Most Powerful Hero/Villain

[Makoeyes987]

....Way to go at posting an irrelevant definition. They aren't nigh omnipotent. They *are* omnipotent. As per the second definition. Does that second definition not exist in Buster-land?

Care to actually post something relevant for a change? It's gettin' old. Really fast. And you aren't saying anything at all.

 

[Buster Sword]

....Way to go at posting an irrelevant definition. They aren't nigh omnipotent. They *are* omnipotent. As per the second definition. Does that second definition not exist in Buster-land?

Care to actually post something relevant for a change? It's gettin' old. Really fast. And you aren't saying anything at all.

Yeah, I'd like to say something actually. Ashes was right man, admins shouldnt also be bullies

 

[Ⓐaron]

It's still possible to care about a debate even if you don't care about the topic because of the conduct of the people participating in the debate. When one party provides canonical evidence and the other party utterly disregards that evidence to continue arguing, I have to step in and call bullshit.

This thread has gotten utterly ridiculous. Mako isn't "bullying" you into anything; he's simply pointing out that you're completely ignoring facts.

 

[Buster Sword]

It's still possible to care about a debate even if you don't care about the topic because of the conduct of the people participating in the debate. When one party provides canonical evidence and the other party utterly disregards that evidence to continue arguing, I have to step in and call bullshit.

This thread has gotten utterly ridiculous. Mako isn't "bullying" you into anything; he's simply pointing out that you're completely ignoring facts.

Anyone who says anything other than Kefka for most evil simply wasn't paying attention.

My opinion > yours plox?

 

[Makoeyes987]

LOL

Is all I can say. Wow, trying to change the subject now? Let's stay on topic please unless you're done repeating the same thing over, and over again Buster.

@V

Pretty much

 

[Buster Sword]

LOL

Is all I can say. Wow, trying to change the subject now? Let's stay on topic please unless you're done repeating the same thing over, and over again Buster.

@V

Pretty much

Nah, I was told to do it, because you somehow ignored his PM

 

[Makoeyes987]

Want to continue spamming Buster? The private message to Ashes I replied to is absolutely none of your business and has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

 

[Ⓐaron]

"most evil" and "most powerful" are two separate debates, so I'm really not sure why you're bringing that up

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I'm about 2 inches from just closing this thread, and restarting it with clearer guidelines if this thread doesn't shape up significantly in the next few posts.

From now one - Let's stick to ONLY the Final Fantasy universe for proofs, and examples, as all other universes powers are subjective to hew they are created. It's just the same as trying to determine if Kuja could take on Lavos from Chrono Trigger - they're from different universes that are based on very different mechanics. Even if the definition of Omnipotence stays solid throughout, the varying levels UP to omnipotence can't be directly compared without a common frame of reference. The only reason that you can even viably compare / debate the different powers of the characters in the different Final Fantasy universes, is because of their culmination in Dissidia.

When you have two omnipotent beings both fighting against each other, you reach a stalemate - to use a quote from The Dark Knight - what happens when an Unstoppable Force meets an Immovable Object? They basically cancel each other out. Thus the need to bring in powers from the outside to tip that balance in one party's favor.

Let me briefly bring up the whole summoning business, and for this I am going slightly off topic to make a point. In most cases, a summoner that summons a beast more powerful than itself either has to make a contract with the creature (if it's intelligent, and can be done if they share a common goal, and is usually more persuasion than anything else), or be able to force its ego over that of the creature's own will. If not, it usually ends up in the significantly more powerful creature turning on the being who summoned it.

I don't plan on taking part in this discussion, but I thought I should drop in and set up some ground rules for those discussing it so that it doesn't get so horribly out of hand. To EVERYONE - try not to be condescending, and STAY ON TOPIC within the guidelines discussed. If anyone else has guidelines to suggest, please do so. I'd rather not have to come shut things down here, but I will if I have to.


X

 

[Cookie Monster]

om⋅nip⋅o⋅tent
   /ɒmˈnɪpətənt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [om-nip-uh-tuhnt] Show IPA
–adjective
1. almighty or infinite in power, as God.
2. having very great or unlimited authority or power.

From http://dictionary.reference.com/

omnipotent [om-nip-a-tent]
Adjective
having very great or unlimited power

From http://www.thefreedictionary.com

Here are two definitions from two different dictionaries that explicitly support Mako's and my own arguments. The popular definition of the word is irrelevant. The dictionary is stating the applicable use of the word by its determined definitions, which means Mako and I are perfectly justified in using the word "omnipotent" to describe Chaos and his power. Since we've provided you with tangible evidence that our preconceived definition of "omnipotent" is true, it pretty much states what we've been arguing is an irrefutable fact. Now your definition of "omnipotent" is also true, but seeing how the word clearly has multiple definitions, it does not debunk our argument in saying Chaos is in fact omnipotent.

In other words, try again. All you've done is provide us with a definition of a word that is true but not the sole definition of that word, rendering your argument vain and fruitless.

Awesome. I'm late as always.



Um, yeah. You just debunked your own argument. The puppet master has complete control over his puppets. That fact that you can influence another being to act according to your will, pretty much proves Chaos is stronger than the other villains. Ok, Ultimecia can compress space and time, and others have the power to blow up planets. Whoop-dee-fucking-do. Chaos can prevent or allow those actions on a whim.

To further debunk your argument with Ultimecia...time and space exist within that universe, not outside of it. Thus, Chaos remains immune from her power.

And, as previously stated, the villains excluding Chaos have only been a threat to their planet. The fact that Chaos gathered these villains, forced his will upon them, and threatened the balance and existence of an entire universe, pretty much states he's the strongest villain.

Your points about Marvel are irrelevant. We don't know the true scale of any of the universes in either Final Fantasy or Marvel, so that argument is indubitably moot. And, Marvel has nothing to do with Final Fantasy.

Now, considering your views of how arguments/debates should be run...please provide proof of another villain posing a bigger threat.

Also, fgj.

I also like how the bold portion of my previous post was ignored.

 

[OWA-2]

But from the definition of the word, we could also argue that Safer Sephiroth, Kefka et al are also omnipotent at the height of their powers.

Nowhere near, Sefiros couldn't even beat Superman.

And you think Kefka could? lol


Ah, and for your information, the only reason I didn't mention Chaos as the strongest villain in my previous post, is because I was ignoring Dissidia. But if we consider it's plot as being canon, then I believe that he IS above the other villains.

 

[Buster Sword]

Here are two definitions from two different dictionaries that explicitly support Mako's and my own arguments. The popular definition of the word is irrelevant. The dictionary is stating the applicable use of the word by its determined definitions, which means Mako and I are perfectly justified in using the word "omnipotent" to describe Chaos and his power. Since we've provided you with tangible evidence that our preconceived definition of "omnipotent" is true, it pretty much states what we've been arguing is an irrefutable fact. Now your definition of "omnipotent" is also true, but seeing how the word clearly has multiple definitions, it does not debunk our argument in saying Chaos is in fact omnipotent.

In other words, try again. All you've done is provide us with a definition of a word that is true but not the sole definition of that word, rendering your argument vain and fruitless.

Yay, someone can debate without showing their god complex.
He isn't omnipotent because he can't make a rock he can't throw/

Ok, I'll break this down, first of all, you say this definition explicitly supports yours and Makos claims? Well if that is the case, Chaos CANNOT do anything/everything imagineable/possible, but wait

while he's still capable of doing the logical and illogical.

So he is saying that Chaos is not a Judeo Christian God but he CAN do everything possible?

A deity is able to do absolutely anything, even the logically impossible

That is the JC God's omnipotence, the same omnipotence he says that Chaos is not capable of.

So for all his comments about not making sense, that would come as a surprise right?

Ok, lets see this "great power" broken down.
Thesaurus for "Unlimited" to which you did not bold in your statement.

Synonyms: absolute, all-encompassing, all-out*, boundless, countless, endless, full, full-blown*, full-out, full-scale, great, illimitable, immeasurable, immense, incalculable

http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/unlimited

adjective 1. infinite, endless, countless, great, vast,

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/unlimited

You could argue I was selectively chosing words, but then I could say the same for you, by missing out "unlimited"

Your definition also says "or"

Synonyms: as a choice, as a substitute, as an alternative, conversely, either, in other words, in preference to, in turn, on the other hand, or but, or else, or only, preferentially

http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/or

Omni:

all ( Omnipotent-all powerful)

wordmentor.placementor.com/vocabulary_powerkit/02.htm

I don't think we need to go into what potent means.

This basically means it is just a substitute for unlimited, giving great and unlimited the same meaning. Which concludes that Chaos cannot do everything possible, because it is already established that he isnt and outright God.

I also like how the bold portion of my previous post was ignored.

Honest mistake.
As we have established that Chaos is not the be all and end all, he can "die"
Neo Ex Death was a threat to existance, if existance goes, so does Chaos. If Chaos WAS a Judeo Christian God, he would be immune to it, but it has been already established, he isn't, rendering him to NOT be immortal.

And you think Kefka could? lol


Ah, and for your information, the only reason I didn't mention Chaos as the strongest villain in my previous post, is because I was ignoring Dissidia. But if we consider it's plot as being canon, then I believe that he IS above the other villains.

Kuja, Kefka, Sephiroth would all die at the hands of Superman.

My mistake, fair enough.

Oh and I'm done now, I await the obvious and possible response.

 

[Tetsujin]

Kuja, Kefka, Sephiroth would all die at the hands of Superman.

Except that any random asshole can throw a rock of green alien shit at him and he'll become a weak pussy in mere seconds.
Also, one might argue that the FF magic might be able to effectively hurt him but we can't say because it's two different universes and we can't test it out.

Overall, Superman's power is overrated and damn comic heroes shouldn't be brought into the discussion anyway.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Overall, Superman's power is overrated

That depends.

 

[Max Payne]

Superman is quite weak against magic. Hell, enough for writers to have him getting kicked quite a distance by fucking Scorpion from Mortal Kombat.

Either way this is irrelevant.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Wtf is he still going on about? Didn't we just say to stop bringing up comic book heroes in a damn FF discussion? It's a damn strawman and completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

And I love how we have to argue the fucking dictionary now because Buster can't seem to accept the fact the dictionary's definition of omnipotence fits Chaos. That point is finished. There's nothing more to say about it. You bringing up a bunch of irrelevant and non-related stuff from the thesaurus and a wikitionary isn't going to change the second definition of "omnipotent" which fits Chaos, and further supports him being above the villains.

Can we please stick to the subject?

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Can we like...move to another point of discussion, maybe? Most powerful hero or something?

 

[Cookie Monster]

So he is saying that Chaos is not a Judeo Christian God but he CAN do everything possible?

Where in that statement does Mako say the word everything?

That is the JC God's omnipotence

We're talking about Chaos being a god, not THE God. Your JC God is a figure of a monotheistic religion. This God is all knowing and all powerful, the creator of heaven and earth, i.e. everything in existence. He is a sole deity.

And here's where you argument falls. You're only using the JC God to support your claims of what Gods and deities are. There are two primary forms of gods or deities. Sole deities and principal deities. As previously stated your JC God is a sole deity. Now look at the Greek and Roman mythologies, Hinduism, and Shintoism. Within these religions exist various omnipotent beings in which they are all knowing and all powerful only within a specific realm. Apollo, God of Light and the Sun. Jupiter, God of the Sky and Thunder. Shiva, God of Destruction. Susanoo, God of the Sea.

Their powers are limited to certain realms, but they are all powerful within those realms...making their status as gods and omnipotent beings indisputable.

And now, we have Chaos, God of Discord. The word "discord" is basically a synonym for dissidence, conflict, and war. Which is probably why he's only able to control the villains of Final Fantasy, simply because of their hostile nature. But, Chaos' standing as an omnipotent being is again undeniable because of the reasons stated above.

The same can be said for Cosmos.

So yeah, an' shit.

 

[Hawkeye.]

Can we like...move to another point of discussion, maybe? Most powerful hero or something?

If Cosmos doesn't count, I would have to say Terra/Tina from FF VI has the most raw power out of all of them.

 

[Dark and Divine]

If Cosmos doesn't, I would have to say Terra/Tina from FF VI has the most raw power out of all of them.

Yes, I agree.

Tina is the one who has more raw power of all the heroes.

Next would Zidane, because of his Trance ability, and due to the fact that he was created with the purpose of causing mass destruction, as Garland's Angel of Death.

Cecil would be next, because he is a Paladin, an holy knight "bathed in eternal light"

As for the others, they're more or less balanced.

Some are faster, others are stronger, but i think they're about the same level.

 

[Hawkeye.]

Yes, I agree.

Tina is the one who has more raw power of all the heroes.

Next would Zidane, because of his Trance ability, and due to the fact that he was created with the purpose of causing mass destruction, as Garland's Angel of Death.

Cecil would be next, because he is a Paladin, an holy knight "bathed in eternal light"

As for the others, they're more or less balanced.

Some are faster, others are stronger, but i think they're about the same level.

I agree with you on the Zidane point. However, I'm not so sure about Cecil. If we're judge someone's power based on how much "light" they have, then Warrior of Light would take that one pretty easily. I think the references to "light" are more about the kindness of the characters than their power though, but I could be wrong.

That being said, I'm more inclined to believe that Cloud & Squall are tied for third.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Light isn't just kindness. Light is an element. A force that Warrior of Light, Onion Knight, and Cecil wield in combat. It's what the spell Holy is made of. Likewise Darkness, is a force too that can be wielded and used in combat.

I honestly can't say which hero is the strongest because there's no real consistency or structure that depicts the heroes on being on a clearly defined level above all others. While Terra is extremely powerful, when she goes crazy during her Destiny Odyssey and is about to rampage, Cloud happens to be around and fights her to the point where she calms down and is able to regain her senses. I mean, there's no real set standard.

However, I will say that in terms of leadership, experience, and maintaining the group, Warrior of Light is seen as the de facto leader of them all. They look up to him and he squares off with most of the villains of Final Fantasy in his search for his Crystal, and even the villains know not to fuck with him. Clearly there's something special about the first hero of Final Fantasy.

 

[Hawkeye.]

Light isn't just kindness. Light is an element. A force that Warrior of Light, Onion Knight, and Cecil wield in combat. It's what the spell Holy is made of. Likewise Darkness, is a force too that can be wielded and used in combat.

This is what I get for looking at a Birth by Sleep trailer before I write something in a Final Fantasy thread.

I honestly can't say which hero is the strongest because there's no real consistency or structure that depicts the heroes on being on a clearly defined level above all others. While Terra is extremely powerful, when she goes crazy during her Destiny Odyssey and is about to rampage, Cloud happens to be around and fights her to the point where she calms down and is able to regain her senses. I mean, there's no real set standard.

I always assume that gameplay is canon. So I don't consider it to be much of a stretch that Terra won the fight by an inch or atleast was starting to get the upper hand before she calmed down.

However, I will say that in terms of leadership, experience, and maintaining the group, Warrior of Light is seen as the de facto leader of them all. They look up to him

All of them? I could've sworn that he's a boss fight in Squall's story mode & that after the fight, WoL's down on a knee while Squall is posing like he's America's next top model.

and he squares off with most of the villains of Final Fantasy in his search for his Crystal, and even the villains know not to fuck with him. Clearly there's something special about the first hero of Final Fantasy.

If they know not to fuck with him then why the does he have the most boss fights?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Their abilities in gameplay are canon but you can't state that each result or "victory" in the game is what really happens in the story. Warrior of Light defeats Sephiroth in gameplay but afterwards, Sephiroth is not only unharmed but states the fact that while he is strong, Cloud is the only one who can beat him. Likewise, while the requirement of Terra's storyline is beating Cloud in gameplay, the storyline result is that they fought until Terra finally regained her senses. Cloud isn't shown exhausted or hurt at all from the ensuing fight. If Cloud was on the losing end, he'd have shown exhaustion or fatigue, like Firion does or Mateus did when he went toe-to-toe with Jecht.

Ahh yes, that's right, about Warrior of Light and Squall. Well, their sparring match was a test of Squall's resolve since Warrior of Light was dubious of Squall's tactic of going it alone and not traveling with the group. But Squall barred his fangs and surprised him obviously. But that doesn't show any anger or ill blood between them. It was a test. They weren't seriously trying to kill each other.

He has the most boss fights because he goes in looking for the villains

He instigates most of the fights.

 

[Hawkeye.]

Their abilities in gameplay are canon but you can't state that each result or "victory" in the game is what really happens in the story. Warrior of Light defeats Sephiroth in gameplay but afterwards, Sephiroth is not only unharmed but states the fact that while he is strong, Cloud is the only one who can beat him. Likewise, while the requirement of Terra's storyline is beating Cloud in gameplay, the storyline result is that they fought until Terra finally regained her senses. Cloud isn't shown exhausted or hurt at all from the ensuing fight. If Cloud was on the losing end, he'd have shown exhaustion or fatigue, like Firion does or Mateus did when he went toe-to-toe with Jecht.

Fair enough point. It still seems strange though that Terra has to absolutely destroy Cloud in gameplay & get "FINISHED" to appear on the screen(Painful cry & all) only for him to be walking around just fine afterward. You'd think they'd come up with something a little more creative for situations like that like they did for the Beatrix Fights in FF IX.

Ahh yes, that's right, about Warrior of Light and Squall. Well, their sparring match was a test of Squall's resolve since Warrior of Light was dubious of Squall's tactic of going it alone and not traveling with the group. But Squall barred his fangs and surprised him obviously. But that doesn't show any anger or ill blood between them. It was a test. They weren't seriously trying to kill each other.

I don't think they were trying to kill eachother either. That doesn't change the fact that Squall was clearly the victor of their sparring match though. It was actually nice to see that WoL isn't as invincible as he seems at first glance.

He has the most boss fights because he goes in looking for the villains

He instigates most of the fights.

The guy has a short fuse for a Holy Knight.