LTD, round 3: This time, we settle it with Jello Wrestling

[KissTheRain]

Of course Cloud cried, he is a pussy.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Of course Cloud cried, he is a pussy.

I always thought Cloud cried because he never got Aerith's.

That's the real reason Cloti is canon - Aerith died and Cloud thought "Other hot chick or necrophilia.....at least the hot chick has a pulse".

 

[Ryushikaze]

No, Cloti's canon because Polygamy isn't legal in Edge.
Yet.
Then there won't be an end to the shortened names attached to that pairing.

 

[Madame Mayor]

In lit class, when we were looking for symbolism, there was a reason for it.

Go beyond the "flowers = Aerith" idea and explain WHY Aerith would need to be symbolised and referenced. Why would she specifically and by herself need a nod to her at the end of Dissidia? If there isn't a reason, it's probably not meant to be taken as symbolism then.

Unless you seriously think SE went, "lol letz throw in random aerith reference for lulz lolololol"

 

[Dashell]

Go beyond the "flowers = Aerith" idea and explain WHY Aerith would need to be symbolised and referenced. Why would she specifically and by herself need a nod to her at the end of Dissidia? If there isn't a reason, it's probably not meant to be taken as symbolism then.

She had more than that for a reference. Didn't Cloud also have something called Great Gospel? Also an item called Princess Guard is in the game.

Also:
If I win, will I be forgiven?” — Cloud: battling against Cloud.

Cloud wants forgiveness FROM AERITH!

You guys act like Aerith wasn't associated with the game at all and I'm just making shit up. The fact that she has several references in the game should tell you something. If not, why give Riona a nod? Why give ANYONE one?

As for the ending to AC/C, Nomura himself said it was a nod to Aerith:

"In keeping with the notion that Cloud is in the live action world in the end, we filmed the video for the ending credits in Hawaii. There are fields of flowers on both sides of the road, and the colors - yellow and white - are the same as the flowers in Aerith's church." ~Nomura, Reunion Files, pg. 87

 

[Ryushikaze]

She had more than that for a reference. Didn't Cloud also have something called Great Gospel? Also an item called Princess Guard is in the game.

Everyone can equip the great gospel.
There is no item called princess guard. There are, however, Godhand and Premium Heart.

Also:
If I win, will I be forgiven?” — Cloud: battling against Cloud.

Cloud wants forgiveness FROM AERITH!

Cloud wants forgiveness and as of AC/C believe he can only GET IT from Aerith. Previously, he felt he could atone via Denzel.
And it's not Aerith he wants forgiveness from, in a 'Sorry about X, do you forgive me' but who he feels can forgive him- in the sense of a priest forgiving sins.
Further, this specific line is explicitly stated to include his guilt for Zack too.
'Cloud continued to regret the deaths of his best friend and comrade, who were dear to him, in FFVII. In AC, he says “I want to be forgiven.”'

You guys act like Aerith wasn't associated with the game at all and I'm just making shit up. The fact that she has several references in the game should tell you something. If not, why give Riona a nod? Why give ANYONE one?

It's not that she's not associated with the game, it's that you're making too big of a deal out of what is nothing.

As for the ending to AC/C, Nomura himself said it was a nod to Aerith:

Firstly, that's not really a 'nod', it's an observation. Secondly, I again point out that internal relevance outweighs external reference.

Lastly, I point out that reference in dissidia means JACK SHIT.

Rosa, quite bluntly, is the first romantic interest of a main character in FF history and WIFE of Cecil Harvey. How many callouts did she get in Dissidia? JACK.
Does this make her relationship with Cecil any less so, or the crack pairing certain fans have with him and Rydia- who does appear in Dissidia- any more true or less asinine? No.

And all that is why Dissidia, at best an external reference to the narrative of FF7, is certainly not more authoritative regarding FF7 than the events inside FF7 and the compilation..

 

[Vendel]

Silly Cloti's. Every single game made by SE is pro-clerith. I mean look at all the hints!

 

[Dashell]

There is no item called princess guard. There are, however, Godhand and Premium Heart.

...
Anastar if you're reading this


EDIT
wait, this guide says there is:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/portable/psp/file/939394/55769
this one too:
http://www.neoseeker.com/resourcelink.html?rlid=183672&rid=170493

Cloud wants forgiveness and as of AC/C believe he can only GET IT from Aerith. Previously, he felt he could atone via Denzel.
And it's not Aerith he wants forgiveness from, in a 'Sorry about X, do you forgive me' but who he feels can forgive him- in the sense of a priest forgiving sins.
Further, this specific line is explicitly stated to include his guilt for Zack too.
'Cloud continued to regret the deaths of his best friend and comrade, who were dear to him, in FFVII. In AC, he says “I want to be forgiven.”'

Uhm.. yes?

It's not that she's not associated with the game, it's that you're making too big of a deal out of what is nothing.

Saying, hey guys those flowers in the end could be a nod to Aerith but mean absolutely nothing romantic is making a big deal?
lol, really the only reason I keep bringing it up is because you guys keep doing it

Firstly, that's not really a 'nod', it's an observation.

There was a reason he brought it up, and I highly doubt it was to say "HEY look at that! It has nothing to do with anything, but isn't that neat?"

And all that is why Dissidia, at best an external reference to the narrative of FF7, is certainly not more authoritative regarding FF7 than the events inside FF7 and the compilation..

I agree, I'm just defending my viewpoint.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

In lit class, when we were looking for symbolism, there was a reason for it.

Go beyond the "flowers = Aerith" idea and explain WHY Aerith would need to be symbolised and referenced. Why would she specifically and by herself need a nod to her at the end of Dissidia? If there isn't a reason, it's probably not meant to be taken as symbolism then.

Unless you seriously think SE went, "lol letz throw in random aerith reference for lulz lolololol"

It's not a random reference, though, because Aerith had been established as relevant to Cloud's story in Dissidia via these lines:

Terra: "But you did end up saving me. And I wanted to let you know that."
Cloud: "Even with these doubts, there are still some things I can handle."
Terra: "Is something wrong?"
Cloud: "No, just remembered something that happened before.

This establishes that Cloud's fucked up over Aerith and Zack during Dissidia as well.

Put that together with the following Ultimania quote:

Cloud continued to regret the deaths of his best friend and comrade, who were dear to him, in FFVII. In AC, he says “I want to be forgiven."

So we know he's seeking redemption even during the Dissidia conflict. Which dovetails nicely into:

Terra: "Say, how about we share the dream?"
Cloud: "Share it? The world full of wild roses?"
Terra: "Yes. But it won't just be wild roses. There would be all kinds of flowers. My favorite flower, and my friend's favorite, too... After hearing his dreams, I can see a future that doesn't scare me. I've never felt this way before... But that's a world I'd like to live in--with all of you. We'll still have our doubts, I'm sure-- but if we hold on to that dream, our hearts will never waver. Because our favorite flowers would be there, too."
Cloud: "Not an easy dream to realize. But it doesn't sound that bad."

We know Cloud dreams of atonement. Here, Cloud accepts the dream of a world of flowers, which will contain the flowers that he likes. Flowers which we know are connected to Aerith:

In keeping with the notion that Cloud is in the live action world in the end, we filmed the video for the ending credits in Hawaii. There are fields of flowers on both sides of the road, and the colors - yellow and white - are the same as the flowers in Aerith's church.

All of which is related to:

Sephiroth: "We'll meet again, Cloud. I'll keep coming back-- as long as you are who you are."

[Sephiroth chuckles as light emerges from beneath him and he vanishes]
Cloud: "No thanks. The one I really want to meet is..."

Which references:

An answer from the Planet...
the Promised Land...
I think I can meet her... there.

Which is related to:

Cloud: "I'm going to live. I'll never be forgiven unless I do."

Which leads to:

Cloud: "I want to be forgiven."

And all that is why Dissidia, at best an external reference to the narrative of FF7, is certainly not more authoritative regarding FF7 than the events inside FF7 and the compilation..

In fairness, I don't think Que is suggesting that it is.

 

[Dashell]

In fairness, I don't think Que is suggesting that it is.

ANd I keep having to repeat that but it's not getting through.

 

[Isabella]

When did Q and Tres turn pink on us? Next you two will be writing poetry about raindrop-induced orgasms and making voodoo dolls with voluptuous breasts.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

When did Q and Tres turn pink on us? Next you two will be writing poetry about raindrop-enduced orgasms and making voodoo dolls with voluptuous breasts.

I don't think we have. We're just calling a spade a spade.

A spade called, "It's related to Aerith, but isn't Clerith, just like his need for forgiveness from her was related to her and yet wasn't Clerith."

 

[Vendel]

A spade called, "It's related to Aerith, but isn't Clerith, just like his need for forgiveness from her was related to her and yet wasn't Clerith."

Unless you are Q then it is "Well I personally don't think it's Clerith but to avoid conflict I will just let the pinkers say it is".

THIS IS MADNESS Q!!

 

[Dashell]

GUYS Look I wrote a story:

Oen dya Clud was ridin his Bike, FENRER throo the woods. VRRROOOOM it wernt! It went so fast!!! Sudnely, he stopped cuz he saw Aerith.

Cloud said, "OMG Aerith, WTF?"

And Aerith smieled and sayed back, "HI!"

... wait I did this joke already, NVM

Unless you are Q then it is "Well I personally don't think it's Clerith but to avoid conflict i will just let the pinkers say it is".

That's... not what I said

Imma go ahead and say this one more time:

I DO NOT TRY TO AVOID CONFLICT. I DO NOT CONSIDER THE ENDING OF DISSIDIA A HUGE CLERITH HINT. I CAN, HOWEVER, UNDERSTAND HOW CLERITHS COME TO THAT CONCLUSION. IF ONE OF THEM BRINGS IT UP IN A DEBATE I WILL TELL THEM I DISAGREE, AND I DO BELIEVE THE FLOWERS ARE A SMALL REFERENCE TO AERITH BUT NOT CLERITH?

K

 

[Vendel]

That's not the tune you were singing yesterday. You're worse than SE with the contradictions.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

That's not the tune you were singing yesterday.

Actually, it was:

I'm not saying it's a huge Clerith hint BTW, but those flowers are all about Aerith.

FYI I'm not saying the flowers mean Cloud is Aerith's true lurve or anything, but the flowers are ... a nod to Aerith. Why there's a nod to Aerith would depend on your view of the compilation.

Okay lemme try again

I mean why the flowers are there as an Aerith reference is up to your view on the compilation.

You have to do better than FLOWERS ARE AERITH, THEY JUST ARE. For me to believe it Q. Then you have to be a miracle worker for me to believe that is some hint at C/A. Let alone some sign of true wuv.

FYI I'm not saying the flowers mean Cloud is Aerith's true lurve or anything, but the flowers are, as you put it, a nod to Aerith. Why there's a nod to Aerith would depend on your view of the compilation.

I mean why the flowers are there as an Aerith reference is up to your view on the compilation.
I always saw it as Aerith leading him back to his world really... others see it as true lurve.

If you have a view of the entire compilation being Clerith I can understand why they think that is too. I do think it's an Aerith reference but I think it is for different reasons.

Give me a reasonable explanation why it does involve Aerith.

Flowers have always been associated with Aerith, why do they suddenly not?

By giving them the ending you only mean it's a reference to Aerith, not a love clue, right?

Right, I don't think it's true love, but I do understand why they see it as a love clue.

Again, it's NOT a Clerith hint, but I can see how they'd take it as such. The only reason I give it to them is because I don't have a reason for why there's flowers there other than Aerith. I give them that it's Aerith and I understand why they view it as love... disagree of course...

Again if you have an explanation, I'll listen.

No, are those people even still there?
Try quoting something new like Aerith being like the virgin Mary because of the lilies she carries...

And for the last time it's NOT I repeat NOT a Clerith hint. NOT NOT NOT A CLERITH HINT

It's a nod to Aerith, and that's all it is. If they want to see it as Clerith that's fine, I disagree, I understand where they're coming from because they see the whole compilation as Clerith, but I don't think it's a Clerith hint.

I haven't been in this debate as long as you guys have so I don't have the... desire to see the other side as miserable as some of you do. So if one little thing makes them happy, then yay. But really, I don't back their idea that there's little hints here and there and I think I've said that. Nojima and Nomura are not these puzzle masters who drop hints that we're supposed to put together. They tell you straight up what the deal is.

Cloud was happy with Tifa = Cloud was happy with Tifa. Not "Well let's look at this and that and THEN go over what he said with a fine tooth comb"

Cait Sith is rarely correct = Cait Sith is rarely correct. Not "well if we take every single quote about Cait Sith and look at it this way and that way what 'rarely correct' means is that he doesn't answer your questions but is really correct all the time.

But the thing with Dissidia's ending is that it's a clear reference to Aerith. I don't think it's romantic, but if someone out there has seen the entire compilation as Clerith, then I can totally understand why they see the ending as Clerith. And really it's not even a hint, it's a "HERE'S FLOWERS TO SHOW YOU CLOUD LOVES AERITH CAUSE WE'VE DONE THAT THE WHOLE COMPILATION IS SHOWN YOU CLOUD LOVES AERITH AND HERE'S MORE STUFFS!"... not really a hint.

The stuff I really don't like is the thing about ribbons and what not...

"Even if, for the sake of argument, you were to concede that ending as one point for CloudxAerith, the ball game is still a shut-out."

THANK YOU

 

[Dashell]

oh that's why you wanted me to wait
Thanks Tres XD

BTW when I said I had to give them that one... thing or whatever, I just mean I can't really counter it with anything except "I disagree" and that wouldn't really hold up in a debate.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

BTW when I said I had to give them that one... thing or whatever, I just mean I can't really counter it with anything except "I disagree" and that wouldn't really hold up in a debate.

Just quote what I said about it. Symbol of atonement for Cloud.

In fact, defer to me on everything and you'll always come out ahead.

 

[Vendel]

Actually, it was:

No Tres. It wasn't. Myself and Bella saw it clearly.

Q can point out time and time again that she disagrees with the pinkers PoV on Dissidia and the like. But by conceding it she is contradicting herself.

She admitted she was doing this.

I don't care how many times you voice your opposition to something. If you go along with it in the end, it really is so much talk.

 

[Isabella]

Their argument wouldn't hold up in a debate either, so I guess you'd be at a standstill.

 

[Dashell]

Q can point out time and time again that she disagrees with the pinkers PoV on Dissidia and the like. But by conceding it she is contradicting herself.

Like I said, I still disagree I just can't prove otherwise

I can't adapt your viewpoint that flowers =/= Aerith. I just can't, I'd like to... hell I went through a phase where I turned away every piece of Clerith evidence.. I even used that stupid "CoLW is third person limited so we only know Aerith's feelings!" BS, but the truth is I have to stay true to myself and my arguments.. and well.... you have flowers and you have FFVII, you have Aerith. I didn't have an explanation as to why it happened... but Tres gave a good one and I think I can go with that.

Their argument wouldn't hold up in a debate either, so I guess you'd be at a standstill.

Fair enough

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

No Tres. It wasn't. Myself and Bella saw it clearly.

Dude, I just quoted her. XD

Q can point out time and time again that she disagrees with the pinkers PoV on Dissidia and the like. But by conceding it she is contradicting herself.

She's debating it with you, though, not them -- and you know what she means, because she explained herself.

She admitted she was doing this.

More like, she admitted that she didn't know how else to counter that point, but was saying, "Okay, let's say you have that. How does that stack up against everything for Cloti? Not so well? Yeah, exactly."

I don't care how many times you voice your opposition to something. If you go along with it in the end, it really is so much talk.

In fairness, I don't think I've ever seen her debate Dissidia with anyone but you and Isabella. But, again, she's not going along with it in the end, because she's taking an appeal to volume of evidence when she says, "Who cares if you let them have Dissidia's ending."

 

[Dashell]

Quexinos debate thread

 

[Isabella]

As for all flowers = Clerith, the only way to even begin to support such a claim is to prove Cloud is in love with Aerith. Until they can set that in stone, it's just the usual circular logic at work. It's not hard to call them on that.

 

[Vendel]

She's debating it with you, though, not them -- and you know what she means, because she explained herself.

If she explained it so completely then why has this gone on for page upon page?

More like, she admitted that she didn't know how else to counter that point, but was saying, "Okay, let's say you have that. How does that stack up against everything for Cloti? Not so well? Yeah, exactly."

Again I must point out that it has been pointed out multiple times the idea of "hints" in the compilation is a silly notion that needs to be fought at every turn.

In fairness, I don't think I've ever seen her debate Dissidia with anyone but you and Isabella.

Yes, because she has conceded the point to the pinkers.