Overwatch

[Cthulhu]

I was very much impressed with Warcraft 3's opening cinematics, esp. the first bit was (to me at least, at the time) photorealistic. But I thought the same of Starcraft's cinematics (mostly because flames and shit), and those haven't aged very well. Compare you're self:

 

[Geostigma]

lol the Warcraft 3 reminded me how sort of tiny Infernals used to be. It's kind of interesting to see there evolution through out the games and wow xpacs.

They're featured briefly in the Legion trailer and are huuuuge lol

 

[Cthulhu]

It's not like Warcraft was ever good at sizes / ratios,

 

[Hisako]

The StarCraft ones had excellent pacing and atmosphere (see: Brood War opening) and still hold up because of the composition, imo

Overwatch looks like they're finally fulfilling their Pixar fantasies, which is good on them! It certainly looks like a passion project.

 

[FallenAngel]

So there's been a rather big controversy on the Overwatch forums concerning one of Tracer's poses.
Started a couple days ago, is already up to several hundred posts(check here http://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20743015583?page=1) and shows few signs of stopping.

TLDR:
One guy feels one of Tracer's poses(which has her looking over her shoulder) is too sexualized. Thread stays remarkably civil. Developer responds and says they'll take the pose out. Thread explodes. Media takes notice. By today it's already all over the (digital) news.

If you don't feel like venturing into the hornet's nest just to see the totally NSFW sexualized pose of Tracer looking over her shoulder......here you go:

As for my personal opinion on this, I don't see the pose as being sexually suggestive and don't get what the drama is about. I'm also generally opposed to pointless content removal.

She's literally just standing there. The only thing that could be considered suggestive in the first place is that she's wearing a body-hugging jumpsuit, but no one's complaining about that so I guess that leaves nothing. Weird planet we live on.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Well, Black Widow has a similar pose but she's much more of the femme fatale type character, so it suits her. It doesn't suit Tracer as much because her sexuality isn't a part of her character, and I thought that Jeff Kaplan was pretty clear in his post about it, and especially in his follow-up post when the thread was re-opened.

We'll replace the pose. We want *everyone* to feel strong and heroic in our community. The last thing we want to do is make someone feel uncomfortable, under-appreciated or misrepresented.

Apologies and we'll continue to try to do better.



****************************************************************************
(Thread was closed, which likely sparked off the "rage" and was then re-opened with this post)
****************************************************************************



Well, that escalated quickly…

While I stand by my previous comment, I realize I should have been more clear. As the game director, I have final creative say over what does or does not go into the game. With this particular decision, it was an easy one to make—not just for me, but for the art team as well. We actually already have an alternate pose that we love and we feel speaks more to the character of Tracer. We weren’t entirely happy with the original pose, it was always one that we wrestled with creatively. That the pose had been called into question from an appropriateness standpoint by players in our community did help influence our decision—getting that kind of feedback is part of the reason we’re holding a closed beta test—but it wasn’t the only factor. We made the decision to go with a different pose in part because we shared some of the same concerns, but also because we wanted to create something better.

We wouldn’t do anything to sacrifice our creative vision for Overwatch, and we’re not going to remove something solely because someone may take issue with it. Our goal isn’t to water down or homogenize the world, or the diverse cast of heroes we’ve built within it. We have poured so much of our heart and souls into this game that it would be a travesty for us to do so.

We understand that not everyone will agree with our decision, and that’s okay. That’s what these kinds of public tests are for. This wasn’t pandering or caving, though. This was the right call from our perspective, and we think the game will be just as fun the next time you play it.

If it isn’t, feel free to continue sharing your concerns, thoughts, and feedback about this and other issues you may have with the game, please just keep the discussion respectful.

Thanks,

jeffrey

(btw, unlocking this thread. please continue the discussion here)

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[Geostigma]

I think part of the reason it really blew up is because Blizzard and Jeff have been really back and forward with the community regarding changes, balance etc.

Like if someone presented a really well made point about a change they would talk about it with the community and really flesh it out. It felt like a community thing. They would even release videos with the change logs explaining what was up. It was a really refreshing way to handle the process and made the community feel involved.


In the case of this change though it was no back and forward process. It wasn't the community coming together in mass agreement either. It was pretty much one guy saying this flat butt pose it sexual for my tweens eyes pls change, and Blizzard did it just to not have to deal with SJW's without doing their usual process.

It certainly didn't help that Jeffs response was several hours later.


Over all it's not a huge deal. If they are telling the truth and they always intended to change it then fine. They dropped the ball with internal community consistency but no big deal.

If they never intended to change it and decided t just to avoid pissing off the SJW hate machine well

 

[FallenAngel]

Well, Black Widow has a similar pose but she's much more of the femme fatale type character, so it suits her. It doesn't suit Tracer as much because her sexuality isn't a part of her character, and I thought that Jeff Kaplan was pretty clear in his post about it, and especially in his follow-up post when the thread was re-opened.

What sexuality though? I guess I'm either blind or have already been desensitized by tv but to me she's just standing there. There's 0% sex appeal in just...standing in place.

If the complaint had been about her skintight jumpsuit I could at least see where they're coming from(the "right" attire can make someone suggestive without them posing or moving at all...if your pants look like they were sprayed on, you don't need to slap your rear end to call attention to it), but again that specifically isn't a problem apparently.

Supposedly it's really just the pose...but I've since checked out a vid on Tracer's poses and I, for the life of me, can't see how "Salute" is much different from "Over the Shoulder" as far as Tracer's butt is concerned. You could even argue it's more emphasized since she places a hand on her hip. One's ok, the other's not? I don't get it.

Over all it's not a huge deal. If they are telling the truth and they always intended to change it then fine. They dropped the ball with internal community consistency but no big deal.

If they never intended to change it and decided t just to avoid pissing off the SJW hate machine well

One can only hope.
It's not something that would turn me off of buying a game I otherwise like(doesn't affect gameplay after all), but I've developed a certain amount of paranoia concerning stuff like this ever since the Pillars of Eternity incident.

One guy/girl on twitter/tumbler/facebook or a game's forum shouldn't be able to get content censored/cut/taken out with a single post when the majority of the playerbase is for keeping it in(if one person points something out and then everyone agrees it should go, fair enough). Especially not in today's society of the perpetually offended, since there will always be someone who doesn't like something.
Give them a hand, soon they'll take your arm and all that. There need to be safeguards against this kind of stuff.


PS: How come Blizzard cares so much about the characterization of its female heroes but does nothing when their animal heroes are objectified?
I call bias!

 

[X-SOLDIER]

What sexuality though? I guess I'm either blind or have already been desensitized by tv but to me she's just standing there. There's 0% sex appeal in just...standing in place.

If the complaint had been about her skintight jumpsuit I could at least see where they're coming from(the "right" attire can make someone suggestive without them posing or moving at all...if your pants look like they were sprayed on, you don't need to slap your rear end to call attention to it), but again that specifically isn't a problem apparently.

Supposedly it's really just the pose...but I've since checked out a vid on Tracer's poses and I, for the life of me, can't see how "Salute" is much different from "Over the Shoulder" as far as Tracer's butt is concerned. You could even argue it's more emphasized since she places a hand on her hip. One's ok, the other's not? I don't get it.

It's the fact that in the "Salute" pose, she's looking forward. The intention of that pose is that she's interacting with someone looking at her from the front, and not someone staring at her ass. Even in the name, the "Over the shoulder" puts the viewer behind her, and is putting the emphasis on the viewer looking at her skin-tight attire. That's why it IS literally just the pose.

On top of that, it's rather close to the classically abhorred T&A comic book pose that's used to perpetually sexualize female characters. This isn't a case of SWJ-ness or Cry-bullying Devs into making changes. It's the fact that there's a lot of subtle sexualization of female characters all the time, and this pose strays closer to that for Tracer who isn't a character who's defined by her sexuality – That doesn't mean that she can't have attractive outfits and other things, it's that her character isn't built around drawing attention to those aspects of her appearance, like they do in that pose.

Again, contrast that with Black Widow where her sexuality is very clearly a part of her character, and while she also has attractive outfits, it's not an issue when she draws attention to her feminine features because that's an intentional facet of her character.




X

 

[Geostigma]

To add to this point

On top of that, it's rather close to the classically abhorred T&A comic book pose that's used to perpetually sexualize female characters. This isn't a case of SWJ-ness or Cry-bullying Devs into making changes. It's the fact that there's a lot of subtle sexualization of female characters all the time, and this pose strays closer to that for Tracer who isn't a character who's defined by her sexuality – That doesn't mean that she can't have attractive outfits and other things, it's that her character isn't built around drawing attention to those aspects of her appearance, like they do in that pose.

If we consider consistency with the kit and themes of the toons Widowmaker still has sexualized themes in the game that *so far* seem to be staying.
If Blizzard was trying to do this to dodge SJW bullets I would expect Widowmaker to have been changed much sooner than Tracer imo.

Over all the continued existence of Widowmaker in her current theme does seem to support Blizzards claim that they only changed Tracers pose for more in line themes.


edit:

Just woke up and barely realized that your earlier points were in reference to Widowmaker and not Black Widow. It is to early for me to try and use my brain i'll go wake myself up lol

 

[FallenAngel]

Even in the name, the "Over the shoulder" puts the viewer behind her, and is putting the emphasis on the viewer looking at her skin-tight attire. That's why it IS literally just the pose.

Isn't that quintessentially contradictory though?
The name of the pose, how it puts the viewer behind her(I don't really think that counts in a 3d game anyways) and her skin tight jumpsuit are factors in this, but the problem is literally just the pose?

I remain convinced that if Tracer wasn't wearing "might as well be sprayed on" pants with color coding, but rather something that fit the rest of her outfit(i.e. pilot gear, what with the goggles and flight jacket) no one would be saying anything. Which directly contradicts it being just the pose that's problematic.

On top of that, it's rather close to the classically abhorred T&A comic book pose that's used to perpetually sexualize female characters.

I take it you are referring to the Boobs-and-Butt pose as defined by tvtropes? I feel that's being unfair towards the poor guy who animated that pose, since there are, well...no boobs on display. There's none of the required superhuman spine twisting contortions to show off both boobs and butt, thus it can't, by definition, be a B&B pose. Not close either(IMHO at least).

Again, contrast that with Black Widow where her sexuality is very clearly a part of her character, and while she also has attractive outfits, it's not an issue when she draws attention to her feminine features because that's an intentional facet of her character.

I get that the game features different types of female characters to offer different types of gamers something to connect to. I just remain unconvinced that for a shooter that's still in beta characterization is already so finalized(as compared to say TF2 where characters show new facets to their personality years after the game came out) that people can say "that's out of character!" when apparently the people developing the game didn't think it was...it takes quite a but for an animated pose to make it into the game, from concept art over wireframe models, checking back with the art lead and character desinger...stuff usually doesn't just make it in when you don't think it's much good anyway. What Jeff said sounds more like damage control 101(obvious reaction in that situation of course) rather than something he is really convinced of himself(too many stock formulations I've read elsewhere before). Again, subjective of course(isn't most everything? ).

For what it's worth, the drama finally made me catch up on trailers and gameplay vids. It's been mentioned that Blizzard knows their cinematics(Warcraft/Diablo/etc.) and that's definitely true with this game as well.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Just woke up and barely realized that your earlier points were in reference to Widowmaker and not Black Widow. It is to early for me to try and use my brain i'll go wake myself up lol

Nope, I wrote Black Widow but meant Widowmaker, because I was making this post while talking about other things, so I'm the source of the confusion.

Isn't that quintessentially contradictory though?
The name of the pose, how it puts the viewer behind her(I don't really think that counts in a 3d game anyways) and her skin tight jumpsuit are factors in this, but the problem is literally just the pose?

No it's not contradictory, and yes, it's literally just the pose. Tracer's pants aren't intentionally sexualizing her. They're skin tight because that's what athletic people wear for running - which is the other part of her costume that is paired with the pilot's gear on her upper body. It's like the reverse of Lucio.

The reason that characterization is so important for Overwatch is because there isn't a big Story campaign. Everything you learn about the characters is based on how they're portrayed with their quotes, abilities, poses, etc. That's why this is important for her character, and why they changed it.

Again, if it was about SJW issues of sexualizing female characters Black Widow Widowmaker would've been changed, too – but she wasn't. She's an overtly sexual character:

I get that the game features different types of female characters to offer different types of gamers something to connect to. I just remain unconvinced that for a shooter that's still in beta characterization is already so finalized(as compared to say TF2 where characters show new facets to their personality years after the game came out) that people can say "that's out of character!" when apparently the people developing the game didn't think it was...it takes quite a but for an animated pose to make it into the game, from concept art over wireframe models, checking back with the art lead and character desinger...stuff usually doesn't just make it in when you don't think it's much good anyway. What Jeff said sounds more like damage control 101(obvious reaction in that situation of course) rather than something he is really convinced of himself(too many stock formulations I've read elsewhere before). Again, subjective of course(isn't most everything? ).

tbqfh this whole thing sounds like people are reading WAY too much into it, and the thread being abruptly closed & giving people a reason to scream about SJWs (which is the current way to guarantee internets dramaz) is the only reason anyone cares.

Ultimately all that matters is if the pose they replace it with is MORE appropriate to her character than the previous one, then it was a good enough reason to make the change, regardless of whether or not you find the previous one sexual.

For what it's worth, the drama finally made me catch up on trailers and gameplay vids. It's been mentioned that Blizzard knows their cinematics(Warcraft/Diablo/etc.) and that's definitely true with this game as well.

Proof that there's no such thing as bad publicity.




X

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Speaking of which - Widowmaker's animated short is coming out on the 3rd: http://us.battle.net/overwatch/en/blog/20080160/




X

 

[Joe]

I don't have anything to add but this.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Stupid Sexy Flanders...




X

 

[Geostigma]

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Holy shit, that was SOOOOOOO damn good.




X

 

[X-SOLDIER]

And just to close the book on the whole pose thing, here's the adjustment that they went with.

I think that this comment from Kotaku's article says it best:

I’m going to be serious and say that this is just all around an improvement.

The new pose has more flare to it, it fits her personality, its not some canned imagine from every Hollywood blockbuster and it still has a sexy/playful side to it.

I dunno, when I look at the new pose I really do believe Blizzards response of “we were going to change it already.”

X

 

[Geostigma]

It doesn't just fit her personality it fits her theme over all so so well.

Tracer in the lore is actually a pilot and pin ups like that always ended up as decals of fighter planes etc. So a degree it would make sense that she would emulate a pose that shows up on fighter planes all the time as her victory pose.

They really nailed it lol.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Moar Skins

X

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Dem Overwatch Tactics Doe

It seems like there're a lot of cool opportunities for risky and hard-to-pull-off stuff like this.





X

 

[Geostigma]

I need this game to be out already lol.

 

[Joe]

I think my beta key got lost in the mail.

;-;

 

[Geostigma]

Blizzard hates me and never gave it up.

it's not like I bought HotS, their free to play moba. Or own all of their games on Bnet... or prepurchased legion.

I'm throwing money at you Blizzard gimme 1 beta invite pleaaaaaaaaase.

 

[Joe]

Blizzard hates me and never gave it up.

it's not like I bought HotS, their free to play moba. Or own all of their games on Bnet... or prepurchased legion.

I'm throwing money at you Blizzard gimme 1 beta invite pleaaaaaaaaase.

But they have you right where they want you.