Man of Steel / Justice League / DC films

[The Twilight Mexican]

He's a visionary filmmaker, to be sure, but you can expect most anything he does to be joyless and dramatic at all the wrong times. I wouldn't level this charge against "300," because it was exactly what it was supposed to be, and I actually really appreciated what he did with "Man of Steel" -- but he can seriously miss the point of some stuff he takes on for adaptation.

For instance: "Watchmen." Way too much soap opera-like delivery for lines that didn't need it. I'm not even talking about Rorschach, though they fucked up the delivery of important lines from him too. Just have them sound like ordinary people talking. That should have been easier anyway.

But seriously, though, some of the most iconic and memorable lines from the comic were absolutely wrecked in the film by shit delivery, for which only the director can carry blame. Remember the relaxed posture and calm, almost blank expression on Rorschach's face as he said "Does that answer your question, doctor?" in the comic? Why did that need to be replaced by an intense expression with full-on grimdark voice and a pause before saying "doctor"? Fucking stupid.

And how about Veidt's "I did it thirty-five minutes ago"? Why is he smarmy about it? Why does he sound like he's gloating? His face and the non-bolded text here would suggest he was supposed to drop this line with something between neutral matter-of-fact-ness and a pained acknowledgement that he had succeeded.

And good lord, how about every single line from Silk Spectre? "Which Silk Spectre?" you ask. Both of them!

But asking good actors to act like they're on a tela novella doesn't get into the biggest problems with that adaptation, one of which is those very unnecessary added action sequences you spoke of. True to form, they were presented much too dramatically, and with way too much slow motion garbage. It came off as trying way too hard, which is a problem with Snyder's directing in general. We're watching fundamentally ridiculous people try to be superheroes here. Stop trying to use camera wizardry to make us think any of them but Rorschach is actually any kind of cool.

The very biggest problem with the "Watchmen" adaptation, though, is that Snyder tried filming a comic book instead of a movie. And in so doing, he failed at both. "Watchmen" is only unfilmable as a comic, and that's because it was using its medium specificity to do what comics can do best -- in some cases, what only comics can do.

Flashing back to the same moment three or four times throughout the story works in a comic. You can convey what's needed in a single panel while doing that. Try showing people the same footage they've already seen again and again, they fall asleep.

A successful film adaptation of "Watchmen" would do the same thing with film that the original did with comics. It would celebrate its existence as a film and use the strengths of filmmaking. It wouldn't just try recreating the comic as it appears on the page, in the process missing all the actual character that lay between the covers.

Even when attempting to just recreate the comic as a movie, Snyder still didn't come through. That's why we have all this sleek shit and fancy lighting in an adaptation of a comic that deliberately went for subdued coloring, character designs, and line work -- atypical of mainstream comics then and now.

Shit, even the credits felt way off the mark. Why is what should be a moment of somber reflection made frantic by the visuals and a song like the shitty MCR cover of "Desolation Row"?

Long story short: It didn't even feel like "Watchmen" past what had been a brilliant opening sequence.

 

[Geostigma]

Damn you for making good points!

Legitimately the first time I've seen someone bring up those points for Watchmen. Every single time it's just "it's not 100% like the comics" , "no squid" so on and so forth.

I'm gonna have to think on the points you brought up and may even have to rewatch it soon while your post is fresh with me lol.

 

[Clement Rage]

Well, now I know what I'm doing with my weekend. Not breaking out the DVD yet, but I did take out my copy of Watchmen comic.

I think Watchmen was adapted about as well as it could have been. The problem with those lines you were talking about for me was less the delivery than that they were comic book lines that just didn't work when spoken aloud. (I do love Watchmen the comic, this isn't me complaining about it). But they're so iconic that they have to be included or the fans will riot.

"What do you expect? The comedian is dead." is a good line in the comic, but it just doesn't work when spoken.

The squid was a pragmatic adaptation, trying to render it would eat up half the budget and probably not look convincing anyway, thus robbing the moment of its punch.

The lines in the comic like "I did it thirty five minutes ago" were highlighted, by virtue of being in speech bubbles on their own. You can't do that onscreen, so they work differently. It was done as well as it could be, IMO.

Action mostly didn't bother me, it wasn't as far from the comics as some people said. In the comic they were doing stuff like fighting mid sentence. Dan and Laurie (relative normal people) won a fight with five armed men. 'Realistically', they're found dead the morning after the press conference.

I may have harped on about this a bit, but I came out of BVS the first time with mixed feelings. The rewatch on DVD was stunning, because it hit me hard just how well thought out the whole thing was. Lex's plan is both legitimately brilliant and perfectly plausible, there's so much subtlety that comes through on the second viewing (especially the Ultimate Edition).

The Bat killing people is a weak point, but if you have a problem with that then you have to also not like Christian Bale burning down a building full of chained up prisoners or Michael Keaton shoving a thug off a building with a bomb tied to him while smiling.

Martha was also weak, but not as weak as people say it is. "He stops because his mom has the same name' is funny, but that doesn't make it true. His initial reaction is confusion/anger, he just couldn't follow through on killing someone whose last words to his killer were a plea to save his mother. It was a little fumbled in execution, but not the crime against cinema it's seen as.

What exactly do you mean by 'joyless', TTM? I've seen the word used, but I honestly don't understand what's meant by it. They don't quip in combat, but there is plenty of levity laced through the film.

I don't think this is just 'Clement always disagrees with everyone' either, although it may have been helped by the reviews of Civil War virtually all taking shots at BVS.

 

[lithiumkatana17]

Thanks for the reply Tres! I appreciate all that you wrote. I personally haven't read the Watchmen comics yet, and I probably never will; not because the story isn't great, but judging from the film, it seems like a story I'd enjoy watching more than reading (if that makes sense), despite how skewed the movie may be. Regardless I appreciate your opinions. Obviously Snyder isn't perfect, but directors are always learning.

I'm rewatching BvS right now. I've only seen the extended cut, so I don't know what the theatrical version was like, but I enjoy this version of the movie thoroughly. The script does seem like it suffers at times, but I'm not sure how much the director can do when the studio has already approved it. I'm not sure how much they're allowed to change, if anything. I'm sure it depends on the studio/filmmaker relationship.

I enjoyed Man of Steel, though I've only seen the movie once. It's difficult to hook me with Superman because of who he is as a character, not many weaknesses, etc. But I liked Cavill's portrayal.

Some will disagree, but I really love this version of Batman. I love that he's a bitter, jaded, cynical old fuck who gives no fucks anymore. I'm still not sure why people are confused by the 'save Martha!' scene and why Bruce reacts that way; he's obviously a more deeply traumatized version of Batman than what we've seen in Nolan's films, and suffers from some major PTSD.

All in all, I had my reservations about the film before it was released, and I still think it was a desperate attempt to get all 3 main heroes of the Justice League together in a quick effort to catch up with Marvel's success, but I liked the film. I would even go so far as to say I loved it.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I've only seen the theatrical cut of BvS. It was decent enough. I didn't love it, but I liked it. Not amazing, but not bad either. I think it tried to do too much, though, which left "Man of Steel" to come off feeling like the much stronger movie.

Perhaps the extended cut makes the improvements it needs. I will have to get around to seeing that.

One point I will make in BvS's defense since Clem brought up the unfavorable comparisons often made to "Civil War": Luthor's plot wasn't really any more convoluted than the villain's plan in Marvel's movie. They were both rather more complex than they needed to be for the sake of things the films wanted to do. That doesn't have to be a strike against either, but I can see why it went unnoticed more easily with "Civil War."

Well, now I know what I'm doing with my weekend. Not breaking out the DVD yet, but I did take out my copy of Watchmen comic.

I think Watchmen was adapted about as well as it could have been. The problem with those lines you were talking about for me was less the delivery than that they were comic book lines that just didn't work when spoken aloud. (I do love Watchmen the comic, this isn't me complaining about it). But they're so iconic that they have to be included or the fans will riot.

"What do you expect? The comedian is dead." is a good line in the comic, but it just doesn't work when spoken.

Not sure I agree with that. With the right inflection and body language, I can see a line like "I did it thirty-five minutes ago" being powerful, no problem.

As is, almost everything memorable from the comic felt so flat, all the way down to the lines from the editor of the New Frontiersman at the very end. Instead of sounding angry and speaking at a breathless pace, this guy sounded kinda bored and possibly senile.

The squid was a pragmatic adaptation, trying to render it would eat up half the budget and probably not look convincing anyway, thus robbing the moment of its punch.

That change was overall fine. I've never had a problem with losing the squid from Veidt's plan. The only aspect of it that wasn't effective for me was that it didn't compare even a little bit to the horror Laurie and Dr. Manhattan should have discovered in New York. A large crater where there used to be buildings is one thing, but three million dead people across an otherwise unharmed cityscape is truly the stuff of nightmares.

The lines in the comic like "I did it thirty five minutes ago" were highlighted, by virtue of being in speech bubbles on their own. You can't do that onscreen, so they work differently.

This is where medium specificity comes into play. Simply use the strengths in the language of film to do the same thing. It absolutely can be done. Film punctuates particular lines of dialogue all the time through camera work, delivery, etc.

I can think of no less than three choices off the top of my head that could have been made to give it more resonance.

The Bat killing people is a weak point, but if you have a problem with that then you have to also not like Christian Bale burning down a building full of chained up prisoners or Michael Keaton shoving a thug off a building with a bomb tied to him while smiling.

I was never in love with Keaton's Batman myself anyway. As for Bale's and the scene you're referencing (when Bruce destroyed the League of Shadows headquarters), I recall one prisoner with his hands tied, and Bruce cut him free as he began cleaning house (you may have to pause your screen at the right moment to see this). Granted, he still killed a lot of ninja there when stuff exploded, but it felt a lot less deliberate.

Nevertheless, even that isn't so problematic when taking into account that the Affleck Batman is based more on the "The Dark Knight Returns" version. It's unexpected, a bit jarring, and strikes one as a little odd, frankly, given this Batman's concerns about Superman, but it doesn't ruin the film or anything.

My biggest complaint about it, honestly, is that it didn't add anything to the movie because it came too early and there was too much of it. Had it been reserved for when he saved Martha Kent, there may have been an actual use for it.

Martha was also weak, but not as weak as people say it is. "He stops because his mom has the same name' is funny, but that doesn't make it true. His initial reaction is confusion/anger, he just couldn't follow through on killing someone whose last words to his killer were a plea to save his mother. It was a little fumbled in execution, but not the crime against cinema it's seen as.

It was awkward, yeah. Could have been less so without the flashbacks about Martha Wayne. One of the many occasions a director would have served a film better by trusting the audience to make a connection without heavy handed flashbacks.

This very practice is one of the bigger reasons I couldn't get into that "How to Get Away With Murder" show when everybody was raving about it.

What exactly do you mean by 'joyless', TTM? I've seen the word used, but I honestly don't understand what's meant by it. They don't quip in combat, but there is plenty of levity laced through the film.

Perhaps this is where just my sense of humor and other sensibilities don't always find a home with Snyder's work.

There's probably nothing inherently wrong with his approach. "Watchmen" aside, he's made some good movies. "Dawn of the Dead" was quite good, as was "300," and I would even call "Man of Steel" great.

There's just a tendency for movies from him to have the same atmosphere in pretty much every scene. You, as the viewer must always be "on." There's no subtle signals to relax and enjoy the show.

Like I said, it doesn't make his work inherently bad. Not at all. It does make it almost impossible to ever think to yourself "I can't wait to watch that again," though.

Or maybe that's just me.

That's what I mean by "joyless," though. When you combine this approach with Snyder's favored styles of cinematography, it's easy to see why some people say it's just too much.

 

[Lulcielid]

One point I will make in BvS's defense since Clem brought up the unfavorable comparisons often made to "Civil War": Luthor's plot wasn't really any more convoluted than the villain's plan in Marvel's movie. They were both rather more complex than they needed to be for the sake of things the films wanted to do. That doesn't have to be a strike against either, but I can see why it went unnoticed more easily with "Civil War."

From my own experience I never felt lose with Luthor's plan though I did felt it was bit over complicated, like Simon's plans and were equally "dumb".

For comparison:
Lex Luthor's plan in Batman v Superman.
Simon's plan in Civil War.
Spoilers off course.

They don't seen that much different.

 

[Clement Rage]

Luthor's plan way better for me, relied less on blind luck. But anyway.

Not sure I agree with that. With the right inflection and body language, I can see a line like "I did it thirty-five minutes ago" being powerful, no problem.

Oh, sure. But that wouldn't be ' just ordinary people talking', would it? But I'll have to get back to you, it's been a while since I've seen it.

I was never in love with Keaton's Batman myself anyway. As for Bale's and the scene you're referencing (when Bruce destroyed the League of Shadows headquarters), I recall one prisoner with his hands tied, and Bruce cut him free as he began cleaning house (you may have to pause your screen at the right moment to see this). Granted, he still killed a lot of ninja there when stuff exploded, but it felt a lot less deliberate.

Nevertheless, even that isn't so problematic when taking into account that the Affleck Batman is based more on the "The Dark Knight Returns" version. It's unexpected, a bit jarring, and strikes one as a little odd, frankly, given this Batman's concerns about Superman, but it doesn't ruin the film or anything.

It was awkward, yeah. Could have been less so without the flashbacks about Martha Wayne. One of the many occasions a director would have served a film better by trusting the audience to make a connection without heavy handed flashbacks.

I broadly agree here, but my point is that it seems as though a lot of the criticism of this is people suddenly noticing/choosing to dislike things they've forgiven in similar films.

"Batman killing people? UNFORGIVEABLE!" "But what about these other movies, do you also hate that?"

"You mean people are killed in superhero fights? UNFORGIVEABLE!" "Yes, and this movie is taking that seriously and addressing it instead of glossing over it"

"They're advertising too many other heroes" Why is that a problem, they were worked into the story in a way that made sense.

"Lex is nothing like the comics!" Em, that depends, and his haircut at the end sets him up to develop more anyway.

Again, stopping because their Moms have the same name? Funny, yes, true, no.

There's just a tendency for movies from him to have the same atmosphere in pretty much every scene. You, as the viewer must always be "on." There's no subtle signals to relax and enjoy the show.

Like I said, it doesn't make his work inherently bad. Not at all. It does make it almost impossible to ever think to yourself "I can't wait to watch that again," though.

Or maybe that's just me.

Not just you, maybe, but that's a 'not to my taste' issue, not a 'this is the worst movie ever' issue', which a lot of people seemed to confuse. And I'm not sure I agree, anyway. There is legit funny moments in the battles that don't interrupt the flow, like Batman fighting with a literal kitchen sink, or Superman knocking the 'number of days without an accident' sign back to 0.

Not to make this a versus thread, but in general, applying thought to BVS made me realise 'wait a second... that makes sense!" Applying thought to Civil War made me think "Wait a second... that doesn't make sense!"

Maybe it's an ideological difference, or something? (Alternatively, I'm spending too much time thinking about comic book movies)

I don't want to do too much bashing, Civil War, like Winter Soldier, was a good movie I happened to dislike, but it seems like a key difference was when people found an issue with one movie, they dug into it, and in another, they were willing to roll with it. For whatever reason, I had the same experience in the other direction.

 

[Clement Rage]

To backtrack to Joss, my worry now is that he will be credited for 'saving' the DCEU if Justice League succeeds, regardless of what he actually did or didn't do, and 'fans' will use it as another reason to hate Snyder.

Joss is good at a very specific style, not sure how he'll work if he has to move outside that.

 

[Shademp]

- Source

 

[Clement Rage]

I actually did watch Watchmen,, and I still don't really see the problem. The only obviously bad action scene is the hallway of inmates in the prison. For the rest, it was pretty much in line with the comics. I'd even say some things are improved.

Spoiler

Dan following Rorschach out of Karnak, instead of ignoring his oldest friend (for a certain value of friend, fair enough) in favour of his girlfriend of two days

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Was that scene an improvement? For the film,

Spoiler

Dan seemed to suspect that Rorschach may be killed (in what made for a misleading scene for someone familiar with the comic; it looked like Rorschach's fate was going to be changed, what with the "Don't even think about it" line). So, sure, following him out was better under those circumstances.

But in the comic it didn't seem to register to him -- Adrian even seems unconcerned about Rorschach's intention to spread the truth, because he doesn't think anyone would believe him.

 

[Clement Rage]

Sort of.

Spoiler

He goes to meditate to consider the possibility. I'd still expect Dan to follow in most circumstances anyway.

 

[Tetsujin]

Danny Elfman scores Justice League

Very good news imo.

 

[Ghost X]

C-could a... could a super hero movie finally have a memorable theme again?

 

[Lulcielid]

C-could a... could a super hero movie finally have a memorable theme again?

Just used it frequently during marketing phase and people surely remember it.

 

[Clement Rage]

You don't remember WW's theme?

 

[lithiumkatana17]

I love her theme, and how it was remixed for the WW score, which I now own.

It's so kickass; I can't listen to it while driving or I'll start behaving like a maniac.

 

[Tetsujin]

I'm honestly super critical of Wonder Woman's "theme".

It's a 5-second loop of an electric cello and the rest is generic DUN DUN DUN percussion. It doesn't give me the feeling that anyone actually sat down and spent some time thinking about what the character represents or what emotions or mood it should try to convey except for "kickass action".

So it works as a cool action cue but it's a terrible character theme imo.

 

[lithiumkatana17]

Have you listened to the WW score at all? It's present in the Amazons of Themyscira track.

Personally I think of the Is She With You? track as more of WW's action theme, whereas the more heroic one we hear in the WW film really represents her as a character. You can hear them both in the Wonder Woman's Wrath track from the film.

 

[Tetsujin]

Soundtrack didn't particularly wow me but I'm not really a fan of the Hans Zimmer cronies in general tbh.

 

[lithiumkatana17]

To each their own.

Tbh, when I first heard the WW track in BvS, I got this distinct Dirge of Cerberus vibe from it. It just reminded me a lot of Masashi Hamauzu's tracks for the game.

 

[Shademp]

Tbh, when I first heard the WW track in BvS, I got this distinct Dirge of Cerberus vibe from it. It just reminded me a lot of Masashi Hamauzu's tracks for the game.

SOMEBODY MENTIONED DIRGE OF CERBERUS

Spoiler

I don't hear Masashi Hamauzu at all from the WW theme.

 

[lithiumkatana17]

Tbh, when I first heard the WW track in BvS, I got this distinct Dirge of Cerberus vibe from it. It just reminded me a lot of Masashi Hamauzu's tracks for the game.

SOMEBODY MENTIONED DIRGE OF CERBERUS

Spoiler

I don't hear Masashi Hamauzu at all from the WW theme.

It's just my ears then. Idk. The WW them in BvS just reminds me of the DoC soundtrack.

Don't judge me.

 

[Clement Rage]

Still regularly listening to BVS soundtrack.

 

[Clement Rage]

Probably posting in this thread too much now, but after I came across more details I'm not sure if it's a good sign that one of the first thins that happened after the change of director was that the composer was fired.

I may well be biased.