Revising the Midgar Zolom

hian

Purist
I don't know if you had a Norwegian localization, if that was the case it must have looked quite ehm... quaint?

We had to make due with the English one. I don't know how the market is these days, having lived in Japan for a while and not having stayed on top of the Norwegian gaming market, but for as long as I remember, there has never been a single Norwegian localization of any major U.S or Japanese game with lots of text (there was the average sports title or so).

Norwegians are typically expected to be able to read, write and speak English more or less fluently by the time the graduate elementary school, although you have an outlier of people with poor language skills and people who cannot get over the "law of jante"(a stupid ass social convention about not giving off airs of superiority in any conceivable way) who'll insist on having sub-par English as a mark of pride for not being "pretentious" by adopting an actual English accent (you'll see it a lot among Scandinavians, who despite having good grammar and vocabulary insist on talking in this monotone and staccato way like a person after a stroke).

But I digress. Point is, translation of games to Norwegian is not a thing, much like dubbing to Norwegian in any instance except children's cartoons isn't either.
 

Mayo Master

Pro Adventurer
You're thinking of the limitations imposed on Ted Woolsey when translating SNES-era games. With the PlayStation era, they no longer had limits like being unable to alter text boxes -- but for FFVII, they apparently still left the whole of the translation effort to one Michael Baskett, who had little access to help. He was able to ask some native Japanese speakers to assist with the more difficult segments, but still had to translate the text of what they said too.
Thanks for clarifying that, I had lumped together in my mind what I had read from the translations of the SNES-era FFs and what I had read from the FFVII translation.

I don't know if you had a Norwegian localization, if that was the case it must have looked quite ehm... quaint?

We had to make due with the English one. I don't know how the market is these days, having lived in Japan for a while and not having stayed on top of the Norwegian gaming market, but for as long as I remember, there has never been a single Norwegian localization of any major U.S or Japanese game with lots of text (there was the average sports title or so).

Norwegians are typically expected to be able to read, write and speak English more or less fluently by the time the graduate elementary school, although you have an outlier of people with poor language skills and people who cannot get over the "law of jante"(a stupid ass social convention about not giving off airs of superiority in any conceivable way) who'll insist on having sub-par English as a mark of pride for not being "pretentious" by adopting an actual English accent (you'll see it a lot among Scandinavians, who despite having good grammar and vocabulary insist on talking in this monotone and staccato way like a person after a stroke).

But I digress. Point is, translation of games to Norwegian is not a thing, much like dubbing to Norwegian in any instance except children's cartoons isn't either.
I knew the part about dubbing and the instruction of English language - I've spent a year with a Norwegian flatmate - I wasn't sure if the same was applied to written material.
Since you had the English version to play, I think you actually lucked out. As much as the English translation is mediocre, it's still way better than others. Here are examples of how botched the French translation is, often it's even much worse than a google-translate!
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
I think the republicans are doomed. Clinton (who it's looking like it will be) or Sanders would have been beatable, but they've taken way too long to thin the herd or eliminate the cartoon. Their inability to find anyone electable is as baffling as it was for the democrats in 2004, but even more so as it's the second election in a row.
 

Flare

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Flare
I think the republicans are doomed. Clinton (who it's looking like it will be) or Sanders would have been beatable, but they've taken way too long to thin the herd or eliminate the cartoon. Their inability to find anyone electable is as baffling as it was for the democrats in 2004, but even more so as it's the second election in a row.

Ummm.... wrong thread? :awesome:

Unless the Midgar Zolom is voting :monster:
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
I think the republicans are doomed. Clinton (who it's looking like it will be) or Sanders would have been beatable, but they've taken way too long to thin the herd or eliminate the cartoon. Their inability to find anyone electable is as baffling as it was for the democrats in 2004, but even more so as it's the second election in a row.
Well, the game could change in a flash when they release a Zolom at the next debate.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Sorry it took me forever to respond. Work got busy, and I didn’t want to dive back into this thread until I had time. Because of that, I’m not gonna quote in my reply, but I was primarily looking at hian's post here when I was writing it. I will split out my jumps with break lines like this though.


————————————————————————————


While I was being a little pedantic just because (and making the Archer reference was too good an opportunity to pass up), I really meant it honestly when you’re talking about “actual words” when it comes to names for fantastic creatures specifically. I’m really trying to see why some versions gain your ire whereas other don’t.

If “Nosferatu” / “ノスフェラトゥ” changing to “Nerosuferoth” / “ネロスフェロス” is something that you consider to be a reasonable connection, I don’t see what makes it outstanding, or any more “clever” in this case than the others, since it is just as garbled as Midgar Zolom. I’m especially curious about this especially when you get into your own pedantic bits about something being recognizable in light of the creature it’s used for. “Beware the Nerosuferoth” tells them absolutely nothing.

(Although, it has always sounded like a failed Sephiroth reference, & with the addition of the Compilation just makes it sound like they’re some terrible Hojo-generated, hybrid Nero-Sephiroth lizard babies created through a process involving great pain and suffer(oth)ing. Plus, I have to say that NeroSephiroth “ネロセフィロス” is a lot closer to “ネロスフェロス” than “ノスフェラトゥ” is – it’s only off by a single vowel/character). :awesome:

Final Fantasy VII-specific humor aside – What’s even more aropos to this is that (the term Nosferatu itself is a fantasy creature name of completely questionable origin only brought to use through inclusion in an item of relative popularity). It really only exists as it does now because Bram Stoker took a word, that now seems to be by all indications a mangled translation of dubious origin, and popularized it through exposure by attaching it to an iconic entity of Dracula in the novel Dracula. It is ultimately a fantasy creature name that doesn’t properly connect to any original etymological translation, but rather a “meaningless combination of letters” as you’d phrased it before. That’s not so different from how the name Midgar Zolom came to be popularized in FFVII by being attached to a relatively notable enemy, despite its name being attached to a mangled translation (though one of less dubious origin).

I think that it’s really just exposure and knowledge of the origination etymology that grinds at your gears if you let that supersede whether or not it’s an effective name within the fantasy itself. – And I totally get that since the kaiju that I designed for Colossal Kaiju Combat was called “Sacrosteus” changed to “Sarcosteon” for the progenitor version (named after the two prehistoric creatures it was designed as a hybrid of). During the redesign process, I was adamant about not altering the etymological origins of the name in exchange for the “rule of cool” just because it’s a little tough to deal with.


The Midgar Zolom isn’t just my preference for nostalgia or the rule of cool though.


The thing about the Midgar Zolom that I think makes the name work better is because you already IMMEDIATELY know that it’s some sort of snake. It’s a massive serpentine silhouette roaming the swamp that makes you go get a chocobo. Putting wyrm/worm/snake/etc. in its proper name is just giving redundant information to you by the time you eventually encounter it and see it up-close in battle. While “Midgar Wyrm” is something where you know what it means, it’s not a necessary bit of context, and as I mentioned before, it comes off as a bit generic (which I’ll get to in more detail later).

The only familiar word you’re going off of as a player is “Midgar” which (in the game’s progression), you’ve only recently left, and you’ve come to know know as a world-draining source of all sorts of terrible things. If this “Zolom” snake-creature was created there or even just named after the city itself, that’s the context that you add to it – especially because it’s a half-revealed enemy – as you make your way off into the swamp to hopefully avoid it.


————————————————————————————


In reference to hian's “Shavelanks of Dappelcrab” comment, I’ll address it with a more poignant example:

“Terrato” from FFVI

That loses even the loose sounding similarity that “Midgar Zolom” still had (and Tactics’ “Midgar Swarm” almost still had) to the original Midgardsormr. It kinda tries with “Terra” as a substitution for Midgard, which I will give it props for though. While I might be an advocate for keeping that name around (despite the fact that it was changed/make-up to meet character limitations no longer present in a remake), there are a couple of reasons that I wouldn’t advocate it as strongly.

• It’s a summon/esper.

As I’d noted before, these are supposed to be callbacks to existing mythology (Odin, KotoR, etc.), so it makes sense to use the original mythological name. Additionally, recurring summons or otherwise “mythologically unique” entities typically have a Final Fantasy-specific version that makes them feel more like a Cactuar or Chocobo, than something specific to that game itself. (Note: This is the same reason that there’s no question about changing “Midgar Swarm” to Midgardsormr).

For example: Bahamut (while changing appearance and role in various incarnations) is essentially a version of the same sort of entity throughout Final Fantasy. While it’s not a name unique to Final Fantasy, it’s a Final Fantasy…ism at this point such that it’s essentially a known trope of sorts for the series. Final Fantasy VII’s Bahamut looks like ____, Final Fantasy VIII’s Bahamut looks like ____, etc.

• While the name is unique/descriptive, it doesn’t outweigh the mythological connection.

“Terra”to uses Quake, an Earth-based attack, so the name is apropos to its magical role as a summon. That being said, it isn’t any more well-suited to being an earthquake attacking entity that than Midgardsormr is - in fact Terrato’s probably closer to being more generic and less impressive in this case. (Note: This is also why “Midgar Swarm” handily fails this test).


————————————————————————————


Jormungand/Midgardsormr are interchangeably used, and exist in a good chunk of Final Fantasy games as relatively iconic serpentine entities of some kind. It could without question fit in spectacularly in the FFVII Remake as such, and feel exactly as you’d expect a Final Fantasy game to. (That’s likely why it’ll happen).

What I really think is that the massive swamp-snake’s identity as “a Final Fantasy Midgardsormr” isn’t as appealing as “a/the Midgar Zolom” because it’s exchanging a generic Final Fantasy identity in exchange for losing a Final Fantasy VII-specific identity. It’s not a summon, so its player-knowledge of it as a preexisting mythological entity doesn’t make it gain the same meaningful context that it would if it were. The name’s mistranslation gave it a Final Fantasy VII-unique identity by connecting it to Midgar, and thus rather than relying solely on the player’s real world etymology responsible for its name, it gives it an unexplained, but hints at a logical in-world source of its name.

It’s because of that connection, that the Midgar Zolom made me think about how the people of FFVII would’ve come to call it that, rather than why someone programming a game would name something after an iconic mythological entity. While I can’t deny that there is nostalgia at play with it, I am always going to prefer a name that is world-specific to FFVII is much more than a label that’s a mythological callback, because only one of them adds depth FROM the world of FFVII back to into it.



tl;dr - You're all awesome for discussing this with me. Zolom For President!

Seriously though, if someone photoshops me an awesome faux presidential slogan for this, I will not only love you forever, but will also change my avatar to make it look like I’m going to run against Yop in 2016 and it will be the best. Pleeease!

:awesomonster:



X :neo:
 

Tashasaurous

Tash for Short
AKA
Sailor Moon, Mini Moon, Hotaru, Cardcaptor Sakura, Meilin, Xion, Kairi, Aqua, Tifa, Aerith, Yuffie, Elena, Misty, May, Dawn, Casey, Fiona, Ellie
Maybe they should have the Midgar Zolom swallow an entire truck whole in like 15 minutes like a real life snake swallowing a Crocodile in that amount of time, which, is actually true.
 

Flare

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Flare
Aaaand here's a snazzy digitally sketched/photoshopped Midgar Zolom... in the style of 'Don't Tread On Me', just for you, X-Soldier. :awesome:

don_t_tread_on_me_avatar_jpeg_by_bahamutdeusmodus-d9tquwa.jpg

bs_dont_tread_on_me_2_by_bahamutdeusmodus-d9tquxb.jpg

If you want them, anyways. :monster: And if you're curious, yes I just used a template for the 'Don't tread on me' flag, and drew over the snake on my art program. :awesome:
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
I'm legit so pleased right now. Flare & Force have made this thread even better than it already was (for entirely different reasons than I loved it already). I have tears in my eyes from constantly laughing. Best accidental mis-post, 2016. I'm so glad everyone just subtly played along with it and it lead to this.




X :neo:
 

Flare

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Flare
Oh my God you're using them! XD That's awesome, I'm glad you like them! :glomp: It was totally worth taking an hour to doodle those out because of you :awesome:

Now.... I'm wondering who I should vote for this year. Cthulhu or Zolom?
Better make some threads to find out!
:bigmonster:
 

Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
^You need to check your facts before making baseless assumptions. He lives in a swamp buddy. Swamp. Not Grass.
 

hian

Purist
While I was being a little pedantic just because (and making the Archer reference was too good an opportunity to pass up), I really meant it honestly when you’re talking about “actual words” when it comes to names for fantastic creatures specifically. I’m really trying to see why some versions gain your ire whereas other don’t.

Because some words, if tied to real world languages and cultures, and you're informed about the etymology of the word, is a "fun-fact" that scratches the curiosity about the creative process surrounding the lore - whilst a pure fantasy name on the other hand, is just that, pure fantasy.
There really is nothing in terms of symbolism etc. to ponder about in those instances.

If “Nosferatu” / “ノスフェラトゥ” changing to “Nerosuferoth” / “ネロスフェロス” is something that you consider to be a reasonable connection, I don’t see what makes it outstanding, or any more “clever” in this case than the others, since it is just as garbled as Midgar Zolom.

Not at all. If the connection is true (which it probably isn't), that would mean that I caught the connection the moment I saw the name. I would, based on the name alone, guess a connection to the Nosferatu, and then when seeing the creatures appearance being similar to that of the vampire in the old black and white movie, could laugh at that and enjoy the reference.

This is equally true for Midgar Zolom though. I was not trying to make the argument that Midgar Zolom is entirely dysfunctional in this regards or that Nerosuferoth is superior.

You could make the case that, if it really were the case that Nerosuferoth is based off of Nosferatu, that the naming difference makes sense because the creature only resembles Nosferatu in appearance to a minute degree.
The Midgar Zolom on the other hand, is obviously when you come across it, meant as a very clear reference to "Midgardsormen" from Norse mythology, so it would make more sense to retain accuracy in the name.

That's one possible metric. I wouldn't argue it's necessarily a good one or one that I would use, but it's certainly one way of thinking about it.

Again though, I wasn't making an argument about Nerosuferoth being better than Midgar Zolom. I simply stated that most creatures within FFVII to one degree or another are references to other creatures from our world.
Personally, I prefer that this is done with accuracy (which would be true for Nerosuferoth as well, if it is a derivative name) since it makes it clearer to the player what the reference actually is.

I’m especially curious about this especially when you get into your own pedantic bits about something being recognizable in light of the creature it’s used for. “Beware the Nerosuferoth” tells them absolutely nothing.

Well, again, if the Nerosuferoth derivation was true, I'd be on the lookout for a creature that looks in one way or another to Nosferatu - big beaky nose (or as is the case here, beak =P ), pointy ears and small beady eyes would be among those features, and so I would have been told something by the name (except that Nerosuferoth might be another reference that is simply flying over my head).

Zolom on the other hand, is not at all recognizable to me as being a word for something snake-like, and while the term "Midgar" might clue me in - the problem is that in FFVII, Midgar is a place quite distinct from the one in Norse Mythology.
Without actually seeing the snake on the world-map, I doubt most people would make the leap to the snake from Norse mythology just by looking at the term "Midgar Zolom" in the context of a game were Midgar is entirely its own entity within the universe.


Final Fantasy VII-specific humor aside – What’s even more aropos to this is that (the term Nosferatu itself is a fantasy creature name of completely questionable origin only brought to use through inclusion in an item of relative popularity). It really only exists as it does now because Bram Stoker took a word, that now seems to be by all indications a mangled translation of dubious origin, and popularized it through exposure by attaching it to an iconic entity of Dracula in the novel Dracula. It is ultimately a fantasy creature name that doesn’t properly connect to any original etymological translation, but rather a “meaningless combination of letters” as you’d phrased it before.

Irrelevant. I wasn't praising the original term "Nosferatu" for its creativity or derivative meaning. Nosferatu is however, at this moment in time, a cultural artifact in our world, which means that references to it in other media and art can be creative, clever and a source of entertainment.


I think that it’s really just exposure and knowledge of the origination etymology that grinds at your gears if you let that supersede whether or not it’s an effective name within the fantasy itself.

I'd argue that the effectiveness of a name cannot be meaningfully discussed at all outside the context of... well, meaning, and since meaning of terms is determined by our language and our culture, there is no such thing as an "effective name" which is just a random selection of letters.

Of course then exposure and knowledge of culture and language will effect our ability to appreciate terms. However, once a term has just been invented from nothing, there is no amount of knowledge or exposure that will help you appreciate that term more, because the term has no culture or linguistic history to it.


The thing about the Midgar Zolom that I think makes the name work better is because you already IMMEDIATELY know that it’s some sort of snake.

It’s a massive serpentine silhouette roaming the swamp that makes you go get a chocobo.

Except that you don't. As you say in this very same sentence, you don't actually know this until the people at the farm tell you, or you see the actual silhouette of the beast in the sand.

Again, imagine someone had just told you, coming out of Midgar, that you needed to watch out for the Midgar Zolom - that would not tell anything to you what so ever, despite the fact that the beast is clearly derivative of Norse mythology and its entire nature as a giant snake could be made blatantly obvious to you by the name alone, by simply correctly translating it, or using a term like "wyrm" etc.


“Terrato” from FFVI stuff

I fail to see the relevance to my position with your point here. Yes, there are many games that don't make their derivations clear. Pointing to games that did a worse job than FFVII though, does not in any way address my position unless you presuppose I'm somehow okay with those names, where's I am not with "Zolom".

That would be wrong though. If "Terrato" was another name for Midgardsorm, then to my mind, that would be "bad" as well.


What I really think is that the massive swamp-snake’s identity as “a Final Fantasy Midgardsormr” isn’t as appealing as “a/the Midgar Zolom” because it’s exchanging a generic Final Fantasy identity in exchange for losing a Final Fantasy VII-specific identity. It’s not a summon, so its player-knowledge of it as a preexisting mythological entity doesn’t make it gain the same meaningful context that it would if it were. The name’s mistranslation gave it a Final Fantasy VII-unique identity by connecting it to Midgar, and thus rather than relying solely on the player’s real world etymology responsible for its name, it gives it an unexplained, but hints at a logical in-world source of its name.

It’s because of that connection, that the Midgar Zolom made me think about how the people of FFVII would’ve come to call it that, rather than why someone programming a game would name something after an iconic mythological entity. While I can’t deny that there is nostalgia at play with it, I am always going to prefer a name that is world-specific to FFVII is much more than a label that’s a mythological callback, because only one of them adds depth FROM the world of FFVII back to into it.

I could accept this except for the fact that
1.) you have tons of things in FFVII that are not summons with names that are not only derivations (like Nibelheim), and
2.) I don't buy the argument that having an appropriated name in an FF game somehow makes it feel less world-specific either, especially in the context of the Zolom.
Midgardsorm (or in the case of FFVII, something like Midgar's wyrm) would be both world-specific and a perfectly clear tribute to Norse mythology at the same time, because it would make sense within the narrative of the game (It's a giant snake on the outskirts of Midgar), and it's actually name is the same as the one from Norse mythology.

I does not lose it's FFVII specificity when FFVII already uses the term Midgar regularly up until that point. It does however lose the clarity of its derivation as a term (although, as we agree, it retains it in context - in light of the fact that you get to see and fight it).

Aaaand here's a snazzy digitally sketched/photoshopped Midgar Zolom... in the style of 'Don't Tread On Me', just for you, X-Soldier. :awesome:

don_t_tread_on_me_avatar_jpeg_by_bahamutdeusmodus-d9tquwa.jpg



If you want them, anyways. :monster: And if you're curious, yes I just used a template for the 'Don't tread on me' flag, and drew over the snake on my art program. :awesome:

So by the design I'm guessing the Zolom is a republican candidate then?

Well, I've never voted for the right in my life, but if the Zolom is running I just might.
I'm a bit worried for the rights of small furry animals though.
 

Cthulhu

Administrator
AKA
Yop
I for one think Zolom would make for a decent running mate. Doesn't really have the hybrid offspring and worshippers of old that Dagon has though.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Because some words, if tied to real world languages and cultures, and you're informed about the etymology of the word, is a "fun-fact" that scratches the curiosity about the creative process surrounding the lore - whilst a pure fantasy name on the other hand, is just that, pure fantasy. There really is nothing in terms of symbolism etc. to ponder about in those instances.

Here's where I'd make the argument that because the Midgar Zolom is using a term that exists as a part of the existing fantasy setting, there's still something to ponder about it that's arguably more interesting than just inserting another mythology's unique creature (especially since the inspiration is still discernable).


Not at all. If the connection is true (which it probably isn't), that would mean that I caught the connection the moment I saw the name. I would, based on the name alone, guess a connection to the Nosferatu, and then when seeing the creatures appearance being similar to that of the vampire in the old black and white movie, could laugh at that and enjoy the reference.

This is equally true for Midgar Zolom though. I was not trying to make the argument that Midgar Zolom is entirely dysfunctional in this regards or that Nerosuferoth is superior.

That was mainly my inquiry.

Again though, I wasn't making an argument about Nerosuferoth being better than Midgar Zolom. I simply stated that most creatures within FFVII to one degree or another are references to other creatures from our world. Personally, I prefer that this is done with accuracy (which would be true for Nerosuferoth as well, if it is a derivative name) since it makes it clearer to the player what the reference actually is.

As much as Final Fantasy games are sort of a melting pot of existing fantasy things with a distinct flavor, I still prefer when the game's setting itself can make something unique to itself rather than feeling borrowed - even if it's inspired by other mythology. To make a loose comparison, it makes it seem like more of an inspired blanket and less of a patchwork quilt.

If I say "Midgar Zolom" you immediately know that I'm referring to that specific thing in Final Fantasy VII, if I mention, "Midgardsormr" I'd have to provide all the other context that I'm referring to the FFVII-version of it. It's also that because "Midgarsormr" as an entity has an incredibly varied role across the Final Fantasy games in which it appears, you don't even have an immediate Final Fantasy context for it like you would with "Bahamut" or "Ifrit".



Zolom on the other hand, is not at all recognizable to me as being a word for something snake-like, and while the term "Midgar" might clue me in - the problem is that in FFVII, Midgar is a place quite distinct from the one in Norse Mythology.

Without actually seeing the snake on the world-map, I doubt most people would make the leap to the snake from Norse mythology just by looking at the term "Midgar Zolom" in the context of a game were Midgar is entirely its own entity within the universe.

...


Except that you don't. As you say in this very same sentence, you don't actually know this until the people at the farm tell you, or you see the actual silhouette of the beast in the sand.

Again, imagine someone had just told you, coming out of Midgar, that you needed to watch out for the Midgar Zolom - that would not tell anything to you what so ever, despite the fact that the beast is clearly derivative of Norse mythology and its entire nature as a giant snake could be made blatantly obvious to you by the name alone, by simply correctly translating it, or using a term like "wyrm" etc.

Well, my point was that you as a player can already see the gigantic snake-like shadow in the Swamp as you're approaching the Chocobo Farm, where you're introduced to it. Not to mention that "Zolom" as a term isn't meant to be something that you're immediately familiar with context for because of how the creature is very first introduced to the party by Choco Bill:

• Choco Bill: “Hmm, then it'll probably be safer for you to get a Chocobo. That way you can zip through the marshes with the Chocobo. It's the only way to avoid being attacked by the Midgar Zolom.”

• Cloud: “Midgar Zolom...?”

• Choco Bill: “It's a serpent-like creature over 30 feet tall!! It picks up on footsteps that enter the marshes... And then, BAM!! It attacks!!! To avoid that, buy a Chocobo at the Choco Bill and Choco Billy Chocobo Farm. To purchase a Chocobo, please talk to my grandson. He's in the Chocobo stables at the far right end of the farm.”

Even in-universe, it's something that's loosely described for you before you meet it (unless you recklessly dive face-first into the swamp before going to the farm), so making its proper name contain a generic term for what you know it already is makes it feel redundant.

Irrelevant. I wasn't praising the original term "Nosferatu" for its creativity or derivative meaning. Nosferatu is however, at this moment in time, a cultural artifact in our world, which means that references to it in other media and art can be creative, clever and a source of entertainment.

That was my whole point though, as was my original mention of Godzilla. The original game is nearly 20 years old, has sold about 10 million copies, and has an enormous cultural presence - which is largely in the audience who played the English localization and are familiar with the name "Midgar Zolom" despite the fact that it's an artifact of bad localization.

While FFVII isn't beyond retroactively renaming even its more key characters (Aeris >> Aerith), I wanted to point out that cultural awareness is a fine reason to keep a name that's attached itself to a character/monster/entity even if it wasn't a perfect adaptation when it became popular.


I'd argue that the effectiveness of a name cannot be meaningfully discussed at all outside the context of... well, meaning, and since meaning of terms is determined by our language and our culture, there is no such thing as an "effective name" which is just a random selection of letters.

Of course then exposure and knowledge of culture and language will effect our ability to appreciate terms. However, once a term has just been invented from nothing, there is no amount of knowledge or exposure that will help you appreciate that term more, because the term has no culture or linguistic history to it.

Oh, I'd definitely argue that point.

Because language is ultimately composed of a sound structure that drives it, there are definitely "better" or "worse" names – even when they are nothing but combinations of letters devoid of a specific etymological origin. That's why in Lord of the Rings you get Hobbits with names like "Pippin" and "Frodo" but Orcs with names like "Muzgash" and "Grishnákh" and never the other way 'round. Despite the fact that they don't have real-world etymology driving them, they're still guided by basic tendencies of linguistics that make one option better than the other. Even the basic auditory composition of a word can convey a different feeling through various changes.

It should be noted that that is something that varies with a language's roots, too. I'd argue that's why "Godzilla" works as a much more intimidating name in English than "Gojira" since the "odzi" is a harder/harsher combination than "oji" that also involves more tension in pronunciation. (This also relates to why I eventually changed my kaiju's name from "Sarcosteus" to "Sarcosteon" because it ends on a slightly harder consonant).



I fail to see the relevance to my position with your point here. Yes, there are many games that don't make their derivations clear. Pointing to games that did a worse job than FFVII though, does not in any way address my position unless you presuppose I'm somehow okay with those names, where's I am not with "Zolom".

That would be wrong though. If "Terrato" was another name for Midgardsorm, then to my mind, that would be "bad" as well.

I'm not at all addressing your position about the name. I was clarifying your previous assumption about MY position on the name "Midgar Zolom" since you'd previously stated:
If the Midgar Zolom had been named the "Shavelanks of Dappelcrab", you'd still be making this argument right now.

I was pointing out that there are VERY different reasons for why I value the name "Midgar Zolom" that don't apply to other mistranslations/alterations of the same term from other Final Fantasy games like "Terrato" or "Midgar Swarm" or just arbitrarily random names like "Shavelanks of Dappelcrab." like you'd assumed I would.



What I really think is that the massive swamp-snake’s identity as “a Final Fantasy Midgardsormr” isn’t as appealing as “a/the Midgar Zolom” because it’s exchanging a generic Final Fantasy identity in exchange for losing a Final Fantasy VII-specific identity. It’s not a summon, so its player-knowledge of it as a preexisting mythological entity doesn’t make it gain the same meaningful context that it would if it were. The name’s mistranslation gave it a Final Fantasy VII-unique identity by connecting it to Midgar, and thus rather than relying solely on the player’s real world etymology responsible for its name, it gives it an unexplained, but hints at a logical in-world source of its name.

It’s because of that connection, that the Midgar Zolom made me think about how the people of FFVII would’ve come to call it that, rather than why someone programming a game would name something after an iconic mythological entity. While I can’t deny that there is nostalgia at play with it, I am always going to prefer a name that is world-specific to FFVII is much more than a label that’s a mythological callback, because only one of them adds depth FROM the world of FFVII back to into it.


I could accept this except for the fact that
1.) you have tons of things in FFVII that are not summons with names that are not only derivations (like Nibelheim), and
2.) I don't buy the argument that having an appropriated name in an FF game somehow makes it feel less world-specific either, especially in the context of the Zolom.
Midgardsorm (or in the case of FFVII, something like Midgar's wyrm) would be both world-specific and a perfectly clear tribute to Norse mythology at the same time, because it would make sense within the narrative of the game (It's a giant snake on the outskirts of Midgar), and it's actually name is the same as the one from Norse mythology.

I does not lose it's FFVII specificity when FFVII already uses the term Midgar regularly up until that point. It does however lose the clarity of its derivation as a term (although, as we agree, it retains it in context - in light of the fact that you get to see and fight it).

I think that my "patchwork quilt" comment earlier mostly hit on my preference vs. yours on this, but I wanted to also address one other thing about my hesitance to use "Midgar's Wyrm" - which is because it sounds generic.

The Nibel Wolf having an in-universe Norse mythology reference, followed by a literal descriptor is a format that is done for common enemy types, because it's just giving them something to functionally identify them, rather than giving them an actual name. If there was one big Nibel Wolf, you'd probably call it Fenrir instead. It's like if we called our characters things like "Nibelheim Human" instead of Cloud or Tifa. That's fine for a generic NPC (although you'd probably use something less awkward like "Nibelheim Resident"), but it's not a name.

Midgardsormr is absolutely a name meant to be an entity of some kind, rather than something generic. Likewise the Midgar Zolom is meant to be an entity of some kind (regardless of how it comes back, there's only ever one at a time either on map or in battle). Because "Zolom" isn't just the word snake/wyrm/etc. you never have a sense of it being a generic term. I think that it being a unique entity is most important, followed by its mythological reference, which is why my preference falls in this order:

1) Midgar Zolom - unique, world-specific, a loose reference to its mythological origin.
2) Midgardsormr - a Final Fantasy "entity" of sorts, direct mythological reference.
3) Midgar's Wyrm - generic, world-specific, a loose reference to its mythological origin.

If it doesn't get to stay as the "Midgar Zolom" I'd vastly prefer to go back to "Midgardsormr" and lose the reference to Midgar entirely, because just calling it "Midgar's Wyrm" loses the sense of uniqueness that having a proper name gives it.



So by the design I'm guessing the Zolom is a republican candidate then?

Well, I've never voted for the right in my life, but if the Zolom is running I just might.
I'm a bit worried for the rights of small furry animals though.

I think that the design is more literal in this case. I advocate the use of Chocobos as a method of transportation :awesomonster:


I for one think Zolom would make for a decent running mate. Doesn't really have the hybrid offspring and worshippers of old that Dagon has though.

I think that if our policies align, a Cthulhu/Zolom ticket would be unstoppable, especially because Zolom is the best Beta candidate. The competition would be... Blown Away. No matter how high anyone else raises the stakes, Zolom's shadow will always return.

That being said, if we were running opposed, I'd love to see a redone version of the American Snake Vs. UK Dragon:

two.jpg





X :neo:
 

Random Nobody

local roach
There appears to be a Midgar zolom (or its equivalent anyway) in FFXV, so I'm guessing the encounter is going to be somewhat similar.

EDIT: I still can't get over the Metal Gear Solid ass villain in that trailer, like I'm dying. Why they fighting the Beauties Unit in Lucis?
 
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X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
It's at 1:24, although I'd like to see something the size of the one at 0:24 & 1:44.




Or the one in the first 20 seconds of this one, rather the one at 0:50







X :neo:
 
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