LTD, round 3: This time, we settle it with Jello Wrestling

[Tennyo]

@Ryu: Oh, you mean the fact that they feel threatened by the fact that you are right?

@Syneiam: I was wondering if that was the case.

 

[Carlie]

lol Is everyone on Mod preview in the terms section? Because I certainly am.

I've always been on mod preview

 

[Death Sin]

Well, not trying to play the Devil's advocate here (nor I think I should to begin with since every forum has its own mod policy and that should be respected) but since that particular forum seems to be organized mainly in prol of two different factions (Cloti and Clerith) you have to understand that the mods/administrators from both sides are prone to suffer a ton of pressure from their respective player base and, well, as a forum administrator myself, I must say that it can sometimes be quite an... ingrate task. I'm not saying that if there's evidence of preferencial treatment going on and injustice towards board members, those shouldn't be brought up but, in the fairness of debate, they should be kept aside from the plot discussions themselves and be dealt either with or between the forum staff themselves. Why do I say this? Well, because its very easy to sometimes mix board policies with the actual topic (s) of discussion and that, IMHO, can lead to loss of objectivity. I'm not saying that's what happens in here, mind you, but I do think its something everyone should remember, none of the less.

I've also known Shroud since the days of our Northen Crater debates on GFaqs ages ago (that's from where the name of the boards originally comes from) and back then he was quite a reasonable and cordial fellow despite us not agreeing in quite some stuff. Then again, people change so I really can't speak about recent events, especially since I haven't been directly involved in them. What I know, however, if that there appears to be a bit of "bad blood" and distrust from both sides of the fence here and unless both sides are willing to put that besides them, things will never change and that, IMHO, is the bigggest loss here.

I don't know, but perhaps now that we have our definitive answer, maybe the Cloud/Tifa fans can give the example and maturely extend their hands and be willing to let bygones to be bygones? I would like to think its possible so what say you all?

 

[Fairheartstrife]

I don't know, but perhaps now that we have our definitive answer, maybe the Cloud/Tifa fans can give the example and maturely extend their hands and be willing to let bygones to be bygones? I would like to think its possible so what say you all?

Fuck that, I'm doing my Cloti victory dance in the face of their abject denial.

It's not a matter of bygones being bygones, it's a matter of denial in the face of fact, and 'mod control' and 'power-trips' as a way to try and wrest control away from something they ultimately have no control over.

To quote Jack Nicholson: They can't handle the truth.

 

[Tennyo]

@Death Sin: Bygones be bygones only works when both sides are willing to accept that. I'd certainly be willing to if the other side wouldn't make things up that go against the actual story and then insult us for not believing them.

 

[Death Sin]

To quote Jack Nicholson: They can't handle the truth.

Saddly, yes, its quite likely that some might refuse to acknowledge factual truth even if its presented in all sorts of forms before their very eyes... I suppose the power of fandom can go beyond the point of common sense in some cases but, hopefully, that will only be applied to a very small minority of the FF7 fanbase. It's still a shame that it happens, though.


PS: Oh, and to make my previous post a bit more clear, when I mention Cloud/Aerith fans, I mean all the CxA fans as a whole, not just the people from the CxA forums. Not really the same thing, IMHO.

 

[Ryushikaze]

@Ryu: Oh, you mean the fact that they feel threatened by the fact that you are right?

Pretty much, yes.

Well, not trying to play the Devil's advocate here (nor I think I should to begin with since every forum has its own mod policy and that should be respected) but since that particular forum seems to be organized mainly in prol of two different factions (Cloti and Clerith) you have to understand that the mods/administrators from both sides are prone to suffer a ton of pressure from their respective player base and, well, as a forum administrator myself, I must say that it can sometimes be quite an... ingrate task. I'm not saying that if there's evidence of preferencial treatment going on and injustice towards board members, those shouldn't be brought up but, in the fairness of debate, they should be kept aside from the plot discussions themselves and be dealt either with or between the forum staff themselves. Why do I say this? Well, because its very easy to sometimes mix board policies with the actual topic (s) of discussion and that, IMHO, can lead to loss of objectivity. I'm not saying that's what happens in here, mind you, but I do think its something everyone should remember, none of the less.

The board's policies as a whole are flawed and designed to fail. That's without the rampant bias.

I've also known Shroud since the days of our Northen Crater debates on GFaqs ages ago (that's from where the name of the boards originally comes from) and back then he was quite a reasonable and cordial fellow despite us not agreeing in quite some stuff. Then again, people change so I really can't speak about recent events, especially since I haven't been directly involved in them. What I know, however, if that there appears to be a bit of "bad blood" and distrust from both sides of the fence here and unless both sides are willing to put that besides them, things will never change and that, IMHO, is the bigggest loss here.

I have ALSO known shroudy since my days on Gamefaqs, and I found him just as disingenuous and slimy then as I do now.

I don't know, but perhaps now that we have our definitive answer, maybe the Cloud/Tifa fans can give the example and maturely extend their hands and be willing to let bygones to be bygones? I would like to think its possible so what say you all?

DS, the olive branch has been extended again and again only to be snapped repeatedly by nonsense and libel.

Speaking of... I repost this statement from TnC where I expect it will vanish.

Trolling aside... what Shroudy is doing now is the same exact thing Anastar is doing. And believe it or not it's the same thing Ryushikaze's doing and the same thing I'm doing and the same thing pretty much everyone involved right now is doing.

Trying to prevent another koibito.
I mean am I right or wrong that neither side wants that?

Koibito is only one side's fiasco. Because only one side held a three year campaign to champion utter bollocks only to to abandon it as soon as it became favorable to the conclusion they wanted.

Even if both sides are at fault, they are not equally at fault.
"It means XYZ. Well, it also means XY, but really that makes no real different here so for the sake of simplification it's XYZ." is not the same as "It means ABC! And it doesn't mean anything unless it's in lowercase! Wait? We can use it to our advantage? IT MEANS XYZ then!"

So bring on another 'Koibito', because even if both sides are in the poop on that one, one's got their foot in it, and the other has it on their face.
I will repost this elsewhere so it does not simply vanish.

Bringing this back to extending the Olive Branch, yes, I will extend it. To the vast majority, as I have always done.
But there are some people who have entirely worn out their chances. And those will be held accountable for their bullshit.

 

[Death Sin]

That whole "koibito" thing still baffles me, seriously. Anyway...

Bringing this back to extending the Olive Branch, yes, I will extend it. To the vast majority, as I have always done.
But there are some people who have entirely worn out their chances. And those will be held accountable for their bullshit.

Ryu, I completely see your point and although its a bit sad, I cannot say that I don't understand where you are coming from. Still, as I said before, hopefully the endless denial and BS will be limited only to a small few and not generalized to either side of the fandom. As for those selected few, well, its hard to keep any sort of credibility when trying to go against hard, factual evidence and that holds true to both sides here so they'll only be deluding themselves and no one else there. In the end its their loss, really...

 

[Fighter]

I find it utterly baffling how they can even dare to mention "koibito" and "flip-flopping" with a straight face.

First they argued for years that koibito means "sweet person" or "one who loves" and made up fake Japanese interviews in fictional restaurants then once it was mentioned for Aerith and Cloud they immediately accepted our stance on the word and accused us of "flip-flopping".

Someone tell me how that makes any sense whatsoever.

 

[Ryushikaze]

That whole "koibito" thing still baffles me, seriously. Anyway...

Koibito is japanese for 'desired person' and is used commonly in the sense of boyfriend/ girlfriend, or lover, and also, though not as prevalently as 'beloved'
For three years, those few people who have worn out their chances asserted, as hard as they could, including with fake affidavits, that is simply meant 'one who loved', that it didn't have meaning when written in kanji, and all sorts of utter bollocks.
Then Aerith uses it to refer to Cloud, and not only does it mean 'lover' again, but Aerith also holds the absolute truth.
The worst that can be said of the C/T side regarding Koibito is an oversimplification of the definition, since in either case it meant no difference to the overall context of a quote.

Ryu, I completely see your point and although its a bit sad, I cannot say that I don't understand where you are coming from. Still, as I said before, hopefully the endless denial and BS will be limited only to a small few and not generalized to either side of the fandom. As for those selected few, well, its hard to keep any sort of credibility when trying to go against hard, factual evidence and that holds true to both sides here so they'll only be deluding themselves and no one else there. In the end its their loss, really...

It is. And I have to say, their reaction to this latest is exactly that sort of thing. Destiny Failed already has an excerpt of their outright denial. I can only assume greater nonsense to come out as the full enormity sinks in...

 

[Death Sin]

Koibito is japanese for 'desired person' and is used commonly in the sense of boyfriend/ girlfriend, or lover, and also, though not as prevalently as 'beloved'
For three years, those few people who have worn out their chances asserted, as hard as they could, including with fake affidavits, that is simply meant 'one who loved', that it didn't have meaning when written in kanji, and all sorts of utter bollocks.
Then Aerith uses it to refer to Cloud, and not only does it mean 'lover' again, but Aerith also holds the absolute truth.
The worst that can be said of the C/T side regarding Koibito is an oversimplification of the definition, since in either case it meant no difference to how the overall context of a quote.

Oh, I am well aware of that (sorry if I wasn't clear enough in my last post). What I meant was that I'm still baffled how the usage and meaning of the koibito word could be twisted to such leights just because it went against some people's favored pairing. And I say this mostly because the usage of the word and the meaning behind it was fairly direct and in context, even moreso when you consider all the story behind Cloud and Tifa's relationship in the Compilation.

As for the CxA whole backpedellng when CoL: White came out, yeah, not cool. At the very least, if they are to be considered, both uses of the word "koibito" should be held on equal grounds, not just if if favors your pairing. Still, even if the word holds the same meaning in both cases, let's not forget the context here. In CoL: White, you have Aerith's perspective only but what about Cloud's? It's definitely kinda different from the Nomura quote where he mentions Tifa as being someone's "koibito/lover/girlfriend... and who does Tifa openly states that she loves? Yeah, nuff said, right?

It is. And I have to say, their reaction to this latest is exactly that sort of thing. Destiny Failed already has an excerpt of their outright denial. I can only assume greater nonsense to come out as the full enormity sinks in...

You mean the whole "sex does not mean love" thing, right? Yeah... Cloud is definitely an egotistic, heartless bastard. In fact, that's how he's always been depicted in the Compilation and... oh, wait, that's completely untrue and utterly butchers Cloud's character. Again: not cool.

 

[Fighter]

Their argument for us backpedaling as I understand it is this: "You always said it means lover and now you are saying 'beloved'"

Which is not true.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I have quotes of me saying it can mean beloved from well before COL came out, nevermind translated, so yeah, if there was 'backpedaling', it definitely happened pre COL, and not in response to it.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Most of the Ultimania guides I have are just huge masses of data arranged in a pretty fashion, spruced up with official art and screenshots, so if the translator were to play the "But why would Cloud/Tifa be shown in the Highwind scene with all the other famous [canon] FF couples?" then one could feasibly blame the Ultimania editor/designer.

wat.

 

[Madame Mayor]

Destiny Failed already has an excerpt of their outright denial.

Speaking of DesFailed, FFG is nuts.

http://destinyfailed.blogspot.com/2010/01/cry-for-help-from-final-fantasy-goddess.html

 

[Fighter]

I have quotes of me saying it can mean beloved from well before COL came out, nevermind translated, so yeah, if there was 'backpedaling', it definitely happened pre COL, and not in response to it.

It's unfortunate that ACF is gone forever. Because there were quotes of everyone saying it. I've said it dozens of times. "Beloved, one who is loved, object of affection" - these definitions were mentioned multiple times.

I had a Japanese dictionary quote in my sig for many months with a certain comment (unfortunately I no longer have the link).

Paraphrasing the translation was: koibito = one who is loved; one side of a couple.

And as someone brought to my attention once, Zee (Zelda then), who comes here sometimes, joked about the very thing on their very own pink forum.

So before accusing us of backpedaling get your story straight.

 

[Celes Chere]

So, how long until Tres gets de-modded do you think?

And I can't believe TENNY is on Mod Preview. She's the nicest member there hands down!

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Speaking of DesFailed, FFG is nuts.

http://destinyfailed.blogspot.com/2010/01/cry-for-help-from-final-fantasy-goddess.html

Holy fucking batshit insane, Batman!

 

[Death Sin]

It's unfortunate that ACF is gone forever. Because there were quotes of everyone saying it. I've said it dozens of times. "Beloved, one who is loved, object of affection" - these definitions were mentioned multiple times.

I don't doubt at all what you said because I do remember browsing ACF and seeing that mentioned quite a few times myself. I honestly don't think there was any "backpedaling" from the Cloud/Tifa side (at least that I ever noticed) and the arguments about the word "koibito" and its usage on both instances have been both grammatically explained and supported by FF7's narrative/context. Of course, the same can't be said about some Cloud/Aerith supporters...

I remember those people changing some of their views/explanations about the usage of koibito before CoL came out (at least that I noticed back then, so I can easily be wrong, lol) but I definitely remember to see their stance taking a complete turn when CoL: White came into the picture.. Of course that wouldn't have been something negative if these so called fans held both usages (regarding Tifa in the Nomura quote and regarding Aerith in CoL. Of course, there would still be the matter of context and the way the word was used but, as important as that may be, its a bit besides the point) of the word in equal regard...but, alas, that was not the case as everyone here knows better than I do.

Speaking of DesFailed, FFG is nuts.

http://destinyfailed.blogspot.com/20...y-goddess.html

Ok (and I mean this is the most respectful way possible) someone please tell me FFG was being sarcastic and/or joking when she said all of that. I mean, wow... just, wow...

 

[looneymoon]

Who actually runs the DestinyFailed site? Or are they just anonymous?

 

[Tennyo]

Speaking of DesFailed, FFG is nuts.

http://destinyfailed.blogspot.com/2010/01/cry-for-help-from-final-fantasy-goddess.html

HOLY FLIP!

How can someone have everything so incredibly backwards? OUR version of Cloud is the jackass who strings her along?! Excuse me?

But I do have to admit, that DesFailed post has some bad grammar. Please someone fix it.

So, how long until Tres gets de-modded do you think?

And I can't believe TENNY is on Mod Preview. She's the nicest member there hands down!

Only Mod Preview for the "Terms" section of the site. The rest of the site I seem to be able to post in freely.

I don't even know when this happened. Nobody has said anything to me as of yet.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Who actually runs the DestinyFailed site? Or are they just anonymous?

Anon as far as I know, although some of us have our hunches.

 

[Lonewolf]

Holy fucking batshit insane, Batman!

Can't say it to her face, so you have to resort to this in pack behavior?

I'm impressed...

 

[null]

Nobody puts Baby in a corner!

 

[Fighter]

Fight! Fight! Fight!