SPOILERS Predictions for Part 2? (*Open Spoilers for Part 1*)

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Ite, you love Shakespeare, right? Like me. Still, we can't deny that he's become less accessible over the centuries. What was once the most populist form of entertainment now feels as if it's reserved for the intellctual elite. The metre, the language, the jokes we can't get because these plays were written in a culture not our own for people who are not us.... All these things prevent Shakespeare being easily appreciated by people living today. That's an inevitable result of the passage of time. FFVII OG is experiencing the same phenomenon, ony speeded up the way everything is speeded up these days, exacerbated by the fact that it's a visual medium and changes in graphics have been nothing short of phenomenal over the last 30 years.

So what do you do with Shakespeare? Do you just keep re-writing it, generation after generation, in "modern" language, like No Fear Shakespeare? Or do you re-stage it, keeping his words but making the plays exciting and accessible in other ways? Do you preserve the plays like flies in amber, or use them as inspiration for transformative works like "Throne of Blood" and "She's the Man" and "West Side Story"?

(By the way, you are the Charles and Mary Lamb of Final Fantasy.)

If you put creative people in charge of a project, they are going to be creative with it.

 

[Odysseus]

as if it's reserved for the intellctual elite

...

FFVII OG is experiencing the same phenomenon, ony speeded up the way everything is speeded up these days, exacerbated by the fact that it's a visual medium and changes in graphics have been nothing short of phenomenal over the last 30 years.

It's times like these I feel the need to remind people that I played this game for the first time not all that long ago (2012) and that people are playing through it even more recently in the wake of the remake. I've seen plenty of people posting that they played it for the first time after playing the remake and that they loved it. Final Fantasy VII is a game with lasting appeal, it was a top seller on Switch's online shop for a while and that wasn't just a bunch of nostalgic 30/40 somethings. Kids are still playing this game, it's not some impenetrable classic that can only be appreciated by the "intellectual elite" and a bygone generation. I don't want to be rude, but you guys can be so out of touch sometimes.

 

[Tetsujin]

Okay this will sound really fucking stupid but bear with me. It is FF7, but it isn't, but it is.

 

[Ite]

(By the way, you are the Charles and Mary Lamb of Final Fantasy.)

*spittake* Okay that cracked me right up. I don’t know whether to be honoured or insulted lmao

I’ve said this before, but FF7R ain’t no 10 Things I Hate About You. It’s Pride & Prejudice & Zombies but merely advertised as Pride & Prejudice, and none of these analogies really work because none of them are the same writers releasing an updated version in the same medium with the express purpose (intentional or no) of supplanting the original.

It’s not a “transformative work” it’s the Final Fantasy VII remake. Lower case r because that’s what people will hear when you tell them on the street. It’s not an “adaptation” or a “sequel” it’s the Final Fantasy VII remake. It will outlive FF7, I guarantee it, the only reason ppl are playing the original is the same reason ppl went out and bought ASoIaF after season 1. It’s because despite being “a complete game” it’s obviously only the first act of the story. Once all parts are out, it’s dead in the ground, if it isn’t heading there already. You think after playing 3-5 video games the thing you want to do is play through a shittier looking boring version?

I’m not trying to put FF7 on a pedestal here, I think the old bastard deserves to be replaced. But not with this crap.

Edit: Ody I know what they did and why, I just think their reason was a crock of shit. There are a million solutions to the “make it a complete game dilemma” that don’t involve all that bullshit and you know it.

 

[Odysseus]

Edit: Ody I know what they did and why, I just think their reason was a crock of shit. There are a million solutions to the “make it a complete game dilemma” that don’t involve all that bullshit and you know it.

I write out all that nonsense and all I get is an addendum lol. I know there were plenty of ways they could have done it differently, but as we spent a long and obnoxious amount of time arguing about previously, they were never going to do this any other way.

 

[Ite]

I write out all that nonsense and all I get is an addendum lol. I know there were plenty of ways they could have done it differently, but as we spent a long and obnoxious amount of time arguing about previously, they were never going to do this any other way.

Well there’s not much to say I’m afraid. We’ve done this dance before and I see your point of view, it’s just... a different whole wave than the one I’m riding. (I also had an irl thing come up and am only now posting while half passing out <3)

That’s kind of what I meant when I said that I’m more excited by the prospect of FFXIV at this point, and it makes me more “over” 7R than ever. Obviously though I’m still salty lol, or else ya couldn’a do-si-do’d me like that

EDIT: this is gonna be a paragraph responding to a few things you wrote that I actually had responses to but by the time I got to the end of all the other posts I didn’t think were worth saying but you took the time to say those things so the least I can do is PWN YOUR ASS jk

 

[Odysseus]

I actually had responses to but by the time I got to the end of all the other posts I didn’t think were worth saying but you took the time to say those things so the least I can do is PWN YOUR ASS jk

I'm tired of keeping my mouth shut all the time and your attitude about the remake kinda pisses me off so I'm a ready for a good ol' internet rumble lol.

 

[Cat on Mars]

 

[Ite]

your biggest concern with the remake, at least going by your initial response, is that it will supersede the original game in the eyes of the general public. You don't like that because of how substantially different the remake is, and that those differences are things you generally don't like, am I right?

More or less. The majority changes I quite liked, although there were contentious points (the Shinra is the only one who can bring down Shinra narrative feels a little defeatist, perhaps to discourage eco-terrorism in the 21st Century?) that I find interesting subjects of debate, that don’t necessarily devalue it as a replacement of the OG. A lot of additions were gaps that I filled in my novel back in the day (right down to a new SOLDIER character to act as a Part 1 boss) and they were all done better than my novel (unless you are of the opinion that I am infallible and I shit gold, an opinion that is only held by me and my dog). So to say that I don’t generally like the changes isn’t quite accurate, but to say that I hate the FUCKERY would be accurate. In terms of changes, one-of-these-things-is-not-like-the-others, one-of-these-things-is-not-like-the-others, one of these things drives a semi truck through not only the OG’s legacy but also 7R’s internal cohesion. To say that Harbinger is a natural endgame boss for a story about an eco terrorist group fighting a corporate dictatorship in a dystopian city is... just... inconceivable!

Well here's the thing, the fact it's so different and people like you being afraid of the remake replacing the original is ironically exactly why it won't happen.

Gonna interject here and say that if it were good I would be thrilled that it was replacing the original. Replacing the original is a neutral act, and one that I know is inevitable. I’m not afraid of whether the successor is worthy, I can see for myself that it is not, so I’m not afraid, I’m pissed lol.

The stigma of it being different will follow this game forever, it's not like a OOT3D or the RE2 remake which just generally improve on the original. The fact it's different will make it distinct, just like Tres said, and people will inevitably want to check out the original to see what the big deal is, it's already happening. The legacy of the remake will be different from the original, one won't just replace the other.

I think I just plain disagree with you and others on this one. Time will have to tell.

 

[Torrie]

*grabs popcorn and reads kilometres of text*

TLS people, I adore you. Seriously. You escalate just about everything for the sake of escalation even if everyone's point of view has already been made perfectly clear—I don't really have any other explanation, lol. But maybe that's what forums are for. "To each their own" has never been a concept to adhere to in internet arguments.

 

[Cat on Mars]

To say that Harbinger is a natural endgame boss for a story about an eco terrorist group fighting a corporate dictatorship in a dystopian city is...

...totally normal when the story is about ghosts and spirit energy and the corporation profits from said spirit energy, that's is what THE PLANET is made of, and the very reason Barret's "THE PLANET is dying!" is almost his catchphrase.
What's a time ghost or a thousand given this setting?

*retreats and steals some of Torrie's popcorn*

 

[Odysseus]

although there were contentious points (the Shinra is the only one who can bring down Shinra narrative feels a little defeatist, perhaps to discourage eco-terrorism in the 21st Century?) that I find interesting subjects of debate, that don’t necessarily devalue it as a replacement of the OG.

Honestly one of the big reasons I thought a remake would never happen was because events like the September 11th attacks brought terrorism to the forefront of our minds in a way it wasn't back in the 90's. I wonder if those changes were concessions they needed to make in order for the project to fly at all? They already had to tone down some things in the original due to some gas attacks in Japan around the time of development.

one of these things drives a semi truck through not only the OG’s legacy but also 7R’s internal cohesion.

I think the big difference in our perspectives is this idea that the remake is going to damage the original's "legacy." Maybe it's because I grew up with VII in a time post compilation, but VII never had the most "prestigious" reputation in the first place even among its fans. The things you're saying about the Remake now are the same things people said about the compilation back then, that it ruined FF7. People seem to generally like the remake much more than the compilation though, and the only people I really see complain about it are people like you. The newcomers I've introduced to it liked it just fine, whispers and all, and people who couldn't get into the original liked it for being more accessible to the #modernaudience and bringing the characters to life in a way the original couldn't. Of course, there are also people like me who are huge fans of the original and have been very critical of Square in the past that enjoy the remake just fine. I don't think the original has been tarnished at all, if anything I'm glad FF7 is back in the public consciousness. As I mentioned in my little rebuttal to Lic up there, people still play the original FF7, including people who played the remake first. I think you're exaggerating the issue.

To say that Harbinger is a natural endgame boss for a story about an eco terrorist group fighting a corporate dictatorship in a dystopian city is... just... inconceivable!

If it came out of nowhere I would agree with you, but it was set up very early on that something was going on beyond the scope of Shinra, and that was paid-off at the end. The theme of fighting against inevitability is sprinkled all throughout the game, most strikingly in moments where something that would radically change the story as it was were about to happen. Do I think the whispers were necessary to tell this story? FUCK no. I would have probably preferred the game you wanted, but the fact you're treating it like a catastrophe that will ruin FFVII forever, and that Square tricked and deceived us is getting obnoxious. If anything, the whispers set up that the scope of this conflict is going to be much larger than a ragtag bunch of Eco-terrorists fighting evil corporation, and that the life of the Planet itself is on the line here. Originally Cloud's statement that this was a fight for the future of the planet seemed pretty out of left field at the end of Midgar, and the fact that Barret goes along with him instead of focusing on the threat Rufus poses is just kinda plot convenient. Now Barret and the rest really know that Sephiroth is an existential threat they can't ignore. Maybe it wasn't the best final boss for this game, but it sets up the future conflict to come just fine.

Gonna interject here and say that if it were good I would be thrilled that it was replacing the original. Replacing the original is a neutral act, and one that I know is inevitable. I’m not afraid of whether the successor is worthy, I can see for myself that it is not, so I’m not afraid, I’m pissed lol.

You might not think that but you aren't the authority here. I AM. No, but as I mentioned, plenty of people like this game just fine, even acknowledging the bad spots. The fact you've let a dumb plot device completely ruin the experience for you is your own problem, stop treating it like such a huge thing.

I think I just plain disagree with you and others on this one. Time will have to tell.

I can already say that people are checking out the original. I've seen enough "just beat ff7 for the first time!" with accompanying pictures of the switch version on Reddit to know that people are still regularly picking the original up. If they don't have separate legacies, then they will be remembered together. People will not forget 1997's Final Fantasy VII.

 

[Ite]

Well aside from the fact that I was one of the people who were railing against the Compilation, I don’t really know what you mean by “people like you.” Even the coolest and least precious heads here on TLS were agog at Chapter 18, and I mostly lurked for that early outrage.

So I guess yeah I’ll go on being one of the grumps in the corner of the FF fandom, like I’ve always been. Authority, though? I think you misunderstand how I perceive myself. I may argue without using words like opinion (because they are redundant) but all I have is ever only my own taste. FF7 is to my taste, and 7R was on track but veered needlessly into the extremely-not-to-my-taste zone. That’s all.

Enjoy the popcorn. I’m going to bed.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Some people still play the OG, Ody, just as some people - quite a lot, in fact - enjoy going to see Shakespeare's plays and even read him for pleasure. But there are just as many people, maybe more, who would never play the OG/watch Macbeth because it's just too old fashioned/slow/boring. Many people have voiced this opinion about the OG on twitter and elsewhere, so I'm not just making it up. Obviously there will always be a subset of fans who want to access the original and enjoy it when they play it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The Remake will literally not replace the original 10, 20, or however many years. FFVII, the PSone original, is firmly entrenched in it's placement in history, and Square would never let it die. It holds a uniquely special place,and purpose within the overall understanding and establishment of the FFVII saga. Hell, Final Fantasy in general. I do not understand how that would even happen, it can't just be memory hole'd away. It's a classic, it's the core.

You think after playing 3-5 video games the thing you want to do is play through a shittier looking boring version?

Yes! People enjoy doing precisely that! Why do you think retrogaming exists?

And FFVII is one of the most popular retro RPGs. FFVII Remake will establish it's own greatness and popularity, but that won't erase FFVII's existence. This isn't a zero sum game. People will continue to find value, interest and entertainment from the original. That's not going away. It would make no business sense for them to do away with it.

Fans may play the Remake first, or wait to finish the OG later, but that's just life and the nature of change through time. And fans of FFVII were coming to this story/franchise from outside the OG already, with other works that spun off of FFVII. So this is not even a new phenomenon. It's the inevitable conclusion of time progression, subsequent adaptive works, and just changes in culture.

 

[Odysseus]

Well aside from the fact that I was one of the people who were railing against the Compilation, I don’t really know what you mean by “people like you.” Even the coolest and least precious heads here on TLS were agog at Chapter 18, and I mostly lurked for that early outrage.

I'm saying that The compilation never managed to sink the original, so why would this? Overall i would say the remake had a much better reception than stuff like Advent Children or Dirge did. Eventually the fandom learned to embrace those spin-offs along with the Original, and I don't think the remake is any different. Yes there was a pretty bad snap-back with chapter 18, but given time people will be able to come to accept it for what it is.

Authority, though? I think you misunderstand how I perceive myself. I may argue without using words like opinion (because they are redundant) but all I have is ever only my own taste.

I was just using some aggrandizing language for fun, I don't think anyone on TLS has that much of an ego. I just think some of your statements are pretty hyperbolic.

Some people still play the OG, Ody, just as some people - quite a lot, in fact - enjoy going to see Shakespeare's plays and even read him for pleasure. But there are just as many people, maybe more, who would never play the OG/watch Macbeth because it's just too old fashioned/slow/boring. Many people have voiced this opinion about the OG on twitter and elsewhere, so I'm not just making it up. Obviously there will always be a subset of fans who want to access the original and enjoy it when they play it.

I mean, that's just the passage of time. People aren't going to be interested in the same stuff forever. That said, I'm almost certain FF7 is one of the most played PS1 games these days, and Mr. Strife is hardly an unknown figure. I think you guys are overlooking how many people have played FF7 just because Cloud was in smash brothers. So what if a lot of people are not interested in playing it? A lot of people are. More than enough for Square to keep the game easily available anyway. why isn't tactics on switch I want it.

 

[kathy202]

Yeah, I don't think the OG's going to be replaced. It's like films, there's one version of something in the 1960s, and then another in the 1980s, and another in the 2000s and so on (sorry, I can't think of a title right now that has been remade so many times but I'm sure there's one out there). None of them really replace the other, and the not-so-good ones get forgotten over time.

I'll admit the Whispers still feel out of place to me even in a world as crazy as FF7's, though I'm not sure they're at a level so bad that the remake wouldn't stand the test of time the way the OG did. Subsequent releases though... It feels like they've created too much room for themselves to screw up. Either way, I'll still be throwing my money away on pretty looking characters because I'm just that shallow.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'm saying that The compilation never managed to sink the original, so why would this? Overall i would say the remake had a much better reception than stuff like Advent Children or Dirge did. Eventually the fandom learned to embrace those spin-offs along with the Original, and I don't think the remake is any different. Yes there was a pretty bad snap-back with chapter 18, but given time people will be able to come to accept it for what it is.

And let's look at the broader spectrum of FFVII fans beyond our borders here. Chapter 18 wasn't some spectacular failure that resulted in fans going Evangelion on Square Enix, or end with fans whipping out pitchforks and torches. The majority of players who played to the end got hyped to fight Sephiroth. They enjoyed the spectacle. They enjoyed the fun, they enjoyed the uncertainty, and they enjoyed the craziness. This meme that the ending somehow tanked or ruined the FFVII Remake brand or something, isn't real. The ending didn't land like Sonic 06 or Forces. Nothing has sunk the original or came close to it. Because ultimately, the Remake exists because of the Compilation. And the Compilation has successfully done one thing, and that's fueling continued interest in FFVII and the OG. Nothing has smothered it.

 

[Odysseus]

he majority of players who played to the end got hyped to fight Sephiroth. They enjoyed the spectacle. They enjoyed the fun, they enjoyed the uncertainty, and they enjoyed the craziness.

Yes these things. We can talk about poor narrative cohesion all day long but that fight was really damn... COOL. That's probably the best Sephiroth fight we've ever gotten outside of a Kingdom Hearts game lol. I enjoy not knowing what might happen, it's exciting! I understand why people would have rather SE had just left well enough alone, but we're here now. We might as well enjoy it.

I'm going to bed now, enjoy the popcorn

 

[Makoeyes987]

Yes these things. We can talk about poor narrative cohesion all day long but that fight was really damn... COOL. That's probably the best Sephiroth fight we've ever gotten outside of a Kingdom Hearts game lol. I enjoy not knowing what might happen, it's exciting! I understand why people would have rather SE had just left well enough alone, but we're here now. We might as well enjoy it.

I mean, I get why some wouldn't. There's a myriad of reasons why this path would cause tension and confusion for a number of fans, especially if they don't see it coming. Especially, if you feel like the original is best told with the least number of changes. Especially if you don't find modern RPG tropes of this era that entertaining. Or if you just wanted a good ole' fashion retelling of the same story. There's an understandable divergence and reasoning behind why one may prefer the other. It just so happened, the other outcome became reality, and now it becomes a different exercise for the audience in question. Rather than the Remake going the same safe path of entertainment that it had established, this has now become a new experience where the burden of the authors, is now on them to tell a new compelling story through the framework of FFVII. It's no longer just enjoying the story that's already been done. It's now maybe enjoying a story that's similar to what was done, but will have changes that may or may not be good.

The likelihood of a fan enjoying this is correlated to how much they previously liked what has been done before with previous FF works in the modern era. That's probably the best determinant of this. If someone was optimistic of what Square's been doing in the modern era, they're probably optimistic with this. If they weren't, then they're probably not here either.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

The Compilation might not have smothered the OG, but boy has it changed how I see the OG as a whole. I got to the Compilation late enough that by the time I played the OG, I had already watched all the cutscenes of BC and CC. I have never had a "nothing but the OG" version of FFVII in my head. That there are people who prefer the OG without the Compilation shocked me my first few years here... now I know exactly how those guys feel. I will never be able to see Aerith's death the same way now that I know that somehow, memories of how she ended up have turned up in Cloud and even Aerith herself in the past.

Like... whatever gravitas the OG had is now lost on me. I really can't take it seriously knowing what kind of game the Remake is. Sure Aerith dies... and we're in a world with some kind of spiritual time travel that will let her trying again to not die. Sephiroth has died at least three times and is getting a do-over still, why shouldn't she?

A very common complaint I've seen about the Compilation as a whole is that it dilutes the impact of the OG in a lot of ways... and the Remake feels like one more dilution of it. The OG has never felt like it mattered so little to the story of FFVII's world as it does now.

 

[looneymoon]

I was gonna say, FF7O will always have cred because retro cool points. It also benefits from being the original entry. I don't really believe it's gonna be replaced at any time ever really.

My personal issue with Remake (+ let's include The Compilation as a whole in this) is more akin to original Star Wars Trilogy vs Prequel/Sequel Trilogies. It's unfortunate that something that something so special and influential is forever going to be associated with stuff that's imo meh at the best of times, and embarrassingly cringey at the worst. The original isn't exactly ruined by association, but the association is still something people are allowed to be irritated about. Especially given that we're all nerds here, and probably take our interest in FF7 in some part as a reflection of ourselves.

I generally am on Ite's side when it comes to Remake takes, but it's been a few a months now and I'm kinda more whatever about it. I think my reasons differ from his, but I think we share a similar POV. I guess he just happens to be crazy enough to take that energy and do his own version of Remake I've already pretty much decided that shit's dumb, and feel validated enough not really dwell on it that much.Then again, I probably outgrew the franchise the day Advent Children first taught me that things I am excited for can be bad Still, some people like to commiserate by complaining, and I don't really see an issue with allowing room for that so long as it stays in line.

But I get it, people generally don't like negative nancies

also dang you guys type fast

 

[Obsidian Fire]

That's a great example Looney. It's one thing to hear Luke decide he wants to be a Jedi in the Original Trilogy when you don't have a frame of reference for what the Jedi Order was really like. It's another when you know how flawed the Jedi Order was in the Prequel Trilogies. It's yet another thing when you know how the Jedi Order will turn out in the Sequel Trilogy.

Now replace "Luke want to be a Jedi" with "Aerith's character arc" in FFVII.

 

[Makoeyes987]

If anything has diluted the OG, it's weirdest form of dilution that paradoxically amplifies and magnifies FFVII's cultural significance and popularity. Stories and franchises can become rotted and decayed through systemic poor management of it's story, but that's not at work here. FFVII continues to impact people 100% in 2020, and find new fans over and over again. New fans feel touched and impacted by the same relevant events in the OG, even within the contemporary media landscape that has it's sitting next to the likes of Kingdom Hearts, Advent Children, Crisis Core, and more. After over a decade and a half, none of those entries, regardless of anyone's feelings on them, has negated, harmed, or adversely impacted FFVII's continued long-term legacy or emotional impact, as demonstrated through it's enduring and resilient popularity. It still inhabits the same place as one of the most popular and beloved RPGs Square has under it's belt. It's popularity has grown. It's characters, soundtrack, and everything else continuously inhabits the top ranks of FF popularity polls and manifested video game pop culture. When fans of Final Fantasy are surveyed, the same core themes and moments in FFVII are overwhelmingly referenced as having resonated with them, and leaving them touched and amazed. If anything, it's become more relevant today. They find that experience powerful and amazing, and comparatively speaking, nothing has been done so far that has utterly nuked that powerful and established base of relevance, impact and overall good will.

It would take something 100x worst than the CD-I Legend of Zelda games to so much as nick FFVII at this point. Disney's mishandling of Star Wars was bad, but that hasn't tanked the original trilogy. Well, not completely, it has been hurt, admittedly. But it wasn't just the movies that did that. If anything has diminished Star Wars, it's the toxic nature of geek culture that lashed out and sunk it's teeth into it, coupled with Disney's utter incompetency at charting a meaningful narrative course to fully utilize it's characters, have a team of writers on the same page for what should have been a continuous story, and the horrible treatment of it's actors. That combination of utter disinterest created that outcome, and nothing close to that is at work here in FFVII now.

 

[looneymoon]

Yeah, and to clarify: I'm not attempting to compare the qualities of one franchise to the other. I just think people are allowed to feel whatever they do when say... watching the epic showdown between Luke and Vader in Episode V, while also hearing Hayden Christensen crying about the younglings in the back of their head.

I dont want to accidentally change this topic into a discussion about Star wars because that was not what I was trying to get at.

edit: Gdi it was Ewan who cried about the younglings wasnt it? Hayden's thing was not liking sand