Repository of Debunked Rumors

[waw]

I think this may be a bit of an odd thread, but I didn't find one out there about this. I was wondering if we could collect our debunked rumors about FF7 lore, history, etc. I can list some I've come across and had debunked here. Maybe we can even source where the info came from. Something like this might help dispell misunderstandings about the lore. I'm sure there's a lot more out there than I know about, and maybe even some I still believe.

I'll start with some:
-Tsviets/Deepground were made with G Substance, just like Vincent. (perpetuated in early mistranlsations on FF Wikia)
-Turks got their name from their suits/a tailor in Junon (also FF Wikia)
-The Witch (FF8's Edea) led a Cult of Jenova in early FF7 drafts. (FF Wikia, Reddit, Youtube. Yes, Edea/Witch was originally designed for FF7, but the Cult I can't find any sourcing for).
-Red XIII is/was a Sephiroth Clone (Early Drafts somewhat support this, but it was a misunderstanding many fans had due to his number tattoo)
-Zack was The Man in the Pipe (a Sephiroth Clone) (source: early message boards I think)

What other misconceptions float around that you've encountered or yourself believed at one point?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

One persisent but debunked rumour is that Rufus spent his years of BC house arrest in Junon.

That Reno's last name is Sinclair. It's a perfectly good surname, but... Turks don't have surnames.

 

[Odysseus]

Damn I should have put "Reno Sinclair" on my iceberg, that's a pretty pervasive one even today.

Recently I heard someone claim that Barret getting ""killed"" by Sephiroth in Shinra HQ in the remake was a reference to a scrapped scene in the original where that would happen. I know he was up for consideration to die during the planning phase before they went with Aerith, but I'm pretty sure him dying in Shinra HQ is nonsense.

 

[JBedford]

No English fans played Before Crisis, so in the early years of the wiki the surefire to get something to stick was to say that Before Crisis said it. Most editors familiarity with Before Crisis came from the information on those articles, and most English FF fans got their information from the wiki rather than from the game itself. Now when someone comes to remove information it's like challenging everyone's fundamental understanding of the world.

Shalua made Barret's gun-arm is one example. This one actually originates from Wikipedia in September 2006, which was then C+Pd to FFWiki when its article was created. The statement vanished from Wikipedia in an article reshuffle, but remained on FFWiki until last year.

I don't believe the Shalua thing was added maliciously, so presumably it was fanon mistaken for canon or something. It did seem reasonable when Shalua is a scientist and has associatons with prosthetics, and her BC chapter takes place in Corel too.

 

[waw]

One persisent but debunked rumour is that Rufus spent his years of BC house arrest in Junon.

For the longest time, I thought he was housed at Healen Lodge as his sort of private retreat/house arrest until I read The Turks Are Alright.

I know he was up for consideration to die during the planning phase before they went with Aerith

A lot of characters were to die in the return to Midgar/Parachuting part from what I've read. But yeah, I've never seen anything about Barret dying to Sephiroth.

Shalua made Barret's gun-arm is one example.

Oh man, I remember that one! Yeah, there was a lot of bogus BC material floating around.

I remember a lot around DoC before it was released in the States, a lot continued to be persistent after it too, it seems. Like, Genesis being a prototype Sephiroth that was the First Soldier. Not accurate and based in misunderstanding!

 

[Eerie]

A lot of characters were to die in the return to Midgar/Parachuting part from what I've read. But yeah, I've never seen anything about Barret dying to Sephiroth.

I think Ody was referring to the time when they were deciding which character to kill, and they were hesitating between Barret and Aerith.

 

[Odysseus]

^yes that's what I was referring to.

Shalua made Barret's gun-arm is one example. This one actually originates from Wikipedia in September 2006, which was then C+Pd to FFWiki when its article was created. The statement vanished from Wikipedia in an article reshuffle, but remained on FFWiki until last year.

Jeez, only last year? The doctor who made Barret's arm appears in Case of Barret ffs.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Sakaguchi decided to kill off Aerith as a way to deal with the death of his mother (or as a tribute to her)...

Everything I've managed to find on FFVII's plot indicates Sakaguchi wasn't involved with anything to do with the story, he was only involved in *gameplay*. Nojima, Kitase and Nomura are the big plot guys.

There's several interviews on this very site that go into it...

@Cae Lumis Get in here... I know you have a bunch of these... many to do with the OG localization...

 

[Ite]

-Until Crisis Core was announced, Zack’s fanon surname was Knightblade. It showed up in dozens of fics in the pit, and forums too.
-Zack was the clone who killed Aeris
-Rufus killed Shinra Sr. and framed Sephiroth (there was a whole conspiracy theory about it)
-All members of SOLDIER have Jenova cells (this was due to a line of dialogue in the original game that explicitly says this /rolleyes)
-Related to that last point: Sephiroth was the first SOLDIER (I’m pretty sure this one was only debunked like two months ago)

 

[Cae Lumis]

- Sector 6 was said to have been damaged as a result of the fight between the Joint Turks-Avalanche fight against Zirconiade. This was not the case whatsoever even within Before Crisis itself, where Zirconiade manifested its own area above Midgar that the Turks had to enter and climb in order to actually encounter and fight the summoned monster.

- Its believed that Aerith absolutely had to die in order for Holy to be activated and succeed in combating Meteor, let alone control the Lifestream in order to push Meteor Back. All official sources including the Original Game had indicated that Holy had activated just fine prior to her death, and information on the Cetra state that the ability to manipulate and control the Lifestream came naturally to them. Far from needing to die in order to save the Planet, the opposite is true, Death didn't stop Aerith.

 

[Odysseus]

-Until Crisis Core was announced, Zack’s fanon surname was Knightblade. It showed up in dozens of fics in the pit, and forums too.

This is the best thing I've ever heard. Do you have any examples?

Never mind, I got it
http://www.zack-knightblade.bizhosting.com/

There are some quality fucking images on this blog holy shit.

Spoiler

Y2K was the shit

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Wait... don't go saying stuff is "debunked rumors" when later Compilation entries elaborate that they really are true... That kinda negates the point of the thread...

-All members of SOLDIER have Jenova cells (this was due to a line of dialogue in the original game that explicitly says this /rolleyes)

"All members of SOLDIER have Jenova cells" is confirmed as true in other places in the Compilation. Especially in the Ultimanias and CC.

Ultimania Omega Keywords (2005)

from The product of the project: Sephiroth
mass production of SOLDIERs required adults of sound mind and body who could be injected with Jenova's cells and exposed to mako,

from Jenova Relation 3: The Sephiroth Clones
The experiment's procedure -- which involved injecting cells taken from the headless body of Jenova into the subjects and exposing them to mako -- doesn't differ from the manufacturing procedure for SOLDIERs. The largest difference is that SOLDIERs are selected from a prime field, being strong of mind and body and able to withstand the experiment uninfluenced by Jenova's cells, whereas the Clones' fragile minds leave them as "portions" of Jenova.

from Successful work, failure work
As for the mentally and physically strong, carrying Jenova's cells inside their bodies will not cause them to receive Jenova's influence, and they will not become a puppet of Jenova like the Sephiroth Clones, but will instead become a SOLDIER possessing strength far beyond that of a normal human being.

from Lifestream Relation 3: SOLDIER
Shin-Ra's elite soldiers. The Turks scout to gather those who would be capable of handling being injected with Jenova's cells and exposed to mako

DC Official Complete Guide Term List (2006)

from SOLDIER
The private army of the Shin-Ra Company, bestowed with great power through being injected with Jenova’s cells and showered with mako.

FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Keywords (2007)

from SOLDIER
「 FFVII – BC – CC – LO 」

Those who are injected with Jenova cells, and are exposed to high concentrations of mako to be made into the ShinRa Company’s enhanced soldiers.

Crisis Core: FFVII – The Complete Guide Keywords Collection (2007)

Jenova Cells
The cells from Jenova used in the Jenova Project and SOLDIER surgical procedures. Those who have been injected with these cells undergo physiological changes such as improvement of their physical abilities and partially receiving Jenova’s abilities. However, mentally weak people are unable to withstand Jenova’s will, and it sometimes brings about mental abnormalities.

from SOLDIER Degradation
A symptom of a particular flaw inherit within the G-Series SOLDIERs and their copies. It is due to an imperfect integration of Jenova cells into their bodies, and the symptoms worsen as their genetic information is spread to other beings.

And finally, from the orriginal game which is what all the above entries are based on...

Cloud
You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy.
Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells......

If they *really* had wanted to change SOLDIER having both Jenova Cells and mako in the Compilation they could have, and they didn't. Instead, they doubled down on it repeatedly.

Related to that last point: Sephiroth was the first SOLDIER (I’m pretty sure this one was only debunked like two months ago)

The OG itself suggests this isn't the case. DoC flat out confirms that there were SOLDIERs in Midgar (specificly in what would become Deepground) before Sephiroth was born.

Ultimania Omega Keywords (2005)

from The Shin-Ra Company
Originally a weapons development company named “Shin-Ra Works,” it grew rapidly from the discovery of mako energy. Deploying crystallized mako energy (“materia”) and elite troops who had been directly exposed to mako energy (“SOLDIER”) to the battlefield, Shin-Ra guided to its end a great war that had engulfed the whole world in those days

This suggests that Shin-ra first came up with SOLDIER back in the days when it had first discovered mako... that is... back in the late 1950s or early 1960s. A full seventeen years before even Jenova was discovered, let along Sephiroth had been born.

DC Official Complete Guide Term List (2006)

Deepground
A creation of President Shinra, its very existence is hidden in the dark. Originally a medical facility for SOLDIER, following the existence of the SOLDIER called “G,” all ethics were disregarded and the purpose of the facility was perverted … as all work now went into producing the most powerful of warriors.

FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Keywords (2007)

Deepground (DG)
「 DC 」

A top secret ShinRa experimental test facility built deep under Midgar. Only very few members of ShinRa know of its existence. Originally a SOLDIER medical facility, as time passed it was transformed into an extralegal research organization which, disregarding all logic, strove to determine how strong a person could become. Once a unit called the Restrictors kept DG under rigid control, but the DG SOLDIERs orchestrated a rebellion, with the strongest Tsviet Weiss at the heart of it. They eliminated the Restrictors, and were freed from their control.

These entries show SOLDIER existed before Genesis was created, as Deepground already existed as a medical facility for SOLDIER at that time.

And here's the OG showing that Vincent apperently knows what is meant by this term (and who it's affiliated with) right when he wakes up...

Vincent
I was with... the Shinra Manufacturing Department in Administrative Research, otherwise known as--the Turks...
Vincent.

Cloud
The Turks!?

Vincent
Formerly of the Turks.
I have no affiliation with Shinra now.
...And you?

Cloud
Cloud, formerly of SOLDIER.

Vincent
You were also with Shinra...? Then do you know Lucrecia?

Cloud
Who?

Incidently, the Twilight Mexican wrote this articale: Was Sephiroth the First SOLDIER? that goes into *way* more detail than I do here... There's still a lot of ambiguity for *when* exactly SOLDIER was created, but there is some very good evdience for it being around in some form much earlier than Sephiroth being born. Even if the exactly nature of it wasn't quite the same as "modern" SOLDIERs due to Jenova not being discovered yet.

And of course, now we have The 1st SOLDIER game that proves that no, Sephiroth was *not* the first SOLDIER...

 

[waw]

You all are great. I appreciate seeing some of the debunked rumors get de-debunked XD

Speaking of fanfics, I recall Zack showing up in... uh.... JenesisX's fanfic (I think that was her name) where Sephiroth turned good in Nibelheim only for Jenova to replace him with Zack. I was YOUNG when I found that and I had no idea about Fanfics, like... I didn't know it was a thing. So I was deeply, deeply enthralled. I remember after everything was done, up until CC came out, I still had a personal grudge against Zack because of her writing. After playing CC... he's my lost little puppy. XD

I don't think we listed this one yet:

Before CC was released, Angeal was rumored to be the founder of Avalanche. I saw that one on various forums.

Oh, we didn't list this one yet either: Vincent was Sephiroth's biological father. That I first encountered in the above fanfic but I later found threads and theories all about it. Vincent's artwork was a stand in for Sephiroth's I think in an early character relationship chart (Vincent was listed as Sephiroth. It had the one eyed guy that never resurfaced). And his love for Lucrecia at time of the original release... their relationship just wasn't clear. This is probably one that I really wish was true. There's something so poetic about having the tragic, fallen father that couldn't protect his son have to hunt him down at the end of the earth. I was a bit heartbroken when it turned out not to be true.

I wouldn't mind if Remake wants to throw in a retcon for old time's sake.

 

[Ite]

Oh yeah, V+L=S. Was my headcanon for many years. Especially since Vincent seems shocked when Hojo reveals he's the father. Why would that come as a surprise to him, eh?

Nowadays, I'm of the "Lucrecia was a sociopathic monster" persuasion, so the 'tragic love story' doesn't quite excite me the way that "everyone was a hot mess and no one actually loved anyone" does.

Remake is obviously gonna pull some daddy Grimoire stuff, which I never cottoned to, and the post-OG treatment of Lucrecia pretty consistently paints her as a demure victim of circumstance, so looks like nobody is gonna get their wish lol

 

[Eerie]

Oh, this thread reminds me how someone told me that Zack and Cloud were able to feel the time that passed when they were tested in a tube, and that they were talking to each other. Needless to say, since I hadn't seen or played CC, I had no clue about this though it seemed weird to me. And indeed, that person must have read some clack fanfic and think of it as canon

This is why I don't really like in-universe fanfics, and don't read fanfics in general, because they really can screw your perception of canon and characterisation. It's a huge problem in fandoms.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Oh, this thread reminds me how someone told me that Zack and Cloud were able to feel the time that passed when they were tested in a tube, and that they were talking to each other.

We know they were scratching on the glass back and forth to each other in the OG. And Crisis Core has Zack being brought out of the tube to fight monsters in Hojo's VR room. Crisis Core also has an awake Zack in a mako tube right before he breaks out of it. And given the nature of the experiments done on them, Hojo would have *had* to take them out of the tubes at some point. It would be more of a miracle if they *didn't* talk over the... four years... they were with Hojo.

This is why I don't really like in-universe fanfics, and don't read fanfics in general, because they really can screw your perception of canon and characterisation. It's a huge problem in fandoms.

Funnily enough, half the reason I research FFVII lore as much as I do is so that I can write as accurate fan-fics as I can when it comes to the setting and world-building. And come up with NPCs that *fit* into the world like they're NPCs you'd expect to find in the game.

 

[Cae Lumis]

Oh, this thread reminds me how someone told me that Zack and Cloud were able to feel the time that passed when they were tested in a tube, and that they were talking to each other. Needless to say, since I hadn't seen or played CC, I had no clue about this though it seemed weird to me. And indeed, that person must have read some clack fanfic and think of it as canon

Crisis Core's Ultimania confirms what was implied in the OG that Zack and Cloud didn't spend the entirety of their 5 Years asleep within the Mako Pods underneath Nibelheim and were instead occasionally were brought out to be experimented on (Crisis Core and Remake both imply that the nature of these experiments was putting the two through relentless and most likely very lethal VR trials against theoretical Opponents). So far from being always asleep, they had plenty of moments of lucidity so they can have that moment in December when the two managed to plan their escape by scratching their nails against the tube's glass (something the CC Ultimania still confirms is a fact that happened).

Frankly in-universe fan fictions come in two flavors: those that adhere closely and show their research to the lore, and those that don't. Its something of a mark of quality when you can see within the writing the amount of research put into the fic.


(Just about to post: notices update.... damn it ninja'd! XD)

 

[Eerie]

We know they were scratching on the glass back and forth to each other in the OG. And Crisis Core has Zack being brought out of the tube to fight monsters in Hojo's VR room. Crisis Core also has an awake Zack in a mako tube right before he breaks out of it. And given the nature of the experiments done on them, Hojo would have *had* to take them out of the tubes at some point. It would be more of a miracle if they *didn't* talk over the... four years... they were with Hojo.

CC also points out that Zack didn't have the slightest clue that YEARS had passed. He was really shocked when he read Aerith's letter. Like, of course they were taken out and tested on, that is a given. Even then, I'd argue that with Zack and Cloud's plan to escape, it was truly Angeal that allowed them to, if we look at the scene - even Zack mentions it. This is a far cry from "having conversations" and "feeling the time that passes".

 

[Odysseus]

Here, have more godlike Y2K photoshop art. That should help everyone calm down.

Spoiler

They didn't even use Vincent's art, that's Sephiroth's head with his hair dyed black edited on to some other character's body. Wtf.

 

[Keveh Kins]

Is that Lucrecia in the background? I'm getting big time uncanny valley Banshee from Darby O'Gill vibes off it. Do not like

 

[waw]

Is that Legend of Kain or something for the body?

For a lot of this, we just need more Remake installments to help with our undertsanding.

Here's a few more:
1. You coul resurrect Aerith.
2. You could get a white chocobo.

Okay, those are popular gameplay rumors but I thought worth mentioning. Ive seen a lot of speculation around the underwater crater but never definitive answers.

Finally:
Ffix's Supersoft prompted rumors you could save Seto.

 

[Shademp]

Here, have more godlike Y2K photoshop art. That should help everyone calm down.

Spoiler

View attachment 10379
They didn't even use Vincent's art, that's Sephiroth's head with his hair dyed black edited on to some other character's body. Wtf.

Odysseus is the God of Y2K Internet History and I thank him for travelling the ethereal planes of ye olde cringe to grant us with these cursed gifts. <3

 

[Odysseus]

There's this period of seven years after the original game came out but before the compilation started that just really interests me, especially closer to 1997.

Spoiler

Love this garbage

That rocket town site still partially exists on the way back machine if anyone is interested in this garbage lol.

 

[Odysseus]

I'm downloading a bunch of old fan art and adding a bunch of old fanfics to the wayback machine now and it's all your fault.

 

[Odysseus]

I'm just gonna keep posting about my Y2K side shit because why not. It's been kinda fascinating trying to archive old fanfics on wayback, because a lot of them have SOME of the chapters still online somehow (anyone remember angelfire?) but not others. It's like the tablets of Gilgamesh, some passages intact, some not. History is a closed circle, is what I'm saying.