New forum for member feedback

[Ⓐaron]

I have read this post over several times to try to make it as clear and constructive as possible, and have heavily revised it multiple times from its original form (which is why some of these quotes are so old), but I cannot be sure nothing I've said won't offend someone, so I'm just going to post it with a caveat that I'm sorry in advance if I've said something that people take as a personal attack or otherwise inflammatory. It is not my intention to provoke or upset anyone, and if my words convey such a meaning then I did not think them through fully. I just want to resolve this as constructively and peacefully as possible.

Also what I'm getting from this thread is that previously we were encouraged to report posts that bother us now
we're only supposed to report if it's something the mods give a shit about???

No one said, at any point in this thread, that we "don't give a shit" about any of this. If anything, we have said exactly the opposite. We have offered, on several occasions in this very thread, to modify the rules precisely because this has made people so angry and creeped out.

I don't have a problem, if enough of the forum thinks we should do this, with going forward evaluating future jokes with the criterion, okay, some people will read this as a rape joke because of its subtext, and so it should be considered a rape joke. I also don't have a problem, if enough of the forum thinks we should do this, with going forward evaluating future jokes by saying that if a joke implicates someone as the perpetrator of a criminal act, it should be considered to be at their expense just as much as if they were the victim. But as far as I'm aware, we've never done that before, so it would represent a major rule change.

And at any rate, if we go forward calling everything that implies rape a rape joke, and saying that maybe it should be warned, then there have been probably thousands of rape jokes in this forum's history. How do we deal with the similar comments that are bound to be posted in the future?

Do we just warn the ones that offend people? That's extremely subjective, and it's really not fair to anyone, because there's no definitive way of predicting what will offend people other than asking them outright, and for that matter there are too many people who might get offended to ask all of them outright every time. And, for that matter, it won't keep them from getting offended, which means that if we really want to stop people from being offended, even asking people will carry potential consequences, which means that people simply won't ask, and it will have a chilling effect on potentially offensive jokes. Maybe that's a good thing. I don't know. But I don't think introducing subjectivity into the rules is the way to go.

Warn all of them? That would completely change the culture of the board. Do people want that to happen? It can happen if enough people are in favour of it. I don't like a lot of the jokes made here myself, but I'm not sure this is the answer.

Ignore them? Obviously people are too appalled for that to be a workable solution.

Should we go forward with my "trigger warning" tag idea? I honestly don't see any downsides to this, apart from the pain in the arse of typing [tw]*[/tw] every time you want to make a potentially offensive joke. But maybe there are some I haven't seen. I'm undoubtedly biased because I brought this idea up myself, but ontd_political has a similar system for all its offensive content and it seems to work for them.

I don't know what the answer is. Enlighten me. I don't want to spend another ten pages arguing about why we fucked up. We agree we fucked up, and we want to rectify the solution. I want to come to a consensus about what should be done going forward to ensure that no one ever gets this uncomfortable on this forum again. Maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but you've got to have some goal to work towards.

If you have a better solution, I'd love to hear it.

so if a member genuinely creeps me out and i'm uncomfortable talking to him it's still on me to confront him myself and tell him to stop

No one on staff has ever said that. Mako did say that the report post system shouldn't be used for this purpose (and I don't even agree with him, to be honest, and neither do several other staff members), but he didn't say that staff wouldn't be happy to help you through other channels of communication. Creating such channels is precisely why we opened the new private feedback forum, and you are always, as ever, welcome to PM any staff member you wish about resolving disputes with other members, including staff.

You dont make offensive triggering jokes towards someone you know isn't comfortable with you and don't defend it when they get offended.

Who is saying anyone should make offensive/triggering jokes, and who is saying the post was in any way defensible? I have repeatedly stated that it is a stupid, offensive joke, and that he should not have made it. That has been my opinion from the moment I saw the post, even before the post report was made. I am certain the rest of staff agree with me.

Hence I made the report in hopes of someone on staff could at least tell him to cut it out.

That's... basically what I did? I told him that it was a really, really fucking stupid idea. Which basically carries the connotation that he shouldn't do it again. Should I have been even more direct? If that's necessary, I will be in the future.

the overall mocking tone of the thread in staff

I'm not going to deny that there were quite a few posts in there that are unfair (and I did not like the fact that they were made in the first place), but I do not think it is fair to describe the thread as having an "overall mocking tone", and I think someone who would describe it that way is maliciously attempting to discredit staff. Most posts in the thread take the problem quite seriously, and go over the problem of how to deal with your complaint as effectively as possible without creating undesirable precedents or contradicting established rules.

 

[Madame Mayor]

Haven't read everything so sorry if what I'm about to say is a repeat or has already been shot down.

The only thing I can really think of is that people in general should watch who they make jokes to, especially sexual ones. Not saying we need to suddenly become a not fun forum, but if you're going to make a joke directly related to another member or their post, make sure it's a member who you feel comfortable with and you know is comfortable with you. Maybe this is common sense, but I guess it needs to be said.

If a situation does occur, I don't think infractions or bans are necessarily the way, but that mods should act as the inbetweens. One member reports post or PMs mod, saying they didn't appreciate what was said and don't feel comfortable contacting said member directly (for whatever reason I think there's lots of legit reasons for this). Mod transfers the message. If we are all adults then the original poster understands and we move on. Everybody says the wrong thing sometimes without realizing how someone else will react. It just happens. I guess you can consider it a verbal warning if anything to just be a little more... respectful? Not the exact word I want to use but I think you get what I mean. Either way, it's not about breaking a forum rule, it's about the fact that not everyone gets along. This is the reality of these forums and the world. But just because you don't get along with someone doesn't mean you need to butt heads with them either on a regular basis just because neither of you are 'breaking a rule'.

tldr I think mods in situations like these should act as mediators and that people should be allowed to voice these concerns even if it's not as black and white as a rule being broken. Not that I think everyone should solve every problem this way, but there are many reasons why you wouldn't want to contact the person directly.

no infractions or bans (unless it gets to the point where it's happening on a regular basis and is falling under the label of harassment/bullying), just verbally letting the poster know that their post made someone else feel uncomfortable and to be more careful how you word things next time.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Right. There's no elegant way to start this, so I'm going to say that the reason I'm doing this is because in general, I do honestly believe that one should apologize and try and patch things over with people they have offended. I'm also doing it because I believe very strongly in not being a hypocrite, and after the big stink I made about people trying to resolve their issues with people by actually talking to them, I'd better do that myself.

The reason this has taken so long? Well, I don't know if the leaker told you this, but I really felt like it would do no good. I felt like my olive branch would be rejected outright, that my apology would be seen as insincere, simply because I am me and it has already been decided who I am, what I meant, and my motivations behind doing things. Things that have been said here haven't really helped that impression much, I'll be honest. I've gone everywhere from sympathy to rage to paranoia over the way this entire fiasco has been handled.

But like I said, I do believe in trying to apologize and in working out differences.

I am sorry that what I said offended you. It was not my intent to offend, to trigger, or disturb you. I stand by my word that I didn't intend any malice, didn't intend any thought of rape to enter into the joke, dark though it was, but I also won't deny that it can be seen that way, since it has. And again, I'm sorry.

But I also want to say, this goes a lot deeper than just this one incident. I've been labeled me a creeper. I'll admit, as a result, my impression of you has soured considerably as well. Like I said, I figured you'd just slap my hand aside without even considering what I was saying, and it's taken me some time to get over that apprehension even though I know the right thing to do it talk it over and make amends.

So obviously, something went a bit pear shaped between us. I have absolutely no idea where and you have never explained it, so maybe we can talk together, figure out where all the bad blood began, and try and figure out out how to make shit better.

So, yeah, no one told me to apologize, I'm under no orders, no shaming, no threats. Me.

We can continue this in public, we can do it through PM. We can take it off forum entirely. But I do think we need to talk.

 

[looneymoon]

Aaron - I thanked your post because it at least addressed the stupidity of telling people not to report posts that bother them.

No one said, at any point in this thread, that we "don't give a shit" about any of this. If anything, we have said exactly the opposite. We have offered, on several occasions in this very thread, to modify the rules precisely because this has made people so angry and creeped out.

I haven't asked for that and imo it seems rather drastic. All I ever wanted was maybe an apology, like another member was given. The idea of placing a rule stating "don't make uncomfortable comments to someone you don't know/don't get along with that well" seems to really underestimate the ability of the members to use judgement.

Sometimes you make a joke. Sometimes people don't like it. If that happens, face it like an adult. That's life.

Having a huge in-depth analysis of every slightly offensive thing said to anyone seems really silly. If someone gets offended by someone else, just tell the person who committed the offense to apologize. If they refuse to comply, then it's likely they're being needlessly stubborn and belligerent, which would at least warrant an infraction. Is that really so hard?

Do we just warn the ones that offend people? That's extremely subjective, and it's really not fair to anyone, because there's no definitive way of predicting what will offend people other than asking them outright, and for that matter there are too many people who might get offended to ask all of them outright every time. And, for that matter, it won't keep them from getting offended, which means that if we really want to stop people from being offended, even asking people will carry potential consequences, which means that people simply won't ask, and it will have a chilling effect on potentially offensive jokes. Maybe that's a good thing. I don't know. But I don't think introducing subjectivity into the rules is the way to go.

Offensive shit is going to happen no matter what policy you put in place. People are going to get offended and there's no stopping that.

The only things the mods need to do is to at least try to get the offending party to apologize in a mature and professional manner about the offense. Their personal opinion on the legitimacy of the offense is completely irrelevant if there is offense taken. The mods need not excercize any sort of judgement in determining what is or isn't offensive, be it through a set of rules and criteria or otherwise. That's the kind of attitude that led to a lot of this in the first place.

Should we go forward with my "trigger warning" tag idea? I honestly don't see any downsides to this, apart from the pain in the arse of typing [tw]*[/tw] every time you want to make a potentially offensive joke. But maybe there are some I haven't seen. I'm undoubtedly biased because I brought this idea up myself, but ontd_political has a similar system for all its offensive content and it seems to work for them.

I don't see anything wrong with this. Though couldn't someone just go [ spoiler = trigger warning rape ]? Not to undermine the idea since I don't see how it could hurt.

That's... basically what I did? I told him that it was a really, really fucking stupid idea. Which basically carries the connotation that he shouldn't do it again. Should I have been even more direct? If that's necessary, I will be in the future.

Yeah except there's no way I would have known that if it weren't for the fact that I knew what was going on in the private thread.

GODDAMNIT BROOKE YOU BEAT ME TO IT.

 

[looneymoon]

Ryu, I will respond to your post in a moment. I just wanted to leave a quick note that I do appreciate it a lot. I just wish it came before tensions had to boil to such levels.

 

[Flintlock]

Like I said, I really don't think we need any additional restrictions, including "trigger warning" tags. Even if they were implemented, how would we know when to use them? Anyone can get offended by anything. If there is going to be an official list of subjects which need to be put behind the tags, who will be responsible for putting it together, and what will the criteria be? I hope there are going to be more details about how it will work before it is brought in.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Like I said, I really don't think we need any additional restrictions, including "trigger warning" tags. Even if they were implemented, how would we know when to use them? Anyone can get offended by anything. If there is going to be an official list of subjects which need to be put behind the tags, who will be responsible for putting it together, and what will the criteria be? I hope there are going to be more details about how it will work before it is brought in.

We wouldn't move forward without speaking to you guys anyway.

 

[Flintlock]

We wouldn't move forward without speaking to you guys anyway.

Okay, thanks for the reassurance.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Just in case anyone cares, I'm gonna be heading off for dinner in a moment, and after that I may or may not be back on before I head to sleep, so if someone wonders why I might not respond until tomorrow, that's why.

 

[Zee]

before i get into more stuff i just want to say i think the trigger warning tag is a really good idea? not that i would expect everyone to tag every single slightly offensive joke they could possibly make, but say for example you are posting a copypasta of a news article dealing with rape that's really intense, you could tag it. i have no idea if anyone on the forum has epilepsy but it could be used to tag bright flashing gifs if need be. or generally disturbing, creepy, or gore filled pictures that one might not want to scroll by. (so you could do it like tw=gore/rape/etc?)

it seems like a useful thing to have idk
i make post

 

[looneymoon]

I'm not going to comment on the apology part of the reply because that's all that was really needed to end this situation. I accept it and will remain civil as possible through this post.

But I also want to say, this goes a lot deeper than just this one incident. I've been labeled me a creeper. I'll admit, as a result, my impression of you has soured considerably as well. Like I said, I figured you'd just slap my hand aside without even considering what I was saying, and it's taken me some time to get over that apprehension even though I know the right thing to do it talk it over and make amends.

So obviously, something went a bit pear shaped between us. I have absolutely no idea where and you have never explained it, so maybe we can talk together, figure out where all the bad blood began, and try and figure out out how to make shit better.

I don't really think there's bad blood so much as I don't react well with the way you conduct/portray yourself. It's not like I fly into fists of rage every time I see you post. I'm not looking for a caliginous relationship here I'm not really into filling that quadrant.

While I admittedly get really frustrated and skeeved out by you a lot of the time, I don't think there's actual ill-intent behind it. At the same time, I think in order for us to get along well it would require one or both of us to change how we are. Which is simply unfair to either party. To put it bluntly - I honestly don't care about you enough to see you change your behaviour to something more in line with my standards. That's the harsh truth.

I generally like to think people don't intend to hurt or alienate others, but hey what can you do. It's just part of human nature. Some people just don't endear ourselves well to others.

And it's cool if you think I'm a big bitch or whatever. Not putting words in your mouth, it's just that I've been coming off a huge one this entire thread. I'm probably coming off as one in this reply. That's cool is that's something you don't have to like about me. That goes for everyone - I'm actually surprised none of my posts got reported/infracted.

I don't really care either way. It'd be nice if the entire world liked me, but obviously that is never going to happen for anyone ever.

Once again, I accept your apology. It came off as genuine and sincere and I commend you for that. And if I ever do run into you in any part of the internet again, I'm willing to remain civil. In fact, I thought I had been up until this point. But if I've ever directed something to you that you didn't like, I'll be happy to own up to it if you just let me know.

anyways tldr; yeah it's cool i'll move on but we're still not bros or anything.

and i'm still fucking mad at the mod team

 

[Ryushikaze]

Ryu, I will respond to your post in a moment. I just wanted to leave a quick note that I do appreciate it a lot. I just wish it came before tensions had to boil to such levels.

It's partly because they were boiling that it took so long. I needed time to compose myself.

I'm not going to comment on the apology part of the reply because that's all that was really needed to end this situation. I accept it and will remain civil as possible through this post.



I don't really think there's bad blood so much as I don't react well with the way you conduct/portray yourself. It's not like I fly into fists of rage every time I see you post. I'm not looking for a caliginous relationship here I'm not really into filling that quadrant.

While I admittedly get really frustrated and skeeved out by you a lot of the time, I don't think there's actual ill-intent behind it. At the same time, I think in order for us to get along well it would require one or both of us to change how we are. Which is simply unfair to either party. To put it bluntly - I honestly don't care about you enough to see you change your behaviour to something more in line with my standards. That's the harsh truth.

I generally like to think people don't intend to hurt or alienate others, but hey what can you do. It's just part of human nature. Some people just don't endear ourselves well to others.

And it's cool if you think I'm a big bitch or whatever. Not putting words in your mouth, it's just that I've been coming off a huge one this entire thread. I'm probably coming off as one in this reply. That's cool is that's something you don't have to like about me. That goes for everyone - I'm actually surprised none of my posts got reported/infracted.

I don't really care either way. It'd be nice if the entire world liked me, but obviously that is never going to happen for anyone ever.

Once again, I accept your apology. It came off as genuine and sincere and I commend you for that. And if I ever do run into you in any part of the internet again, I'm willing to remain civil. In fact, I thought I had been up until this point. But if I've ever directed something to you that you didn't like, I'll be happy to own up to it if you just let me know.

anyways tldr; yeah it's cool i'll move on but we're still not bros or anything.

and i'm still fucking mad at the mod team

I didn't expect we'd be bros. I just expected we'd talk, to each other, about our shit. And we've started doing that, so that's okay by me.
I just want it to keep happening. Not just for you and me, but for everyone to try and talk to people first. I really do feel that a lot of the forum tensions, between everyone, between mods and members, mods and mods, and members and members has come from the fact that we aren't talking to each other.
I asked Serah when I apologized to her to please talk to people in addition to sending a note to staff or filing a report. And I repeat that here, publicly, to everyone involved. Talk. You don't have to talk right away, I totally understand it's hard to do at times. Get an advocate if you have to, just, seriously, open up a dialogue.

Forums are for talking. Just talk.

 

[Winter]

god i miss out on everything

 

[looneymoon]

lol mod thread complaining about leaks

maybe you shouldn't have shit-talked in the first place

sorry you're mad at people calling you out on your bullshit

edit: also HEY IT'S CHELSEA

 

[Celes Chere]

maybe if you shouldn't have shit-talked in the first place

It's like if you catch two people gossiping and they act offended that you were spying on them. If you talk badly about someone, it's bound to bite you in the ass one way or another. That's what i think, anyway. ^^;

 

[Dashell]

OMG there's a Gargoyles thing goin on here? FUCKING AWESOME. I love Demona! Who else do we have?...

er... I mean... yeah... good to talk it out.. good job guys

 

[looneymoon]

It's like if you catch two people gossiping and they act offended that you were spying on them. If you talk badly about someone, it's bound to bite you in the ass one way or another. That's what i think, anyway. ^^;

Yeah really.

I like how they're saying that it's not cool to go revealing stuff in the staff section. Which I would agree if it was the case where people's sensitive materials/reports were being revealed

but no it's because they're fucking mad that it became apparent they're saying rude-ass shit about people.

Good job staff. You have absolutely every right to feel indignant (here's a hint that was sarcasm).

 

[Ⓐaron]

The outrage is more over the fact that people selectively leaked shit in an attempt to make us look as bad as possible than that there was any leaking at all. If people had had a full picture of what actually goes on in the staff section, then I am fairly sure that people would have been, if not completely fine with it, then at least not as agitated as they got. However, telling someone that, for example, Mako posted something rather sarcastic and inflammatory, without apparently telling them that Tennyo immediately rebuked him for it and he immediately apologised, is just incredibly shitty behaviour that does no one any favours whatsoever.

 

[Dashell]

Which is why I, personally, really was hoping to be able to see the report. I'd like to get the full picture for myself

 

[Ⓐaron]

Well, as I said, it discusses too much apart from the report itself (such as members' personal issues with each other) to be fit for public consumption. If any of its contents were to be revealed it would have to be heavily redacted, and that's probably not much better than not revealing anything at all.

 

[Cookie Monster]

I think if Rishi wants the report public, it should be made public. Aki's, Omega's, and Mako's business in that thread are already out in the open. The rest of it is just a long, drawn out, boring as fuck conversation that went no where.

 

[Lex]

Wow. Two hours. That's how long it took me to read to this point. I'm not going to post anything controversial since it seems like the topic at hand has finally at least partially come to a close, however I feel the need to commend a few people for keeping their cool and talking with reason in the face of some bad tudes. Namely, GLD, Octo, Fangu, Flint and Sprites.

Which just totally solidifies my choices in the mod suggestion thread.

 

[Ⓐaron]

I think if Rishi wants the report public, it should be made public. Aki's, Omega's, and Mako's business in that thread are already out in the open. The rest of it is just a long, drawn out, boring as fuck conversation that went no where.

Not even close. There are discussions of plenty of other members you didn't mention, and much of it is not public. I don't want it public, either, and I'm not sure any of them would either.

 

[Dashell]

Personally I'd just like to know if those who know about the "bashing" were simply told "There's bashing" or if they actually SAW it with their own eyes

 

[Ⓐaron]

I have no idea.

I should add that another reason staff are upset about the leak is because it has potentially compromised the integrity of post reports. The identity of reporters is supposed to be anonymous, and as far as I know staff have had a policy of not revealing reporters for a long time (although sometimes they have been guessed, and there is nothing we can do about that). However, it is entirely possible that this will not remain as the case now that, apparently, several people have seen inside the staff forum.