Sephiroth, Genesis and Angeal

[The Twilight Mexican]

And too darn strong to be worth going after unless he was actively opposing them.

Even if he was actively opposing them what could they have done to stop him?

Together, maybe the Tsviets and the Restrictors from Deepground could have pulled off beating him. That's about it, though.

 

[Harley Quinn]

Before Sephiroth's madness I never took that he liked being the big hero that ShinRa held him up to be. He knew he was a good killing machine, the best but in a situation where he wasn't fighting for a reason. So I think he was pretty lonely. But still the reason why he remained loyal to the company especially after finding out about the experiments on A and G is pretty mind boggling to me.

Being aloof about it after the fact doesn't tell us much, we don't see him when he is earning the rep fighting wars for Shinra. And again, Genesis was the one that killed every person in Banora, turned tons of SOLDIERs that willingly defected with him into his mindless clones, led an multiple assaults on Midgar that attacked civilians indiscriminately. Shinra is the one protecting people in Crisis Core. Hollander led the experiments on Genesis, and he's currently on Genesis' side. Why is it hard to believe Sephiroth or Zack would stick with Shinra in this crisis instead of walking and thus letting Genesis burn cities to the ground for his revenge?

To be fair that's at the beginning. Sephiroth and Zack do begin to find out about the dark side of ShinRa and do you truly believe Sephiroth wasn't aware of the dark side of ShinRa before Genesis left? Look at his attitude towards Hojo for example.
I truly believe Sephiroth knew more about ShinRa than he let on. He just chose to ignore it as it was all he knew. Not for one second do I buy that he thought ShinRa were a good, moral, ethical company.
And he could've left it didn't mean he had to join Genesis (who was morally corrupt as well) he could've left ShinRa and carved his own path. Whether that be fighting against or ShinRa or opening a shop that sold hair products

 

[Harley Quinn]

And too darn strong to be worth going after unless he was actively opposing them.

Even if he was actively opposing them what could they have done to stop him?

Together, maybe the Tsviets and the Restrictors from Deepground could have pulled off beating him. That's about it, though.

Ahh DoC I try to forget about that. It would've been interesting to see who came out on top. I know Nomura said there was nothing stronger than Sephy but when playing DoC I really did question this. Look Nero's crazy powers for example.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Before Sephiroth's madness I never took that he liked being the big hero that ShinRa held him up to be. He knew he was a good killing machine, the best but in a situation where he wasn't fighting for a reason. So I think he was pretty lonely. But still the reason why he remained loyal to the company especially after finding out about the experiments on A and G is pretty mind boggling to me.

Being aloof about it after the fact doesn't tell us much, we don't see him when he is earning the rep fighting wars for Shinra. And again, Genesis was the one that killed every person in Banora, turned tons of SOLDIERs that willingly defected with him into his mindless clones, led an multiple assaults on Midgar that attacked civilians indiscriminately. Shinra is the one protecting people in Crisis Core. Hollander led the experiments on Genesis, and he's currently on Genesis' side. Why is it hard to believe Sephiroth or Zack would stick with Shinra in this crisis instead of walking and thus letting Genesis burn cities to the ground for his revenge?

To be fair that's at the beginning. Sephiroth and Zack do begin to find out about the dark side of ShinRa and do you truly believe Sephiroth wasn't aware of the dark side of ShinRa before Genesis left? Look at his attitude towards Hojo for example.
I truly believe Sephiroth knew more about ShinRa than he let on. He just chose to ignore it as it was all he knew. Not for one second do I buy that he thought ShinRa were a good, moral, ethical company.
And he could've left it didn't mean he had to join Genesis (who was morally corrupt as well) he could've left ShinRa and carved his own path. Whether that be fighting against or ShinRa or opening a shop that sold hair products

How would Sephiroth even know what moral and ethical meant? Angeal seems to have been raised in a home where old-fashioned honour morality meant everything*, but from whom would the child Sephiroth have learnt these things?

* And that backfired on him because he felt honour-bound to Shinra.

Zack obviously has some clear notions about ethics: while he fights against Wutai when they pose a threat to peace and safety (or at least, it seems to Zack that they do), he also thinks they are fighting for a respectable cause and doesn't feel comfortable killing them because of that. He will avoid killing them if he can. He is also willing to donate money to the cause of Wutai's recovery. This seems to be rather like the USA's attitude to Japan or Germany (if we can separate Germany from Nazis) after the war.

 

[Harley Quinn]

I agree that his notions would've been clouded due to his upbringing. But I'm pretty sure he knew between right and wrong and finding out about Hollander's experiments on people and turning them into monsters and he knew before Hollander left that Hollander would've been being funded by ShinRa.
I'm not saying Sephiroth had a true understating or morality or ethics because of his upbringing but he didn't have a complete lack of understanding of it.

 

[Clement Rage]

Much as I love Sephy, I think he's being overestimated here.

Sephiroth is not equal to entire armies, he can be severely impeded by a backstab from a random MP. He'll need to sleep at some point. It would be a bad move for Shinra to go after him, but when have Shinra ever done the sensible thing? They could just grind him down like Zack, if they were willing to lose enough soldiers and machines, and could pin him to one location. Pre Jenova, he doesn't have the phasing through matter/flying/teleportation abilities, which would make it easier. Genesis, his nearest equivalent, had an army of super loyal deserted SOLDIER at his back and still couldn't really do much damage to Shinra, even with Sephy mostly not intervening.

Re the Tsviets, Azul and Shelke are toast, Nero wouldn't be a match in physical ability, but his swirly black stuff seems to be nearly unbeatable, and you don't stop it even by killing him. Rosso could survive Cloud, so might be able to put some fight.

Huge emphasis is put on how crazy powerful Weiss is, he's kept chained up. I would still give a match up to Sephy, but I think it could be a close fight.

Imagine all the super fans swarming to rally around him, ShinRa would be over in a day

If all the One Direction fans decided to unite against the world governments, they'd cause a serious problems, but I'd still give the military the edge in a fight.

 

[Harley Quinn]

Much as I love Sephy, I think he's being overestimated here.

Sephiroth is not equal to entire armies, he can be severely impeded by a backstab from a random MP. He'll need to sleep at some point. It would be a bad move for Shinra to go after him, but when have Shinra ever done the sensible thing? They could just grind him down like Zack, if they were willing to lose enough soldiers and machines, and could pin him to one location. Pre Jenova, he doesn't have the phasing through matter/flying/teleportation abilities, which would make it easier. Genesis, his nearest equivalent, had an army of super loyal deserted SOLDIER at his back and still couldn't really do much damage to Shinra, even with Sephy mostly not intervening.

Re the Tsviets, Azul and Shelke are toast, Nero wouldn't be a match in physical ability, but his swirly black stuff seems to be nearly unbeatable, and you don't stop it even by killing him. Rosso could survive Cloud, so might be able to put some fight.

Huge emphasis is put on how crazy powerful Weiss is, he's kept chained up. I would still give a match up to Sephy, but I think it could be a close fight.

Imagine all the super fans swarming to rally around him, ShinRa would be over in a day

If all the One Direction fans decided to unite against the world governments, they'd cause a serious problems, but I'd still give the military the edge in a fight.

Crazy Sephiroth even with all his abilities I would give it to him then as he's far too sure of himself which makes him become dumb and leaves him open. Sane Sephiroth is far more tactful and seems he'd take the situation far more serious than crazy Sephiroth.

I do think if the roles were reversed and it was Sephiroth who fought the MPs and Zack I genuinely think he'd of won. Would he have been hurt? Maybe *shrugs* but I always thought that even before powering up immensely that he was incredibly hard to damage and was highly regenerative. (Even though hurt by Cloud in the reactor he still managed to walk. God only knows how)

But maybe I'm overestimating him.

And god I hate one direction

 

[Clement Rage]

I have nothing against one direction or their fans per se, but they wouldn't be the first people I'd expect to be behind a violent insurrection. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

All part of their master plan.

"You don't know you're gullibeautiful/
That's what makes you gullibeautiful"

 

[Tashasaurous]

If all the One Direction fans decided to unite against the world governments, they'd cause a serious problems, but I'd still give the military the edge in a fight.

Crazy Sephiroth even with all his abilities I would give it to him then as he's far too sure of himself which makes him become dumb and leaves him open. Sane Sephiroth is far more tactful and seems he'd take the situation far more serious than crazy Sephiroth.

I do think if the roles were reversed and it was Sephiroth who fought the MPs and Zack I genuinely think he'd of won. Would he have been hurt? Maybe *shrugs* but I always thought that even before powering up immensely that he was incredibly hard to damage and was highly regenerative. (Even though hurt by Cloud in the reactor he still managed to walk. God only knows how)

But maybe I'm overestimating him.

And god I hate one direction

He was mutated with Jenova cells when Sephiroth was still just inside the womb of Lucrecia-his real mother. Since Jenova is extremely hard to kill since she is an alien, he's a hybrid.

And I like One Direction and I like their songs. Still have one of their CD tracks I got for my birthday...I think it was 2013. Can't remember.

 

[Harley Quinn]

He was mutated with Jenova cells when Sephiroth was still just inside the womb of Lucrecia-his real mother. Since Jenova is extremely hard to kill since she is an alien, he's a hybrid.

And I like One Direction and I like their songs. Still have one of their CD tracks I got for my birthday...I think it was 2013. Can't remember.
[/QUOTE]


Yeah I obviously know that the J-cells made him super powerful but we were discussing just how powerful he is. I do feel Sephiroth is sometimes overestimated. But then the whole being stabbed in the back by Cloud and still surviving makes me think that the J-cells have highly regenerative abilities.

And I can't stand one direction that music makes my ears bleed but each to their own

 

[Tashasaurous]

Yeah I obviously know that the J-cells made him super powerful but we were discussing just how powerful he is. I do feel Sephiroth is sometimes overestimated. But then the whole being stabbed in the back by Cloud and still surviving makes me think that the J-cells have highly regenerative abilities.

That's why I called him a Hybrid, because as you said, J-Cells have highly regenerative abilities and despite being rendered into small pieces of her head, Jenova was horrifyingly still alive because she can heal up and still be alive, and her cells are more alive than any other species in the world.

And I can't stand one direction that music makes my ears bleed but each to their own

Yeah, each to their own. The music I can't stand are classics from before the 1990's, and I can't stand classic-like musicals; La La Land is a good example.

 

[Clement Rage]

All part of their master plan.

"You don't know you're gullibeautiful/
That's what makes you gullibeautiful"

Aaaand now I've been humming this all day.

 

[Kieron_ODuibhir]

I bet Shinra would have let Sephiroth go if he'd just walked away, without the Genesis thing to make them jumpy. Called it a sabbatical and left him alone to embroider in peace until they really needed him for something. He's kind of a crown jewel of their public relations, they'd want to keep using him if possible.

I...don't agree at all about the difference between Crisis Core and the Bourne series. It's not untrue that Japan has overall a more communalist ethos than the US and your job tends to be even more in charge of your life, but this has resulted in a lot of escape-from-the-corporate-shackles fiction. Even Crisis Core is about this, in a way; it costs Sephiroth and Cloud the better part of their selves and Angeal and Zack their lives and much of their capacity for faith, but they do get out. The price of freedom shouldn't be so high, but it is.

The difference isn't east versus west, it's genre. Crisis Core is a somewhat actiony game and there are some vicarious power trips in there, even (especially?) in the bit at the end where Zack kills all comers trying to drag him back until he can't anymore, but in narrative terms it's a tragedy. It was never about winning.

 

[Torrie]

*throws another phoenix down... wooosh*

Can we talk about Angeal? I struggle with understanding his motives.

So we know that Angeal deserts Shinra in order to try to change Genesis's mind. According to his FF wiki page, two months later Zack sees him in Banora and four more months later within Sector 5 Plate. And during this sequence, Angeal shows signs of going completely nuts. Did Genesis brainwash him? Am I supposed to think that Angeal, Genesis, and Hollander were hanging out together for half a year? Is he going to revenge Shinra for having conceived the info from him and/or being far from his ideas of honour? Or revenge the humanity for being hard on monsters?

I can't wrap my mind around the fact that such a strong character breaks down only because he finds out about his origins. Or is it the wing that he's ashamed of? How come it had never shown up before? This thread offered some explanation, but still... Or does he not know how to control his "copying" ability and therefore is afraid of it?

Ugh, too many questions. I feel as if a dumbapple has hit me on the head.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

So... Angeal is a character that makes the most sense if you assume he's a samurai character in a historical Japanasese anime. His honor is everything to him. Anything that messes with his honor/moral code is majorly going to mess with his self-image of himself; that's how important his honor is to him.

So finding out his origins kinda shatters Angeal's sense of self and his sense of honor in one fell swoop. He essentially finds out his mom was lying to him his whole life, the father who gave him his sense of morality is not his actual birth-dad (Hollander is) and, most importantly, he finds out the organization he was working for has no honor what-so-ever. And he's now got inhuman features in a world with a lot of literal monsters. So Angeal starts seeing himself as having no honor since his sense of self is so connected to all of those things.

He goes into a tailspin since Angeal thinks he himself has no honor and that's when things get really... dicey for him. Once he's made the decision that he has no honor, Angeal consciously decides that means the only thing he can really be is a villain. The world views Angeal as a villain and so that is what he thinks he now has to be because he can't be a hero without honor (in his eyes). The only thing is, he doesn't like being one. In fact, he hates it. However, he can't think of a way to get his honor back. Both because he now looks like a monster and because Shinra isn't honorable either. So he instead gets the most honerable person he can think of, Zack, to kill him. Even if Zack doesn't want to.

Making all of this worse is that degradation does effect a person's mental faculties. So the more degradation they have, the worse their reasoning ability and impulse control is. So by the end, Angeal probably is more than a bit insane in a very real sense. His body is breaking down on him, and that includes his brain...

Angeal is... probably the hardest character in CC to really get I think. At least from a Weastern mindset. Most Weastern characters don't really have a sense of honor that is a core part of their character the way Eastern characters can have. Genesis and Sephiroth are easier to understand, even if I don't agree with what they end up doing. Sephiroth has a... really messed-up childhood, so him going ballistic over it at least makes sense. Genesis cares more about fixing his degradation and revenging himself against Shinra than his personal honor. Both Genesis' and Sephiroth's sense of who they are aren't linked to some abstract sense of morals really. Instead, their view of right/wrong is linked to what they think is right/wrong. Angeal's entire sense of self is linked to his sense of morals... and those morals are based on a foundation that can't hold up to the situation Angeal is in over the course of CC.

It's worth noting that out of the three 1st Class SOLDIERs, Angeal is the least ambitious and has the most nebulous goals. Angeal never wanted to be a hero. In fact, it's worth pointing out he might never had gone into SOLDIER in the first place if Genesis, his best friend, hadn't wanted to be a hero in SOLDIER so badly. He's easily the least self-serving of the three and has the most morals, but he lacks the drive to push through when things get tough. Genesis has the most obvious goal; he wants to be a hero and even when degradation is driving him crazy, he still wants to be that. It's why he wants his degradation to be cured so badly. Sephiroth meanwhile is already a hero and he's never not known what it is to not be pushed to be the best. He also is... really driven over the course of CC to find out why Genesis and Angeal are doing what they do. He's not so much mad at them as he is really concerned about them because they're his two best friends in the world. Zack also wants to be a hero too, so he's driven to try to save the people who are important to him. In contrast, Angeal doesn't really want anything that badly. He is good at teaching people and connecting with them and is called the "Heart of SOLDIER" for a reason. But he doesn't really want anything for himself the way everyone else in the CC cast does.

I'd say Angeal is mostly a contrast to Sephiroth who never really wanted to be a hero either, but had that the position forced on him. Both of their character arcs deal with them finding out their origins were a lie and having to deal with that foundational part of themselves turning out to be false. Sephiroth ends up making a new foundation for himself based on what his origins actually are, because he wasn't that attached to his fake origins anyway for obvious reasons (his childhood sucked, so his new mom will probably be a step up from that). Angeal doesn't do that though, in part because his "fake" origins really were good. It seems he had a good relationship with his mom and his step-dad and they are where he got his sense of honor from in the first place. However, there's nothing else to base his sense of honor on either (from his perspective). So he has to face the reality of not having his honor and he mentally can't do that. So he ends up killing himself instead of facing that reality.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Good questions. I don't think we have answers.

To be precise, it's probably more accurate to say that Angeal goes absent without leave than that he deserts Shinra. I don't think he has much love for the Shinra Board of Directors, but I'd be surprised if he didn't still feel a strong sense of duty and love towards the SOLDIER cadets who were in his care. Unlike Genesis, Angeal puts others before himself. If Angeal had the same personality as Genesis, they would not still be friends as adults, despite having grown up together.

If I were to guess, I would say that his copying and merging abilities disgust him. Whatever other people may think of him, he sees himself as a monster, and he doesn't want to live like that. Maybe he's afraid of being used? Maybe he's afraid of losing control of himself and becoming truly a monster?

Why do you say he shows signs of going completely nuts? He seems perfectly sane to me. He's probably a rather rigid, black and white thinker, though.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I really want to like Angeal, but I'd settle for understanding him. @Obsidian Fire has, in the past, come as close as anyone to getting me there, but I've still never quite managed it.

Take this, for instance:

Angeal is... probably the hardest character in CC to really get I think. At least from a Weastern mindset. Most Weastern characters don't really have a sense of honor that is a core part of their character the way Eastern characters can have.

I don't think this is the problem. See, Zuko in ATLA has a sense of honor that is the core of his character as well -- but he's also very popular, and pretty much everyone can understand that he thought his honor was supposed to come from bringing pride to his father even when his heart told him he needed to go against that.

Zuko takes a while to get his crap together, but he gets there, and his struggle to do so is understandable even if he takes longer than he should have. There's still a logic to it when he's dishonoring himself because he's ultimately still basing his assessment of whether he qualifies as honorable on the results of his own actions.

Angeal, on the other hand, doesn't do this. He completely separates a sense of honor from his own choices and actions, placing all of it in circumstances outside himself, and even outside the present or future moment.

He has darn near the most petulant and personal responsibility avoidant mindset of any FF character.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Maybe we could settle for saying he's not very well written?
I often wonder whether the writers of CC intended for Zack to seem as dumb as a brick.

 

[Torrie]

Both Genesis' and Sephiroth's sense of who they are aren't linked to some abstract sense of morals really. Instead, their view of right/wrong is linked to what they think is right/wrong. Angeal's entire sense of self is linked to his sense of morals... and those morals are based on a foundation that can't hold up to the situation Angeal is in over the course of CC.

I would swear I could hear your heavy sigh before you started this essay But thanks so much for spending time on detailed explanations! So much seems clearer now. I only don't know if it was my own mindset which prevented me from putting all of that into a bigger picture during the gameplay, or if it's the game's way of storytelling which leaves much to be desired.

To be precise, it's probably more accurate to say that Angeal goes absent without leave than that he deserts Shinra. I don't think he has much love for the Shinra Board of Directors, but I'd be surprised if he didn't still feel a strong sense of duty and love towards the SOLDIER cadets who were in his care.

Good point. It reminded me of the scene in Sector 5 slums when he informs Zack about Modeoheim, and the latter asks: "Are you actually... working?", to which Angeal replies, "I'm still SOLDIER at heart, I suppose."

Why do you say he shows signs of going completely nuts? He seems perfectly sane to me. He's probably a rather rigid, black and white thinker, though.

Well, he seems crazy enough from Zack's perspective. I imagine his inner comments firing like "where's my dear mentor? - whoa, you're still around! let's go home! - what on earth are you talking about? revenge? world domination? you alright, dude?!"

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

That's because Zack is too simple to understand sarcasm.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I will say this... the English VA work on CC is... really bad for both Angeal and Genesis. The way the lines are delivered doesn't fit the content of the lines. And so both Angeal and Genesis sound like neither of them are thinking about what they are really saying. Both of them sound like they are going crazy and just saying stuff to say stuff. I really got the feeling that neither Angeal nor Genesis' English VAs understood the character arcs their characters had and as a result didn't really know how to do their lines. So they kinda defaulted to "person finds out they were the product of a mad science experiment and went crazy afterwords".

The Japanese VA work on CC is... a lot better and there's a bigger range of vocal nuance across pretty much... everyone... Angeal and Genesis' VA deliveries are the most improved though. They both come across as less crazy and more desperate. I've noticed a lot of people have a hard time paying attention to what both Angeal and Genesis actually say in contrast to how they say things. So they assume that they're both very angry (which, fair, they are) and are not really thinking about what they are doing. Because that is how they sound in English for the vast majority of the game.

Zuko in ATLA has a sense of honor that is the core of his character as well -- but he's also very popular, and pretty much everyone can understand that he thought his honor was supposed to come from bringing pride to his father even when his heart told him he needed to go against that.

Angeal, on the other hand, doesn't do this. He completely separates a sense of honor from his own choices and actions, placing all of it in circumstances outside himself, and even outside the present or future moment.

He has darn near the most petulant and responsibility avoidant mindset of any FF character.

Zuko is different because he is super driven as a character. He's always got goals and he's always ready to do whatever he needs to do to see those goals through. Weather that's capturing the Avatar or ending the war. Keeping his honor is important to him, but he's way more flexible about "what is honorable (and who defines that)" than Angeal is. So while Zuko starts out with thinking his honor is "do what his dad wants" at the start, it's changed to "get the Fire Nation out of a dishonorable war" by the end.

Angeal is fundamentally not a leader. He is a follower. Whether that is his dad telling him "use brings about wear and rust" or Shinra making SOLDIER out to be an "honorable" thing to do. His sense of "who he is" can always be traced back to someone/thing outside of himself. He has no backbone. Even Angeal teaching Zack stuff sounds a lot like Angeal is repeating something someone else did for Angeal (probably his dad). Problem with people who are primarily followers is that they need someone to follow. And Angeal lost nearly all his leaders in one fell swoop.

Which... could have been really good for Angeal if he'd taken the opportunity to figure out who he was as a person. But he doesn't. He's mainly copying Genesis who at the very least has a stronger sense of self than Angeal has. Only, Angeal doesn't really like what or how Genesis is doing things. And for good reasons at that! But his reaction is still not to go do something different. It's to give up on himself.

Angeal is just... a character that likes fitting into the role they see themselves filling. And once that role is gone, they don't know what to do. Angeal is probably really lucky that he grew up around people who had a sense of honor and morals. That... probably kept him from ending up in a worse place than SOLDIER...

I would swear I could hear your heavy sigh before you started this essay But thanks so much for spending time on detailed explanations! So much seems clearer now. I only don't know if it was my own mindset which prevented me from putting all of that into a bigger picture during the gameplay, or if it's the game's way of storytelling which leaves much to be desired.

I actually really like discussing the character dynamics of CC. I just don't get much chance to do it nowadays.

If you want to see a similar kind of story (person finds out the organization they're working for lied to them and now their body has stuff wrong with it as a result, so they track down the scientist responsible to try to fix themselves) but from a Western mindset, go check out "The Bourne Legacy". It's has some eerie similarities to CC.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Once you examine Angeal's breakdown and self destructive spiral under the lens of a specimen of the Jenova Project, it makes sense.

I don't think it's a coincidence Sephiroth and Genesis both act out in violent, self destructive and harmful ways upon realizing the nature of their birth. There's something intrinsically destructive and dangerous within the spawn of Jenova. Jenova has an instinct to destroy and I think it's pretty obvious that unique madness gets passed on in various ways to those related to her.

Angeal, Genesis and Sephiroth all sever ties with their previous lives and humanity upon realizing the nature of their creation. They just do so to varying degrees.

 

[Cat on Mars]

I don't think it's a coincidence Sephiroth and Genesis both act out in violent, self destructive and harmful ways upon realizing the nature of their birth. There's something intrinsically destructive and dangerous within the spawn of Jenova. Jenova has an instinct to destroy and I think it's pretty obvious that unique madness gets passed on in various ways to those related to her.

This has always intrigued me. If it's instinctive, why they act on it just when they learn about Jenova?
It's a "I don't give a stuff 'cause I'm not going to be around much longer" thing?

 

[Makoeyes987]

I think it's an ego shock that creates an opening for Jenova's destructive and violent tendencies to take control. Existential grief resonates with the Jenova in them and opens them up to rejecting their previous lives.

Each of those SOLDIERs reject a part of themselves while embracing the monster within them. Sephiroth is the most extreme, while Angeal struggles with the despair and "fog" within his mind. The fact Angeal admits to Zack that he feels as if he's "mired in a fog" and sometimes unable to think clearly illustrates there's something inside him trying to tug him onto a path of destruction.