Putting the bullshit behind us

[Max Payne]

We do it because we get affected by whatever happens on the forum, and we want to weigh in because we as members of the community, feel we should - and we care! When someone gives the impression of being really hurt, well yes, there's an instinct in me to try to mediate with my POV, if I feel what I'm thinking hasn't been said in the debate.

No you don't. This one instance affected the site because we let it get out of hand. But when it comes down to it, no one should have gotten involved but staff and the offended members in question and MAYBE a mediator if the two people are too prideful or butthurt. I dont give a fuck if you're new or not, you shouldn't get involved. I'm including myself in that.

Just because you see something on the board happening doesn't mean you should get involved, but it's partly our own fault for letting it leak out so much. As far as this drama in particular goes, it had no real affect on the board itself as far people just posting and carrying on with their usual duties goes.

In other words, this is not as big a deal as it was made out to be. I don't approve of people with limited knowledge of events and people getting involved in a situation either and making inflammatory and unnecessary comments that further exacerbate an already sensitive situation.

That's my stance on this shit anyway.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

My stance is that if you want people to stay out of it you shouldn't hold the conversation in the public forum in the first place. Keeping folks out now, whether you agree they had a right to comment in the first place or not, is just gonna make for more bad blood. I won't speak for anyone else, but if I'm told to fuck off, should I even want to attend this chat, it'll be my blood going bad.

 

[Max Payne]

My stance is that if you want people to stay out of it you shouldn't hold the conversation in the public forum in the first place.

I agree with this to an extent. However, just because you shouldn't get involved, it doesn't mean you shouldn't know what's going on. Transparency and all that. How things transpire between staff and members is a concern for all so they know how things will go down when it comes to them.

Keeping folks out now, whether you agree they had a right to comment in the first place or not, is just gonna make for more bad blood.

That is just silly. No one is harmed by staying out of drama that isn't their concern or doesn't affect them at all. For the longest I TRIED to do that and I got along pretty fine until asshats started posting stupid secrets and I lost my composure and made things a lot worse BEFORE I decided to start the initiative to get members and staff all together to talk.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I agree with this to an extent. However, just because you shouldn't get involved, it doesn't mean you shouldn't know what's going on. Transparency and all that. How things transpire between staff and members is a concern for all so they know how things will go down when it comes to them.

But they are also members, and so how stuff goes down between we the staff and you all the members includes them because they are members. We also need to deal with issues between members as well.

That is just silly. No one is harmed by staying out of drama that isn't their concern or doesn't affect them at all. For the longest I TRIED to do that and I got along pretty fine until asshats started posting stupid secrets and I lost my composure and made things a lot worse BEFORE I decided to start the initiative to get members and staff all together to talk.

I disagree on this one. Folks ARE bothered by the drama because the drama was getting in the way of their enjoying the forum, and they should have a voice in resolving that, as well as their issues with individual members.

The way to deal with the issues of folks feeling like they are not being listened to is not to exclude folks from the discussion because that means that they are actually not being listened to.

 

[Max Payne]

But they are also members, and so how stuff goes down between we the staff and you all the members includes them because they are members. We also need to deal with issues between members as well.

That doesn't mean it's cause for them to personally throw their hat in the ring. Issues between other members separate from the matter had no place in that discussion either. It's one thing to be concerned but getting involved in personal disputes between members and staff? That's not something any of us should have done.

The two parties or however many people involved should have handled it and whatever other mods who are needed to mediate. That is how it should have been imo.

I disagree on this one. Folks ARE bothered by the drama because the drama was getting in the way of their enjoying the forum, and they should have a voice in resolving that, as well as their issues with individual members.

We had no real reason to get involved to begin with and their "voice" in resolving it only made things worse on both sides. Look at all of the trolling, shit talking and flaming that went on because everyone had to throw in their two derps.

They didn't even have to read that shit, plenty of members had no issue skirting by it and carrying on like usual but I'm supposed to believe there was NO way around it? That's nonsense. Hell I didn't even know so much was happening until people pointed it out to me.

As far as member's issues with each other go, that's a separate matter entirely and should have its own threads/discussions dedicated to it.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I agree with this to an extent. However, just because you shouldn't get involved, it doesn't mean you shouldn't know what's going on. Transparency and all that. How things transpire between staff and members is a concern for all so they know how things will go down when it comes to them.

Well on that I suppose I see what you mean and even agree to an extent. There is a difference in how we view this, though. See, if I see it happening, I try to understand it. If I try to understand it, then it effects me. If it effects me, and it definitely does especially as it effects people I know and hang out with, then I get to have a say in it. Should I exercise that and actually speak up? You say no, and I'd no doubt be in a better mood right now if I hadn't. So maybe you're right, maybe I shouldn't have said a thing. Maybe nobody outside of Rishi, Ryu, and the other mods should have.

But seeing Rishi's situation effected her friends. Seeing Ryu vilified for telling a freaking joke effected his friends. Seeing friends arguing effected other friends. You can't keep people out. Its a community. What happens to one, has some influence on others. Even folks who honestly give no fucks at all about Rishi OR Ryu (I doubt such a person exists but its possible) one way or the other can feel the effects of a big drama explosion oriented on them. So whether we were in it from the very start like Ryu, or came in later like I did, if its happening in public then I see no reason whatsoever to stay out of it if I think I have something worth adding.

That is just silly. No one is harmed by staying out of drama that isn't their concern or doesn't affect them at all. For the longest I TRIED to do that and I got along pretty fine until asshats started posting stupid secrets and I lost my composure and made things a lot worse BEFORE I decided to start the initiative to get members and staff all together to talk.

No offense, but bullshit. As I said, even if you are of the opinion that someone (for instance, me) should have stayed out of things, I didn't. I argued with folks. I know I must've pissed someone off or hurt someone's feelings cause poor Tenny had to give me a warning for insulting people. That's potential bad blood right there. I know I'm simmering still to this very moment (I was, in fact, feeling a bit better if somewhat melancholy until I read your gtfo post). Potential bad blood. Even if I genuinely shouldn't have gotten involved, I did. So yes, if I were to be excluded against my will, I'd be pissed.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well I definitely don't want you to feel excluded, GLD. You should be around to participate. I think Dac is just referring to the actual conflict and headbutting that may occur in these types of situations. You should definitely not feel excluded or anything, you're a valued member here too.

 

[Lex]

Who the hell jumped on you in that thread?

At this point I dont feel like anything is served by having a bunch of people putting in their 2 cents on drama that has fuck all to do with them. Shit just gets bloated and nasty.

I'm referring to everyone involved by the way, including people who might be my friends.

Unless you absolutely have to, people should just stay the fuck out of it.

CK did, but he's already apologised for it so it doesn't matter anymore. And I already explained that the only reason I came forward was because Lic already did after you said people need to come forward if they disagree or something along those lines. I've also already explained this twice.

I agree that nothing is served by people putting in their 2 cents and I've already explained why I posted. The post you're quoting now is one that's meant to act as an olive branch to other people, it's not supposed to annoy you.

 

[Max Payne]

Well on that I suppose I see what you mean and even agree to an extent. There is a difference in how we view this, though. See, if I see it happening, I try to understand it. If I try to understand it, then it effects me. If it effects me, and it definitely does especially as it effects people I know and hang out with, then I get to have a say in it. Should I exercise that and actually speak up? You say no, and I'd no doubt be in a better mood right now if I hadn't. So maybe you're right, maybe I shouldn't have said a thing. Maybe nobody outside of Rishi, Ryu, and the other mods should have.

But seeing Rishi's situation effected her friends. Seeing Ryu vilified for telling a freaking joke effected his friends. Seeing friends arguing effected other friends. You can't keep people out. Its a community. What happens to one, has some influence on others. Even folks who honestly give no fucks at all about Rishi OR Ryu (I doubt such a person exists but its possible) one way or the other can feel the effects of a big drama explosion oriented on them. So whether we were in it from the very start like Ryu, or came in later like I did, if its happening in public then I see no reason whatsoever to stay out of it if I think I have something worth adding.

So, because you're friends with the people that are involved you should have a say? I'm sorry but that's crap. There's a reason it's personal. Just cause you know someone, it doesn't mean you have a say, or that you even know the full score. A lot of people that got involved only had one side of the story, which colored their views on how to carry themselves in the discussion itself.

This was not a public issue but it was made such and because of that everyone felt the need to get involved.

But as far as the actual drama goes this wasn't as big a deal as it was made out to be.

You can easily keep people out of the drama. It was done before many members here even showed up, before everyone decided it was time to make a big deal out of everything and troll and be passive aggressive. It can be done again.

An issue between a mod and member isn't a community issue, especially when it comes down to personal disputes and shit.

No offense, but bullshit.

No, and you yourself proved me right when you got into it with Rishi.

As I said, even if you are of the opinion that someone (for instance, me) should have stayed out of things, I didn't. I argued with folks. I know I must've pissed someone off or hurt someone's feelings cause poor Tenny had to give me a warning for insulting people. That's potential bad blood right there. I know I'm simmering still to this very moment (I was, in fact, feeling a bit better if somewhat melancholy until I read your gtfo post). Potential bad blood. Even if I genuinely shouldn't have gotten involved, I did. So yes, if I were to be excluded against my will, I'd be pissed.

What exactly is bullshit? You yourself are proving me right.

It is silly to get upset about being left out of drama. No one is harmed by steering clear of drama. They are in fact worsened for getting involved. You proved this yourself.

 

[Max Payne]

CK did, but he's already apologised for it so it doesn't matter anymore. And I already explained that the only reason I came forward was because Lic already did after you said people need to come forward if they disagree or something along those lines. I've also already explained this twice.

I agree that nothing is served by people putting in their 2 cents and I've already explained why I posted. The post you're quoting now is one that's meant to act as an olive branch to other people, it's not supposed to annoy you.

I'm not annoyed.

I also forgot about Tony's post.

 

[Dana Scully]

I appreciate the urge to defend both your friends and the forum when shit like this happens. I really do.

But the simple fact of the matter is that unless you are one of the main players who instigated/moderated the dramas you will never have all the facts or be aware of all the underlying feelings. Trying to intervene in such a situation will almost always just end up making things worse - this latest batch of drama being a prime example. It's like trying to end a mexican standoff by sending in the army, and just leads to giant shit-flinging explosions and friendly-fire.

In cases where drama leads to tangents that affect the entire forum - for example, stuff like the trigger tag, or the definition of 'infraction' - then by all means, comment on those offshoots. But leave the core of the problem to the people who fully understand it.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

You know what? Fine. I'm so over this shit its not even funny.

 

[Max Payne]

If this was drama over forum policy or rule changing, or even if someone was calling for someone to be destaffed and banned or something I'd feel differently.

That is a community issue. But no, all this came down to one member and one mod and how that member was offended by that mod. This issue got bloated and over the top because the parties involved stopped being willing to try and get past shit, and then other people found out and got offended on behalf of those two people, then other people found out, and etc.

It became one big passive aggressive circle jerk. I'm not saying it was just the people who chose to get involved that made things worse, it was everyone. But by all of us dogpiling on this shit we only served to drag it out longer and in the process more people got hurt, offended, and generally rubbed the wrong way.

There's nothing we could have done about the two people getting upset at each other, but the ensuing clusterfuck, that was on us all.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I appreciate the urge to defend both your friends and the forum when shit like this happens. I really do.

But the simple fact of the matter is that unless you are one of the main players who instigated/moderated the dramas you will never have all the facts or be aware of all the underlying feelings. Trying to intervene in such a situation will almost always just end up making things worse - this latest batch of drama being a prime example. It's like trying to end a mexican standoff by sending in the army, and just leads to giant shit-flinging explosions and friendly-fire.

In cases where drama leads to tangents that affect the entire forum - for example, stuff like the trigger tag, or the definition of 'infraction' - then by all means, comment on those offshoots. But leave the core of the problem to the people who fully understand it.

At the moment, we have many core problems that need to be hashed out, and I don't want anyone who does have a problem or cares for the forum to feel their voice wasn't wanted or consulted simply because they were not directly involved.

Would things have been much better if none of this had escalated? Absolutely. But it has, and it's gotten its mess over a lot of the forum.

Plenty of folks feel like their voices aren't wanted. Some feel that the Mods aren't listening, but I don't want to make another set of members feel that way while we're addressing that issue.

 

[Max Payne]

Eh.

That's beside the point I'm trying to make. Opinions are needed and wanted on a variety of issues, but the prevailing sentiment is that everyone dog piling on a personal issue between a member and staff based off of hearsay isn't needed or wanted. At least on my part.

I'll go on record saying that my involvement wasn't needed,wanted, or even all that helpful.

 

[Ⓐaron]

I think both sides have a point here. The drama erupted essentially because both sides were not talking to each other, and having virtually everyone on the board getting offended on one side or the other's behalf not only did not help things come to a swifter resolution, but dragged things out far beyond what was necessary. I think nearly all of us deserve some blame for this.

However, the issue did begin to affect everyone as soon as it spilled out onto the forum, because by that point it wasn't just dealing with two members' dispute. There was also a large discussion about staff policy and how it fed into things. That is something that everyone deserves input into. Certainly, if people have misconceptions about what is going on, these should be hashed out in such cases, but beyond that, there's really no reason we shouldn't welcome everyone's constructive input into what can be done to make things run more efficiently and less dramatically.

I've read most of the thread, and will make (hopefully detailed) responses to individual posts later. I'm too exhausted right now to be of much use, and I've been rather ill today as well, which isn't helping. Will probably get lunch and then take a nap.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Eh.

That's beside the point I'm trying to make. Opinions are needed and wanted on a variety of issues, but the prevailing sentiment is that everyone dog piling on a personal issue between a member and staff based off of hearsay isn't needed or wanted. At least on my part.

I'll go on record saying that my involvement wasn't needed,wanted, or even all that helpful.

I don't disagree that people dogpiling on ANY issue between two people is a bad thing.

What I am saying is that said dogpiling has resulted in a lot of raised tempers, frustrated members, and general bad blood. We've started dealing with that. I don't want to exclude folks from this next chat partly because I don't want it to make the bad blood worse.

I don't want to tell anyone they are not wanted at this chat, I will not stand for anyone saying they are not wanted at this chat. I damn well want to make sure that the people have been made to feel unwelcome by this whole drama and even this current conversation feel welcome and feel like they actually have a voice here, partly because they're my friends as well, and largely because they damn well should have a voice.

 

[Max Payne]

However, the issue did begin to affect everyone as soon as it spilled out onto the forum, because by that point it wasn't just dealing with two members' dispute. There was also a large discussion about staff policy and how it fed into things. That is something that everyone deserves input into.

I might agree if that was actually how it had played out.

As it stood it was just the one minor issue inflated and beaten to death by everyone, and once people got offended, the claws came out and they did everything they could to cut everyone that got involved. There was no discussion man, it was a roast, and it wasn't even funny.

I don't want to exclude folks from this next chat partly because I don't want it to make the bad blood worse.

I don't want to tell anyone they are not wanted at this chat, I will not stand for anyone saying they are not wanted at this chat. I damn well want to make sure that the people have been made to feel unwelcome by this whole drama and even this current conversation feel welcome and feel like they actually have a voice here, partly because they're my friends as well, and largely because they damn well should have a voice.

That was never my point in saying any of this, in fact I don't think I even referenced the chat in particular. It was my idea to get everyone involved to begin with so I'm not going to begrudge anyone for doing exactly what I suggested.

I think I've said my piece. I'm going back into the cave I came out of.

 

[Dana Scully]

At the moment, we have many core problems that need to be hashed out, and I don't want anyone who does have a problem or cares for the forum to feel their voice wasn't wanted or consulted simply because they were not directly involved.

I have no problem with any member wanting to be heard or express their opinion on topics related to the forum. As far as I'm concerned more member input on forum matters leads to a better forum. But individual members and their drama =/= the forum. The only reason this turned into a forum-wide issue is because everyone dogpiled onto a topic they really didn't have any business in.

Would things have been much better if none of this had escalated? Absolutely. But it has, and it's gotten its mess over a lot of the forum.

No argument there.

Plenty of folks feel like their voices aren't wanted.

I obviously can't speak for everyone, but like I said earlier the more member input the better - for forum-related issues. Leave the personal matters to the persons involved. If some drama involves one of your friends, then by all means talk to them via msn or VM or PM or whatever, but making passive-aggressive posts in their defense, while well-intentioned, is not constructive.

I'm sorry that people feel like they're excluded; all I can say to that is to try and join one of the many streams or the IRC and just put yourself out there. Pretty much everyone here is happy and willing to talk to and get to know new people. God knows I was a noob here once who didn't know anyone and now I count several people here among my best friends. And I have the socializing skills of a dead fish

 

[Ⓐaron]

Well, I'd agree, the signal-to-noise ratio was way too low - there was way too much noise.

However, it wasn't all noise, even if at least 95% of it was. And I agree, once people got offended, they started getting passive-aggressive, and things went to shit immediately.

Basically, the poster of Secret #411 is a goddamn prophet.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I might agree if that was actually how it had played out.

As it stood it was just the one minor issue inflated and beaten to death by everyone, and once people got offended, the claws came out and they did everything they could to cut everyone that got involved. There was no discussion man, it was a roast, and it wasn't even funny.

I will mostly agree, though like Aaron, I'll say there were a few good points even among the claws and venom.

That was never my point in saying any of this, in fact I don't think I even referenced the chat in particular. It was my idea to get everyone involved to begin with so I'm not going to begrudge anyone for doing exactly what I suggested.

I think I've said my piece. I'm going back into the cave I came out of.

I'll just say that you have definitely made folks think they wouldn't be welcome at the chat, intentional or not. I'll leave it to them to come forward, unless they tell me otherwise.

I have no problem with any member wanting to be heard or express their opinion on topics related to the forum. As far as I'm concerned more member input on forum matters leads to a better forum. But individual members and their drama =/= the forum. The only reason this turned into a forum-wide issue is because everyone dogpiled onto a topic they really didn't have any business in.

Quite true. I just don't see any reason to exclude the periphery from the patching up, since we ALL need to talk about our brouhahas.

No argument there.

Das good, then.

I obviously can't speak for everyone, but like I said earlier the more member input the better - for forum-related issues. Leave the personal matters to the persons involved. If some drama involves one of your friends, then by all means talk to them via msn or VM or PM or whatever, but making passive-aggressive posts in their defense, while well-intentioned, is not constructive.

Passive aggressive anything isn't constructive. And I'm not entirely sure everyone weighing in on either side was being passive aggressive.

I'm sorry that people feel like they're excluded; all I can say to that is to try and join one of the many streams or the IRC and just put yourself out there. Pretty much everyone here is happy and willing to talk to and get to know new people. God knows I was a noob here once who didn't know anyone and now I count several people here among my best friends. And I have the socializing skills of a dead fish

Do not. You totally made a better show of yourself than Deady McTroutson at the debutante ball.

Well, I'd agree, the signal-to-noise ratio was way too low - there was way too much noise.

However, it wasn't all noise, even if at least 95% of it was. And I agree, once people got offended, they started getting passive-aggressive, and things went to shit immediately.

Basically, the poster of Secret #411 is a goddamn prophet.

What, my ego wasn't big enough already, now I'm a prophet?

 

[Max Payne]

I'll just say that you have definitely made folks think they wouldn't be welcome at the chat, intentional or not. I'll leave it to them to come forward, unless they tell me otherwise.

Welp, that's on them, not me.

If they're gonna lump that in with the point I tried to make about drama that has already transpired, then I don't know what to say.

Separate issues and separate points.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Welp, that's on them, not me.

Did we not just come from an 'own up to what you've said and how it comes off' incident?

If they're gonna lump that in with the point I tried to make about drama that has already transpired, then I don't know what to say.

Separate issues and separate points.

What you say was that you didn't mean to make anyone feel excluded.

 

[Max Payne]

Did we not just come from an 'own up to what you've said and how it comes off' incident?

So we're gonna compare two completely different situations now? I made how I felt about one separate issue clear, I even clarified that I didn't mean to say that people's opinions weren't wanted or needed on forum policy and actual board issues. That is why I proposed the group chat to begin with, and why I told mako to schedule another for whoever to attend.

What exactly are you reaching for here?

What you say was that you didn't mean to make anyone feel excluded.

I already said that in the walls of text that I posted. Maybe not in those exact words but I don't see why I would need to qualify it as exactly that.

 

[Tetsujin]

What, my ego wasn't big enough already, now I'm a prophet?

Are you of Bajor?