Sephiroth, Genesis and Angeal

[Cat on Mars]

Existential grief resonates with the Jenova in them and opens them up to rejecting their previous lives.

Sounds legit.

The fact Angeal admits to Zack that he feels as if he's "mired in a fog" and sometimes unable to think clearly illustrates there's something inside him trying to tug him onto a path of destruction.

I remember that part but I didn't give it much thought. I guess it's the best explanation we have had about the process.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

That's probably as good of an explanation as we're ever likely to get. It does fit well enough.

Seph freaks out right after questioning if he was made in one of those pods, like something is in his head. And it was implied in the old Ultimania that Hojo arranged for Sephiroth to go to Nibelheim to see what might happen if he and Jenova came near one another.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

There's also evidence for a really nasty feedback loop going on with Genesis and Angeal and their Jenova genes. One of the primary traits of Jenova is that she is a shapeshifter. And that she can read people's minds and shapeshift based on people's thoughts/ideas. Question is... how does Jenova determine "what" to shapeshift into?

It's only once Genesis gets injured does he find out about his own origins... that is that he was a product of the Jenova Project. And that is when he first starts getting "monster" traits. As far as I can tell, the problem before this was just that his wound wasn't healing for some reason. Unfortunately, the way Jenova's DNA interacts with Genesis' own DNA isn't the greatest, and his own DNA starts falling apart... which effects his mental state and causes his body to break down which makes him more monstrous. And then he starts making copies which wrecks his DNA even more which makes the degradation worse...

Angeal does this too where it's only once he finds out about his own origins that he grows his wings. And automatically associates them with being a monster. He doesn't make as may copies, so his degradation is a lot slower, but he wallows alot more in being a monster than Genesis does. He also pulls a very nasty shapeshift right before fighting Zack for the last time, which also fuses a lot of other monster DNA in with his. And his degradation goes from way less than Genesis to way more very, very quickly.

So I'd say there's a good chance that Genesis and Angeal get "monster" traits because they think they are monsters... rather than thinking they are monsters because they have monster traits. Which then seems to get worse and worse every time they do something that involves manipulating their own DNA...

It's almost like it's a self-fulling prophecy... or Jenova's genes reacting to the thoughts and desires of the person who has them...

 

[Clement Rage]

Their motivations always seemed simple enough to me.

Genesis found out that the place he thought he was loved was really a zoo enclosure, and so said 'fuck you guys' and killed them all. Something about his wound left him terminally ill due to that same experiment, so he wants a cure while getting revenge on Shinra.

Angeal left Shinra, initially joining Genesis, but instead was betrayed and used to create monsters, which is horrifying to him (because they kill people, not because of any philosophical reasons). He wants to prevent more monsters being made out of him, but can't bring himself to kill Genesis. Zack is the only person he can trust to kill him who will actually kill him with no strings attached, if Shinra or Genesis kill him he will be harvested by them to create more monsters. He takes that monster form on purpose to get rid of all Hollander's Angeal copies, so no more killing machines can be made out of him.

Sephiroth freaks out at the thought that he was a manufactured weapon... but doesn't crack until he reads up on it in Shinra manor. He goes 'Holy crap they're harvesting my mom in Nibelheim reactor, I've gotta save her', with a side order of burning down the town that created him a la Genesis.

They're all conscious decisions, I never got any kind of biological imperative from them.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

The impression I got from Crisis Core is that Genesis' family, adoptive though they might be, really did love him.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

They did. They even lied to Shinra about him. It seems Genesis assumed they were in on the whole thing (his dad was Mayor of a town Shinra had made to cover up the Banora underground) and killed them without ever asking for an explanation. Which... everything I can find about Banora suggests it was a Shinra Town through and through and had very close ties to Shinra. Which was why Genesis, Angeal and Gillian were allowed to be there in the first place. If Genesis and Angeal had displayed Jenova effects in Banora... Shinra would have found out.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Well, they seemingly displayed something since Genesis's parents lied about them to keep them safe.

Of course, Genesis wanted to go join SOLDIER when they got old enough, so there went that.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Is that the canon? That joining SOLDIER was Genesis' idea, not Shinra's?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Is that the canon? That joining SOLDIER was Genesis' idea, not Shinra's?

Yeah, and being his best friend, Angeal followed him in (over Gillian's protests).

 

[Shademp]

Source: Crisis Core Ultimania Scenario Q&A

Q3-2: There are those called “G Series SOLDIERS,” are these other children created within Project G besides Genesis and Angeal? Were they all born in Banora, and were they monitored with the anticipation of them joining SOLDIER when they were older?

A3-2: Of the children born because of Project G, Genesis and Angeal were the only survivors.

It was Genesis’ foster parents duty to observe him, and to stay in communication with ShinRa. It is feasible that Genesis received an education from ShinRa because of his parents. However Genesis’ feelings had changed, and it can be surmised that they came to a point where they didn’t mind deceiving ShinRa for the sake of their son. On the other hand, since Gillian considered a relationship with ShinRa to be foolish, she completely refused to allow Angeal to go into SOLDIER’s special training. At any rate, they weren’t given the systematic specialized education for becoming a SOLDIER and their relation to ShinRa was still kept secret.

However, through ShinRa’s information management, public opinion came to be “ShinRa should undertake protecting our livelihood” and “SOLDIERs are the allies of the citizens, fighting to protect their peaceful way of life.” Particularly, Banora as a village closely connected to ShinRa had many supporters of the company. For that reason, not only Genesis and Angeal, but many of the villagers took jobs related to ShinRa, recognizing it as making them a success in life and a winner.

Following that trend, Genesis volunteered for SOLDIER and as his close friend, Angeal volunteered as well.

So it was only because of Shinra's successful propaganda machine that Genesis and Angeal ended up taking Shinra jobs, the latter doing so even against his mother's wishes.

 

[Torrie]

It's almost like it's a self-fulling prophecy... or Jenova's genes reacting to the thoughts and desires of the person who has them...

It was the same with Geostigma, wasn't it? When people lost hope and prepared to face fearful odds, they contracted it and indeed were doomed to die.

They're all conscious decisions, I never got any kind of biological imperative from them.

Sounds perfectly reasonable. I don't see any contradiction though. First, they find out the truth, then Jenova kicks in, then they take conscious decisions about what to do with their life from that moment.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Source: Crisis Core Ultimania Scenario Q&A

So it was only because of Shinra's successful propaganda machine that Genesis and Angeal ended up taking Shinra jobs, the latter doing so even against his mother's wishes.

Additional source:

Genesis Fan Club Newsletter 666

This issue is for the newcomers to Red Leather. As a welcome gift, here is some basic information about Genesis.

Hobby: Reading. He happened upon a copy of LOVELESS in his parents' study. It has been his favorite work ever since.

Why he joined SOLDIER: The heroics of Sephiroth, who is the same age as Genesis, inspired him to work for the good of the world.

We will update you on any new information as it becomes available.

There's also that newspaper clipping about Genesis's prize-winning apple juice from when he was younger. There he is quoted as saying "My dream is for my parents and me to serve the hero Sephiroth our apples one day. Since we are close in age, I would like to show him what I've accomplished in my life."

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I always dismissed the guff in the fan club newsletters as mere Shinra propaganda. I mean, they're not going to admit that he's a genetic experiment which they turned into a super-soldier, of course they're going to put a heroic slant on things.

It just seems - I don't know, unlikely, somehow, that Shinra would more or less abandon the two project G products to their own devices, but then, when one of them decided to apply for SOLDIER, say, "OK, sure, whatever." And then a little later, "Oh, wow, turns out you're kind of good at this, who'd a thunk?"

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I always dismissed the guff in the fan club newsletters as mere Shinra propaganda.

It's unlikely in that situation that they would be sending out the e-mails of rumors that Genesis and Angeal were still alive after Shin-Ra declared them dead.

 

[Clement Rage]

It just seems - I don't know, unlikely, somehow, that Shinra would more or less abandon the two project G products to their own devices, but then, when one of them decided to apply for SOLDIER, say, "OK, sure, whatever." And then a little later, "Oh, wow, turns out you're kind of good at this, who'd a thunk?"

Big company. Whoever the recruiter was wasn't in on the experiment, maybe.

Genesis' parents did love him, but he apparently didn't buy it.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

It just seems - I don't know, unlikely, somehow, that Shinra would more or less abandon the two project G products to their own devices, but then, when one of them decided to apply for SOLDIER, say, "OK, sure, whatever." And then a little later, "Oh, wow, turns out you're kind of good at this, who'd a thunk?"

That would be because they didn't. Banora was founded by Shinra. It was essentially a retirement home for ex-Shinra employees.

What happened was that Genesis and Angeal didn't have any active Jenova characteristics when they were born (or what Shinra would have thought as Cetra characteristics) and were thought to be failures. So there wasn't any reason for them to take up space in the Science Department. Gillian wanted out anyway, but instead of actively running from Shinra, she essentially retired. Genesis was given to the Mayor of Banora and his wife to raise (and report back if anything happened with him). So Genesis and Anegal pretty much grew up being watched by a town-full of ex-Shinra Employees for their entire life.

As far as I can tell, no one pushed Genesis and Angeal into applying for SOLDIER anymore than Cloud was pushed into it. Genesis wanted to be a hero like Sephiroth was and wanted to get out of Banora and Angeal tagged along with his best friend. I'm guessing Shinra didn't mind because (a) Genesis and Angeal would literally be working for Shinra and (b) they'd been written off as failures already and nothing seems to have happened to suggest that had changed. In fact... nothing seems to indicate their Jenova cells were working until after they had gone through the entire SOLDIER program and had been SOLDIER 1st Classes for a while. Given that people like Zack and Cloud exist in the FFVII world, being stronger than most people doesn't seem to be something that is an indicator for being a Cetra/having active Jenova cells.

It's not until Genesis and Angeal really finds out their own origins that they start showing monster traits. Which would probably have been some time after whatever mako and Jenova Cells they would have gotten exposed to as part of the SOLDIER program. If there was a physical catalist to their Jenova traits waking up, I'd have expected those traits to wake up a lot earlier. Instead they just seem to do hardly anything indicative of Jenova until Genesis and Angeal actually find out about Jenova and their connection with her.

Genesis' parents did love him, but he apparently didn't buy it.

It's not that he didn't buy it as a kid and more that he found out as an adult that they were supposed to be reporting on him to Shinra. And he assumed that they were doing that. Which given how Shinra works is... kinda understandable.

 

[Clement Rage]

Genesis took that wound to trigger it, didn't he? He had some kind of reaction to Mako and then Angeal donated cells to him. Sounds like Hollander did something to trigger the transformation.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Nothing to suggest their Jenova cells were activated? I was clearly utterly mistaken then when I assumed the whole reason they and Sephiroth were the only three first classes - until Zack came along - was because they were the three with Jenova cells. Obviously they weren't on a par with Sephiroth but they were clearly far superior to ordinary human beings. But you're telling me the fact that they were the only other two First Classes was just coincidence and nothing to do with their Jenova DNA?

Cloud wsn't stronger than most people until he received Jenova cells. His killing of Sephiroth is one of those instances when human beings, moved by overpowering emotions, display a feat of strength far in excess of their usual ability.

Despite being a 1st class, Zack was never on a par with Sephiroth, Angeal or Genesis. He couldn't outfight Sephiroth at the Nibelheim Reactor. He was only able to defeat Angeal because Angeal was degrading and wanted to die. Likewise with Genesis, he could only win when Genesis had physically degraded to quite a considerable degree.

However dismissive Hojo may have been of Hollander's project in public, I simply cannot believe that he would completely ignore the two 'failures' as objects of potential study. He knows far too much about Jenova cells. He'll have been collecting data on them.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Nothing to suggest their Jenova cells were activated? I was clearly utterly mistaken then when I assumed the whole reason they and Sephiroth were the only three first classes - until Zack came along - was because they were the three with Jenova cells. Obviously they weren't on a par with Sephiroth but they were clearly far superior to ordinary human beings. But you're telling me the fact that they were the only other two First Classes was just coincidence and nothing to do with their Jenova DNA?

Yep. We don't even know if Sephiroth, Genesis and Angeal are the only other 1st Classes that exist. SOLDIER was around before the Jenova Project after all. Sephiroth, Genesis and Angeal are just the strongest 1st Class SOLDIERs and stand out from everyone. For that matter... every SOLDIER is exposed to Jenova cells and mako. They all have them. And Angeal and Genesis are on an extreme end of a bell curve. Zack can keep up with both Angeal and Genesis (even before Hojo got him) and Zack didn't have any more Jenova exposure than any other SOLDIER had at the time.

CC starts out with Angeal putting Zack through his last round of tests before Zack becomes a 1st Class. So even before all the nonsense of CC started, Zack was being considered for being promoted to 1st Class and... everyone acts like him being promoted to 1st Class is something that isn't unusual. So yeah, there are more than likely more 1st Class SOLDIERs than Sephiroth, Genesis and Angeal in Shinra.

Cloud wsn't stronger than most people until he received Jenova cells. His killing of Sephiroth is one of those instances when human beings, moved by overpowering emotions, display a feat of strength far in excess of their usual ability.

Cloud has always been oddly strong, even as a kid. His defining moment is him going after Tifa and walking away from a really bad fall that puts her in a week-long-coma. Any strength he got from mako exposure and Jenova just built off that. The irony of Cloud's character is that he's stronger than most people are, but doesn't have an accurate view of himself. He's never said to not have gotten into SOLDIER because he physically didn't meet the standards, but because he didn't have a strong enough sense to hold out against mako poisoning.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Crisis Core just went down even further in my estimation.

 

[Clement Rage]

I always assumed there were always more 1sts, they just weren't as famous. Hojo may have been keeping an eye on them, but he keeps a lot of things to himself as a rule.

Zack wasn't on par with Sephiroth, because no one is. Angeal and Genesis is debateable, he sure thrashes Gen at the endgame when he appears to be healed, after going through a dungeon first. Angeal doesn't really fight to win, and Zack doesn't want to fight him, so it's hard to tell.

 

[waw]

Between resurrecting an old thread or starting a new one... I decided to just continue the conversation here.

Warning, this may be speculation. Please don't read this and look for canon answers. I'm not making stuff up but asking about my interpretation/head canon.

Elsewhere, we've been discussing some of the unique powers we can probably assume are remnants of the magic of the Cetra (their descendants). We have this weird Inspire bit for Reeve (now some of this was just development, so it's hard to know what's just unsaid here), the SND dive for Shelke, and arguably all of the Tsviets have something too.

Now, before Before Crisis, I was under the impression that the Turks' "official" job was to find SOLDIER recruits, and after BC came out I became a bit and truly puzzled. If this were true, they were meant to find suitable candidates, why weren't the Turks candidates? They were strong, resilient, loyal, driven, and frankly, strong willed. I've always assumed someone like Rude would make a good SOLDIER.

But the puzzle pieces are here. Roche and his motorcycle make me think of this even more.

Are SOLDIER candidates only SOLDIER candidates if they display a possible Cetra connection-some unique power that we may read as latent magic, that could be "awakened" by Jenova Cells and Mako bathing?

Zack has a weird power to push his emotions through a limit break, while channeling the memories of those he loves.
Genesis and Angeal were discarded as youths as they were deemed failures - they didn't show any signs of enhancement then. (But maybe kept among Shinra employees in order to see if they would show signs later in life?).
Sephiroth certainly is exceptional among humans. Not just strong but his read on people and affinity for magic I think.

Do we ever have confirmation that this idea is or isn't true? Is it all just reading in between the lines?

Finally to the above question about SOLDIER 1st Class, I'm under the impression, but no confirmation that each "unit" would have it's own 1st class "commander," and I think 13 or 14 units exist, so I imagine there's 14 1st class folks at any one time. Ragnarok Unit is runing around, supposedly the strongest (I honestly imagine this is Sephiroth's unit if it's the strongest, and his successor was the one wiped out over the Tsviets buuuut who knows?) The units are, admittedly, not necessarily shown to be super organized. My guess at this is Angeal mentoring Zack, with Kunsel and Luxiere all seeming to be part of the same cohort. Zack gives his speech to what I presume is his "unit."

 

[Makoeyes987]

No, I don't think there's any "Cetra connection" involved here. It's strength. Those who carry an aptitude for power and the ability to withstand the arduous surgery, exposure to mako and (sometimes) Jenova cells are able to make the cut. But no, it's not just anything Cetra or requiring Jenova.

That power comes from mako energy, whatever else is included helps as a bonus but it's not some Cetra factor. Weiss the Immaculate doesn't have Cetra powers or Jenova. Neither does Nero. But what do they have? Power. They're augmented past the point of normal human limits. They're superhuman. The power of mako combined with general aptitude and the ability to withstand the process creates power.

Oh and Sephiroth doesn't have a unit. He's peerless, other people would admittedly just slow him down. So he's deployed on his own. The unit numbers seem to be nothing more than a legacy of the past since they only existed in the time that Restrictors we're normal SOLDIERs.

 

[waw]

Thanks. I had a feeling I was holding on to some indpendent/archaic notions that jus weren't keeping with modern understandings of the material. I needed to know if others were seeing it too.

And just to be clear, I don't mean to say that folks like Reeve and/or Shelke are Cetra or are using Cetra powers/magic, rather it's like some sort of recessive gene from generations back. And admittedly, this whole idea would just raise the question if it is magical power a candidate needs, why wasn't Reeve considered?

Your answer makes a lot of sense. Thanks!

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

It's neat that you should say that, though, Waw, because IIRC the original idea for "Jenova" is exactly what you said: it was a power latent in people's minds that, with the right catalyst and training, could evoke superpowers in them. I think this was a very early concept and subsequently discarded in favour of making Jenova more concrete.

I still don't accept that Angeal and Genesis just coincidentally joined SOLDIER. If that's really canon, it's terrible writing.