Scenes you expect to see in HD

[The Twilight Mexican]

Based on no more than we saw in the original game, it wasn't that hard to believe, though, anyway. It's only because CC explicitly showed him there at times that we have to reason that it was easier for his subconscious to remove those memories altogether, like the memory of going to the general store in Nibelheim when he returned there with Sephiroth and Zack.

 

[hian]

W
I mean, even in the original game I thought it seemed weird that Cloud says he's never been to Shinra HQ. That could be another event of CC being sloppy, but it also doesn't make a ton of sense to begin with. It's possible, but always struck me as unlikely. If for no other reason than why didn't he think he had as Zack, as he did with meeting the President?

This is something I never took much notice of.
I mean, if Shinra controls the world, and you have places (military bases) like Junon, it's entirely plausible that you could have members of its military group, SOLDIER or not, never having been to the HQ.
After all, the HQ in the original is not shown to be some sort of military base - rather it seems to be almost entirely a government structure largely for the purpose of business management and city related beaurocractic management.

I don't expect most Navy Seals have necessarily been to the white house in some sort of official function, and it's perfectly reasonable that President Shinra could have been to places like Junon, so just going by the original I'd assume that SOLDIER training was done in places like Junon, rather than Midgar, and that Zack/Cloud met the president there rather than in the Shinra Building.

 

[ForceStealer]

Of course, but Cloud did explicitly go to Midgar, not Junon, to sign up. I wonder where he thought he had met the President before. And Junon and the Shinra building are the only two places in the entire game that you encounter SOLDIER.

I would say the more apt comparison would be the Pentagon than the White House, but your point stands. Fair enough.

 

[Roger]

While I offer no contest to the fact that it was sloppily done, I think it's still fairly obvious that the INTENT was that Cloud did not remember Genesis being in Nibelheim, and as such, Genesis' absence from the remake would not be a retcon. It would, at most, highlight Crisis Core's silliness in that regard.

Frankly, Genesis being in Nibelheim in just such a way that Cloud never noticed is more believable to me than Shinra being able to completely cover up that the man ever existed when he was quite literally everywhere before that.
I mean, even in the original game I thought it seemed weird that Cloud says he's never been to Shinra HQ. That could be another event of CC being sloppy, but it also doesn't make a ton of sense to begin with. It's possible, but always struck me as unlikely. If for no other reason than why didn't he think he had as Zack, as he did with meeting the President?

If he hadn't gone there as Cloud, he's not gonna be able to help much guiding the group through the building, regardless of how at home Zack was there. On some level he knew that. That I can understand.

 

[hian]

Of course, but Cloud did explicitly go to Midgar, not Junon, to sign up. I wonder where he thought he had met the President before. And Junon and the Shinra building are the only two places in the entire game that you encounter SOLDIER.

I would say the more apt comparison would be the Pentagon than the White House, but your point stands. Fair enough.

That's true. He went to Midgar to sign up, so they really should have some sort of barracks there.

As for only Shinra HQ and Junon having SOLDIER in them -
That's another thing that's really silly about the original. If Shinra essentially controls the world, you'd expect them to have military bases and outposts on all continents and at least some presence in all towns etc. especially when traveling Gaia is apparently very cumbersome.
Hopefully they'll expand on this in the remake.

 

[Clement Rage]

-Citing things post-Nibelheim Sephiroth does after absorbing who knows how much Lifestream and tapping into Jenova's full power isn't informative regarding pre-Nibelheim Seph.

-Ripping the Jenova doll away isn't nearly as impressive

-Those pods were designed to make materia. Hojo is just a sick bastard and stuck people in there

-If the VR machinery didn't simulate the actual physical properties of the material on display, then what would be the point? Assuming that also seems at odds with one stated purpose of the scene to show off just how powerful Sephiroth was. And as hian has noted, that display of power is consistent with the rest of the post-original titles, and even Sephiroth's own depiction later in Crisis Core when he flings Cloud into Jenova's room -- cutting through the thick metal wall of the door frame as he does so, and leaving it burning a la when he and Cloud cut through stuff in AC/C

you call me on referencing post Nibelheim Sephy and do it yourself in the same post? should i have a cookie monster icon here?

Then why aren't those pods in any other reactor?

Point of the vr machine is presumable to allow soldier to spar without breaking everything in sight? would they really send people to test the exact structural integrity of the cannon just for the sake of that room?

Not saying he needed to, just that it appears to be what he did since his copies were fighting them outside while he was talking to Sephiroth inside. Maybe he just didn't want to be interrupted, so he left the copies out there for the same reason he knocked Zack to the floor with that fire spell.

there are copy random encounters all over the mountain, it seems like it could just be something that happened, rather than 'i am specifically ordering my subordinates to distract these two for absolutely no reason, since there's nothing at all they can do to affect my efforts in any way.'

Which is a moot point. I ignored it because if you remember, that HP count is higher than Sephiroth's in the flash-back (which is in the mid 3000s), which means that if you were to read the stats literally at this point, ordinary 1st Class SOLDIERs would be stronger than Sephiroth - which makes no sense.

not really, as they don't do 3,000 damage per hit, and he's wearing a fair few magic materia that lower default hp. He's still more than a match for them. you're right insofar as taking the stats literally doesn't work, but you're also right that they are indicative mps are a fairly weak brand of shinra infantry, other groups are better. and soldier 1sts are significantly better

Secondly, the memories are confused only in regards to what role Cloud played in them.
When Cloud fixes his memories, with the exception of which role he played, and the missing part, everything else is the same.
I don't know how that can be considered unreliable.

Well, the role he played in that battle matters, doesn't it? like ttm says later, he edits out memories that are too contradictory. if cloud remembers doing things that he currently can't even come close to doing, that's a memory that will cause some problems.

This is ridiculous, and I know some people here will consider this a rude sentiment - but here goes - that's a typical perspective of someone who's grown up watching too much action media, and doesn't have enough experience with real violence.

A person being able to down 2 other people in hand-to-hand combat is an amazing feat in and of itself - 3 or 4 even more so.
A person armed with a sword killing 3 people armed with machine-guns is in and of itself a super-unrealistic scenario unless we're talking about 3 people trapped in a cramped pitch-black room, with a guy wielding a sword while wearing night-vision.


If SOLDIER is a group of people wielding swords that can take out even 3 guys with machine-guns under ordinary circumstances (good lighting, favorable weather conditions, straight terrain etc. which would be in favor of the gunman more than the swordsman), that would make them an extremely lethal fighting force.
And when you consider Zack being weakened by what happened to him in that lab, having him even put up a fight using only a sword against 6 people armed with machine-guns would make him a beast in comparison to every single human being on planet earth.

absolutely true. but in terms of a military force during a war, where there would likely be many engagements where they would have to face more than that, they could almost never be used to their full effectiveness. If they really are that good, why not just give them guns instead (or as well), wouldn't that be a better return on your investment of enhancing soldiers in the first place?

I have no issue with the original death of zack in the og! I do not think it makes him look weak or is done in an unsatisfying way i am not arguing that and haven't at any point. But it is not entirely incompatible with the og that soldier could be capable of a lot of the things we see, especially given that we never see ordinary soldier in action outside of the battles you're dismissing. My argument is that it isn't as far a stretch as it seems.

It's a lose/lose argument - either sword-fighting in FFVII is unrealistic to the point that wins and loses are determined by base-strength and Zack is nowhere near Sephiroth's tier, or FFVII's fighting is supposed to be realistic, and therefore completely inconsistent with the compilation fighting.

Or the combat systems of both are inherently inconsistent both with each other and internally enough that it's hard to determine intent. compilation swordfights are broadly determined by base strength until someone is cut, and then the victim reacts mostly like someone that has been stabbed, so get in your cut early enough and you can be consistent with both systems. And, yes, i do prefer the og version.

anyway, in any interpretation we agree that Zack is thoroughly dominated in that fight.

No you couldn't, because they already had the graphics to portray it, as is apparent by the animations used battle scenes and the models used in the FMVs.
If they wanted to make a scene with Zack or Cloud doing triple back-flips with spinning cuts they could have.

They could have, but that would be a waste of animation for something that doesn't serve any plot purpose.

But that's just me. If it doesn't bother you, it doesn't. I reserve the right to be bothered by it, and to identify what about it bothers me though.

Of course.

Frankly, Genesis being in Nibelheim in just such a way that Cloud never noticed is more believable to me than Shinra being able to completely cover up that the man ever existed when he was quite literally everywhere before that.
I mean, even in the original game I thought it seemed weird that Cloud says he's never been to Shinra HQ. That could be another event of CC being sloppy, but it also doesn't make a ton of sense to begin with. It's possible, but always struck me as unlikely. If for no other reason than why didn't he think he had as Zack, as he did with meeting the President?

Maybe his memories of genesis are closely tied to his memories of zack? Like, his anti-genesis missions were all spent in close contact with zack, so they require too much complex editing to factor in? swapping wouldn't work here, because then you need another complicated backstory for the infantryman working with you.

shinra completely covered up than genesis existed? wow, that's... needlessly complicated and pointless. why? how?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

you call me on referencing post Nibelheim Sephy and do it yourself in the same post? should i have a cookie monster icon here?

I was responding to your suggestion that the Angeal vs. Seph vs. Genesis fight "was just VR" by pointing out that we see the same sort of shenanigans outside the VR room in Crisis Core and, indeed, in other Compilation titles. That comparison of stylistic sensibilities in the various portrayals is completely different from straight-up attributing post-Nibelheim power levels to pre-Nibelheim Sephiroth, especially when the title in question that you were referencing shows significant differences in his power levels pre- and post-Nibelheim.

Then why aren't those pods in any other reactor?

They probably are. I can't imagine that we saw everything in the no. 1 and no. 5 reactors. At any rate, those pods are identified in the Ultimania Omega as being used to make materia.

Point of the vr machine is presumable to allow soldier to spar without breaking everything in sight? would they really send people to test the exact structural integrity of the cannon just for the sake of that room?

My point is that the tech is simulating something specific -- the "metal" of the cannon behaves in a manner based on the design of the actual cannon. So it dents when enormous force is applied rather than spewing mortar and bits of metallic masonry. Likewise, the cannon falls apart in pieces that respond to gravity rather than the barrel continuing to hang in the air despite being sliced apart.

 

[Tashasaurous]

But it was due to the experiments on Cloud that he didn't remember properly, and since his memories were merged with Zack's ones with regards to Sephiroth, with Zack's death, Cloud lost the last of his sanity and thus, on his way back to Midgar by himself, he forgot Zack and believed he was a former SOLDIER.

Thus, he doesn't remember Genesis at all and even though he eventually realised and remembered his true self, there still are some memories that weren't worth remembering at the time.

If Square realised this, then maybe a final sequel could be set and in that said sequel, Zack's memories might spark again and Cloud could start remembering Genesis.

It's like when Sora lost his memories in KH and everyone else forgot about him, and it wasn't until both Roxas and Xion who returned to Sora did he both remember and everyone else remembered him.

Or, that the memories of Ventus, Terra, Aqua, Roxas, Xion, Namine and Axel were inside Sora's heart due to Ventus's heart and the existance of Roxas.

So in a way, Sephiroth's cells were placed both inside Cloud and Zack and via Jenova cells, all three were connected, and Cloud's mind was in a messed up Chain of Memories.

 

[hian]

not really, as they don't do 3,000 damage per hit, and he's wearing a fair few magic materia that lower default hp. He's still more than a match for them. you're right insofar as taking the stats literally doesn't work, but you're also right that they are indicative mps are a fairly weak brand of shinra infantry, other groups are better. and soldier 1sts are significantly better

They don't do 3000 damage on what? Damage in FFVII is determined by attack stats, magic attack stats, what skills/magic you're using and what the stats and levels of your enemy are.

Point here is that the base stats of those SOLDIER rival that of Sephiroth himself, and they're not even equipped with much materia (if any at all).

But, we're in general agreement here, so it seems meaningless to quibble over.

Well, the role he played in that battle matters, doesn't it? like ttm says later, he edits out memories that are too contradictory. if cloud remembers doing things that he currently can't even come close to doing, that's a memory that will cause some problems.

But the thing is, he is - he is capable of doing those things. Cloud post-experiment is at least on par with any regular SOLDIER 1st Class - arguably a lot stronger (he would have to be to be able to fight his way through the game like he did), and certainly stronger than Zack ever was.

absolutely true. but in terms of a military force during a war, where there would likely be many engagements where they would have to face more than that, they could almost never be used to their full effectiveness. If they really are that good, why not just give them guns instead (or as well), wouldn't that be a better return on your investment of enhancing soldiers in the first place?

No. Because if you have a person with the ability to kill several people armed with guns using only a sword, who can also wield magic, that is still several times better than a regular guy just wielding a gun.
On top of this, guns run out of ammo, and do not lend themselves in much significant way to being utilized differently based on things like super-speed, strength or agility.
A gun is still just a gun, even if the guy wielding it has super-strength.
A sword on the other hand - well, apart from the necessity of a steady hand and mastery of basic cutting technique, strength is the difference between being able to cut a guy in the arm, and cutting off the arm - or as the case may be in FFVII, being able to split the thick body of giant monsters.

If I could chop up soldiers using a sword, as long as they didn't get the drop on me or totally outnumbered me, I'd pick the sword over the gun every time - because let's face it, at that point, it's the more reliable weapon. It doesn't jam, doesn't need to be reloaded, isn't hampered by water or wind etc.

I have no issue with the original death of zack in the og! I do not think it makes him look weak or is done in an unsatisfying way i am not arguing that and haven't at any point.

And nowhere will you find me making the claim that you did. I was making this point long before you started replying to me, and there were other people in this thread making that point - specifically that the OG death of Zack would be anti-climatic in terms of CC - to which my reply was :
That's because CC made the mistake up upping the power-levels to begin with.

But it is not entirely incompatible with the og that soldier could be capable of a lot of the things we see, especially given that we never see ordinary soldier in action outside of the battles you're dismissing. My argument is that it isn't as far a stretch as it seems.

And my argument isn't that isn't imaginable - my argument is that it is never actually shown explicitly, nor necessarily implied in the OG, while it is explicitly shown to be the case in CC, and that IMO is bad writing because the level of super-human abilities shown in CC results in a mountain-load of plot-holes because of it.

Is it possible to extrapolate from the original the kind of stuff you see in the compilation? Arguably yes. However, those things weren't in the actual original, and extrapolating them causes problem for the plot in retrospect, which is why it's more natural to assume that it's inconsistent - and regardless of whether it is or not, to recognize is as bad creative design.

Or the combat systems of both are inherently inconsistent both with each other and internally enough that it's hard to determine intent. compilation swordfights are broadly determined by base strength until someone is cut, and then the victim reacts mostly like someone that has been stabbed, so get in your cut early enough and you can be consistent with both systems.

Again - Occam's razor. It's not like Sephiroth snuck up on Zack and got a lucky first blow.

Whether people in FFVII, OG or not, get hurt like regular people when actually struck, does not change the fact that up until the point that people get struck in the compilation, they have long drawn-out anti-gravity DBZ fights with swords, especially when they're somewhat on par in terms of strength.

Zack squaring off against Sephiroth in a fair one on one, and then seconds later getting floored suggests that Zack was not strong enough to cross swords with Sephiroth.

They could have, but that would be a waste of animation for something that doesn't serve any plot purpose.

There are plenty of wasted animations that don't directly serve the plot in FFVII, as there is in all media and story-telling - because this is not a short-story where every single animation needs to be dedicated to the plot, and secondly, everything in it also exists on a spectrum of value as visceral entertainment.

Point in case - does the long drawn-out DBZ fight scenes in the compilation serve a specific plot-purpose they could not just have easily made with a 10 second fight sequence?
Of course they don't. They're made that way because it looks cool.

If Zack was supposed to be remarkably strong, or worth mentioning in any meaningful way as a SOLDIER above and beyond his passing relationship to Cloud, they could, and very probably would have made that apparent throughout the plot-scenes of the original.
If they wanted to up the cool factor of the Nibelheim show-down they had that chance with Zack, yet opted not to.

As it were, Zack originally, was just another SOLDIER - one who happened to be with Cloud during the Nibelheim incident.

The point I'm trying to make here is pretty simple -

All SOLDIERs are special and inhumanly strong - but people in general have had their view of what "inhumanly strong" actually means grossly distorted by action in media, and the FFVII compilation builds into this.

For that reason I see no issue with saying that Zack is inhumanly strong while also saying that this description does not need to necessitate him pulling off the kind of stuff he does at the end of CC, and I think that it's relatively apparent that the original creators did not envision the physics of combat in the original to actually be like that, all things considered.

 

[Clement Rage]

well then i think we're pretty much agreed, since i was arguing that you can interpret that level of strength, not that you had to.

i don't think the discrepancy is as bad as you were saying, but that's just a question of interpretation.

 

[Unit-01]

Ok I've missed a big chunk of this talk.

@Hian- To address what you said earlier about CC. I need to ask cause I am downright confused about what you are trying to say here.

As I said - that does not happen in CC. That is entirely a ret-con of the CC that is a part of the power-level inflation I am objecting to begin with.

What? I am so lost. The fight itself happens only in CC... unless that is not what you are referring to, because I have a feeling it isn't.

It's a bad thing the same way the final fight between Sephiroth and Cloud in AC is a bad thing, and the fight on top of Junon between Sephiroth, Genesis and Angeal is a bad thing.
It's retrograde all-flash-no-substance DBZ battle choreography that's made entirely for the purpose of impressing people who're literally just looking for that and not much else with no concern for how that sort of power impacts the consistency of the lore.

I agree with you on one thing, the amount of soldiers is overwhelming. But to suggest Zack's final stand doesn't have any substance is wrong. You go through the entire game as Zack building up to to his last moments fighting for his life. This is the reason why I specifically stated in my last post that it's OK in the OG because Zack is a side character, but in CC Zack is the protagonist and I don't think they wanted to end the game with him fighting three soldiers and not being able to take them on.

Also now that Zack's popularity has risen since then, people want more when that scene comes around in the Remake, and they are likely going to take direction of Crisis Core.

And actually the literal last fight in CC is against those three soldiers we see in the original. It's the second phase of the fight and lasts until Aerith's flashbacks play through the DMW.

As I said - how does scenes like Cloud and Co getting cornered in an elevator by the Turks make sense if Cloud can literally cut the elevator to ribbons and run up the entire building if he wanted to?

How does raging Sephiroth bashing his sword against the tanks in the reactor make sense if he can casually cut to pieces the Junon canon?

It's thoughtless and dumb to write super-human characters if you're writing a plot with specifics that demand that your characters specifically are not super-human to be troubled by the conflicts you pit them against.

Sure, Cloud doing triple back-flips, zero-gravity acrobatic fighting etc. looks visually pleasing.
It is however completely dumb from a plot-writing perspective.

AC and CC introduces this into the narrative of the FFVII, more so that it already was (in the original it was largely limited to the actual battles, which are abstractions to begin with, and Cloud surviving a couple of falls), and that to my mind, is minus to the franchise.

These scenes have their problems, but they aren't the same as that of Zack's final stand. Again the amount of soldiers is overwhelming, but it makes more sense than these ones you listed and these don't defend your argument.

The entire last bit of the game is building up to it in the background with constant encounters from Shinra soldier and robots before hand, and the constant hunting by the Turks.(This is on top of ending the conflict with Genesis).

Please tell me how that entire last bit of CC and the last battle have no substance like Sephiroth destroying the Junon cannon, Cloud v Seph Advent Children, Seph v mako pod(which is really just an oversight). Cause I'm not seeing it.

 

[Roger]

But to suggest Zack's final stand doesn't have any substance is wrong. You go through the entire game as Zack building up to to his last moments fighting for his life. This is the reason why I specifically stated in my last post that it's OK in the OG because Zack is a side character, but in CC Zack is the protagonist and I don't think they wanted to end the game with him fighting three soldiers and not being able to take them on.

Thought the game was about stopping Genesis. Why couldn't he be the final boss? Him getting gunned down by Shinra doesn't need to be playable. Unwinnable gameplay sequences aren't that essential.

 

[Tashasaurous]

But to suggest Zack's final stand doesn't have any substance is wrong. You go through the entire game as Zack building up to to his last moments fighting for his life. This is the reason why I specifically stated in my last post that it's OK in the OG because Zack is a side character, but in CC Zack is the protagonist and I don't think they wanted to end the game with him fighting three soldiers and not being able to take them on.

Thought the game was about stopping Genesis. Why couldn't he be the final boss? Him getting gunned down by Shinra doesn't need to be playable. Unwinnable gameplay sequences aren't that essential.

I think Genesis is the actual final boss that you actually defeat and end the battle. With the fight against the army, that's was more of a battle that you were meant to lose, because it was, in fact, Zack's final stand and leading directly into where both the original game(and remake, obviously) would begin.

Plus, if they just had Genesis as the last boss, then we'd be having an overly super long last cut-scenes right up to the credits, with Zack fighting against the army without the player's control and, I think that was asking a bit too much.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I agree with you on one thing, the amount of soldiers is overwhelming. But to suggest Zack's final stand doesn't have any substance is wrong. You go through the entire game as Zack building up to to his last moments fighting for his life. This is the reason why I specifically stated in my last post that it's OK in the OG because Zack is a side character, but in CC Zack is the protagonist and I don't think they wanted to end the game with him fighting three soldiers and not being able to take them on.

Also now that Zack's popularity has risen since then, people want more when that scene comes around in the Remake, and they are likely going to take direction of Crisis Core.

The points you raise here kind of bolster hian's, if anything. Zack getting taken down by a handful of ordinary soldiers with his goal in sight is damn near one of the most unfair things in the original or the Compilation. Crisis Core could have emphasized that had it been the direction they went with the narrative.

Instead, they definitely changed the tone of the whole thing, just as they changed the purpose of Zack heading for Midgar (in the original: to lay low and take up a livelihood as a mercenary; in CC: to reunite with Aerith). In Crisis Core, Zack chooses to die fighting to keep Cloud hidden and safe, whereas in the original, Cloud was in plain sight when Zack was killed, and then was left to perish in the wastes (in the game's most ironic moment).

Any "need" for these changes was a product of other unnecessary changes.

But to suggest Zack's final stand doesn't have any substance is wrong. You go through the entire game as Zack building up to to his last moments fighting for his life. This is the reason why I specifically stated in my last post that it's OK in the OG because Zack is a side character, but in CC Zack is the protagonist and I don't think they wanted to end the game with him fighting three soldiers and not being able to take them on.

Thought the game was about stopping Genesis. Why couldn't he be the final boss? Him getting gunned down by Shinra doesn't need to be playable. Unwinnable gameplay sequences aren't that essential.

I would argue that CC used this segment to great effect, much like the last playable segment of "Shadow of the Colossus." The deteriorating DMW could have even been implemented with a more low key final battle for Zack.

 

[Unit-01]

Well my argument not to be mis-read is hian said- (I've bolded what I'm focused on in my argument.)

It's retrograde all-flash-no-substance DBZ battle choreography that's made entirely for the purpose of impressing people who're literally just looking for that and not much else with no concern for how that sort of power impacts the consistency of the lore.

If we are just talking about the soldiers and how massive that battalion is, then I am in agreement, but to suggest that the entire final bit of the game has no substance behind it is my biggest beef.

@Minato- The game was about Zack's story, which encompassed a large amount of finding Genesis, etc but not all of it. It is the final boss, but I don't think the creators wanted a long cut scene with the ending.

@Tash- Basically rehashed what you said.

@TwlightMexican- You just made me see more of the difference between the two versions, but you just looped it back to square one. How is Zack just offed by just those three soldiers? And I know there has been a very large argument about it. So I will just say, that there needs to be a middle ground somewhere, between just three soldiers more ambushing Zack and Zack taking on a whole army.

 

[leadmyskeptic]

It is interesting to note how, amongst many other changes, the specific reason Zack and Cloud are heading for Midgar is altered...although, if I remember correctly, in both cases they're just kind of doing it, and then the reasons are elaborated upon during the journey. All I wanted to point out was that reuniting with Aeris is still referred to in the OG, even though she's not mentioned by name, when he says "I got a place I can crash for a while...No wait, the mother lives there too...yep...gotta change my plans!", implying that the Gainsborough house was his initial destination. Although I guess you could say he was just planning on 'using' Aeris as a place of lodging rather than 'reuniting' with her

 

[Tashasaurous]

It is interesting to note how, amongst many other changes, the specific reason Zack and Cloud are heading for Midgar is altered...although, if I remember correctly, in both cases they're just kind of doing it, and then the reasons are elaborated upon during the journey. All I wanted to point out was that reuniting with Aeris is still referred to in the OG, even though she's not mentioned by name, when he says "I got a place I can crash for a while...No wait, the mother lives there too...yep...gotta change my plans!", implying that the Gainsborough house was his initial destination. Although I guess you could say he was just planning on 'using' Aeris as a place of lodging rather than 'reuniting' with her

I'm not sure if you were joking on this part, but Zack had discovered that Aerith was the one and only woman for him and that, in CC, he wanted to let her know he was still alive and that he still cared about her, but never got the chance.

And it also amazes me on how some people still call her Aeris. Her actual name is Aerith by Japanese standards, especially in the OG and the Compilation titles and even her name was correctly said "Aerith" in KH2.

Her name was misspelled in the OG due to bad translations.

 

[Tennyo]

I think Crisis Core made it quite implicate that Aerith is the reason Zack was going back to Midgar. I mean, the fact that he and Cloud would go there always seemed strange to me. Why go to a place like that when you want to get away from Shinra?

 

[leadmyskeptic]

Twilight mentioned above how the whole "heading to reunite with Aerith" thing is new to CC, i.e., not a part of the original game. I was pointing out that there are still clues to that aspect in the OG, but it's certainly still left as more of an implication. And, as we have pointed out with many other events, whether you want to accept CC's version of events is up for debate.

As for Aeris/Aerith, that 'mistake' is of course infamous by now, but she'll always be Aeris to me. I think of it as a Romanization, rather than an error. I mean, we don't call Cloud "Claud-O", even though that's what he is in Japanese. Aerith to me sounds like you're saying Aeris (which has a nice, round sound to it) with a bad lisp.

 

[Tashasaurous]

Nah, I prefer Aerith. Besides, she'll most likely be called Aerith permentantly and most likely named Aerith in the Remake.

If Veld from BC, and I do mean if, made an cameo appearence in the Remake, or mentioned, would be knowlaged as Veld or Verdot? I prefer Veld myself and I hope they'll use it.

I know it's unlikely that'll he'll appear again, but a person can dream, right?

 

[Roger]

I think Genesis is the actual final boss that you actually defeat and end the battle. With the fight against the army, that's was more of a battle that you were meant to lose, because it was, in fact, Zack's final stand and leading directly into where both the original game(and remake, obviously) would begin.

Plus, if they just had Genesis as the last boss, then we'd be having an overly super long last cut-scenes right up to the credits, with Zack fighting against the army without the player's control and, I think that was asking a bit too much.

So, we had to have Zack face an army to give him a good final battle, even though the real final battle was already fought and we had to give Zack that final battle because dealing with the army in cutscenes would take too long. That's great logic.

Last Order was Zack's story too, meant to be canon. It ends with Zack getting sniped by the BC Turks, then credits. The final battle didn't do away with long cutscenes, long cutscenes and a futile battle were put in just to wank Zack a bit more.

 

[Tashasaurous]

I think Genesis is the actual final boss that you actually defeat and end the battle. With the fight against the army, that's was more of a battle that you were meant to lose, because it was, in fact, Zack's final stand and leading directly into where both the original game(and remake, obviously) would begin.

Plus, if they just had Genesis as the last boss, then we'd be having an overly super long last cut-scenes right up to the credits, with Zack fighting against the army without the player's control and, I think that was asking a bit too much.

So, we had to have Zack face an army to give him a good final battle, even though the real final battle was already fought and we had to give Zack that final battle because dealing with the army in cutscenes would take too long. That's great logic.

Last Order was Zack's story too, meant to be canon. It ends with Zack getting sniped by the BC Turks, then credits. The final battle didn't do away with long cutscenes, long cutscenes and a futile battle were put in just to wank Zack a bit more.

I didn't make either titles. Square's the one who made both of them.

Besides, Last Order's ending didn't match up to the OG, because Zack was taken down by Turks instead of the army(which said army are in both OG and Crisis Core). I think that's more of an AU kind of OVA thing.

That's why they redid Advent Children to Advent Children Complete so it would add up a lot better, which, sort of did. Redoing Zack's last moment to his death in Crisis Core. Plus, Cissnei is from Before Crisis as Shuriken.

Not to mention that when Zack first encounters Reno and Rude, that was actually cross-overed from one of the scenes in Episode of Reno.

Plus, I bet the team didn't want fans to watch an overly long ending scene in a game like it was a movie. They probably wanted the players to have one last excitement before the emotional ending.

Last Order was actually more of both Zack's story as well as Tseng's narration story. Like I said, the OVA is now mainly AU kind of thing, so, I think it's half-canon.

I'm just going from what I think makes sense.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

@TwlightMexican- You just made me see more of the difference between the two versions, but you just looped it back to square one. How is Zack just offed by just those three soldiers? And I know there has been a very large argument about it. So I will just say, that there needs to be a middle ground somewhere, between just three soldiers more ambushing Zack and Zack taking on a whole army.

It's been brought up in this discussion that even in the original game, sounds of battle could be heard while Zack was offscreen. There were more than three soldiers even in the original.

It is interesting to note how, amongst many other changes, the specific reason Zack and Cloud are heading for Midgar is altered...although, if I remember correctly, in both cases they're just kind of doing it, and then the reasons are elaborated upon during the journey. All I wanted to point out was that reuniting with Aeris is still referred to in the OG, even though she's not mentioned by name, when he says "I got a place I can crash for a while...No wait, the mother lives there too...yep...gotta change my plans!", implying that the Gainsborough house was his initial destination. Although I guess you could say he was just planning on 'using' Aeris as a place of lodging rather than 'reuniting' with her

She was mentioned, but not as his reason for going there. He brought her up in such an offhand manner (e.g. "a place I can crash for a while") that -- between that and not remembering that she lives with Elmyra until he was almost knocking on Midgar's door -- she largely comes off as an afterthought.

Not to say he was using her or didn't care about her, but she was not his explicit reason for going there, as she was in Crisis Core.

Last Order was Zack's story too, meant to be canon. It ends with Zack getting sniped by the BC Turks, then credits. The final battle didn't do away with long cutscenes, long cutscenes and a futile battle were put in just to wank Zack a bit more.

I never took Last Order to end with Zack getting sniped (that was shown to be the regular army targeting Cloud, by the way, not the Turks). We see Zack rescue Cloud from that sniper's bullet in the back of the yellow truck, then there's a notably long pause, and only then do we hear the gunshot that wounds Zack -- and it's the same audio that played in the original version of AC in Cloud's flashback. Zack had been on foot there, wounded while running.

In any case, even though LO is no longer canon and doesn't matter much now, I will say the presentation there and in the original version of AC gave a pretty good sense of why Zack would lose to a much smaller force than what took him down in CC -- namely, that he was wounded in the back.

 

[hian]

What? I am so lost. The fight itself happens only in CC... unless that is not what you are referring to, because I have a feeling it isn't.

No it doesn't. It happens in the flash-back you get in the original as well when going back to the Shinra mansion in Nibelheim at a later point in the game.

Or are you talking about another fight? I'm specifically talking about Zack's end against the Shinra MPs.

I agree with you on one thing, the amount of soldiers is overwhelming. But to suggest Zack's final stand doesn't have any substance is wrong. You go through the entire game as Zack building up to to his last moments fighting for his life. This is the reason why I specifically stated in my last post that it's OK in the OG because Zack is a side character, but in CC Zack is the protagonist and I don't think they wanted to end the game with him fighting three soldiers and not being able to take them on.

It isn't wrong. What you describe as the fight's substance here would equally be true even if the fight didn't end with him fighting a small army - that's why that aspect (the "over-the-topness" of it) is without substance. It is just flash.

Again, Zack killed three MPs off screen before being shot in the back by two others.

Again, if they had scaled Zack's strength properly from the beginning of the game, then the end would not necessitate tons of MPs to begin with, nor would it feel "underwhelming".

If they had made a game where Zack was consistently shown to only fight 2-6 or so gun-wielding enemies at the time, then you would not be making this argument right now, because then an ending keeping true to the scene in the OG would make perfect sense even within the context of the game.

That's my criticism here.
They should have kept Zack's power-level in a reasonable place consistent with the original narrative, and then used the scene as it was.

These scenes have their problems, but they aren't the same as that of Zack's final stand.

And that's not the argument I made either.
What I argued is that Zack's last stand (just like the fight scenes in AC etc.) implies the capabilities of people like Zack, one of which would be Cloud - and that those capabilities introduces
plot-holes for the original game.

They were not plot-holes in the original when it was first released though, because then it was never suggested that people like Cloud could cut concrete and steel to pieces, run on walls, or fight small armies of gun-wielding people.

Again the amount of soldiers is overwhelming, but it makes more sense than these ones you listed and these don't defend your argument.

1.) No it doesn't, and 2.) yes it does. I've argued why that is the case. You did not, and so this dismissal is unwarranted.

The entire last bit of the game is building up to it in the background with constant encounters from Shinra soldier and robots before hand, and the constant hunting by the Turks.(This is on top of ending the conflict with Genesis).

And as I've said - that's why CC - at least in terms of its consistency to the source material - is badly written.

Please tell me how that entire last bit of CC and the last battle have no substance like Sephiroth destroying the Junon cannon, Cloud v Seph Advent Children, Seph v mako pod(which is really just an oversight). Cause I'm not seeing it.

Again, to clarify, I am not saying that Zack having a final fight has no substance - I am saying that from a perspective of choreography it has no substance, because it does not add anything to the plot that could not have been added with a less flashy and over-the-top scene, and literally detracts from the story because it hurts the plot of the game it's supposed to be a prequel for.

That's why it has no substance - the exact same way as Sephiroth destroying Junon, or Cloud vs Sephiroth in AC, for the exact same reasons.

As for Sephiroth bashing his blade on the pods in the reactor being an oversight? How on earth can you know that?
And how does that even make sense to assume?

They took the time and effort to animate that scene specifically, and if they really wanted Sephiroth to come off as a bad-ass capable of cutting stuff like the Junon canon in half, then guess what? Having a couple of the pods split open wouldn't have been all that much work.

I mean, they bothered making additions to the pre-rendered backgrounds when Cloud was putting batteries in stuff to climb the plate, but they couldn't be bothered to put even a couple of scratches on the tanks?

No, in FFVII there is a decided lack of swords doing whatever it is they're doing in the compilation - so much so that to call it an "over-sight" rather than it simply not being there because it wasn't a part of the original vision, beggars belief to my mind.

If we are just talking about the soldiers and how massive that battalion is, then I am in agreement, but to suggest that the entire final bit of the game has no substance behind it is my biggest beef.

That's not what I suggested. What I was arguing is that the choreography and style for that section of the game is all flash and no substance - not that there is not some substance to the theme of Zack's death etc.

 

[Unit-01]

Ok so I just misunderstood and misread quite a bit then. I've got nothing to argue now, and what I meant by Seph v Mako Pod was, it was an oversight by the developers to include the Junon Cannon being cut in CC without looking back at the Mako Pod scene and being like "Umm no."I should've looped those two together, but didn't.

To end, I said this before. I think we need a scene that is in the middle between the two versions of that fight. Because they are opposites of each other in terms of scale and both are canon in a way. But looping back to the topic of this thread, at this point who knows what they will do in the Remake. Quite frankly it will be based of CC than the OG scene, but we've gotta wait and see.