LTD Who did Aerith love?

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal

That doesn't change the fact Cloud's still being referenced as a symbol of a different, overarching character.

If Cloud is her beloved, he has to be symbolic of another individual who was her beloved before, in order to fit the sentence's structure and statement of him being a symbol of said beloved or something "important to her." You can't argue that the symbolic predicate of the sentence is in a vacuum or something "tacked on."
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
That doesn't change the fact Cloud's still being referenced as a symbol of a different, overarching character.

If Cloud is her beloved, he has to be symbolic of another individual who was her beloved before
Makes sense... see I THOUGHT you were trying to say that Aerith didn't love Cloud or something like that. I think I didn't make my initial point clear either...I didn't mean Cloud was the only one she loved, I''m sure she loves Zack as well, I just think she likes Cloud more


all though I think I need to stop that since the texts say otherwise :(

Crisis Core keywords :kermit:
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Makes sense... see I THOUGHT you were trying to say that Aerith didn't love Cloud or something like that. I think I didn't make my initial point clear either...I didn't mean Cloud was the only one she loved, I''m sure she loves Zack as well, I just think she likes Cloud more


all though I think I need to stop that since the texts say otherwise :(

Crisis Core keywords :kermit:

So if you think she likes Cloud more, please explain. But don't try and use Lifestream White as your basis cause it doesn't say anything of the sort.

Yeah, the game CC and its materials kinda drive home just how much Zack meant to her then, and in FFVII til her death. She likes Cloud, but I think one would be hard pressed to find any evidence that weighs as much as all of the sledgehammer symbolism that exists that ties Zack and Aerith together.
 

Vendel

Banned
I have pointed out before in other threads and mako pointed this out. Aerith is thinking about Cloud because of what Sephy is doing in the lifestream. She is trying to protect the planet. And in doing so she starts to worry. And she is most worried about Cloud because of him. So Cloud is her symbol of everything that she is trying to protect.

Just like Aerith is a symbol of Cloud's failures/sins. Or better yet Denzel represents redemption for Cloud. Would Clouds PoV go something like this?

"Denzil was Clouds hometown, his mother, Aerith and Zack--A symbol of all he wanted redemption for."
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Gah, this discussion poisons The Lifestream too.

To me, there's two obvious ways to read "symbol" in this line. One calls for Cloud being representative of other things that are important to Aerith without necessarily being so himself. That is, at its most basic meaning, what a "symbol" is.

I don't think anyone's taking that reading, though.

The other way calls for Cloud being an example or even a summary of what's important to Aerith. I think this is how "symbol" is being used in this line, and also how it's usually used.

In much the same way that Aerith is a symbol of Cloud's guilt. She isn't arbitrarily so, the way "symbol" is used by definition -- the way that the wolf symbol Cloud wears is symbolic of his self-imposed loneliness. There's obviously no real connection between the two things.

If I'm not being clear, Aerith isn't a symbol of Cloud's guilt in the literal sense, being a detached representative without a tactile connection to his guilt. She, instead, summarizes and exemplifies his guilt.

As a symbol of his guilt, she summarizes all that he feels guilt for.

In much the same way, I read the line from Case of the Lifestream White as saying that Cloud is a summary of what's important to Aerith. As I read it, Cloud is being called her friend and koibito, and his status then makes him a symbol of what's important to her.

In other words, the way the line comes across for me is that the part before the dash explains the part following the dash, and the part following the dash summarizes the part before.

As in: "My car is my means of going to work, my tool for getting to the store -- a symbol of my ability to travel to faraway places."

I have pointed out before in other threads and mako pointed this out. Aerith is thinking about Cloud because of what Sephy is doing in the lifestream. She is trying to protect the planet. And in doing so she starts to worry. And she is most worried about Cloud because of him. So Cloud is her symbol of everything that she is trying to protect.

Just like Aerith is a symbol of Cloud's failures/sins. Or better yet Denzel represents redemption for Cloud. Would Clouds PoV go something like this?

"Denzil was Clouds hometown, his mother, Aerith and Zack--A symbol of all he wanted redemption for."

I don't think that's a good example. Denzel obviously couldn't literally be Cloud's hometown, his mother, Aerith or Zack. Cloud literally is Aerith's friend and koibito.

Going back to the car example I used, the car is not a symbol of my means of going to work or to the store. It literally is my tool for doing those things, and its status as such explains its capacity to be a summary of my ability to travel to faraway places.

Likewise, I believe the line being analyzed should be read such that Cloud -- as Aerith's friend and koibito -- is a summary of what's important to her.

What's important to her isn't just limited to that, obviously, but, then, Cloud's guilt isn't limited to Aerith, and my ability to travel to faraway places isn't limited to my car.

There could be a number of symbols for what's important to Aerith, or for my ability to travel -- and there are a number of symbols of Cloud's guilt (Zack, the wolf, Aerith, etc.). Certain qualities of those things are what cause them to be symbols of his guilt, however.

In the case of this line from Case of the Lifestream White, Cloud's qualities as Aerith's friend and koibito cause him to be a symbol/summary/example of what's important to Aerith.
 
Last edited:

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Of course, using the exact same sentence structure for 'The wolf was failure, uselessness- it was a symbol of every mistake he'd made, of how low a person he was' gives us the 'that which comes before is an example of what the subject symbolizes' idea.

It's a bit vaguer with the other example, but it more awkward to read the symbol as 'something else in the list' rather than 'the group the former list is a part of'

It's also kind of strange as the only time post mortem Aerith's feelings for the boy are anything but concern, or 'like a mother' or something similar. So even if it IS her saying she loves Cloud, she apparently gets over it to be with Zack, who is 'always by her side' etc. etc.

Still, I still see no problem with saying Aerith loved both. The heart is irrational, and she obviously wasn't over Zack- she was trying, but wasn't- up until right before her death.
 

trash panda

---m(O.O)gle---
AKA
Howl
Wtf, I come back the next day and I have to read three pages of this gobldegook before I reply! :ego:

Thank you MakoEyes, I'm glad you have a logical mind. I read like ten different posts that referenced the term "symbolism". It should have only been said once, serially.

Ryushikaze, I see exactly what people mean when they say that Aerith loves either Cloud or Zack in a motherly way. Different people have a different understanding of the term "motherly", but the term makes sense. Like you said, Aerith is in a constant state of concern for both Cloud and Zack...
 

SoulReaper

Titties 'n' Beer
AKA
Lord_Graf
If she ever realised Cloud's either impotent or ghey (I mean come on, isn't it obvious?) Than she'd obviously love Zack more.
 

Isabella

Your Mom
I think she had feelings for both men, but Quex I disagree with you that she loved Cloud more. She was chasing the shadow of Zack up until nearly the end, and finally acknowledges she's ready to separate the two on the date, shortly before her death. I agree her immediate interest at the point of her death was Cloud, but in the long run, an acute interest over two weeks doesn't hold a candle to years of yearning, 89 letters, denial about his death, etc. It's comparing a long-term love to a short, intense fling and saying the fling is more meaningful because it feels intense in the moment.

As for Zack being by her side, I could be wrong but I believe he wasn't yet, was he? Doesn't the story say she was alone until she started stirring up help?
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
Same here.

I guess I didn't really answer the TC's question. I feel that she loved them both, loving Cloud more during the game, for obvious reasons.
I love how when Tres says it no one questions it :monster:
 

DrakeClawfang

The Wanderer of Time
I think she loved both (dur, does this surprise anyone?). I haven't played CC, but I've read about it and know the effort it does showing the ZackxAerith relationship. However, in Lifestream White (I'll get to the symbolism thing in a moment) and Maiden, even if the latter isn't canon, Aerith is stated to like Cloud more than Zack. And then in FF7 itself, I don't remember the exact quote (I can dig it up if you like), but Aerith mentions Zack as her first boyfriend, and tells Cloud they weren't serious, but she liked him.

So yeah, though I'd have to play CC to understand their bond in full, it's obvious Aerith cared for Zack and likely loved him, hell FF7 told us that long before CC. But there's also evidence to show she cares for Cloud just as much.

As for the symbolism thing, why does Cloud have to symbolize Zack? Cloud symbolizes something, right, okay. Why does it have to be Zack? I always took that to mean Cloud symbolized the party to Aerith It makes more sense than Cloud symbolizing Zack IMO, Aerith want to protect her friends from Sephiroth. Cloud is Sephiroth's archenemy, the leader of the party, and while we can debate if they were in love, he's easily the member of the group Aerith was closest too. So why can't Cloud be seen as symbolizing Aerith's desire to protect her friends?

EDIT - lol! I checked YT for vids of the Gongaga visit, to see what Aerith says about Zack there. If you visit his parents with Tifa but not Aerith in the party, they direct the "were you the girlfriend he mentioned" line to Tifa! ZackxTifa proof?!? :monster:
 
Last edited:

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
Thank you MakoEyes, I'm glad you have a logical mind. I read like ten different posts that referenced the term "symbolism". It should have only been said once, serially.
Since I feel this was directed at me, the ONLY reason I was arguing was because I thought he was trying to say Aerith didn't love Cloud.
 

Isabella

Your Mom
Drake said:
And then in FF7 itself, I don't remember the exact quote (I can dig it up if you like), but Aerith mentions Zack as her first boyfriend, and tells Cloud they weren't serious, but she liked him.
Do you take her at her word? Would you write 89 letters over four years to someone you liked but weren't serious about?

Look, I don't deny she felt something for Cloud during FF7, and it was probably a more intense feeling than what she was feeling for Zack during that period, but can you truly say she loved Cloud more than Zack? Can you even call what she felt actual, true love?
 

looneymoon

they/them
AKA
Rishi
Just want to say this first: this topic is way more interesting than the Aeris/Cloud/Tifa triangle, at least there's some ambuguity here. My short answer to the thread's title: she loved both but in different ways.

I just wanted to offer my reading into the symbol Cloud represents in Case of Lifestream White/Black.

First of, the central figures of each story is Sephiroth and Aeris. Generally speaking, we can say Sephiroth's goal is to destory the planet while Aeris wants to protect it.

Cloud is a common factor in both stories. Both Aeris' and Sephiroth's goals are metaphorically imbued onto Cloud as the focus. Cloud thus is a representation of the planet itself - the thing Sephiroth wants to desotry, the thing Aeris wants to protect.

Looking at the context for motivation of each character makes sense also.
Cloud/Seph relationship: Cloud is the man who humiliated Sephiroth and foiled his plans. Cloud is the representation of all the bitterness and hatred felt in life.
Cloud/Aeris relationship: Before her death, Aeris was starting to move on from the death of her boyfriend for a possible relationship with Cloud. Cloud is both a romantic interest for her, and a close friend for whom she had protective feelings over. Cloud is the representation of all the joys and experiences Aeris experienced and could have experienced in life.
 

Isabella

Your Mom
Looney, just wanted to say I agree 100% with your take on the symbolism thing. That's how I read it as well. I've never seen it as Cloud representing Zack directly. To me that's far too literal.
 

DrakeClawfang

The Wanderer of Time
Do you take her at her word? Would you write 89 letters over four years to someone you liked but weren't serious about?

She made a point of telling him she's not writing Letter #90, sounds like she had given up on him. True, she was probably making light of it, I'm just quoting the game. Maybe she felt scorned or something and wasn't up to talking about it because if I follow the timeline, this 4th letter would have been sent just before FF7, right?. I don't see Aerith as the kind to be bitter like that, but you never know.
 

Isabella

Your Mom
I don't think she's bitter, I think she's in pain. Common sense says she sensed Zack had died and she wasn't quite ready to move past it, though by the time she met Cloud I think she wanted to and was beginning to do so.

One problem I see is a lot of fans view this denial/coping behavior as a weakness and refuse to see Aerith in a "weak" light. But I'm curious how many fans have experienced the death of a boyfriend/girlfriend?
 

Fighter

Pro Adventurer
Aerith practically admits herself that she's been chasing Zack in Cloud during the date scene and it takes her a while to see past the similarity.
 

trash panda

---m(O.O)gle---
AKA
Howl
Since I feel this was directed at me, the ONLY reason I was arguing was because I thought he was trying to say Aerith didn't love Cloud.


Of course she does.
The only thing that didn't make sense to me was the whole implimentation of the word "symbol". It is highly unlikely that something would symbolize itself. Symbols are meant to represent other things. Like, (when we're talking about people, for example), Martin Luther King is a person who symbolizes freedom, and Ghandi is a symbol of peace.

In this case though, Cloud is a symbol of Zack, or the feelings that Aerith had for Zack before Cloud was ever in the picture. First comes the event and then comes the symbol that represents it. Since Zack was Aerith's first boyfriend, and Cloud plays a repetitive, or secondary roll that makes Cloud a symbol of Zack and all of the things that did. :hohum:
 

shenron118

Lurk mode: ON
First off, I want to say Zack. And now, onto the pointless ranting.

In this case though, Cloud is a symbol of Zack, or the feelings that Aerith had for Zack before Cloud was ever in the picture. First comes the event and then comes the symbol that represents it. Since Zack was Aerith's first boyfriend, and Cloud plays a repetitive, or secondary roll that makes Cloud a symbol of Zack and all of the things that did. :hohum:
To me, Cloud was more than just a symbol of Zack. Of course, Zack was a major part of Aerith's feelings for Cloud, but after what the entire party went through, I doubt Aerith could see Cloud as a summary of Zack without adding on all the different, personal things they went through. Really, I'd go with what Looneymoon said.

Oh, by the way, thanks for making this thread Howl. I've always wondered why no one thought about Aerith's feelings in relation to the love triangle.

She made a point of telling him she's not writing Letter #90, sounds like she had given up on him. True, she was probably making light of it, I'm just quoting the game. Maybe she felt scorned or something and wasn't up to talking about it because if I follow the timeline, this 4th letter would have been sent just before FF7, right?. I don't see Aerith as the kind to be bitter like that, but you never know.
She wrote him 89 letters over the course of 4 years with no response, not to mention she never even saw him. Regardless of how serious she was with him, I'm surprised she didn't give up sooner. Writing that much snail mail requires devotion.

What do you consider "just before FF7?" Zack got the 89th after he beat Genesis, so unless she sent 85 letters between the time he and Cloud got to Banora, I'd say no, letter #4 was sent a month or so after the Nibelheim incident.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Cloud is a common factor in both stories. Both Aeris' and Sephiroth's goals are metaphorically imbued onto Cloud as the focus. Cloud thus is a representation of the planet itself - the thing Sephiroth wants to desotry, the thing Aeris wants to protect.

Looking at the context for motivation of each character makes sense also.
Cloud/Seph relationship: Cloud is the man who humiliated Sephiroth and foiled his plans. Cloud is the representation of all the bitterness and hatred felt in life.
Cloud/Aeris relationship: Before her death, Aeris was starting to move on from the death of her boyfriend for a possible relationship with Cloud. Cloud is both a romantic interest for her, and a close friend for whom she had protective feelings over. Cloud is the representation of all the joys and experiences Aeris experienced and could have experienced in life.

Well put.

That's why I say Cloud -- as the "symbol" -- serves as a summary or example of what's important to Aerith, and the "he was her friend, her koibito" explains it.
 

trash panda

---m(O.O)gle---
AKA
Howl
First off, I want to say Zack. And now, onto the pointless ranting.


To me, Cloud was more than just a symbol of Zack. Of course, Zack was a major part of Aerith's feelings for Cloud, but after what the entire party went through, I doubt Aerith could see Cloud as a summary of Zack without adding on all the different, personal things they went through. Really, I'd go with what Looneymoon said.

Oh, by the way, thanks for making this thread Howl. I've always wondered why no one thought about Aerith's feelings in relation to the love triangle.


She wrote him 89 letters over the course of 4 years with no response, not to mention she never even saw him. Regardless of how serious she was with him, I'm surprised she didn't give up sooner. Writing that much snail mail requires devotion.

What do you consider "just before FF7?" Zack got the 89th after he beat Genesis, so unless she sent 85 letters between the time he and Cloud got to Banora, I'd say no, letter #4 was sent a month or so after the Nibelheim incident.


Thanks. :)

Well...of course Cloud isn't a symbol of all things Zack.

Cloud was just a kid when the Nibelheim incident took place. How many life-altering events could he have experience by the age of 16? When he finally "awoke" outside of Midgar and became Zack's "living legacy", that's really all he knew.

Of course by the end of FFVII, Cloud starts to become his own person. But throughout the duration of the game in which Aerith is around, he's still working with Zack's persona.
 
Top Bottom