LTD Who did Aerith love?

[Dashell]

It just seems like something new pops up every so often like people are really trying to deny that it calls Cloud Aerith's love/beloved/whatever... although as long as there are no fake interviews with fake Japanese people at fake restaurants, it's not a big deal.

 

[Strangelove]

It called Cloud Aerith's koibito, not Aerith Cloud's koibito, hence it don't mean nothing

no wait I forgot what that word was supposed to mean in this context now. The meanings just kept changing, I can't keep track of it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Yeah I dunno where this came from all of a sudden. To me it just seems like a way of getting out of the fact that it says Cloud is Aeriths koibito/lover/monkey person.

Are we not using the third person limited argument anymore?

Wtf are you talkin' about? The fact the novella is written in third person limited isn't an argument, it's a fact. We're not talking about the perspective of how the statement was made, or who made it. The question was who does Aerith love more. Zack or Cloud.

There's no "getting out of" its referencing Cloud as being Aerith's beloved. We're talking about how Cloud's status as her beloved ties into the symbolism of that sentence, and what said symbol is referencing.

It just seems like something new pops up every so often like people are really trying to deny that it calls Cloud Aerith's love/beloved/whatever... although as long as there are no fake interviews with fake Japanese people at fake restaurants, it's not a big deal.

Somehow I think you're missing the entire point of this discussion. No one DENIED Cloud being Aerith's beloved. We're talking about the symbolism and reasoning behind said statement.

 

[Dashell]

It called Cloud Aerith's koibito, not Aerith Cloud's koibito, hence it don't mean nothing

That's what I said.

YOU'RE CONFUSING ME

Somehow I think you're missing the entire point of this discussion. No one DENIED Cloud being Aerith's beloved. We're talking about the symbolism and reasoning behind said statement.

Missed Vendel's posts, eh?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Vendel's the neighborhood baby-eating Cloti. Using his posts as a litmus test of a thread's direction is like looking at Antarctica for an average look at the current global population.

 

[Dashell]

Be that as it may, you did say "NO ONE" and he's someone

But as I said before, I completely agree with what Tres said about the statement. Cloud's her beloved and friend and thus is a symbol of everything important to her.

 

[Makoeyes987]

You're both wrong, and you need to go eat Oglop eggs. Ryushikaze and I are right.

 

[Dashell]

Do Oglop lay eggs?.. but eggs sound good, maybe I'll make those later, thanks

 

[Isabella]

How can it be rationally explained in context that she loved Cloud more than Zack? Felt love for him, yes ... whatever odd circumstances led her to that feeling, she still felt it. But more than Zack?

Or are people not making that argument now? Sorry, trying to follow on my iPhone, cba to follow too closely.

 

[Isabella]

It just seems like something new pops up every so often like people are really trying to deny that it calls Cloud Aerith's love/beloved/whatever... although as long as there are no fake interviews with fake Japanese people at fake restaurants, it's not a big deal.

The question is whether the terminology is being used literally or figuratively. And considering the structure of the sentence, I'd say that's a fair discussion to have.

 

[Dashell]

How can it be rationally explained in context that she loved Cloud more than Zack? Felt love for him, yes ... whatever odd circumstances led her to that feeling, she still felt it. But more than Zack?

Or are people not making that argument now? Sorry, trying to follow on my iPhone, cba to follow too closely.

I guess it really can't be. But it at least shows she loves Cloud and all that.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The thing though, it does call him a symbol of friend and beloved, or at least it's perfectly possible to read the sentence in a way where 'friend and beloved' are part of the 'everything to protect' Cloud symbolizes.

Yes, and that's how I'm reading it and explaining it. XD

In that reading of things, Cloud being her friend and koibito constitutes why he's a symbol of what's important to her.

But then again, you and I spoke about all this before, and as I said, it's not terribly important ...

It really isn't. Like hito said, it calls Cloud Aerith's koibito, not Aerith Cloud's koibito. And that makes a vast difference. Cloud being Aerith's koibito is nothing we haven't known since 1997.

 

[Dashell]

Maybe this is one of those times when we have to agree to disagree.

Mako Eyes: I don't agree to that.
Tres: Me either...

darn =/

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Is there really a legitimate argument that Cloud is physically the symbol of Zack in Aerith's eyes? Because, although, yes, Cloud is Zack's living legacy, he is NOT a representation of 'Zack' himself.

Cloud, messed up kid (As Aerith herself describes him) became Aerith's bodyguard, took her in, fought for the planet, showed her what it meant to give everything for the people you cared about--so, YES, he is the representation of EVERYTHING important to her. He, by her own monologues, is the symbol of everything that SHE fought for.

Why is that so hard to follow?

Cloud =\= Zack.

Or am I just misunderstanding the current argument?

 

[trash panda]

Ohno, you guys better not be spamming in my thread.

Did she now? The real Cloud? The one she wasn't projecting her feelings for Zack on?

Funny that once she dies and Cloud becomes himself we have nothing that suggest current romantic feelings. And she is once again with Zack.

This isn't just irony. Like I said, by the time Cloud discovers who he really is and invents his own personality, Aerith is already gone. And like you said, at this time, she's back with Zack again in the lifestream.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Is there really a legitimate argument that Cloud is physically the symbol of Zack in Aerith's eyes? Because, although, yes, Cloud is Zack's living legacy, he is NOT a representation of 'Zack' himself.

Cloud, messed up kid (As Aerith herself describes him) became Aerith's bodyguard, took her in, fought for the planet, showed her what it meant to give everything for the people you cared about--so, YES, he is the representation of EVERYTHING important to her. He, by her own monologues, is the symbol of everything that SHE fought for.

Why is that so hard to follow?

Cloud =\= Zack.

Or am I just misunderstanding the current argument?

I think you are misunderstanding. The 'Cloud as symbol' argument isn't based on her continually overlapping him with Zack even post mortem, but as reading the sentence as saying friend and beloved are things Cloud is a symbol of.
An example of this logic is
"The wild rose was rebellion, it was freedom from opression-- it was a symbol of all the things Firion fought so valiantly for."
in which the first two are obviously examples of what the wild rose symbolizes instead of literally is.
That, and the 'you can't be a symbol of yourself in the singular' truism, which means that if it is referring to Cloud as 'beloved' and not merely just a symbol, he's part of beloved in the plural sense.
But yes, it's never been just 'She loved Cloud cuz she still sees him as Zack', she gets over that mid disc 1 when she realizes that's what she's been doing.

 

[Vendel]

Missed Vendel's posts, eh?

What about my post?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

An example of this logic is
"The wild rose was rebellion, it was freedom from opression-- it was a symbol of all the things Firion fought so valiantly for."
in which the first two are obviously examples of what the wild rose symbolizes instead of literally is.

The problem with that logic is that Cloud literally is one of the things before the dash -- Aerith's friend -- which your example would necessitate he merely be symbolic of. To assume that one is meant to be literal and another symbolic just because is the kind of cherry picking we usually argue with.

 

[Dashell]

The problem with that logic is that Cloud literally is one of the things before the dash -- Aerith's friend -- which your example would necessitate he merely be symbolic of. To assume that one is meant to be literal and another symbolic just because is the kind of cherry picking we usually argue with.

Thank you!

 

[Ryushikaze]

The problem with that logic is that Cloud literally is one of the things before the dash -- Aerith's friend -- which your example would necessitate he merely be symbolic of. To assume that one is meant to be literal and another symbolic just because is the kind of cherry picking we usually argue with.

In this instance, that he is such a thing is not actually a problem, since he can be a friend and symbolize friends in general. Same as Aerith can be an example of a failure and symbolize all failures including hers at the same time.
A tree can't symbolize a tree, but it can symbolize a forest. Hence my statement that if it's talking of beloved as a symbol, it can't be just of him, but it can be of him and others.
In the idea that the former are symbolic, being a symbol of friend would mean he symbolizes all her friends, including himself.

I get where you're coming from, I'm just trying to explain the logic behind the 'symbol' concept.

That, or in general, it's just badly written. I'm perfectly willing to conclude that, too.

 

[Dashell]

In the idea that the former are symbolsic, being a symbol of friend would mean he symbolizes all her friends, including himself.

Wait wouldn't he be symbolizing himself then?
EDIT
Never mind I think I get it... sorta... he can symbolize more than one friend, but he can't symbolize just one beloved if the beloved is himself, right?

 

[Ryushikaze]

That's basically it. A man can be part of a group and symbolize that group as well.
Captain American symbolizes American Soldiers, and is one himself.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

"Captain America was a Soldier, a Protector--A symbol of everything the country held dear..."

versus

"Cloud was her friend, her beloved — a symbol of what was important to her, and someone to be protected."

Cloud being ONE of a group or the symbol of a group doesn't change the basic sentence in that Aerith calls him her beloved--DIRECTLY.

So I guess I really am confused. Are people trying to argue that Aerith wasn't specifying Cloud himself in that. Because she is. He's her beloved and ALSO a symbol of everything that she holds important.

No, Cloud is not a symbol of friends or beloved--he IS a friend and beloved.

Where is the contention, again?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm with Fairheartstrife on this. The structure of the sentence itself doesn't lend to the notion that Cloud is being referred to as a symbol of a beloved.

More to the point:

In this instance, that he is such a thing is not actually a problem, since he can be a friend and symbolize friends in general. Same as Aerith can be an example of a failure and symbolize all failures including hers at the same time.

The difference is that Aerith was specifically called "a symbol of his failure at being able to protect those dear to him." Cloud was called "a symbol of what was important to her" -- not "a symbol of her koibito."

Aerith can be an example of a failure and symbolize all failures, sure -- but the sentence itself referred to her as a symbol of Cloud's failures.

If I cast a sentence such as, "Cloud was Tifa's friend, her koibito -- a symbol of the ordinary life she wanted to have," is it referring to Cloud as a symbol of Tifa's friend, a symbol of her koibito, or is it calling him a symbol of the ordinary life she wants?

It's the latter. "Symbol" comes before "of," which comes before "ordinary life, etc." Likewise, in the Case of Lifestream White line, "symbol" comes before "of," which comes before "what was important to her."

The part before the dash, at most, is explaining to us why the part following the dash is true.


I realize that the purpose of this thread is focusing on Aerith's feelings, but I still don't see why they're a big deal for the LTD. Even if one is setting out to prove that Aerith wasn't pursuing Cloud romantically -- which we all know she was -- it's completely irrelevant. The LTD is about Cloud's feelings.

And, again, we know Aerith pursued Cloud romantically. Yes, it was initially because he reminded her of Zack, but she moves past that and is still pursuing him, only with the intention of getting to know the real him.

It's also not like the Gold Saucer date was the last comment on the matter from Aerith. Look at what she does at the Temple of the Ancients. That whole bit with asking Cait Sith to tell her how compatible she and Cloud were right in front of everyone was blatant pursuit.

 

[Ryushikaze]

"Cloud was her friend, her beloved — a symbol of what was important to her, and someone to be protected."

Looking back, it is specifically the inclusion of the group 'what was important to her' which led to this idea, since it only made sense for friend and beloved to fall into that group, making Cloud a symbol of those things. Like in the Firi example, it's the producing of an overarcing group after the dash that makes it read as though that which comes before fits into that group, much as in the 'Cloud's family' quote from the AC playback.
And no, FHS, the idea isn't that he can't be part of the group, it's that if the idea is that the former two are things Cloud symbolizes, it can't mean JUST Cloud, not that he's excluded from the group.

Not that I'm a hardliner on this idea at all. I just want to explain the thought process behind it.

That said, I do agree this whole discussion is utterly irrelevant, but it's interesting, though more for grammar slinging than LTD facts.