Secret Wars (2015) [Marvel]

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Next up:
-Sam Humphries and Alti Firmansyah's "Star-Lord and Kitty Pryde" (looks like the art will be nice, but, uh, what?)
-Si Spurrier and Kev Walker's "Marvel Zombies" (not to be confused with "Age of Ultron vs. Marvel Zombies)

They really are trying every fucking thing for this event, aren't they? Readers are going to be one big focus group. Which is a great idea, mind you, and I love that they're doing it. It's just illuminating for me how little I'm actually interested in reading about in comics these days.

Still, a really exciting time. Can't wait for May.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Even though it won't have anything to do with the classic Runaways, I think I may have to get this one because of Stevenson.

This sounds kinda cool… I really wish I didn't have such an absolutely awful experience communicating with her that's made me just totally opposed to supporting her at all (and the new Thor Annual of hers totally wasn't worth it for me). :/




X :neo:
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
What happened?

She was one of those people really loudly yelling about, "Change the 12th Doctor to a woman" people (despite apparently not watching the show), and made shittons of comments that it was the only way to make the show have representation. When I attempted to make a comment to her about it only working if you have a good story motivation and don't use it as a gimmick, and the show has other opportunities for representation - I got passive aggressively mocked by her on Twitter (making mocking comments about our conversation rather than replying) & she strawmanned my argument and was just a completely single-mindedly unapologetic bitch about it. Then she tried to pretend like her scathing comments weren't about me when I publicly called her out on it on tumblr and tagged it with her name, and I got even more negative comments, & nothing even remotely resembling an apology, so...

Fuck her.

(I've got a whole thing on my tumblr about it from when it happened, but yeah)
:(




X :neo:
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
I hate that you had that experience, X, and you should have been given a better chance to explain -- but I think I know why it went down like that.

I've been involved in a discussion about diversity in representation at CBR recently, and I'm going to quote here a couple of comments I've made there that I think speak to this matter (the comments I responded to are also worth reading):

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Okay, I hear you about the ease of digital making event buying easier. I'd say that the same applies to non-event books, too, but I do get your point.

As for the left behind thing, I don't get that same feeling, although I can see why folks would sometimes feel that way. For long time readers, the comics have kind of grown with us. They started out as all ages kind of material, then shifted into being more for young adults, and then finally they were aimed almost exclusively to adult males. So for those of us that got into them at a certain time, they've been mostly age appropriate throughout our lives. I think this is why many readers have a strong sense of propriety with these characters.

But I think that trend was kind if a bad thing. It's what made comics such a niche medium. It's fostered this mentality that these characters "belong" to a certain demographic.

But the truth is, as the movies have kind of shown, these characters and stories should be for everyone. That's how it should be. Little kids should be enjoying Spider-Man and X-Men for the same reasons I did. Women should be able to enjoy the comics just as much as the movies. And so on.

The books need to adapt with this in mind. So if reaching new people means ignoring stories from 25 years ago that doesn't really matter except for readers my age to be able to say "no, that can't be, because back in Avengers 232 Hank Pym clearly stated that blah blah blah".

I mean, when you boil it down, should superheroes really be just for adults? Isn't that kind of really weird when you think about it?
Excellent post. I would say the best in this thread if not for this one:
I think the flaw with this line of thinking is that seeing books come out that don't cater to you (general you) does not mean Marvel is not catering to you AT ALL, just that they are not catering to you EXCLUSIVELY. Not every book is meant to appeal to every reader, that's the point. They are not trying to switch to a new demographic while leaving the old one in the dust, they are trying to expand their overall readerbase by adding to it. Though none of the fans will enjoy all the books in their line, they are not meant to. I guess if you are used to being catered to pretty much exclusively, seeing them catering to other people at all, seeing books clearly not directed to you come out, may feel weird, or that you are being left behind, I get that. And maybe digs at the past are not called for, but in general there are still plenty of books that old school fans* can enjoy. Actually, I don't really understand why some of the books being published in their attempts at diversifying their line can not be enjoyed by older fans. The books are not written in such a way that I think it would alienate old school readers in most cases, but whatever. And I don't think it's the case that old fans outnumber the newer fans, I think it's just that older fans are more vocal, especially on a place like CBR. The newer fans are congregating on places like Tumblr, not so much here or in comic shops. A place like this can probably feel quite intimidating to a new fan, there is a strong gatekeeper mentality among many older fans that can be frustrating to deal with. You do see some newer fans come here, a couple who end up being quite prolific posters, but* I think they are the exception. Most newer fans if they come here at all tend to stick to threads for some of the books and characters that are appealing to a newer/different audience, assuming that thread isn't overrun by old school fans complaining, so a lot of people here may not even see them most of the time if they do not look in those threads. (not that this is much different from a lot of older fans, really. We all like to talk about what we care about, not so much what we don't.)
This is the most insightful post I've ever seen on this entire forum. As I was reading through this thread and formulating my thoughts, this is just about everything I wanted to say, and put as well as it could be put.

The only thing missing here relates to something else hawkeyefan said earlier:

hawkeyefan said:
I kind of get the feeling left behind thing, to an extent. It just seems weird because whenever the topic of diversity and race comes up, it seems like everyone expects only people who are in some way similar to the character in question can relate to the character or be interested in him or her. It just strikes me as odd. And it's an idea that kind if gets reinforced by both sides of the debate.

I relate to a variety of different characters for different reasons. And most of the time I find that the ones that are the most seemingly different from me are the ones I enjoy the most.
For readers of less represented demographics, it's usually less a question of being able to relate to a character who is different (the fact that non-White, non-heterosexual, non-gender conforming, non-male fans exist prove that it can be done easily enough), and more a question of whether they get an option to do anything else. This is a question that the historically targeted comic reader has not had to ask themselves.

For readers who fall into that classic comic readership, feeling threatened (whether consciously or instinctively) by a notion that they are no longer receiving those exclusive catering privileges Raye spoke of is infuriatingly ironic in that these readers don't realize that being asked to identify with a character who doesn't immediately serve as an avatar to them is what everyone who doesn't fit that mold has been asked to do all these years if they wanted to participate in the hobby.

This leads to a mistake folks better represented by the classic paradigm frequently make that demonstrates a frighteningly profound lack of familiarity in identifying with those other readers (i.e. other people), and renders a constructive dialogue damn near impossible: This is when you see folks saying perhaps well-intended yet immeasurably insulting things like "As long as it's developed organically, I don't see a problem with it," "It's just when it feels forced that it bothers me" and -- the ever-present standby -- "I have nothing against a character being [whatever minority] as long as there's an actual reason for it."

On the surface, it sounds like -- and they probably even think it is -- talking about artistic standards, but it's actually as much about that as GamerGate lived up to "It's about ethics in gaming journalism." Which is to say it's not about the quality of writing at all.

In illustrating what I mean by this, I'll let the words of a gay friend of mine speak for the matter: "I don't need a fucking justification for my existence."

If White, straight, male or gender-conforming characters require no "actual reason for it," why would anyone else? The implication here is that those demographics are inherently better -- a standard that anyone else is deviating from and for which they must then make efforts to have their deviation approved. It's like being deemed to have the status of "making it work" is a charitable concession that the "better" demographics are making without necessarily needing to.
----

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It seems more to me that Marvel is trying to pull in demographics rather than those demographics being key buyers at this point. A lot of their titles meant to sell to these demographics aren't really lighting up the charts unfortunately, even when they are well written. Pandering to specific demographics will just end up with new stereotypes like we are seeing with the female Thor. It's all a matter of writing, just make three dimensional characters that just happen to be muslim, or east asian, or female, or gay, or whatnot, but making these pieces of characters' identities being the sole point of their existence is not creating human beings, but caricatures, people are more than some aspect of them, more than being members of a sociological or scientific group they are a part of by being born into them or unintentionally becoming part of them, etc. Create individuals and build up relations from there, and people will read about those characters not because they are an aboriginal, or have bi-polar disorder, or Brazilian, but because they are good characters that readers either just like to read about or can relate to due to their personalities.
It looks like the two bolded portions of your post don't agree with one another. At one end, you say that if they just write quality comics, people will read them. At the other end, you say titles they hope will appeal to new demographics tend not to sell well even when they are well-written -- which almost seems to imply that they shouldn't bother.

I'm not going to accuse you of being racist, as you probably meant all of this in good faith, but, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, comments like this, even when said sincerely, are not constructive. These are the kinds of claims racism gets hidden behind. Remarks like "I have no problem with diversity in representation, but ..." -- and it's when you find yourself constructing a sentence like that you're probably feeding into racism without even knowing it.

There are only two ways that sentence ever gets finished. Sure, the precise wording may differ here and there, but it comes down to either "... there needs to be a good reason for it" or "... I just have a problem with how they're doing it." I've already gone over the former, so let's look at the latter.

These claims that "I don't have a problem with diversity, I just have a problem with how they're doing it" ring shamefully hollow. The reality becomes that there really isn't a way the claimant is actually going to be satisfied with it.

Any attempt at diversity gets labeled "pandering" from the outset if any attention is called to it. Meanwhile, Tony and Steve can be featured on everything from Duck Tape to soft drink cans and that's just "merchandising" and "promoting." God forbid, though, that a comics editor goes on CNN for a few minutes to talk about a new racial minority character or a new female character gets announced on "The View" -- a show the prevalent demographics consuming superhero comics aren't likely to be watching anyway.

Nope, that stuff's pandering.

You'll even have folks acknowledging that Marvel is a business and that it makes sense for them to try appealing to more demographics -- but, again, "I just have a problem with how they're going about it." Seemingly, the only way it could get approved is if they create characters who "just happen to be [insert minority]" and then make no effort to actually promote them for their business purposes. Apparently, resigning the effort to failure from the start -- in other words, the promise that the deviant will disappear and order will be restored -- is the only acceptable way to go about it.

That's not even getting into the confusing notion of whatever "just happens to be [minority]" is supposed to mean. I'm pretty sure all fictional characters, including the White males, were created by someone who came up with them and decided on each of their attributes. No fictional character "just happens to be" White, Hispanic, gay, straight, etc.

If you're confused, by the way, as to how the contradictory statements "I have no problem with diversity as long as there's a good reason for it" and "I have no problem with it as long as they're creating characters who just happen to be [minority]" are both the go-to racism/chauvinism defenses when condemning attempts at promoting diversity ... well, you're not alone. It is quite the intellectual quagmire.

This is why we have a problem. On sight, any hint of losing exclusive privilege -- not the privilege itself, mind you; just the exclusive access to it -- is always (seriously, always) greeted with an angry knee-jerk psychological reaction by the historically more privileged. Then, instead of acknowledging it for what it is and trying to work through it, the whole thing gets denied and covered up with notions that whoever is bringing diversity into the matter is the actual bad guy because they're doing it wrong -- again, whatever that means.

That reaction is probably some evolutionary, biological mechanism doodad or other, but we have a responsibility to own up to it and be better than that.
----

tl;dr: It's a lot easier to get away with opposing diversity while pretending to support it -- or, hell, even believing that you do. A lot of people hide bigotry even from themselves behind comments like those I spoke of, or even what you said about there being plenty of opportunities for representation elsewhere. To someone who didn't know you (and didn't give you a chance), it may have looked like you were taking some of these fallacious positions.

Hell, there was a guy in the thread who posted this off-the-wall bullshit:

Mark said:
And to tell you the truth I am really getting tired of hearing about diversity. Androids, aliens, demons, half demons, quarter demons... That isn't enough diversity?
Now, while my discussion was about comics and yours was about "Doctor Who," they're close enough. For every sincere message like yours that Stevenson got, she probably got more like the one from that dumbass I just quoted.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
• Here's the Twitter Convo itself (make sure to start from the top). They're split weirdly sometimes delay because I'm posting from a phone which makes it cut around the 140 char. limit awkwardly. Also, I should add that she blocked me from her account completely AFTER I called her out specifically on tumblr over it, when she kept posting the sort of scathing passive-aggressive responses she did (which you'd have to find on her Twitter account by going all the way back to the same time that these were made since they weren't directly to me, & I CBA to scroll back through all of her shittons of Tweets from an incognito browser just for that).

I transcribed them & summary of all of it on two places on my tumblr you can find through the links and whatnot in that convo if you're really interested, but honestly - I don't think it's worth the time 'cause it's just agonizing over shit that people said two years ago, and I'd rather just ignore anything she does instead of brood over it again line-by-line.



The tl;dr end the story - is that instead of apologizing or attempting to own up to making those sorts of passive-aggressive posts about me, she sent me a message on my tumblr that said that I was misattributing it all to myself (despite the fact that the only tweets she was making then were to/about me at ALL of the times it occurred) and pretended like she'd done nothing wrong.

If she'd owned up to it at ALL, I'd have been ok with it, but instead of any form of apology, I got a "that wasn't directly sent to you, so I don't have to apologize" attitude of blowing me off and that's something that just completely shut me off of being even remotely interested in anything that she did, 'cause that's a shitty way to treat anyone. So that's what took me from being a HUGE fan of hers to utterly wanting nothing to do with her or her work.

THAT ALL BEING SAID. My personal bullshit aside, I still hope that Runaways it's a badass comic that other people can enjoy, but I hope that there are even more badass/better titles still on their way.




X :neo:
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
It looks like this is gonna be a lot like Guardians 3000 - which I read a couple issues of, but didn't keep going with. I'd be curious ta see what you think of it.




X :neo:
 

Tennyo

Higher Further Faster
It sounds to me like this event has a bazillion different things going on that I will probably wait an extra six months to read on the Unlimited app. Maybe.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
I don't blame you. It would be a nightmare to try following all of them.

Of course, Marvel is being very up front about all of this in saying you should only try the titles that interest you, that most of the tie-ins will be fairly self-contained, that the main mini-series can be read on its own, and that everything won't be for everyone. They're also identifying which tie-ins are more significant in terms of the overall landscape (so far, they've only said this about "Thors").

I'll update the first post in this thread at some point with a complete list of all the tie-ins.
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
Marc Guggenheim and Carmine Di Giandomenico's "X-Tinction Agenda" was also announced today.

This is another I really wasn't expecting. They're starting to scrape the bottom of the barrel here. Can't say I'm terribly interested (the original crossover was one of the least interesting X-Men crossovers to me), but it will probably be another decent one I may check out down the road.

Whoa, was not expecting this. i look forward to the Havok side of this, but i gotta roll my eyes at beast again.
 

Tennyo

Higher Further Faster
I don't blame you. It would be a nightmare to try following all of them.

Of course, Marvel is being very up front about all of this in saying you should only try the titles that interest you, that most of the tie-ins will be fairly self-contained, that the main mini-series can be read on its own, and that everything won't be for everyone. They're also identifying which tie-ins are more significant in terms of the overall landscape (so far, they've only said this about "Thors").

I'll update the first post in this thread at some point with a complete list of all the tie-ins.

That's good, because this is all getting a little silly and I probably won't read most of it. I thought Spider-Verse was pushing it in terms of tie-ins. This is just crazy, though.

But I do know what tie-ins I do want to read and if I can enjoy them as is then it's all good to me. :)
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Maybe? For whatever reason, Swords & Sorcery style things are sometimes not as interesting for me in comics format, despite the fact that I love the genre. :\ I haven't figured out why.




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The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
I feel you there, but it's a great writer and a great artist. Also, I want to support Marvel's decision to try branching out so that by the end of the year they don't want to just say, "Fuck it, traditional superhero comics are all people will buy from us."
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Next up: Peter David and Greg Land's "Future Imperfect"

Sucks that Land is on art duties, but how awesome that Ruby Summers (or some version of her) is involved in the fight against Maestro. Without knowing more about which Ruby this is, I'm not sure that I'm on board yet, but even if not, I feel like this will at least be one worth checking out in the trades.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Next up: Peter David and Greg Land's "Future Imperfect"

Sucks that Land is on art duties, but how awesome that Ruby Summers (or some version of her) is involved in the fight against Maestro. Without knowing more about which Ruby this is, I'm not sure that I'm on board yet, but even if not, I feel like this will at least be one worth checking out in the trades.

If I'm not mistaken, this has already started to be built up with Miguel's appearance in the end of All-New X-Factor
all of what used to be 2099 isn't there anymore
, and then fleshed out more Spider-man 2099 with
Sorceress Supreme Strange as Maestro's captive
, so I'm absolutely going to be reading this one. Now that Ruby Summers looks like she's a part of it, there's zero question. I'm picking this up as it goes.



X :neo:
 
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