Shinra executing Barret/Tifa=Justified? (kinda)

[Roger]

Whichever side he favors I don't see his motivation for hiding this truth from Rufus

 

[Ite]

Well it's more about his testimony being of any relevance in a case of "should we execute Tifa and Barret" type deal. Obviously, it is in Shinra's best interests to execute them, and Heidegger and the Turks wouldn't give up that kind of classified information, even to the new president. I thiiink Domino died during the Shinra HQ massacre, but in any case, Reeve telling Rufus that his father bombed Sector 7 would be like Elaine Chao telling George W. Bush that his father orchestrated the Gulf War.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I don't know who Eaine Chao is so I don't get that reference, so forgive me if I'm making a point the reference was supposed to make.... But anyway...

It's an interesting point to speculate on. If Rufus didn't know that his father had dropped the plate on Sector 7, would the Turks tell him, or wouldn't they? The Compilation clearly shows them working for Rufus's interests; the OG less so, although they never turn against him or abandon their duty (when on duty) until they think he's dead and Shinra a spent force. So would it be in their interests to tell him the truth about Sector 7? Would it be in Rufus' best interests to know? I'm not sure.

Anyway, scapegoats are always useful in a crisis, even if all they do is allay people's fears temporarily.

 

[Ite]

^Chao was a relatively liberal member of both Bush cabinets. I think she also ran United Way for a while. I just picked the most Reeve-like politician I could recall.

 

[CameoAmalthea]

I don't see why the Turks would keep it a secret from Rufus. Yes, it's classified information, but Rufus IS President and once the Old Man is dead the Turks work for him. If the whole compilation is taken into consideration, the Turks were pretty much loyal to Rufus more than anyone before President Shinra Sr died.

Why not tell him? Because it would upset him/they don't want him to feel like it's his fault? He's 25 years old, I doubt they'd coddle him.

Besides, Rufus has top level security clearance and is a gifted computer hacker. He probably would have looked into what was going on with Sector 7. I don't think his motive for killing Tifa and Barret was "I honestly think these are bad people"

It was "I honestly think these people are a security risk (see destroyed reactors) and killing them would be politically advantageous"

Maybe Rufus doesn't know and he has even more reason to see Cloud and Co as a dangerous enemy, but more likely he knows and it's like "My father was evil and these terrorists are dangerous misguided extremists, aren't things a mess"

 

[ForceStealer]

Rufus MIGHT not know. He didn't know everything after all, such as Deepground. But at the same time, I don't think he would care, and I don't think the Turks et. al. would be willfully hiding it from him. It just didn't come up.
At the end, like you said, I think his reasoning for executing them was exactly what he said it was. They've been a thorn in his side for long enough, and it will give the people something to focus on, and placate their anger.

Though the original question was whether the punishment itself was deserved, regardless of why Rufus was doing it, right?

 

[CameoAmalthea]

I think Deep Ground was super secret/nearly impossible to discover, even the President didn't know everything that was going on secret, whereas Sector 7 was standard level classified, but either way it wouldn't effect his calculus because with or without Sector 7 Rufus had reasons to do what he did.

The original question was "is this justified" and I think Rufus's reasons are important because they factor into the question.

Executing the terrorists ensures that Shinra looks strong/competitant therefor people are less likely to panic and revolt, and shows Shinra will deal with those who do. Keeping people from panicing, rioting, engaging in activity which get people killed and make it harder for Shinra to combat Sephiroth and Metior is worth the lives of two terrorists, even if they aren't guilty of the crime they're being executed for in an ends justifies the means analysis.

Whether something is justified is a different question of whether something is deserved.

 

[Roger]

Though the original question was whether the punishment itself was deserved, regardless of why Rufus was doing it, right?

Topic title specifies that this is about whether Shinra specifically is justified in executing AVALANCHE. Though that can refer to Rufus or the Electric Power Company as a whole I suppose.

 

[Clement Rage]

Honestly, I highly doubt that Rufus didn't know about Deepground. A thousands strong army in the basement isn't something that slips people's minds. And the only confirmation that he didn't is one line in Dirge from Reeve, who isn't completely sure.

Reeve knew there was something there, even though he wasn't on the 'need to know' list, because he was told there was a list in the first place.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I don't think Reeve even knew that much. Didn't he say he learned about Deepground from Scarlet's files?

 

[Shademp]

Vincent & Reeve in the Shadowfox

I don't think Reeve even knew that much. Didn't he say he learned about Deepground from Scarlet's files?

Vincent: "Not even a person in your position was informed?"
Reeve: "No. Other than the President himself, the only people who knew of Deepground's existence were most lkely Heidegger, Scarlet and the head of biochemical research, Hojo. ... As for me, I was told the information was on a need-to-know basis and as an official in charge of Urban Development I guess I wasn't on their list. All the intel we currently have on Deepground was only discovered recently when we came across some of Scarlet's old files."

The impression I get here is that Reeve knew of *a* Deepground project, whether by that name or not, on a need-to-know-basis but with enough knowledge to connect it with Scarlet's files and Deepground subsequent attacks on the world.

Reeve: "After the President's death, the transfer of power to his son was carried out so quickly I doubt Rufus was ever briefed on the project."

The context here is that Reeve was talking about the people who knew the most about the project: Heidegger, Scarlet, President Shinra & Hojo. Rufus was obviously not on that list and Reeve's speculation is that Rufus never learned of the full scale of Deepground.

Certainly, it is possible that Rufus knew just as much as Reeve: That the project existed and that it was on a need-to-know basis. I think that if Rufus had known anything "deeper", he would have taken pre-emptive measures, just like he did when he sent the Turks to retrieve Jenova's head in the Northern Crater.

Whether Rufus should have acted pre-emptively or not, based on knowing so little, I think the intention of the DoC writers was to quickly write Rufus out of the picture as a potential villain (who would have had a hand in Deepground's attacks). Ergo I think that Reeve's assessment reflects the writer's intentions and that we are not supposed to question Reeve.

I am merely speculating of course and going off of my impressions from the game. /off-topic

 

[Roger]

I doubt Rufus knew as much as Reeve did. As the director of Urban Development and the guy in charge of Midgar's construction, it's Reeve's resources being allocated to build and maintain a massive city and population underneath Midgar. Rufus didn't NEED to know anything at all. project was probably mostly finished by the time he joined the Director's Board.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

This must underscore how brilliant Reeve is at what he does if it was felt he was needed in that position despite being too kind-hearted to know about the shadiest shit.

 

[CameoAmalthea]

The only way Rufus would know would be if he managed to gain access to the intel illicitly. Basically, before the OG Rufus Shinra spent more of his time being an anti-Shinra terrorist/agent or Shinra's prisoner than being a Shinra officer. Being VP was probably an honorary possession where he had little actual power other than being able to go to board meetings and have his advice ignored half the time.

If Rufus knew about Deep Ground, it was because he under covered, which he could do in theory being a gifted computer hacker who all ready had high level security clearance and access to the servers, but if deep ground was kept on a separate server or something (I don't know how computers work, but if they could make it so someone without access to Deep Ground couldn't get in or kept paper files, well then Rufus might not have uncovered it). As far as the Turks knew the Deep Ground candidates the brought in were for SOLDIER, so they probably didn't know either.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I just find it easier to pretend Deepground, and Dirge of Cerberus, don't exist. What actually happened was that Vincent was smoking too much razorweed one night, trying to blot out his painful memories of Lucretia, and then he fell asleep and had all these wild, crazy dreams about Hojo coming back to get him - and when he woke up he was in the Honeymoon Suite at the Ghost Hotel at Gold Saucer, lying next to Yuffie who was wearing nothing but a wedding ring, and she told him they'd got married the night before in the Chocobo Chapel right next door to the casino. Vincent didn't remember a thing about it.

 

[Clement Rage]

Rufus didn't NEED to know anything at all. project was probably mostly finished by the time he joined the Director's Board.

You don't think it would be relevant to the guy due to inherit the company that he had an extra army in the basement? I can't see why he wouldn't be on that list.

I think that if Rufus had known anything "deeper", he would have taken pre-emptive measures, just like he did when he sent the Turks to retrieve Jenova's head in the Northern Crater.

What could he do? If he sent in the Turks to eliminate DG, they'd all be dead in ten minutes.

Anyway, on topic: Barret and Tifa were executed for causing Meteorfall, which they... didn't, really. That's all on Cloud's head.

Edit: Why do you hate that game so much, Licorice? It had its dumb moments, (all those free running cutscenes, splitscreen cheering), but overall I thought it was decent.

 

[Shademp]

What could he do? If he sent in the Turks to eliminate DG, they'd all be dead in ten minutes.

Note: This is in the scenario had Rufus known the full scale of Deepground.

Rufus could have stopped the investigation team that got lost three weeks prior to when DC starts. If he had communicated with the WRO about the awaiting threat from below, then a mere investigative team (with reporters alongside them) would not have been allowed to open the gates to Deepground, as seen in the game's intro cutscene. If active parties had known more, than soldiers would have been sent down instead, if the gates had been allowed to be opened at all.

But this is pointless conjecture based on a scenario that is most likely not true. Whatever Rufus should or should not have done doesn't really matter, since any blame or guilt on Rufus's part has not been focused on in the plot, other than the obvious pointers to Rufus funding the WRO's war against Deepground.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I don't think Rufus was told about DG. In the first place, nobody in the Shin-Ra command trusted him. Funding a terrorist organization to take down your dad's company will do that for you.

And Rufus does have a track record of (trying) to deal with problems before they become any bigger. In Case of Shin-Ra, he sends someone to off a scientist who wants to start doing Hojo type experiments with Jenova. In ACC, he sends the Turks to get the remains of Jenova/Sephiroth in Northern Crater so that no one else will do Hojo type experiments with it. It's not his fault they didn't know about Kadaj and Co. And even then he tries to give Cloud and Co. a heads up about them. I get the feeling that if he'd known about DG he would have told Cloud and Co. or the WRO at least about the potential problem it could become. He's not the type of person to leave loose ends hanging, especially if they're going to give Shin-Ra any more bad PR then they already have.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

And Rufus does have a track record of (trying) to deal with problems before they become any bigger...I get the feeling that if he'd known about DG he would have told Cloud and Co. or the WRO at least about the potential problem it could become. He's not the type of person to leave loose ends hanging, especially if they're going to give Shin-Ra any more bad PR then they already have.

That's a very good point, well argued.

@ Clement. I've never actually played Dirge, so the reason I dislike it is due entirely to its fundamental premise and not to any shortcomings in the gameplay. The whole idea of Deepground is just dumb - and more than dumb, it contradicts some established facts about ShinRa, and especially about the Old President.

For one thing, it's just not possible to keep a project of that magnitude secret from all but three people. Huge logistical problems would be involved. How were all those DG solders fed? How was their waste disposed of? And what purpose were they intended to serve?

As far as President Shinra knew, he didn't have any enemies that he actually needed to fear. It's not like he was the USA trying to deal with the Soviet threat during the Cold War. If ShinRa had had any kind of real enemy, then Deepground might be plausible, but otherwise... I mean, come on, this is the guy who couldn't even be arsed to keep funding the space program. President Shinra had one obsession only: the Promised Land. He spent money on projects he thought might lead to the promised land, and on keeping the ratepayers pacified, and that was it. How could the existence of Deepground have helped him achieve the Promised Land? I guess it's possible he thought that when they found the Promised Land it would be guarded by massed hordes of heavily armed Cetras and that Deepground would be needed to defeat them. But there's zero evidence of this.

Deepground was an expensive folly. Now, we all know the Old Man wasn't shy about flinging his bob at wacky projects, but all those projects had a purpose. Deepground served no purpose, and thus the basic premise of this whole game makes no sense. I refuse to violate and distort FFVII canon by trying to force Deepground into it.

I could write a longer essay about this but I have to go teach.

 

[Clement Rage]

Almost nothing Shinra does is cost effective, though. Why does Sister Ray point in the opposite direction to Wutai, the only major threat they have? Why fight an eight year war to build a reactor and then not even try to build it? Why build giant scorpion robots when they aren't very hard to destroy? Why not use any giant robots against the WEAPONs rather than soldiers with RPGs?

My headcanon of Deepground is that it's a pet project that went out of control. The Prez saw how effective the SOLDIERs were and wanted to push the limits of that, so he started a kidnapping program. Lots of people disappear in wars, so it didn't really get noticed. Initially, the experiments had a very high mortality rate, and needed lots of new recruits. Eventually, people started surviving, but no one told the kidnappers to stop. President Shinra woke up one day and discovered a fully equipped army in the basement, that he had no way to exterminate without the secret getting out and bringing down his company. So he did all that stuff about the Restrictors and viruses and promoting the Tsviets to try to keep them in line until he could get rid of them, but had to keep feeding them recruits in the meantime or else they'd decide they had nothing to lose and try to break out.

I had presumed that the investigation team did include soldiers. They were expecting to find an abandoned research station or something and stumbled on a fully equipped army.

Rufus could have stopped the investigation team that got lost three weeks prior to when DC starts.

Assuming he knew the investigation was planned.

And even then he tries to give Cloud and Co. a heads up about them.

Em, no.
'I've got work for you' isn't a heads up.

'I've just painted a target on your back for three high tier mako enhanced fighters' would have been a heads up.

Alright, rather than derail the thread any more, I'll stop now.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Rufus does tell Cloud that Sephiroth's mind may still be alive during a conversation about Kadaj and co. That should have gotten some wheels turning in even Cloud's head.

As for Deepground, if Rufus knew about it, I think he would have flooded the damn thing.

 

[CameoAmalthea]

Honestly, my issue with DoC is more execution than content. I can't play the game without getting motion sick, and my husband says "As someone who loves rpgs and shooters, third person shooters and first person shooters included, this game made me want to shoot myself"

Story wise, they were setting up for the whole compilation, starting back in BC (that's 2005, before anything else in the compilation, this was planned a long time). In BC you recruit on of the Deep Ground guys under the orders "Shinra wants more SOLDIERS because of AVLANCHE". Yeah, AVALANCHE popped up in 2001, and Deepground started decades before that, but I think BC shows the general idea of Deepground. Be super prepared for every possible threat. I just see President Shinra as very paranoid and deeply insecure, so he'd fund anything that would make him feel more secure in his power.

I was talking to Septimalshenanigans on Tumblr and she offered this

Spoiler: this take on President Shinra

I think the old man was massively insecure. He’d amassed all this power and it was too huge. He grew to be too worried about how many enemies he’d made and convinced that everyone wanted to take it away from him. So it was not ruthlessness by nature so much as terror which drove him to it, leading him to throw money at human experimentation and blithely cover up the destruction of towns, and filling his head with dreams of Neo-Midgar in the Promised Land. And meanwhile he throws money at his people, with exorbitant company salaries and perks, praying that they will love him enough to not destroy him. Someone secure in their own power doesn’t destroy entire sections of a city to kill like eight people.

I think her interpretation is spot on, and fits with most of President Shinra’s behaviors and the development of Deep Ground would be consistent with that. With DoC I think the plot (or a more stream lined version) would have been a fine OVA or something.

You don't think it would be relevant to the guy due to inherit the company that he had an extra army in the basement? I can't see why he wouldn't be on that list.

Anyway, on topic: Barret and Tifa were executed for causing Meteorfall, which they... didn't, really. That's all on Cloud's head.

I don’t think Rufus Shinra was ever told “you’re going to inherit this company someday, here’s what you need to know” rather it was more “you might inherit this company someday if you prove yourself, but so far you’re disappointing, impress me”.

President Shinra groomed Rufus to prove he was worthy of the company, pushed him to be ruthless enough, driven enough, and kept approval and assurances out of his reach as a motivator. Their relationship was adversarial. So I doubt the President would care if Deep Ground was something Rufus should know about, he’d get the information when he’d earned a right to be included, while the President lived it’s believable that his attitude would be “that doesn’t concern you, the only thing you should be worried about is earning my approval”.

To me it seems conceivable and in character for President Shinra not to tell Rufus about Deep Ground.

Back on topic, yes Berret and Tifa were to be executed for a crime they didn’t commit, Rufus lied to the people and admitted that, it was a political action. The question is, was it justified, and from a utilitarian perspective the answer may be Yes.

Was it fair? No.

Was it honest? No.

Could it save innocent lives? Yes.

Could Shinra have fairly executed them on other charges? Yes.

Was it justified: That depends on how you interpret “justified”. Do the ends justify the means or are we committed to justice?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

http://www.rpgamer.com/news/Q3-2005/090105b.html

According to this 2005 article on RPGGamer, which I'm sure many people here are familiar with, DoC, BC, and CC were all planned simultaneously, although developed by different teams. Maybe this article has been debunked since then, I don't know, but if it's still taken to be credible, then that means shout-outs to DC were deliberately planted in BC in an uncharacteristic attempt by Square to ensure some kind of continuity.

I agree that, at first glance, the Junon Cannon is not well-placed strategically to act as a deterrent against Wutai, but then again, the whole game doesn't hinge on the Junon Cannon being in a sensible place. Moreover, when the Junon Cannon became the Sister Ray and was fired at the Northern Crater, the mako missile sucessfully covered a distance not much less than the distance (as the crow flies) between Junon and Wutai, without hitting anything else in the way except for poor Diamond Weapon, and negotiating its way around some mountain to boot - so maybe the Junon Cannon wasn't in such a silly spot after all? Maybe it was smart to locate such a powerful weapon of mass destruction right in the heart of the Shinra Empire, where it could be more easily defended.

Maybe the Wutai War started over ShinRa's determination to build a reactor, but then became a matter of (Presidential) pride, and maybe by the end of the war Wutai's economy was so devastated that building a reactor there was no longer economically viable?

Giant scorpion robots aren't very hard for Zack to destroy. Cloud and Barret had some trouble with it (at least, in my game they did). If, instead of Cloud and Barret, it had been Biggs and Wedge who'd set the bomb, the Scorpion would have made mincemeat of them.

Everyone's entitled to their own headcanon. I just find the whole idea of Deepground so utterly improbable that I just can't be doing with it. Like I said, logistically it's completely impossible. And anyway, why would the President want to keep this terrible army a secret? He didn't keep SOLDIER a secret; they were the poster boys for his company. The only thing they kept secret was the way the SOLDIERs were made.

And what use is a deterrent if nobody knows you have it? At least that big-ass cannon was intimidating, even if it was for nothing but show. That was the Old President's way: panem et circenses. Plus, I ask again, what possible enemy could there have been anywhere on the planet that could have justified going to the trouble and expense of creating Deepground - and then keeping Deepground hidden on the off-chance that this hypothetical and totally non-existent enemy attacked? Wutai was a spent force. Avalanche was just a bunch of terrorists - and according to the timeline, the President founded Deepground before Avalanche became active.

Like I said before, canonically President Shinra has no pet projects that don't relate in some way to the Promised Land/the Cetra. If he did have another project, surely it would be an attempt to discover the fountain of youth, or perhaps breed the goose that laid the golden egg. Why does he need Deepground, when he has Sephiroth?

Deepground is nonsensical. I feel that Vincent should have pointed this out.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Except that before Shin-Ra was ever into mako and the Promised Land it was a weapons developer. If anything, I think that mako and the Promised Land was a distraction from what Shin-Ra's original purpose was. Keep in mind that the reason why President Shinra wanted to find the Promised Land was to be able to refine the mako that was supposedly there. All he really cares about is $$.

TBH, what we really see happening with Shin-Ra over the course of the Compilation is how their definition of "weapon" degrades from mechanical to organic to human. DG is when the idea of a human weapon is taken to it's logical conclusion.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

That's a good point, O.F.