Shinra executing Barret/Tifa=Justified? (kinda)

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Okay, but I'd approach it from a different angle: under the circumstances, was Rufus justified in his decision to execute two people in an attempt to keep the rest of the population calm, prevent mass panic, and probably save more lives?

Your approach is basically asking whether capital punishment is ever justified. My approach is asing whether it is morally acceptable to sacrifice one person (or a few) so that many will live, and if so, who has the right to choose the person to be sacrificed. (let's not confuse the issue here by arguing about whether or not Rufus's approach would have saved any lives; we don't know whether it did or not. The asumption that it did, or would, is implicit in the question.)

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Just because she recruited Cloud does not mean she's responsible for what he does in her absence. That would be like blaming an army recruiter for a soldier's war crimes. It's unrealistic and unfair.

That's a terrible analogy. A more accurate one would be "Is whoever recruited the 9/11 hijackers and prepared them for their terrorist attacks at all culpable for said attacks?" The answer is pretty obviously "yes."

What you're talking about is the military -- e.g. "Are Heidegger and Scarlet responsible for a soldier who decided to execute enemies who had already surrendered?" Maybe even "Is Heidegger responsible for crushing Sector 7 because one of his subordinates carried out an order that came down from higher in the chain of command?"

We're not talking about that. We're talking about a small terrorist cell opposing the established, organized, sanctioned military and seeking to topple the status quo.

This isn't a huge organization where the question of who's ultimately at fault is difficult to answer. Each person in the group is there by choice and knows what they're involved with.

So, a comment like this from you --

Anyway, I think we're getting off topic. The original question was whether Barret and Tifa's attempted execution was justified or not. I repeat my original answer.

Barret = perhaps since he was involved in the attack that killed all those innocent people.

Tifa = No because she had no involvement in said innocent deaths.

-- doesn't make any sense. Tifa was involved, just as much as whoever recruited the 9/11 hijackers for that purpose was involved.

She doesn't pretend otherwise, so why are you? She says "we." She claims a role in the plan. She didn't object to further bombings after the first one killed civilians. She even goes along and personally assists in killing Shin-Ra personnel as part of the next bombing, which she had no reason to believe wouldn't result in comparable collateral damage.

Tifa's a terrorist, she's as much responsible for AVALANCHE's victims as anyone else, and she knows it. Simple as that.

In defense of AVALANCHE, (Barret's group anyway.)I wouldn't go as far as to say their methods are as bad as Shinra.

Shin-Ra
- Bombed unsuspecting people of Kalm
- Bombed unsuspecting people of Corel
- Dropped the plate on unsuspecting people of Sector 7

Barret's group
- Bombed unsuspecting people of Sector 1 (and possibly Sector 5)



If there wasn't meant to be a similarity at work, the narrative wouldn't go out of its way to enforce the notion to us that there is one.

After all, I'm not completely against their methods. (Personally I think they just had the wrong targets. They should have targeted the execs instead of the reactors.) At least they don't go around slaughtering entire towns, kidnapping and conscripting random people, or performing all manner of twisted experiments on said random people. Oh and let's not forget Deepground (FF7's Auschwitz, Godwin's Law be damned) . Compared to Shinra, they're saints.

I don't think anyone would disagree that Shin-Ra's executives were the scum of their planet. That isn't the question, though. The question is "Was Tifa at all culpable for deaths that resulted from a plan she assisted with and which she personally approved of?" Even if she only offered aid and succor to the participants without being an active participant -- which she was -- she would still be culpable.

Also, last I checked, a power outage didn't warrant getting tossed in a gas chamber.

Depends on what happened as a result. Automobile accidents? Life support machinery cease functioning? Lights go out in the middle of a surgical procedure? Yeah, that would be murder.

 

[BlackSwordMeister]

Truthfully, I don't think that there is any one definite answer to that question. The best answer I can come up with is that it depends on the circumstances.

lol wut.

So why are you just defending Tifa and not Barret/the rest of Avalanche?

Anyway reading this bringing in the Western we were right mentality/etc I think this is starting to become a case of not being able to see the trees for the forest (or was that the other way around)?

I'm pretty sure a true good man would not go on about how necessary or right something was, I would think there are people on all sides of the wars who have regrets. Whether Pearl Harbor or those villages in Japan I think people involved would have nightmares and regrets for a long time, possibly carrying them with them until the day they died/die. Same with these sort of situations in general really for some people.

Good men have the capacity to regret having to make the hard decisions.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

As long as we're talking about this, from Rufus's perspective, why wouldn't he see Tifa and Barret as the same? If she doesn't even make a distinction in blame, why would he ask, "Well, did she personally carry out that first bombing?" Is he going to say, "I mean, I know she was there for the second one and all, but this is a distinction worth taking note of!"?

For that matter, we don't know that Wedge ever even killed anyone. He didn't build the bomb like Jessie. He wasn't shown taking out any Shin-Ra personnel like she and Biggs. He didn't plant any bombs -- Cloud and Barret did that. He didn't even go directly inside any reactors. Is he less culpable than Barret or Biggs, despite still assisting in the plans?

If he's no less to blame -- and he isn't -- then how can be the woman who provided her home/business as a base for the plans to be made, who recruited an agent instrumental in the plans' success, who knew every detail of the plan, who was ready to provide shelter for the field agents from the first mission when they returned, and who participated in the next field mission?

I mean, really now, come on.

 

[jazzflower92]

As long as we're talking about this, from Rufus's perspective, why wouldn't he see Tifa and Barret as the same? If she doesn't even make a distinction in blame, why would he ask, "Well, did she personally carry out that first bombing?" Is he going to say, "I mean, I know she was there for the second one and all, but this is a distinction worth taking note of!"?

For that matter, we don't know that Wedge ever even killed anyone. He didn't build the bomb like Jessie. He wasn't shown taking out any Shin-Ra personnel like she and Biggs. He didn't plant any bombs -- Cloud and Barret did that. He didn't even go directly inside any reactors. Is he less culpable than Barret or Biggs, despite still assisting in the plans?

If he's no less to blame -- and he isn't -- then how can be the woman who provided her home/business as a base for the plans to be made, who recruited an agent instrumental in the plans' success, who knew every detail of the plan, who was ready to provide shelter for the field agents from the first mission when they returned, and who participated in the next field mission?

I mean, really now, come on.

Although that also kind of makes Rufus a bit of a hypocrite since he himself helped the first Avalanche in order to oust his father.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

^^Given how old he was when he supported the first AVALANCHE and how old Rufus is in the OG, there's been plenty of time for him to learn from his mistakes. Not to mention that when he first gets on the scene in BC, he thinks the Turks are an annoyance while the last thing he does in BC is to help the Turks fake the death of their boss and gets Heidegger and Scarlet to re-hire the Turks and not execute them. He's had a massive perspective change.

Actually, Rufus wanting to execute AVALANCHE after being AVALANCHE's financial backer makes a lot of sense. He of all people in Shin-Ra probably has the best idea about what the former AVALANCHE's plans were and now that he's the President of Shin-Ra doesn't want any of that to now happen.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Although that also kind of makes Rufus a bit of a hypocrite since he himself helped the first Avalanche in order to oust his father.

I don't think anyone is claiming that Rufus isn't a hypocrite, not even me, and I'm a Rufus apologist. Nor does Rufus deny that he has a lot to atone for. Unless he was just trying to manipulate Cloud with a fake display of remorse. I just think people don't sufficiently appreciate the fact that Rufus was 24 years old and had an entire planet to run. He'd been President of Shinra Inc for all of about three weeks when Sephiroth summoned Meteor. He was trying to keep the people calm and trying to solve the Meteor Crisis. I do think he needs to be given a little bit of credit for trying. Maybe his methods weren't ones that Mother Theresa would endorse, but as Napoleon said, if you want to make an omelette, you have to break eggs. Tifa and Barret were Rufus's eggs. So really, asking if he was justified is qualitatively (if not quantitively) the same as asking if Truman was justified in his decision to drop the A-bomb on Hiroshima.

PS Rufus did come to regret his actions later, after the Geostigma Crisis, when he started hanging around the Seventh heaven bar more often, enjoying his new anonymity as the person who was NOT the leader of the WRO; as he got to know Tifa better, he learnt to appreciate her many good qualities, and after Cloud ran off to set himself up in a love nest with Vincent it wasn't long before Tifa and Rufus started falling for each other. Still, the execution story was not allowed to be forgotten; it formed the highlight of Reno's best man speech at the wedding. How everyone laughed - even Barret, a little. And so everything turned out for the best in the best of all possible worlds.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Okay, Tifa isn't as guilty as Barret. But she's guilty enough.

Unles youre arguing that only the execution of the most guilty person is justified?

 

[BlackSwordMeister]

All I'm saying is there's no need to execute her for making the wrong friends and what she did do doesn't warrant a death sentence.

 

[Roger]

She is, if anything, even more culpable than Reeve, who at least made a show of objecting to the Sector 7 plate drop (but was very easily silenced).

What? We don't SEE the planning of the sector 1 bombing. We have no idea what objections Tifa or anyone else might or might not have raised. We do know however know that the new AVALANCHE was about three days old when Cloud came along whilst Reeve had been with Shinra decades of burning villages down and making war.

 

[BlackSwordMeister]

Also I forgot to mention when I compared her to X, note how she at least tries to avoid unnecessary combat such as when Barret harasses a Shinra employee on the train or when she suggests taking the stairs into Shinra HQ rather than blasting through the front door.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

What? We don't SEE the planning of the sector 1 bombing. We have no idea what objections Tifa or anyone else might or might not have raised. We do know however know that the new AVALANCHE was about three days old when Cloud came along whilst Reeve had been with Shinra decades of burning villages down and making war.

All we have to go on is what she does on screen. And Tifa does not raise a single objection to the bombing campaign at any time on screen - at least, not while it's going on. IIRC, the first time the question of morality is raised is after they escape from the support pillar, when Barret asks if she thinks they - Avalanche - are to blame for Sector 7's destruction. To say "well, for all we know she might have been acting completely differently during the times that we don't see her" is - I don't know if there's even a word for it. As a line of argument it's just non-existent. She's a fictional character.

I think 'the new Avalanche' was quite a bit more than 3 days old.

Also I forgot to mention when I compared her to X, note how she at least tries to avoid unnecessary combat such as when Barret harasses a Shinra employee on the train or when she suggests taking the stairs into Shinra HQ rather than blasting through the front door.

Is this out of concern for the welfare of Shinra people, or because she doesn't them want to draw attention to themselves? If you are a party of three trying to get up to the top of a very heavily armed fortress it makes sense to try to sneak in. It doesn't mean you care whether or not the people in that tower live or die.

 

[BlackSwordMeister]

Speaking of the reactor bombings, when Cloud sends off the party to find their own reasons for fighting, Barret owns up to his actions. His exact quote:

"You're right... It sounds cool sayin' it's to save the planet. But I was the one who blew up that Mako reactor...... Lookin' back on it now, I can see that wasn't the right way to do things. I made a lot of friends and innocent bystanders suffer......"

Note that he specifically says reactor instead of reactors. That and his mentioning of friends and innocent bystanders suffering makes sense that he's talking about the No. 1 Reactor, implying that there were no innocent civilians killed in the second reactor attack.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I'd hate to see you defend Tifa in court, dude.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

MOPIL, I don't know where this ridiculous defense of Tifa comes from, but it's a defense she herself doesn't even make. You're being less honest about the character than she herself ultimately is.

The answer is "no" unless the recruiter is also the one giving orders to attack. Last I checked, Barret was the one calling the shots, not Tifa.

That's bull. Tifa is responsible for her own actions. Barret is not. She recruited a superbeing for the purpose of blowing up a reactor -- she alone is responsible for her own choices.

Scarlet wasn't around for the planning but in Heidegger:

1. Unless Heidegger ordered the execution, responsibility falls on the soldier alone
2. Heidegger is as responsible as Reno and Tseng are for Sector 7 because he specifically ordered them to destroy the pillar. Guilt would be shared between them

To slightly paraphrase you, "President Shinra was the one calling the shots, not Heidegger."

And I wasn't actually asking for you to respond to the questions about Heidegger and Scarlet. I was giving you examples of analogies that would better fit the military example you had used previously.

The fact that they're a smaller organization makes it easier to determine individual guilt or innocence.

Precisely my point. Each person there knows what they are there for and is responsible for their choices in being there and contributing to the group's goals.

Again, all she did was recruit Cloud. The rest of that first attack is Barret giving the order and Cloud choosing to carry out that order. Just as not every Shinra exec isn't guilty of the exact same atrocities, not everyone in AVALANCHE is guilty of the exact same crime.

By that logic, Tifa is more responsible than anyone save Barret. She provided the base. She provided resources. She even brought in additional manpower.

Neither in game nor the novellas says that she outright planned or helped plan the attack. Hell, we don't even know if she knew every detail right before the attack.

Oh, bullshit. She knew exactly what was going down. Don't even try it.

You want to talk about what the novellas say? Alright, let's take a look at Case of Tifa:

----
The Shinra Electric Power Company developed mako energy, and the world flourished because of it. The land was always bathed in light—but at the same time, the shadows turned a shade darker. The anti-Shinra group Avalanche worked to bring that darkness to the world's attention.
Mako is made by sucking away the life coursing through the planet.
Mako will lead the planet to ruin.
But their constant efforts were in vain. The world didn't change. Now that the world knew the blessings of mako, leaving it behind proved too difficult. Avalanche, hoping to change that, resorted to more extreme measures. Midgar, City of Mako, was home to many people, and so Avalanche blew up the mako reactor that produced the energy they consumed.
----

The reactor explosion wasn't a spur of the moment decision by a single individual. It was something the group as a whole planned when their initial efforts didn't change anything.

Let's read on further:

----
She had considered a small number of sacrifices unavoidable for the sake of a greater purpose. Any qualms she had were smothered by the self-absorption of knowing they were putting their own lives on the line.
----

From the outset, Tifa knew ordinary people were going to get caught in the crossfire. She chose to justify that to herself in various ways, though -- e.g. it was for a greater purpose and the members of AVALANCHE were willing to risk their own lives.

The novella doesn't stop there, however:

----
She hated Shinra and Sephiroth so much it hurt. Then she joined Avalanche. Yes. It started with my own personal grudge. The anti-Shinra, anti-mako slogans Avalanche adopted were the perfect way to mask her true motives. But the loss of life was too great, even when weighed against the planet they were trying to save. And if it was all for one person's revenge...
The guilt waited its turn deep in her heart.
----

Her justification for knowingly participating in activities that would lead to civilian deaths was a bullshit lie. She was lying to herself. She let other people die for her own vendetta. It's right there, plain to see.

And again, if the recruiters don't give the orders to attack, the recruiters aren't responsible for anything the recruit does.

You can't really believe that someone who recruits another for the purpose of carrying out destruction and murder has no claim to the blame when said destruction and murder gets carried out. That's absurd.

Also, said recruits could have walked away or refused to carry out an order.

Damn straight. Each person is responsible for their choices. Tifa's speak for themselves.

And then we have a novella to speak for them too.

Just saying "we" is a vague statement at best. That doesn't mean she's claiming responsibility for both bombings.

From FFVII:

----
Barret
Hey! What's gonna happen to Marlene!?

Cait Sith
Doncha worry none, Marlene's in a safe place. She's with Aeris' mama.
Barret!!
What was that scratching just now!?
As long as Marlene is safe, who cares what else happens, right?
I been itchin' to say this to ya fer a while now!
When ya blew the Midgar No. 1 up, how many folks d'ya think died?

Barret
...that was for the life of the planet. Ya gotta expect a few casualties.

Cait Sith
A few? Whaddya mean 'a few'? What may be a few to y'all is everythin' to them who died......
Protect the planet. Hah! Y'all sure sound good!
Ain't no one that'd go against ya. So ya think ya can do whatever y'all want?

Barret
I don't wanna hear that from no one in Shinra...

Cait Sith
......nuthin' I can do 'bout that...

Cloud
Stop it!

Tifa
Cait Sith...... Barret, he knows what he did.
What we did in Midgar can't be forgotten no matter what the reason.
----

Look at that closely: "What we did." They're talking about reactor no. 1.

Here's the line from the Japanese version if you need it: 私たちがミッドガルでやった事は、どんな理由があってもけして許されない……。

Tifa said "watashi-tachi" (私たち) -- that's "we."

She could be just claiming involvement for the second reactor attack and as I keep saying, there's no proof that anybody was killed then.

Oh, yes, because she should feel guilt amounting to self-loathing over blowing up what you claim was an empty building. Could you at least be consistent with your argument on this?

Again, I stress that there is nothing outright saying that she masterminded or helped to mastermind the first reactor bombing.

And, again, you are verifiably wrong. Tifa's own thoughts in Case of Tifa tell us she knew what was coming.

Next you're going to tell us that Tifa wasn't really a member of AVALANCHE, or that she just accidentally activated the lift down to her basement one day and discovered that they had built said basement without her knowledge and were using it as a base to plan terrorist activities, also without her knowledge.

As for Shinra personnel being killed, that's all a matter of gameplay. (L1 + R1 is there for a reason.) I've played through the Sector 5 mission more times than I can count and not once have I run into a human enemy inside or on the way to the reactor.

That depends on whether the Special Combatant enemy (a variation of the Grunt enemy encountered in the first reactor) is a human-type or machine. It's probably a human-type. They disappear in a solid state like the MP enemies instead of flying to pieces as they fade away like Sweepers and 1st Rays.

Compare also to the Mighty Grunts in the Shin-Ra Building. Their red armor flies off in an animation like when machine-type enemies are destroyed, but the personnel wearing that armor fade in a solid state when killed thereafter. If killed in a single powerful attack that depletes all of their HP while their red armor is still on, they fade in a solid state, red armor and all.

You'll also notice that the three Mighty Grunts encountered on the 59th floor of the Shin-Ra Building appear as human guards on the field map before shouting "Destroy the intruders!" and rushing into battle with Cloud, Tifa and Barret. Likewise, the four Mighty Grunts posted on the next floor appear as human guards on the field map.

Furthermore, the smaller suit of armor they all wear beneath their red armor is similar to that of the Grunt and Special Combatant enemies.

So, yeah, I'm calling it: there are human personnel that can be fought in the no. 5 reactor. You are correct, however, that this is an element of gameplay and may not necessarily reflect who is in the facility.

In any case, the no. 1 mako reactor is the more relevant matter.

I use the word "terrorist" very loosely, if at all. Terrorism isn't so much about the means of the attack, as it is about who's being targeted. Despite the civilian deaths, AVALANCHE wasn't out to just kill everyone in sight.

They are terrorists, carrying out large-scale sabotage and destruction for political purposes aimed at overthrowing the established order, and done with little to no consideration for collateral damage, up to and including deaths among the civilian population. They're terrorists.

However:

Barret's AVALANCHE:
Bombed Mako Reactor No. 1 - Civilian casualties
Bombed Mako Reactor No. 5 - No casualties mentioned or proven

Shinra
- Bombed unsuspecting people of Kalm (and either executed them or fed them to Hojo)
- Bombed unsuspecting people of Corel (not so much bombed as torched and massacred)
- Dropped the plate on unsuspecting people of Sector 7
- Feeding the Nibelheim survivors to Hojo
- Project Jenova
- Deepground

I never said that there weren't any similarities, but you have to account for differences as well.

If they were the same, AVALANCHE wouldn't be heroes. That doesn't change that they made some choices that made them more similar to Shin-Ra than they initially believed themselves to be.

You completely missed my point. Neither in the game nor in the novellas does she outright say that she planned or helped plan the attacks. Her offering aid and succor would be , at most, "Obstruction of Justice"

Though our real-world criminal offenses likely don't apply wholesale to FFVII's setting, obstruction of justice doesn't apply here, nor does perverting the course of justice. Tifa's actions would be charged as straight-up conspiracy to commit terrorism.

Headcanon at best. We don't know what happened or how long those power outages lasted. Plus one would think a city as advanced as Midgar would have backup power sources reserved in the event of a reactor malfunction.

I wasn't talking about within the fiction, as it didn't sound like you were ("... last I checked, a power outage didn't warrant getting tossed in a gas chamber"). But it would apply either way if it resulted in any of those things.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Case closed, I think. Good job, Tres.

 

[BlackSwordMeister]

MOPIL, I don't know where this ridiculous defense of Tifa comes from, but it's a defense she herself doesn't even make. You're being less honest about the character than she herself ultimately is.

Hey, I'm just calling it as I see it. I can't force you to agree with me."

MyOwnPathInLife wrote:
The answer is "no" unless the recruiter is also the one giving orders to attack. Last I checked, Barret was the one calling the shots, not Tifa.
That's bull. Tifa is responsible for her own actions. Barret is not. She recruited a superbeing for the purpose of blowing up a reactor -- she alone is responsible for her own choices.

Cloud is responsible for his own choices too. He made the choice to accompany Barret. He made the choice to set the bomb. She's not the one ordering Cloud around."

MOPIL wrote:
Scarlet wasn't around for the planning but in Heidegger:
MOPIL wrote:
1. Unless Heidegger ordered the execution, responsibility falls on the soldier alone
2. Heidegger is as responsible as Reno and Tseng are for Sector 7 because he specifically ordered them to destroy the pillar. Guilt would be shared between them

To slightly paraphrase you, "President Shinra was the one calling the shots, not Heidegger."

And I wasn't actually asking for you to respond to the questions about Heidegger and Scarlet. I was giving you examples of analogies that would better fit the military example you had used previously.

Unless they outrank the commanding officer or are the CO themselves, recruiters have no control over the orders said CO gives a recruit.



MOPIL wrote:
The fact that they're a smaller organization makes it easier to determine individual guilt or innocence.

Precisely my point. Each person there knows what they are there for and is responsible for their choices in being there and contributing to the group's goals.

That also proves my point in that it makes it easier to determine who did what. Just as we don't hold Reeve responsible for Sector 7, Tifa shouldn't be held responsible for Reactor No. 1

MOPIL wrote:
Again, all she did was recruit Cloud. The rest of that first attack is Barret giving the order and Cloud choosing to carry out that order. Just as not every Shinra exec isn't guilty of the exact same atrocities, not everyone in AVALANCHE is guilty of the exact same crime.

By that logic, Tifa is more responsible than anyone save Barret. She provided the base. She provided resources. She even brought in additional manpower.

Are you going to call every army recruiter a war criminal because of another soldier's war crime?


MOPIL wrote:
Neither in game nor the novellas says that she outright planned or helped plan the attack. Hell, we don't even know if she knew every detail right before the attack.

Oh, bullshit. She knew exactly what was going down. Don't even try it.

Knowing is one thing. Having the ability to stop it is an entirely different matter. Reeve knew that they were going to bomb Sector 7 yet we don't hold him responsible for it do we? How do we know Tifa could have stopped them? Tifa is a strong woman but this is Barret and Cloud we're talking about here? Plus we don't know how good Biggs, Wedge, or Jessie are in a fight either. She couldn't go to Shinra because :

A: She had no reason to trust them because of the Nibelheim incident
B: Considering the lengths that they went to cover up Nibelheim, death would have been the least of her worries.

You want to talk about what the novellas say? Alright, let's take a look at Case of Tifa:

----
The Shinra Electric Power Company developed mako energy, and the world flourished because of it. The land was always bathed in light—but at the same time, the shadows turned a shade darker. The anti-Shinra group Avalanche worked to bring that darkness to the world's attention.
Mako is made by sucking away the life coursing through the planet.
Mako will lead the planet to ruin.
But their constant efforts were in vain. The world didn't change. Now that the world knew the blessings of mako, leaving it behind proved too difficult. Avalanche, hoping to change that, resorted to more extreme measures. Midgar, City of Mako, was home to many people, and so Avalanche blew up the mako reactor that produced the energy they consumed.
----

The reactor explosion wasn't a spur of the moment decision by a single individual. It was something the group as a whole planned when their initial efforts didn't change anything.

Let's read on further:

----
She had considered a small number of sacrifices unavoidable for the sake of a greater purpose. Any qualms she had were smothered by the self-absorption of knowing they were putting their own lives on the line.

----

From the outset, Tifa knew ordinary people were going to get caught in the crossfire. She chose to justify that to herself in various ways, though -- e.g. it was for a greater purpose and the members of AVALANCHE were willing to risk their own lives.


No, she didn't know that innocent bystanders were going to be killed in the crossfire. None of them did. Note her exact words after Sector 7:

"Are you saying it's our fault. Because AVALANCHE was here? Innocent people lost their lives because of us?


By "sacrifices" she means her own life if need be as well as any soldiers Shinra would doubtless send her way. She's simply saying that she was willing to fight to the death if said soldiers came after her or her comrades.

The novella doesn't stop there, however:

----
She hated Shinra and Sephiroth so much it hurt. Then she joined Avalanche. Yes. It started with my own personal grudge. The anti-Shinra, anti-mako slogans Avalanche adopted were the perfect way to mask her true motives. But the loss of life was too great, even when weighed against the planet they were trying to save. And if it was all for one person's revenge...
The guilt waited its turn deep in her heart.

Her justification for knowingly participating in activities that would lead to civilian deaths was a bullshit lie. She was lying to herself. She let other people die for her own vendetta. It's right there, plain to see.

So she wanted revenge. Revenge is a common motivation for heroes.And I say again she had no intention of involving innocent bystanders in her battle against Shinra. Read what she says after Sector 7.

MOPIL wrote:
And again, if the recruiters don't give the orders to attack, the recruiters aren't responsible for anything the recruit does.

You can't really believe that someone who recruits another for the purpose of carrying out destruction and murder has no claim to the blame when said destruction and murder gets carried out. That's absurd.

Army recruiters expect recruits to go after soldiers, not innocent bystanders. No recruiter is responsible for a soldier becoming a war criminal.

MOPIL wrote:
Also, said recruits could have walked away or refused to carry out an order.

Damn straight. Each person is responsible for their choices. Tifa's speak for themselves.

And then we have a novella to speak for them too.

MOPIL wrote:
Just saying "we" is a vague statement at best. That doesn't mean she's claiming responsibility for both bombings.
From FFVII:

----
Barret
Hey! What's gonna happen to Marlene!?

Cait Sith
Doncha worry none, Marlene's in a safe place. She's with Aeris' mama.
Barret!!
What was that scratching just now!?
As long as Marlene is safe, who cares what else happens, right?
I been itchin' to say this to ya fer a while now!
When ya blew the Midgar No. 1 up, how many folks d'ya think died?

Barret
...that was for the life of the planet. Ya gotta expect a few casualties.

Cait Sith
A few? Whaddya mean 'a few'? What may be a few to y'all is everythin' to them who died......
Protect the planet. Hah! Y'all sure sound good!
Ain't no one that'd go against ya. So ya think ya can do whatever y'all want?

Barret
I don't wanna hear that from no one in Shinra...

Cait Sith
......nuthin' I can do 'bout that...

Cloud
Stop it!

Tifa
Cait Sith...... Barret, he knows what he did.
What we did in Midgar can't be forgotten no matter what the reason.
----

Look at that closely: "What we did." They're talking about reactor no. 1.

Here's the line from the Japanese version if you need it: 私たちがミッドガルでやった事は、どんな理由があってもけして許されない……。

Tifa said "watashi-tachi" (私た&#12385 -- that's "we."

Again, just saying "we" doesn't prove anything. She could be talking about both reactors and even then she's not claiming individual responsibility for the No. 1 attack. If Cait Sith talking about both reactors, don't you think he would have mentioned both reactors?

MOPIL wrote:
She could be just claiming involvement for the second reactor attack and as I keep saying, there's no proof that anybody was killed then.

Oh, yes, because she should feel guilt amounting to self-loathing over blowing up what you claim was an empty building. Could you at least be consistent with your argument on this?

She feels guilt and self loathing because she blames herself for Sector 7 and Midgar's destruction during Meteorfall. That's why she adopts Denzel.

MOPIL wrote:
Again, I stress that there is nothing outright saying that she masterminded or helped to mastermind the first reactor bombing.

And, again, you are verifiably wrong. Tifa's own thoughts in Case of Tifa tell us she knew what was coming.

I say again, nobody knew that the Reactor No. 1 attack was going to be the disaster that it turned out to be. The only reason that first bomb killed so many is because Jessie made the bomb too powerful.

Next you're going to tell us that Tifa wasn't really a member of AVALANCHE, or that she just accidentally activated the lift down to her basement one day and discovered that they had built said basement without her knowledge and were using it as a base to plan terrorist activities, also without her knowledge.

The bar wasn't even originally hers. In Crisis Core, there's an easter egg where a guy is planning to open up a bar and trying to determine a name. Guess what the official answer is. As for the basement, it could have been built in before she was given ownership and just converted into a base for AVALANCHE.

MOPIL wrote:
As for Shinra personnel being killed, that's all a matter of gameplay. (L1 + R1 is there for a reason.) I've played through the Sector 5 mission more times than I can count and not once have I run into a human enemy inside or on the way to the reactor.

That depends on whether the Special Combatant enemy (a variation of the Grunt enemy encountered in the first reactor) is a human-type or machine. It's probably a human-type. They disappear in a solid state like the MP enemies instead of flying to pieces as they fade away like Sweepers and 1st Rays.

Compare also to the Mighty Grunts in the Shin-Ra Building. Their red armor flies off in an animation like when machine-type enemies are destroyed, but the personnel wearing that armor fade in a solid state when killed thereafter. If killed in a single powerful attack that depletes all of their HP while their red armor is still on, they fade in a solid state, red armor and all.

You'll also notice that the three Mighty Grunts encountered on the 59th floor of the Shin-Ra Building appear as human guards on the field map before shouting "Destroy the intruders!" and rushing into battle with Cloud, Tifa and Barret. Likewise, the four Mighty Grunts posted on the next floor appear as human guards on the field map.

Furthermore, the smaller suit of armor they all wear beneath their red armor is similar to that of the Grunt and Special Combatant enemies.

So, yeah, I'm calling it: there are human personnel that can be fought in the no. 5 reactor. You are correct, however, that this is an element of gameplay and may not necessarily reflect who is in the facility.

Again L1+R1 is there for a reason.

In any case, the no. 1 mako reactor is the more relevant matter.

"

MOPIL wrote:
I use the word "terrorist" very loosely, if at all. Terrorism isn't so much about the means of the attack, as it is about who's being targeted. Despite the civilian deaths, AVALANCHE wasn't out to just kill everyone in sight.

They are terrorists, carrying out large-scale sabotage and destruction for political purposes aimed at overthrowing the established order, and done with little to no consideration for collateral damage, up to and including deaths among the civilian population. They're terrorists.

So are we terrorists for overthrowing Saddam Hussein. Were the resistance movement in Iraq terrorists for overthrowing him. Were the French Resistance terrorists for acts of sabotage against the German Occupation.


MOPIL wrote:
However:
Barret's AVALANCHE:
Bombed Mako Reactor No. 1 - Civilian casualties
Bombed Mako Reactor No. 5 - No casualties mentioned or proven

Shinra
- Bombed unsuspecting people of Kalm (and either executed them or fed them to Hojo)
- Bombed unsuspecting people of Corel (not so much bombed as torched and massacred)
- Dropped the plate on unsuspecting people of Sector 7
- Feeding the Nibelheim survivors to Hojo
- Project Jenova
- Deepground

I never said that there weren't any similarities, but you have to account for differences as well.
If they were the same, AVALANCHE wouldn't be heroes. That doesn't change that they made some choices that made them more similar to Shin-Ra than they initially believed themselves to be.

I say again, I never disputed the fact that there were similarities.

MOPIL wrote:
You completely missed my point. Neither in the game nor in the novellas does she outright say that she planned or helped plan the attacks. Her offering aid and succor would be , at most, "Obstruction of Justice"

Though our real-world criminal offenses likely don't apply wholesale to FFVII's setting, obstruction of justice doesn't apply here, nor does perverting the course of justice. Tifa's actions would be charged as straight-up conspiracy to commit terrorism.

Okay, I'll give you that, though I still say she doesn't deserve to be executed for that.

MOPIL wrote:
Headcanon at best. We don't know what happened or how long those power outages lasted. Plus one would think a city as advanced as Midgar would have backup power sources reserved in the event of a reactor malfunction.

I wasn't talking about within the fiction, as it didn't sound like you were ("... last I checked, a power outage didn't warrant getting tossed in a gas chamber"). But it would apply either way if it resulted in any of those things.

In our world, yes it would. However there's no mention in-game or the novellas that it did, is there. Besides, we don't know the structure of the upper-plate cities to be sure where each individual sector had a hospital or not.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

The bar wasn't even originally hers. In Crisis Core, there's an easter egg where a guy is planning to open up a bar and trying to determine a name. Guess what the official answer is. As for the basement, it could have been built in before she was given ownership and just converted into a base for AVALANCHE.

Oh my god.

**

Don't forget Tifa is also a woman who was prepared to do whatever it took to extract information from Don Corneo and who if Cloud is picked by Corneo will wipe out the group of men she was sent to be with, it's debatable whether the latter is canon but she has the capacity to do it. There is also the assault on Rocket Town and the Underground reactor with the loss of Shinra personnel , the two guys on the elevator, just normal guys, hoping for a date, talking it up to each other for courage, the Submarine crew, at least you get the chance to let the last live though a bad feeling is still left over the lift guys.

I'm trying to remember if Aerith and RedXIII were involved in the loss of lives of Shinra personnel, it's been a while, did we fight any on the Junon ship? I think they are culpable too to some extent, well I don't think anybody in the party is a complete innocent.

 

[BlackSwordMeister]

Maidenofwar says:
Oh my god.
**

Don't forget Tifa is also a woman who was prepared to do whatever it took to extract information from Don Corneo and who if Cloud is picked by Corneo will wipe out the group of men she was sent to be with, it's debatable whether the latter is canon but she has the capacity to do it. There is also the assault on Rocket Town and the Underground reactor with the loss of Shinra personnel , the two guys on the elevator, just normal guys, hoping for a date, talking it up to each other for courage, the Submarine crew, at least you get the chance to let the last live though a bad feeling is still left over the lift guys.

More likely she was going to wait until she got close to Corneo and then beat the information out of him. Besides I always assumed Barret and the others might have had a rescue plan in place. The Sector 7 attack just derailed that. If Aerith is chosen, you find the idiot she was fed to chained up when you go back to the mansion.


I'm trying to remember if Aerith and RedXIII were involved in the loss of lives of Shinra personnel, it's been a while, did we fight any on the Junon ship? I think they are culpable too to some extent, well I don't think anybody in the party is a complete innocent.

The Junon Ship? They snuck on after Cloud's little stunt at the parade. I thought they all snuck on and that Sephiroth (or Jenova) killed the troops serving on the ship.

 

[Octo]

IIRC, Barret told Tifa to steer clear of Corneo, but she went anyway of her own accord.

I've lost track of the conversation, but this is the new LTD!

 

[BlackSwordMeister]

IIRC, Barret told Tifa to steer clear of Corneo, but she went anyway of her own accord.

I've lost track of the conversation, but this is the new LTD!

I never said otherwise, but still.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

More likely she was going to wait until she got close to Corneo and then beat the information out of him. Besides I always assumed Barret and the others might have had a rescue plan in place. The Sector 7 attack just derailed that. If Aerith is chosen, you find the idiot she was fed to chained up when you go back to the mansion.

Sure ya didn't.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

IIRC, Barret told Tifa to steer clear of Corneo, but she went anyway of her own accord.

I've lost track of the conversation, but this is the new LTD!

I was just thinking that myself.

Hey, I'm just calling it as I see it. I can't force you to agree with me."

You can, however, make arguments that you can provide support for rather than just saying "Well, it could have been like this ..." and "We don't really know ..." -- even when it couldn't have been like that and we do really know.

Cloud is responsible for his own choices too. He made the choice to accompany Barret. He made the choice to set the bomb.

If anyone isn't entirely responsible for their actions in this matter, it's Cloud. He's the one who was messed up and, ironically, constructed a persona based in large part on impressing Tifa.

She recruited him to keep him close because she knew he was messed up in the head.

And enlisting him for a life-threatening mission to blow up a power plant was necessary to do that?

Unless they outrank the commanding officer or are the CO themselves, recruiters have no control over the orders said CO gives a recruit. Nobody joins the army intent to commit war crimes (except for psychopaths).

Could you please stop pretending that we're talking about a publically sanctioned military of large size that has been around since before most of the people serving in it? We're talking about pretty much the opposite of that.

Let me rephrase that. Being a smaller organization makes it easier to understand who is individually guilty of which action.

Yes. They're all individually guilty of contributing to the missions.

By that logic, Tifa is more responsible than anyone save Barret. She provided the base. She provided resources. She even brought in additional manpower.

Are you going to call every army recruiter a war criminal because of another soldier's war crime?

Again, we're talking about a small terrorist cell, not the godsdamn military.

Nice attempt at deflection, though. It didn't work. Why did you ignore the other lines in my statement?:

-"She provided the base."
-"She provided resources."

Knowing is one thing. Having the ability to stop it is an entirely different matter. Reeve knew that they were going to bomb Sector 7 yet we don't hold him responsible for Sector 7 do we?

He actually holds himself responsible, which kind of defeats your argument. Anyway, no, we don't blame Reeve, but it's bullshit to say that Tifa couldn't have stopped it -- if she actually wanted to.

She could have easily reported the plan to Shin-Ra if she actually wanted to stop it. We never see any indication that she had an objection.

No, she didn't know that innocent bystanders were going to be killed in the crossfire. None of them did. Note her exact words after Sector 7:

"Are you saying it's our fault. Because AVALANCHE was here? Innocent people lost their lives because of us?

She's talking about Sector 7 there. Read the novella again -- she knew people were going to die if they carried out their more desperate measures.

By "sacrifices" she means her own life if need be as well as any soldiers Shinra would doubtless send her way. She's simply saying that she was willing to fight to the death if said soldiers came after her or her comrades.

That's not what she is saying at all. She goes from thinking about the mistakes of her past while watching Meteor be defeated over Midgar -- walking through how mako had become so prevalent and how AVALANCHE had tried in vain to get people to turn away from it -- to how the group took more desperate measures.

She next goes over how the bomb that took out the reactor was more devastating than intended and how this led to Shin-Ra's own desperate response of dropping the plate on Sector 7. She then goes over she had known all along that there would be "necessary" sacrifices, but didn't have time to think about the real toll of it all while they raced to save the world from Sephiroth.

Coming back round to the present for a moment, she goes over how -- with the battles over -- she has time to reflect on what led her here, and she admits that her true motivation in working with AVALANCHE was revenge for Nibelheim and that she had sacrificed innocent people for her personal grudge.

Which brings her back round to the present again, where it's said that her guilt had been waiting for things to slow down so it could have its day in the sun.

Just read the pages yourself:

http://imgur.com/XBxK4K0.jpg
http://imgur.com/Ydwh2kK.jpg

So she wanted revenge. Revenge is a common motivation for heroes.

They don't usually knowingly let innocent people die for the sake of it, though. Which is why Tifa feels guilt.

Again, just saying "we" doesn't prove anything. She could be talking about both reactors and even then she's not claiming individual responsibility for the No. 1 attack.

Again, they're talking specifically reactor no. 1.

And who said anything about "individual responsibility"? No one claims individual responsibility for it, because none of them are individually responsible for the entire thing. They are all, however, responsible for their own actions in contributing to the explosion -- as we've been over at length.

Look, you're not getting around this. Tifa decided to sacrifice innocent people. It's there in black and white on the pages I just linked you to above.

It's also there in black and white on the pages of her 10th Anniversary Ultimania profile:

----
Filled with hatred for ShinRa, which had snatched her hometown away from her, she was once a member of the anti-ShinRa organization AVALANCHE led by Barret and immersed herself in their radical activities.
----

It says she immersed herself in their activities. That hardly sounds like some ignorant pawn sitting on the sidelines who doesn't know grapes from dingleberries.

----
Some lives being sacrificed in order to save the Planet was unavoidable — the Mako Reactor was blown up whilst having that thought in mind. However, after finding out that many lives were taken because of that, she was hit by regret.
----

Please read that over carefully again and again. However many times it takes for you to accept what's there. She participated in the bombing of the first reactor with the thought in mind that "some lives being sacrificed in order to save the planet was unavoidable." It just ended up being worse than she had expected.

And despite that regret, she didn't protest against planting another bomb. She even went on the next mission.

Let's also look at her Dengeki PS3 profile for Advent Children Complete:

----
As one of the core members of the anti-Shinra organization AVALANCHE, Tifa participated in various bombing missions.
----

"One of the core members." "Various bombing missions."

Paints a pretty clear picture if you're not trying to distort it from the outset, right?

By the way, while Dengeki PS3 is not a Square publication like the Ultimanias, the information in that issue's profiles is generally accepted as canon because of the issue being a special Advent Children Complete/FFXIII issue loaded with interviews from Tetsuya Nomura, Kazushige Nojima, Yoshinori Kitase and other key Square staff. And also because there's some canon information in there that was revealed by that issue before Advent Children Complete even came out (e.g. that Cloud had originally left home before Advent Children in order to find a cure for Denzel, but stayed gone when he failed to find it and contracted the condition himself).

So, let's review:
-Tifa immersed herself in AVALANCHE's activities
-Tifa was a core member of AVALANCHE
-Tifa was involved in more than one bombing mission
-Tifa accepted that some innocent people would have to die in order to blow up the first mako reactor
-Tifa recruited a figure instrumental in that first bombing mission's success
-Tifa provided a base for AVALANCHE where their plans were drafted, and to which the other members sought shelter after blowing the first reactor up
-Tifa participated in a second bombing mission after knowing there were civilian deaths from the first

Please, tell us again how Tifa is some naive twit who didn't know shit about what was going down and is in no way responsible for what did go down. Please tell us how "we don't even know if she knew every detail right before the attack," as though the mercenary from outside the group whom Barret didn't trust would have more information on the plan than a core member.

Please. I'm waiting.

The bar wasn't even originally hers. In Crisis Core, there's an easter egg where a guy is planning to open up a bar and trying to determine a name. Guess what the official answer is. As for the basement, it could have been built in before she was given ownership and just converted into a base for AVALANCHE.

Who cares who it originally belonged to or whether the basement was already there? It's her fucking home/restaurant and she made it AVALANCHE's base.

My house didn't originally belong to me, but if I let people plan terrorist acitvities there, I'm responsible for it, even if I don't participate like Tifa.

Again L1+R1 is there for a reason.

I'm pretty sure any resistance AVALANCHE encountered wouldn't have allowed them to press imaginary buttons and just walk away.

So are we terrorists for overthrowing Saddam Hussein. Were the resistance movement in Iraq terrorists for overthrowing him. Were the French Resistance terrorists for acts of sabotage against the German Occupation.

Depending on who you ask, yeah. "Terrorist" doesn't mean "evil," don't you know? It does, however, denote a specific type of activity.

And, again, we're not talking a sanctioned military, which you are hellbent on bringing into these analogies -- where it has no place.

Okay, I'll give you that, though I still say she doesn't deserve to be executed for that.

Bringing us back around to the question of "Why the hell would Rufus have any reason to believe she's not as guilty as Barret"? For that matter, how do you justify executing Barret as okay, yet Tifa gets a pass when she provided him a base, resources, manpower, support for the plan, etc.?

Because he stood there while Cloud set the bomb?

Why doesn't Jessie get a pass then? You said she doesn't -- so why? She provided resources (like Tifa) in the form of a bomb, but she didn't plant the fucking bomb, did she?

You're extremely selective (i.e. inconsistent) in who you say is innocent and who isn't.

Look, I love Tifa too. She's one of my top three favorite characters in all of Final Fantasy. But this is who she is: someone who made mistakes that got people killed, regretted those mistakes, and then tried to live her life in atonement for those mistakes.

That's Tifa. That's the character. Trying to make her someone other than that is not doing a service to the character. It's distorting who she really is.

 

[Octo]

Very funny. Now you're just making her out to be a slut.

He is?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

You should be a lawyer, Tres.

I hope it's now been established to everybody's satisfaction that Tifa has the blood of innocent people on her hands. As for Barret, no one has even tried to defend him. Both of them are guilty of being terrorists.

That said, is their execution justified? If Rufus is having them executed as a punishment, then it's only justified if you believe in capital punishment.

However (as I said before, but I maybe I'm the only person interested in this aspect of the question), Rufus's reasoning is much more pragmatic.

Rufus: Meteor has been summoned... Essentially, it's all but over now. So, there's no need for you now.No, maybe there is an important task for you...

(Heidegger enters behind Rufus.)

Heidegger: President! Preparations for the public execution are complete.

(Barret jumps)

Barret: Execution!? What're ya gonna get by executin' us?

Rufus: You are to be executed for causing this situation. People are ignorant. They'll feel better as long as someone is punished.

Thanks to Reeve, Rufus is well aware that Tifa and Barret did not cause the Meteor Crisis.He never claims that he is executing them as punishment for their terrorist activities; he openly admits that he is having them put to death for something he knows they didn't do, and he is doing it in order to make the panicking population feel better. I think it stands to reason that it will be easier for Shinra to throw all their resources into solving the Meteor Crisis if the people remain calm, but Rufus never states this as his reason so I can't really claim it's what he's thinking, although all his subsequent actions (collecting the large materia, fighting the weapons, breaking the energy seal on the Northern Cave) point to a determination to fix the problem.