LTD, round 3: This time, we settle it with Jello Wrestling

[Dashell]

Yes, because she has conceded the point to the pinkers.

yeah well I can just say what Tres says now... or you no, not care, because I really don't see the harm in letting them have one tiny little thing... except that it pisses you off so

SO I SAY LET THEM HAVE IT

 

[Vendel]

yeah well I can just say what Tres says now... or you no, not care, because I really don't see the harm in letting them have one tiny little thing... except that it pisses you off so

SO I SAY LET THEM HAVE IT

Hush Q. Me and Tres are talking about you.

 

[Dashell]

Sorry, please continue

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

If she explained it so completely then why has this gone on for page upon page?

Because you're all as resilient as Cleriths.

Again I must point out that it has been pointed out multiple times the idea of "hints" in the compilation is a silly notion that needs to be fought at every turn.

But no one's advocating that. She's just saying that if you took either a quantitative and qualitative approach to the LTD, Cloti is more supported by miles.

Yes, because she has conceded the point to the pinkers.

Well, I just gave her a means by which not to concede, and she plans to use this weapon.

 

[Vendel]

Because you're all as resilient as Cleriths.

I will thank you for not comparing me to them.

 

[Isabella]

I've been trying to put my finger on why such a concession bothers me and I think it comes down to this: it treats this debate as a scavenger hunt. Whoever collects the most love clues wins the prize. You'll let them have one love clue because you've got four others squirreled away in a basket somewhere.

That's simply not how analysis works, as I'm sure you all know. The very thought gets under my intellectual skin.

 

[Homura Akemi]

The last time I was here there were 22 pages now there is 31, every ones turned into cleriths....what have I missed

 

[Dashell]

I've been trying to put my finger on why such a concession bothers me and I think it comes down to this: it treats this debate as a scavenger hunt. Whoever collects the most love clues wins the prize.

Well shit, then we're definitely gonna win

You'll let them have one love clue because you've got four others squirreled away in a basket somewhere.

Uh try about 50. Also what I said above, I didn't really know how to counter it, but I like what Tres says... which is why we have these consultations

every ones turned into cleriths.

Apparently a lot because no one turned into a Clerith.


no for realz going to bed this time...

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I will thank you for not comparing me to them.

I was just quoting Kuja. Oh, wait, he was talking about Oglops.

I've been trying to put my finger on why such a concession bothers me and I think it comes down to this: it treats this debate as a scavenger hunt. Whoever collects the most love clues wins the prize. You'll let them have one love clue because you've got four others squirreled away in a basket somewhere.

That's simply not how analysis works, as I'm sure you all know. The very thought gets under my intellectual skin.

It bothers me too, but that's how the LTD has always been done. It was always a zero-sum game.

In any case, it doesn't have to be. Que now has the tools to go out and face the world.

She knows now how to counter that argument -- and as we all also know:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9UawGGWTg0#t=24s

 

[Homura Akemi]

this could go on forever...Well I THIS is the love triangle debate

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Everyone can equip the great gospel.
There is no item called princess guard. There are, however, Godhand and Premium Heart.

According to one of the guides Quex linked:

-Princess Guard : ƒvƒŠƒ“ƒZƒXƒK￾[ƒh-
Stats: HP +220, ATK +43, DEF +2
Level: 67
Effect(s): Magic Damage +15%.
>Shop: Trade with Flame Rod x1, Opal x3,
Purple Gem x1 & 20,160 Gil.

That's the Crown Scepter, so Princess Guard *is* in the game, just with the botched Translatation. Or as I call it, "it got the Puppeteer Wheel treatment".

And yes there's a "Great Gospel" Accessory, though it's not exclusive to Cloud.

Rosa, quite bluntly, is the first romantic interest of a main character in FF history and WIFE of Cecil Harvey. How many callouts did she get in Dissidia? JACK.

You could argue in favor of Saint's Dive - formed in TAY by Banding Kain's jump with Rosa's magic.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

So... everyone unscathed? We all set with Flowers can mean 'Flower Girl' but not Flowers=Wanna sex?

And I'm with Bella on the hording love nuggets (and why does that sound s dirty?) approach to compilation. It's pathetic and I refuse to counter "yeah well Dissidia has flowers" with anything other than "compilation".

And I didn't take the flowers as a nod to Aerith--directly. I saw them as Cloud making his way to find forgiveness. And yes, he believes he can only achieve that through absolution--from the very PEOPLE he failed to save.

Aerith is Cloud's greatest failure--not his greatest love.

 

[Madame Mayor]

Again I must point out that it has been pointed out multiple times the idea of "hints" in the compilation is a silly notion that needs to be fought at every turn.

QFT.

Okay, so you were able to say why Aerith is slightly relevant in Dissidia, but then you have to prove why that interpretation is more valid than the more direct in-game reference.

To quote Ryu:

And seriously, as I said, Flowers already have an express internal narrative significance. External significance is just reaching.

 

[Ryushikaze]

ANd I keep having to repeat that but it's not getting through.

I'm not saying you're doing it. I'm just saying it because it needs to be said.

yeah well I can just say what Tres says now... or you no, not care, because I really don't see the harm in letting them have one tiny little thing... except that it pisses you off so

SO I SAY LET THEM HAVE IT

'Letting them have this tiny little thing' does more than give them a 'love nugget' it throws a massive tangent at the end of Cloud's narrative at the end of Dissidia, and ignores the internal significance of those flowers to give them one that's contrary both to that and to the narrative theme established in the compilation, as Tres has outlined.

I've been trying to put my finger on why such a concession bothers me and I think it comes down to this: it treats this debate as a scavenger hunt. Whoever collects the most love clues wins the prize. You'll let them have one love clue because you've got four others squirreled away in a basket somewhere.

That's simply not how analysis works, as I'm sure you all know. The very thought gets under my intellectual skin.

Yeah, it's not about a scoreboard, even though we sometimes use that analogy, it's about making consistent narrative themes. And this concession (and not granting them the point for sake of discussion) both treats the analysis like a point based game and makes the narrative inconsistent in its themes.

I was just quoting Kuja. Oh, wait, he was talking about Oglops.

We've discovered something. Vendel is an Oglop.

It bothers me too, but that's how the LTD has always been done. It was always a zero-sum game.

I typically try and focus on the whole of the narrative in my arguments, instead of tiny little points in isolation. You don't get a good idea of the overall narrative flow that way.

In any case, it doesn't have to be. Que now has the tools to go out and face the world.

She knows now how to counter that argument -- and as we all also know:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9UawGGWTg0#t=24s

G.I. Quexinos. A real American oddball.

According to one of the guides Quex linked:

That's the Crown Scepter, so Princess Guard *is* in the game, just with the botched Translatation. Or as I call it, "it got the Puppeteer Wheel treatment".

Ah. Well, Cloud still can't use it.

And yes there's a "Great Gospel" Accessory, though it's not exclusive to Cloud.

It's also not that good, IMHO.

You could argue in favor of Saint's Dive - formed in TAY by Banding Kain's jump with Rosa's magic.

You could, but that's still sharing her only reference with kain, and not appearing, unlike Rydia. My point that the lack or presence of reference means nothing to the existing romance.

A side story should not fundamentally change the understanding of the main narrative. It should add to it in a way so that even if no one sees the story, the narrative still makes perfect sense.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

A side story should not fundamentally change the understanding of the main narrative. It should add to it in a way so that even if no one sees the story, the narrative still makes perfect sense.

Well, Mako made a point that Cecil being able to shift between DK and Paladin may be due to Cecil finally accepting and re-absorbing his dark side in TAY. As well, if Dissidia takes place after TAY, it explains why Cecil and Golby are on better terms in Dissidia than at the end of FF4 - they've had a game in-between to patch things up (more or less).

 

[Ryushikaze]

Well, Mako made a point that Cecil being able to shift between DK and Paladin may be due to Cecil finally accepting and re-absorbing his dark side in TAY. As well, if Dissidia takes place after TAY, it explains why Cecil and Golby are on better terms in Dissidia than at the end of FF4 - they've had a game in-between to patch things up (more or less).

Valid point, but what I'm talking about is along the lines that we shouldn't need Dissidia to understand their situation in their original games, it should expand upon, but not alter the situation as we understand it.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Okay, so you were able to say why Aerith is slightly relevant in Dissidia, but then you have to prove why that interpretation is more valid than the more direct in-game reference.

To quote Ryu:

And seriously, as I said, Flowers already have an express internal narrative significance. External significance is just reaching.

That's the thing: I'm not saying that the interpretation I provided is more valid than the in-game references. I'm saying that the internal references and the external references are both what lead to "Cloud's dream is atonement, and this is represented by the flowers."

Yeah, it's not about a scoreboard, even though we sometimes use that analogy, it's about making consistent narrative themes. And this concession (and not granting them the point for sake of discussion) both treats the analysis like a point based game and makes the narrative inconsistent in its themes.

...

I typically try and focus on the whole of the narrative in my arguments, instead of tiny little points in isolation. You don't get a good idea of the overall narrative flow that way.

This I agree with.

That said, I don't feel that Que has committed an egregious error here given that the people she is used to debating with treat the LTD as a scoreboard-based game. It's not approached as a matter of narrative themes by many.

A side story should not fundamentally change the understanding of the main narrative. It should add to it in a way so that even if no one sees the story, the narrative still makes perfect sense.

I agree.

Well, Mako made a point that Cecil being able to shift between DK and Paladin may be due to Cecil finally accepting and re-absorbing his dark side in TAY. As well, if Dissidia takes place after TAY, it explains why Cecil and Golby are on better terms in Dissidia than at the end of FF4 - they've had a game in-between to patch things up (more or less).

I'm convinced that The After Years is post-Dissidia. Remember this exchange in Dissidia between Cecil and his brother?:

Golbez: "I was summoned by Chaos. That alone is a sign of my heart's weakness.
I've no right to be near you."

[Golbez begins walking away again. Cecil runs after him]
Cecil: "Please wait..."

[Cecil stops]
Cecil: "Brother!"

[Golbez stops again]
Cecil: "Do you not care what I believe? Because I believe in you. You can fight and win against yourself. I know you can!"
Golbez: "Cecil..."
Cecil: "And you and I, we also have a bond between us! I swear that I will never lose. So please, when the time comes... Please join me and my friends--
Golbez: "My brother, you are too kind-hearted to be a knight."

[Cecil sighs]
Golbez: "But maybe, someday... If the light should smile upon me..."

This would seem to foreshadow Golbez fighting alongside Cecil and his friends later on, in TAY. During Dissidia, Golbez was still down on himself for being tied to the darkness somehow, and didn't feel worthy to fight alongside his brother yet.

 

[Dashell]

Just one more thing to add... something I've realized when I'm debating is that I can't use someone else's argument and still feel good about myself, especially if I don't agree with it. I used that "third person limited" argument about CoLW before, and I hate it. And I hate that I did that, it wasn't staying true to myself. I believed that the flowers in Dissidia's ending were a shout out to Aerith and I was going to stand by it, even though I didn't have a counter argument for it and even though I'd have to let Cleriths have that point or however you want to put it.

But I guess that's really what debating is all about, trying to convince the other side they're wrong Also I can totally see how this has gone on for 12 years.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Just one more thing to add... something I've realized when I'm debating is that I can't use someone else's argument and still feel good about myself, especially if I don't agree with it. I used that "third person limited" argument about CoLW before, and I hate it.

... But it IS in third person limited.

And I hate that I did that, it wasn't staying true to myself. I believed that the flowers in Dissidia's ending were a shout out to Aerith and I was going to stand by it, even though I didn't have a counter argument for it and even though I'd have to let Cleriths have that point or however you want to put it.

They can be, but only as a secondary reference to their internal significance.

But I guess that's really what debating is all about, trying to convince the other side they're wrong Also I can totally see how this has gone on for 12 years.

Debating is about an exchange of ideas in an attempt to establish points, refine them, and hopefully, find something close to the truth and convince onlookers of such.

 

[Dashell]

... But it IS in third person limited.

Yes, yes it is, but I don't like the whole, "It's third person limited and only shows Aerith's feelings/Aerith is delusional" argument. It just doesn't sit well with me...

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Just one more thing to add... something I've realized when I'm debating is that I can't use someone else's argument and still feel good about myself, especially if I don't agree with it. I used that "third person limited" argument about CoLW before, and I hate it. And I hate that I did that, it wasn't staying true to myself. I believed that the flowers in Dissidia's ending were a shout out to Aerith and I was going to stand by it, even though I didn't have a counter argument for it and even though I'd have to let Cleriths have that point or however you want to put it.

Like I always say -- "To thine own self be true."

Shakespeare was on to something.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Yes, yes it is, but I don't like the whole, "It's third person limited and only shows Aerith's feelings/Aerith is delusional" argument. It just doesn't sit well with me...

But again, it IS just Aerith's feelings, and the 'Aerith is delusional' is only in response to the people insisting on the 'in a relationship' part of Koibito, something Cloud categorically never was with Aerith.

 

[Isabella]

That said, I don't feel that Que has committed an egregious error here given that the people she is used to debating with treat the LTD as a scoreboard-based game. It's not approached as a matter of narrative themes by many.

And this is why the debate has dragged on for 12 years. Some people are trying to play chess on the same board where others are playing checkers. Thank god for Ryu and the others who understand the concept of narrative consistency. I'd go mad otherwise. XD

 

[Vendel]

And this is why the debate has dragged on for 12 years. Some people are trying to play chess on the same board where others are playing checkers. Thank god for Ryu and the others who understand the concept of narrative consistency. I'd go mad otherwise. XD

You are not alone bella. I...we're here for you right?

 

[Celes Chere]

You are not alone bella. I...we're here for you right?

If you see a few Cleriths starting to ship VenniexIsa, don't be surprised.