opposites than Cloud and Aerith.

 

[Vendel]

If you see a few Cleriths starting to ship VenniexIsa, don't be surprised.

But our childhood promise under a star! Is that meaningless?

Cool, I've never been one half of a ship before. At least, not that I'm aware of.

Cloud wasn't aware either. But who has that stopped?

Vendella? Epic. Though, judging by what I've seen in political threads, we're even more opposites than Cloud and Aerith

That just means we are more likely to work. If we were similar. By lets say we both wore black. Then it could never work.

But yes, Balth has a point. We're hardly monolithic and have no 'party line' to adhere to, no central leader, no matter how much some people might want to cast me or others in that role.

I volunteer myself for the position of supreme cloti leader.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

"It's third person limited and only shows Aerith's feelings/Aerith is delusional"

...but it is third person limited and if you're saying Cloud, who was never even aware of Aeris being in love with him, was her boytoy in a mutual relationship without being aware of it, then yes she is delusional. Note that you only come to that conclusion if you think like a pinkster though.

As for the flower controversy, my problem is that in equating flowers with Aeris the character, the focus is shifted on said character rather than what they represent. Atonement as represented by flowers is not the same as Aeris as represented by flowers. The former refers to greater whole of which Aeris is only a part and her image only secondary, if even that.

 

[KissTheRain]

Okay, Vendel, Isabella who wants to be the dead one? Then you'll be parallel to RomeoxJuliet, JackxRose, TidusxYuna, VincentxLucrecia, to confirm your canon! : D

 

[Dashell]

...but it is third person limited and if you're saying Cloud, who was never even aware of Aeris being in love with him, was her boytoy in a mutual relationship without being aware of it, then yes she is delusional. Note that you only come to that conclusion if you think like a pinkster though.

Pfft, I don't know why this gets discussed so much. I played the game and I saw a chemistry between Cloud and Aerith. I don't know why people are so against it. Unless you're really trying to argue that Aerith can't find her own ass with two hands and a flashlight. Especially since those same people turn around and say "RED HERRING!"

So we have three options here.

1. Cloud and Aerith had a mutual relationship based on love and understanding. They, at one point that we did NOT see, decided to be boyfriend/girlfriend and Aerith is stating such on CoLW.
- Well we never saw it obviously, but CoLW tell us it happened. We don't really know when and the other characters don't seem aware of it. Maybe it was during their date, who knows?

2. Cloud and Aerith never had a relationship and Aerith is delusional and simply wishing and thinking Cloud was her BF even though he has no feelings for her.
- Uhm, no...

3. By calling Cloud her koibito, Aerith is simply stating that she has a desire and love for Cloud. She doesn't know if he loved her back or not, but she cares deeply for him and she states so as such as CoLW.
... okay now we're getting somewhere.

See the difference? While it's not huge with one you have to assume Aerith is nuts, and the other you use the rarer but still used definition of koibito:
http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/search?stype=1&ei=UTF-8&dtype=2&p=こいびと

I prefer to use argument 3. While it's similar to the third person limited one, you can make it without making Aerith seem nuts

As for why I don't like using an argument, if I don't agree with it, I'm not gonna use it, and that's all there is to it with that.

And as long as you guys aren't saying the flowers have NOTHING to do with Aerith, then I'm fine with that.

 

[Vendel]

Pfft, I don't know why this gets discussed so much. I played the game and I saw a chemistry between Cloud and Aerith. I don't know why people are so against it especially since those same people turn around and say "RED HERRING!"

I saw Aerith wanted his dick. And Cloud had the aspects of a 'defrosting ice queen'. But it was all red herring. The entire potential relationship. I mean this all happens on disk one people.

1. Cloud and Aerith had a mutual relationship based on love and understanding. They, at one point that we did NOT see, decided to be boyfriend/girlfriend and Aerith is stating such on CoLW.
- Well we never saw it obviously, but CoLW tell us it happened. We don't really know when and the other characters don't seem aware of it. Maybe it was during their date, who knows?

I like this one. C/A have a mutual relationship based on love and understanding. While she is still trying to relive Zack and Cloud is officially none the wiser to Aerith's affections.

2. Cloud and Aerith never had a relationship and Aerith is delusional and simply wishing and thinking Cloud was her BF even though he has no feelings for her.
- Uhm, no...

I would be perfectly fine with this.

3. By calling Cloud her koibito, Aerith is simply stating that she has a desire and love for Cloud. She doesn't know if he loved her back or not, but she cares deeply for him and she states so as such as CoLW.
... okay now we're getting somewhere.

Which would go against the most well established use of koibito wouldn't it?

See the difference?

Yes. #2 makes sense in the context of FFVII itself. While 1 is right out. And #3 takes some work.

And as long as you guys aren't saying the flowers have NOTHING to do with Aerith, then I'm fine with that.

The flowers in Dissidia have nothing to do with Aerith.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

1. Cloud and Aerith had a mutual relationship based on love and understanding. They, at one point that we did NOT see, decided to be boyfriend/girlfriend and Aerith is stating such on CoLW.
- Well we never saw it obviously, but CoLW tell us it happened. We don't really know when and the other characters don't seem aware of it. Maybe it was during their date, who knows?

2. Cloud and Aerith never had a relationship and Aerith is delusional and simply wishing and thinking Cloud was her BF even though he has no feelings for her.
- Uhm, no...

3. By calling Cloud her koibito, Aerith is simply stating that she has a desire and love for Cloud. She doesn't know if he loved her back or not, but she cares deeply for him and she states so as such as CoLW.
... okay now we're getting somewhere.

The first argument contradicts the Ultimania, which says Cloud is a stupid buttface and doesn't realize that two gorgeous women want his bod. Which means he couldn't have been dating/interested in either girl in the first disc because he's too dumb.

 

[Isabella]

Third-person limited doesn't mean Aerith is nuts. It simply means we're getting one character's perspective. Both #2 and #3 assume limited perspective. #1 is completely ruled out by one of the ultimanias.

Oh, and chasing the phantom of a lost love is not "delusional" and "nuts." It's a coping mechanism used by an individual who's still hurting from a loss. You'll find such behaviors in real, live people who are perfectly sane.

 

[Dashell]

The flowers in Dissidia have nothing to do with Aerith.

And as long as you guys (besides Vendel) aren't saying the flowers have NOTHING to do with Aerith, then I'm fine with that.

The first argument contradicts the Ultimania, which says Cloud is a stupid buttface and doesn't realize that two gorgeous women want his bod.

... okay I'll admit I haven't read the Ultimanias but I'm pretty sure the word buttface never came up

Third-person limited doesn't mean Aerith is nuts. It simply means we're getting one character's perspective. Both #2 and #3 assume limited perspective. #1 is completely ruled out by one of the ultimanias.

Good I'll stick with 3

Oh, and chasing the phantom of a lost love is not "delusional" and "nuts." It's a coping mechanism used by an individual who's still hurting from a loss. You'll find such behaviors in real, live people who are perfectly sane.

I just don't think Nojima would write such a statement with the thought in mind that the fans will be able to know Aerith is wrong. I can however, see him writing it thinking that it's Aerith's perspective and he's simply saying she loves Cloud.

 

[Vendel]

It just occurred to me. Since we are a hive mind with a top down structure. We need a special title for the true believers.

Aerith is Special because she is a Cetra. What would be the Tifa equivalent? What makes her special?

Henceforth those that have shown the proper acceptance and knowledge of the light that is Cloti shall be granted special privileges. And be marked with the title of "Well-Endowed".

So shall it be written. So shall it be done.

 

[Isabella]

I played the game and I saw a chemistry between Cloud and Aerith. I don't know why people are so against it. Unless you're really trying to argue that Aerith can't find her own ass with two hands and a flashlight. Especially since those same people turn around and say "RED HERRING!"

About this ... the problem isn't with chemistry. I saw that too. The problem is the giant leap from chemistry and romantic potential to full-blown relationship. It's a red herring because it DIDN'T lead where it looked like it might.

Vendel, I'm already well-endowed and don't particularly enjoy it. No thanks.

 

[KissTheRain]

What would be the Tifa equivalent? What makes her special?

Wow Vendel, I guess I know you're gay now.

LOOK DOWN.

 

[Madame Mayor]

Atonement as represented by flowers is not the same as Aeris as represented by flowers.

This. This is what I was trying to get at with the flower thing.

I played the game and I saw a chemistry between Cloud and Aerith. I don't know why people are so against it.

I saw potential, not chemistry, and there is a difference.

I just don't think Nojima would write such a statement with the thought in mind that the fans will be able to know Aerith is wrong.

Tifa is wrong about Cloud's smile being an illusion. Characters being wrong makes them human.

Plus, the novels aren't meant to be taken by themselves. You're already suppose to know these characters pretty well.

 

[Ryushikaze]

It's a red herring because the Chemistry never becomes actualized romance, BECAUSE he's oblivious to her intents, because he's still doe eyed over the same chick from his childhood even when he has the 'chemistry' with the other girl.

As for Buttface, it doesn't need to be. It's assumed. It is Cloud.

As for perspective and 'wrong', he also has Sephiroth say 'the world was his to rule' in 3PersLim. So he can write people with perspectives that are not purely factual.

 

[Vendel]

Wow Vendel, I guess I know you're gay now.

LOOK DOWN.

Try reading my entire post.

 

[Dashell]

About this ... the problem isn't with chemistry. I saw that too. The problem is the giant leap from chemistry and romantic potential to full-blown relationship. It's a red herring because it DIDN'T lead where it looked like it might.

Im just saying this further supports her saying Cloud was her koibito as in she loves him and all that... but we already knew that...