Shinra executing Barret/Tifa=Justified? (kinda)

[Octo]

You should be a lawyer, Tres.

I think one day there will be a biopic of Tres, where he's been involved in some sort of human rights cause, and then he has to at some point make a big speech and everybody cheers. He'll probably be played by Eric Bana or Christian Bale or someone.

EDIT: Hollywood will probably want to cast Micheal Cera or Shia leBoef or some shit but you musn't let them!

 

[Clement Rage]

Sorry guys, I've kinda lost track of the conversation here.

Unless he was just trying to manipulate Cloud with a fake display of remorse

I think this is quite possible, considering how many lies he told during that conversation.

Reno: ATTACK!

Rude: ATTACK!

Cloud: You guys really need to work on your salesmanship.

Rufus: I bet you're wondering how I'm still alive. Please allow me to elaborate on the backstory-

Cloud:Shut up, don't care!

Rufusamn. Our investigation turned up nothing. Zilch. Nada. No reason to be on your guard whatsoever.

Who are those guys who attacked you? No clue. I have no idea what they're after, and I certainly didn't tell them you had it, thereby almost getting your quasi-girlfriend and the child in your care killed.

Mother? What significance could that possibly have?

By the way, want a job? I can guarantee a stress free environment, and to cut back on the surprise attacks in future.

Of course he wants to fix the problem, that's the bare minimum that can be expected of him.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

You should be a lawyer, Tres.

I actually was planning to be for a number of years, then realized I was too honest and took journalism instead. Still had to study media law, though, and I enjoy reading about the law in general.

I think one day there will be a biopic of Tres, where he's been involved in some sort of human rights cause, and then he has to at some point make a big speech and everybody cheers. He'll probably be played by Eric Bana or Christian Bale or someone.

I'm kind of expecting this too. I just hope I'm alive to see it.

EDIT: Hollywood will probably want to cast Micheal Cera or Shia leBoef or some shit but you musn't let them!

I'll see what I can do. I guess that will be slightly predicated on the being alive thing. XD

Unless he was just trying to manipulate Cloud with a fake display of remorse

I think this is quite possible, considering how many lies he told during that conversation.

While he wasn't entirely forthcoming with Cloud and certainly tried to put his best face on for that meeting, I don't think he necessarily lied to him about being remorseful.

I mean, Rufus didn't have anyone to impress when he made his defiant speech to Kadaj, and his redemption of heart seems otherwise well-documented by Reeve's insight in Dirge, Rufus's own trial by fire in Episode:Shin-Ra, and his vow to Tseng in The Kids Are Alright to fix his father's mistakes.

 

[BlackSwordMeister]

Someone named Octo wrote:IIRC, Barret told Tifa to steer clear of Corneo, but she went anyway of her own accord.

I've lost track of the conversation, but this is the new LTD!
I was just thinking that myself.


MyOwnPathInLife wrote:Hey, I'm just calling it as I see it. I can't force you to agree with me."
You can, however, make arguments that you can provide support for rather than just saying "Well, it could have been like this ..." and "We don't really know ..." -- even when it couldn't have been like that and we do really know.


MOPIL wrote:Cloud is responsible for his own choices too. He made the choice to accompany Barret. He made the choice to set the bomb.


If anyone isn't entirely responsible for their actions in this matter, it's Cloud. He's the one who was messed up and, ironically, constructed a persona based in large part on impressing Tifa.


MOPIL wrote:She recruited him to keep him close because she knew he was messed up in the head.


And enlisting him for a life-threatening mission to blow up a power plant was necessary to do that?


MOPIL wrote:Unless they outrank the commanding officer or are the CO themselves, recruiters have no control over the orders said CO gives a recruit. Nobody joins the army intent to commit war crimes (except for psychopaths).
Could you please stop pretending that we're talking about a publically sanctioned military of large size that has been around since before most of the people serving in it? We're talking about pretty much the opposite of that.

MOPIL wrote:Let me rephrase that. Being a smaller organization makes it easier to understand who is individually guilty of which action.
Yes. They're all individually guilty of contributing to the missions.


Hawkeye wrote:By that logic, Tifa is more responsible than anyone save Barret.
She provided the base.
Doesn't prove anything.
She provided resources.
What exact resources?
She even brought in additional manpower
One man whom they didn't even need for that mission.

MOPIL said:
Are you going to call every army recruiter a war criminal because of another soldier's war crime?
Again, we're talking about a small terrorist cell, not the godsdamn military.

Nice attempt at deflection, though. It didn't work. Why did you ignore the other lines in my statement?:

-"She provided the base."
-"She provided resources."


MOPIL wrote:Knowing is one thing. Having the ability to stop it is an entirely different matter. Reeve knew that they were going to bomb Sector 7 yet we don't hold him responsible for Sector 7 do we?
He actually holds himself responsible, which kind of defeats your argument. Anyway, no, we don't blame Reeve, but it's bullshit to say that Tifa couldn't have stopped it -- if she actually wanted to.

She could have easily reported the plan to Shin-Ra if she actually wanted to stop it. We never see any indication that she had an objection.


MOPIL wrote:No, she didn't know that innocent bystanders were going to be killed in the crossfire. None of them did. Note her exact words after Sector 7:

"Are you saying it's our fault. Because AVALANCHE was here? Innocent people lost their lives because of us?
She's talking about Sector 7 there. Read the novella again -- she knew people were going to die if they carried out their more desperate measures.


MOPIL wrote:By "sacrifices" she means her own life if need be as well as any soldiers Shinra would doubtless send her way. She's simply saying that she was willing to fight to the death if said soldiers came after her or her comrades.
That's not what she is saying at all. She goes from thinking about the mistakes of her past while watching Meteor be defeated over Midgar -- walking through how mako had become so prevalent and how AVALANCHE had tried in vain to get people to turn away from it -- to how the group took more desperate measures.

She next goes over how the bomb that took out the reactor was more devastating than intended and how this led to Shin-Ra's own desperate response of dropping the plate on Sector 7. She then goes over she had known all along that there would be "necessary" sacrifices, but didn't have time to think about the real toll of it all while they raced to save the world from Sephiroth.

Coming back round to the present for a moment, she goes over how -- with the battles over -- she has time to reflect on what led her here, and she admits that her true motivation in working with AVALANCHE was revenge for Nibelheim and that she had sacrificed innocent people for her personal grudge.

Innocent soldiers, sure but that’s not murder. That’s war.

Which brings her back round to the present again, where it's said that her guilt had been waiting for things to slow down so it could have its day in the sun.

Just read the pages yourself:

http://imgur.com/XBxK4K0.jpg
http://imgur.com/Ydwh2kK.jpg


MOPIL wrote:So she wanted revenge. Revenge is a common motivation for heroes.
They don't usually knowingly let innocent people die for the sake of it, though. Which is why Tifa feels guilt.

She didn't know that the areas around that reactor would be destroyed.

MOPIL wrote:Again, just saying "we" doesn't prove anything. She could be talking about both reactors and even then she's not claiming individual responsibility for the No. 1 attack.
Again, they're talking specifically reactor no. 1.

And who said anything about "individual responsibility"? No one claims individual responsibility for it, because none of them are individually responsible for the entire thing. They are all, however, responsible for their own actions in contributing to the explosion -- as we've been over at length.

Look, you're not getting around this. Tifa decided to sacrifice innocent people. It's there in black and white on the pages I just linked you to above.

It's also there in black and white on the pages of her 10th Anniversary Ultimania profile:

----
Filled with hatred for ShinRa, which had snatched her hometown away from her, she was once a member of the anti-ShinRa organization AVALANCHE led by Barret and immersed herself in their radical activities.
----

It says she immersed herself in their activities. That hardly sounds like some ignorant pawn sitting on the sidelines who doesn't know grapes from dingleberries.
When exactly did I say she was an ignorant pawn. I’m just saying that she’s not as guilty of the No. 1 attack as you say she is.
She’s no innocent bystander, but she’s no mastermind either. She's a field operative IIRC, Jessie was the tech and explosives expert and she’s already paid for it.

----
Some lives being sacrificed in order to save the Planet was unavoidable — the Mako Reactor was blown up whilst having that thought in mind. However, after finding out that many lives were taken because of that, she was hit by regret.
----

Please read that over carefully again and again. However many times it takes for you to accept what's there. She participated in the bombing of the first reactor with the thought in mind that "some lives being sacrificed in order to save the planet was unavoidable." It just ended up being worse than she had expected.

She’s willing to fight to the death against Shinra. She knows that the soldiers she fights against are just doing their jobs. She also acknowledges that missions can go wrong, accidents can happen and people can get caught in the crossfire. That's a reality every resistance fighter faces. Whether you like it or not, that's war

And despite that regret, she didn't protest against planting another bomb. She even went on the next mission.

I thought I already went over this. Revolutions don't end because atrocities occur. Every war has its casualties. Every war has its war crimes.

Let's also look at her Dengeki PS3 profile for Advent Children Complete:

----
As one of the core members of the anti-Shinra organization AVALANCHE, Tifa participated in various bombing missions.
----

"One of the core members." "Various bombing missions."

Paints a pretty clear picture if you're not trying to distort it from the outset, right?

By the way, while Dengeki PS3 is not a Square publication like the Ultimanias, the information in that issue's profiles is generally accepted as canon because of the issue being a special Advent Children Complete/FFXIII issue loaded with interviews from Tetsuya Nomura, Kazushige Nojima, Yoshinori Kitase and other key Square staff. And also because there's some canon information in there that was revealed by that issue before Advent Children Complete even came out (e.g. that Cloud had originally left home before Advent Children in order to find a cure for Denzel, but stayed gone when he failed to find it and contracted the condition himself).

So, let's review:
-Tifa immersed herself in AVALANCHE's activities
True

-Tifa was a core member of AVALANCHE
True

-Tifa was involved in more than one bombing mission
True

-Tifa accepted that some innocent people would have to die in order to blow up the first mako reactor

She knows that the guards and soldiers she kills are innocent of Nibelheim and are just doing their jobs. That's the burden every resistance fighter faces. That's war.

-Tifa recruited a figure instrumental in that first bombing mission's success

One man. One man who was just hired muscle. They were going to destroy

-Tifa provided a base for AVALANCHE where their plans were drafted, and to which the other members sought shelter after blowing the first reactor up
Doesn’t mean she planned that particular attack.

-Tifa participated in a second bombing mission after knowing there were civilian deaths from the first

Please, tell us again how Tifa is some naive twit who didn't know shit about what was going down and is in no way responsible for what did go down. Please tell us how "we don't even know if she knew every detail right before the attack," as though the mercenary from outside the group whom Barret didn't trust would have more information on the plan than a core member.

Please. I'm waiting.

I never said she was a naive twit who didn't know what would happen. I said that she had no reason to believe that any noncombatants would be harmed in the attacks. Bombing missions don’t result in innocent bystanders being killed. More likely said bombing missions were acts of sabotage against Shinra troops (i.e., attacking supply lines and the like.)

MOPIL wrote:The bar wasn't even originally hers. In Crisis Core, there's an easter egg where a guy is planning to open up a bar and trying to determine a name. Guess what the official answer is. As for the basement, it could have been built in before she was given ownership and just converted into a base for AVALANCHE.
Who cares who it originally belonged to or whether the basement was already there? It's her fucking home/restaurant and she made it AVALANCHE's base.

My house didn't originally belong to me, but if I let people plan terrorist acitvities there, I'm responsible for it, even if I don't participate like Tifa.

Not if you're just providing shelter.


MOPIL wrote: Again, L1+R1 is there for a reason.
I'm pretty sure any resistance AVALANCHE encountered wouldn't have allowed them to press imaginary buttons and just walk away.

What I meant to say is that it’s a matter of gameplay.

MOPIL wrote:So are we terrorists for overthrowing Saddam Hussein. Were the resistance movement in Iraq terrorists for overthrowing him. Were the French Resistance terrorists for acts of sabotage against the German Occupation.

Depending on who you ask, yeah. "Terrorist" doesn't mean "evil," don't you know? It does, however, denote a specific type of activity.

Exactly. "Depending on who you ask". I trust you’re familiar with the phrase, “One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.” There’s no one definition of terrorism. The one that makes the most sense to me (and the one least insulting to resistance groups everywhere) is the U.N definition of terrorism as being the deliberate targeting of non-combatants (civilians). I hesitate to use the word “terrorist” because it’s gotten so much of a stigma because of 9/11 and I’m not about to compare Tifa to Bin Laden.

And, again, we're not talking a sanctioned military, which you are hellbent on bringing into these analogies -- where it has no place.
Alright then instead of military let’s try a resistance group fighting against a government. Say the recruitment’s leader drags the new recruit along to perform an act of sabotage. Said act of sabotage goes wrong and kills innocent bystanders. You don’t blame the recruiter, especially if said recruit wasn’t necessarily essential to the mission.

Bringing us back around to the question of "Why the hell would Rufus have any reason to believe she's not as guilty as Barret"? For that matter, how do you justify executing Barret as okay, yet Tifa gets a pass when she provided him a base, resources, manpower, support for the plan, etc.?

Base: Providing shelter alone doesn’t kill people.
Resources: What resources specifically?
Manpower: Recruiting 1 Ex-SOLDIER not even essential to the mission. Remember that AVALANCHE has six members. It didn’t even take all six to infiltrate the Reactor and detonate the bomb.

Because he stood there while Cloud set the bomb?

Why doesn't Jessie get a pass then? You said she doesn't -- so why? She provided resources (like Tifa) in the form of a bomb, but she didn't plant the fucking bomb, did she?

Jessie’s dead it this point, so that argument is moot.

You're extremely selective (i.e. inconsistent) in who you say is innocent and who isn't.

Look, I love Tifa too. She's one of my top three favorite characters in all of Final Fantasy. But this is who she is: someone who made mistakes that got people killed, regretted those mistakes, and then tried to live her life in atonement for those mistakes.

That's Tifa. That's the character. Trying to make her someone other than that is not doing a service to the character. It's distorting who she really is.

I'm sorry, but I stand by what I said. If they didn't die by her hand or order, then I'm not gonna call her out on it. We're not getting anywhere arguing back and forth like this so why don't we just agree to disagree and acknowledge that just like any other person or character, we each interpret her differently.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The problem is that your interpretation of her doesn't match her own, and is contradicted by multiple official sources. If you're happy with that, be my guest, but interpretations are not safe from being wrong.

As for Cloud being "one man" and "just hired muscle," I just want to remind you that he's superhuman and brought materia with him too. He's not Biggs 2.0.

EDIT: No, you know what? I'm not ready to let you off the hook. I really want an explanation as to how Tifa wasn't okay with innocent people dying when you just said "She knows that the guards and soldiers she kills are innocent of Nibelheim and are just doing their jobs."

She knew people were going to die because of the bomb. Even if they were guards, technicians or other Shin-Ra employees -- she knew they were innocent and were going to die. So where the hell is her exemption from being complacent in all this coming from?

What exact resources?

Food, electricity, shelter, information -- and she's not just giving it to him to use as he sees fit. She's an active participant in all this with the same goals.

This isn't Barret's crusade. It's Barret and Tifa and Biggs and Jessie and Wedge's crusade. They're all equal agents in their involvement and willingness to contribute.

If anything, Tifa contributes more than Barret. You could maybe argue that Jessie is more instrumental than Tifa because somebody has to build the bombs, but Tifa is no less than second in relevance.

Not if you're just providing shelter.

Yes, then too.

But that's not what Tifa was doing.




By the way, I'm getting very annoyed with your selective response process. You didn't even touch this portion of my post, which is quite telling of your confidence in your ability to address it:

Bringing us back around to the question of "Why the hell would Rufus have any reason to believe she's not as guilty as Barret"? For that matter, how do you justify executing Barret as okay, yet Tifa gets a pass when she provided him a base, resources, manpower, support for the plan, etc.?

Because he stood there while Cloud set the bomb?

Why doesn't Jessie get a pass then? You said she doesn't -- so why? She provided resources (like Tifa) in the form of a bomb, but she didn't plant the fucking bomb, did she?

You're extremely selective (i.e. inconsistent) in who you say is innocent and who isn't.

You can try deflecting this by saying "Jessie's dead at this point, so that argument is moot" all you like, but you're the one who said she doesn't get a pass in the first place. Why are you trying to back away from it now fhat you've been called out on it?

And why no answer to the question of why Barret doesn't get a pass when the organization's supplier of pretty much everything does? Again, is it because he stood a few feet from Cloud while the latter set the bomb they all knew would be set and which they all worked together to place?

And if Tifa gets a pass because she didn't know how destructive it would be (I can only assume this is why you kept bringing it up), why doesn't Jessie or Barret?

 

[Lex]

Is the argument here really that Tifa is not responsible for the lives lost during the bombing of the reactors? Because I don't understand that at all. I don't understand why you'd try to argue for that. It's clear that she is as responsible for the loss of life in Midgar as Barret is, and she owns up to it.

I actually think saying she's innocent in that is character damaging, and I'm assuming the reverse is your motivation for arguing otherwise "MyOwnPathInLife".

Just wanted to share what I thought, not jumping on a bandwagon or anything.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Yes, I that's what bothers me about MOPIL's argument, too - it diminishes Tifa's character. She's nothing so simple as a 'good woman'. She's so much more than that. It also nullifies most of the character development and growth in wisdom that she experiences during the course of the game.

If he insists on his headcanon Tifa, that's his right. But I don't think Tifa would recognise herself in your interpretation, MOPIL.

 

[CameoAmalthea]

I think with culpability there are levels of culpability and even when parties share fault they can do so at different levels. For instance, in regards to Sector 7 Tseng, Reno, Rude, and the Shinra Board of Executives (Reeve included, Rufus Shinra excluded because he wasn't party to that decision) all share culpability for that action. While President Shinra bares the most blame because he had ultimate authority, that doesn't mean those with less culpability like Reeve or Rude are not to blame. The question is the share of the blame.

While Tifa did not carry out the terrorist acts herself, she was a member of the organization and aided AVALANCHE it it's efforts. That makes her culpable, perhaps not as much as other members, but she is still culpable. The question is not one of innocence or guilt, she's guilty, the question is how much of the fault is on her.

In regard's to Rufus Shinra's actions, the fact she was part of AVALANCHE and had aided and abetted their efforts made her guilty. You can argue the sentence was extreme (though at the time politically smart), but you can't argue she isn't guilty. I think using a Military analogy does not fit the scenario, rather I'd argue that AVALANCHE is a criminal organization that carried out criminal activity.

Given that, allow me to make this analogy, if a group decides to rob a bank. One person goes in to rob the bank, one person drives the get away car, one person recruits someone to crack the safe and sets up a hide out where they can escape to, and during the course of the robbery the robber shoots someone. Who is responsible for the person dying, the person with the gun or everyone involved in the robbery. Under American criminal law, they'd all be culpable because the rule is if someone dies during the commission of a felony everyone involved can be held responsible. So your partner in crime shoots someone, you can be tried for first degree murder which can carry the death penalty in some states. I bring up real life law to demonstrate that it's not an unheard of rational that everyone involved in a action should bare blame for its consequences.

Furthermore, unlike a bank robbery where the goal isn't to kill civilians, it is extremely foreseeable blowing up a reactor, an act of terrorism, will result in casualties. If Tifa had bee involved in a bank robbery, you wouldn't say she's not guilty of the robbery because she didn't physically go into the bank, likewise, you can't say she's not guilty of blowing up the reactor. Since the reactor's explosion caused loss of life and substantial property damage, and she is culpable for blowing up the reactor because she took some part in the group, then it follows she is culpable for the following and foreseeable loss of life.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Very funny. Now you're just making her out to be a slut.

Me pointing out how your implication that Barret was in on the Corneo infiltration thing (at least enough so that he could have a backup escape plan with her) contradicts your claim that you never thought Barret had ever done more than tell Tifa to leave it alone makes Tifa a slut? Wut?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Me pointing out how your implication that Barret was in on the Corneo infiltration thing (at least enough so that he could have a backup escape plan with her) contradicts your claim that you never thought Barret had ever done more than tell Tifa to leave it alone makes Tifa a slut? Wut?

Yes, because, you see, Tifa thought Cloud was dead, and since the only reason she had stayed with AVALANCHE, even after the attack on Reactor One opened her eyes to the truth about their methods, was to take care of Cloud, she had decided to quit being a "terrorist" (since her conscience could not condone the taking of innocent lives) and go to the Honeybee Inn to start a new life as an honest whore. She wasn't, like, trying to infiltrate Corneo's mansion in order to obtain some vital informaton or anything.

 

[BlackSwordMeister]

Hawkeye says:
The problem is that your interpretation of her doesn't match her own, and is contradicted by multiple official sources. If you're happy with that, be my guest, but interpretations are not safe from being wrong.

As for Cloud being "one man" and "just hired muscle," I just want to remind you that he's superhuman and brought materia with him too. He's not Biggs 2.0.

EDIT: No, you know what? I'm not ready to let you off the hook. I really want an explanation as to how Tifa wasn't okay with innocent people dying when you just said "She knows that the guards and soldiers she kills are innocent of Nibelheim and are just doing their jobs."

Innocent as far as what happened at Nibelheim. Not innocent in terms of war as in innocent civilians (Shinra doesn't differentiate between military and state police so guards would fall under military). It's the same burden every resistance fighter faces.

She knew people were going to die because of the bomb. Even if they were guards, technicians or other Shin-Ra employees -- she knew they were innocent and were going to die. So where the hell is her exemption from being complacent in all this coming from?

The fact that she didn't order their deaths. The fact that she didn't supply the bomb nor the materials to make said bomb. The fact that she didn't plan nor help plan the attack herself. The fact that she didn't blow up that reactor herself, though now I think I see your point.

Hawkeye says:
Food, electricity, shelter, information -- and she's not just giving it to him to use as he sees fit. She's an active participant in all this with the same goals.

I agree with everything except "information". IIRC, Jessie found the plans for the attack (including bomb-making, layout of the reactors, fake IDs, etc.) on a computer left by Fuhito (the scientist for the original AVALANCHE in Before Crisis.)

Gym Leader Devil says:
Me pointing out how your implication that Barret was in on the Corneo infiltration thing (at least enough so that he could have a backup escape plan with her) contradicts your claim that you never thought Barret had ever done more than tell Tifa to leave it alone makes Tifa a slut? Wut?

I apologize for my earlier remark. I thought you were making fun of me.

My final answer to the thread's original question "Was Shinra attempting to execute Barret and Tifa justified?"

Based on law: Perhaps...but then again, laws differ among nations and laws aren't always fair...

Based on personal feelings: No, because of the following reasons:


1. A lot of the madness that happens is the result of Shinra which is why I shed no tears for anyone who willingly works for them. Tifa and Barret were robbed of just about everything and everyone they ever held dear and since Shinra essentially governs the world (including the courts), there was legal way for them to fight back. Such occasions are exactly how rebellions and revolutions start. If any of us had endured what they did, a lot of us would have done the same, if not worse..

2. FF7 was the first PS1 game I ever played and since then Tifa has been my favorite character from that game. I love her and it's heartbreaking to watch her suffer the way she does as the result of one bad decision after another as the result of fate choosing to screw her over. Nobody deserves to go through half of what she's endured. I feel the constant need to defend her because I see a lot of myself in her and I can't bring myself to condemn anything she does because, as I said, a lot of us would have done the same if pushed to the brink like she was.

PLEASE DON'T TAKE THIS AS A PRO-TERRORIST RANT BECAUSE IT IS NOT EVEN CLOSE TO THAT. I AM PRO-AMERICA ALL THE WAY AND I DON'T CONDONE REAL-WORLD TERRORISM IN ANY SHAPE OR FORM. I DON'T SUPPORT 9/11. I MOST CERTAINLY DON'T CONDONE NOR AGREE WITH ATTACKS ON US CITIZENS OR TROOPS. I SUPPORT OUR THE FINE MEN AND WOMEN WHO SERVE OUR COUNTRY STATESIDE OR OVERSEAS. I SAY AGAIN I AM ANTI-TERRORIST AND AM A SUPPORTER OF THE UNITED STATES AND ITS MILITARY.

LET ME SAY IT ONE MORE TIME. I AM NOT PRO-TERRORIST. I AM AMERICAN AND DAMN PROUD OF IT!!

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Innocent as far as what happened at Nibelheim. Not innocent in terms of war as in innocent civilians.

What does that even mean? It sounds like something you're just making up.

We're not even talking about a war. We're talking about unsuspecting people just doing their jobs and getting blown up. Even if you can make an excuse for the guards (which you can't), there isn't one for maintenance crews and the like.

It's the same burden every resistance fighter faces.

Congratulations. You just excused everyone involved in the 9/11 attacks on bullshit grounds. "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" -- this quote exists for a reason.

The fact that she didn't order their deaths. The fact that she didn't supply the bomb nor the materials to make said bomb. The fact that she didn't plan nor help plan the attack herself. The fact that she didn't blow up that reactor herself.

Now you're just lying. You've already been shown proof that she did help plan the attack ("she immersed herself in their radical activities," as well as recruited Cloud) and decided that "some lives being sacrificed" was necessary. Those are direct quotes from official sources.

And didn't supply materials? Where are you getting that from? She supplied the base where the bombs could be built, the electricity for the tools that would have been used, and God knows what else.

She's just as involved as Jessie or anyone else -- and arguably more so than most.

I agree with everything except "information". IIRC, Jessie found the plans for the attack (including bomb-making, layout of the reactors, fake IDs, etc.) on a computer left by Fuhito (the scientist for the original AVALANCHE in Before Crisis.)

While we're on that topic, I've been wondering for a while if this is accurate. It's something I've seen said a number of times (actually, I've seen fans say both that Jessie found the plans and that Barret found them), but I can't remember where it was officially stated, if, indeed, it was.

I'm wondering if this is just one of those things that became fanon and now no one questions? It sounds like something that could be accurate, but I'm not sure it is.

1. A lot of the madness that happens is the result of Shinra which is why I shed no tears for anyone who works for them being killed.

That's ... ridiculous. You're not only talking about most of the population of the planet, but they don't really have viable alternatives for employment to pick from, nor are they even aware of Shin-Ra's human rights violations.

You're going to a lot of illogical trouble to make excuses for Tifa.

And going back to the real world, you're excusing any attacks on U.S. citizens, especially military personnel, by anyone who blames the U.S. for any unfortunate circumstances in their own lives -- and there's plenty of people who could fairly make that accusation.

Tifa and Barret were robbed of just about everything and everyone they ever held dear and since Shinra essentially governs the world (including the courts), there was legal way for them to fight back. Such occasions are exactly how rebellions and revolutions start. If any of us had endured what they did, a lot of us would have done the same, if not worse..

Which was never the question.

Though, following your own logic, Shin-Ra was justified in razing Corel. AVALANCHE blew up the reactor there and Shin-Ra believed that people in the town were providing refuge for them.

What's a few innocent deaths "in times of war," as you would say?

And that, by the way, is why the point is made that Tifa, Barret, etc. were still in the wrong. Because two wrongs don't make a right. "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind," as Ghandhi said.

AVALANCHE killed some of Shin-Ra's people and blew up their reactor, so they destroyed Corel and killed innocent people. That lead to the second incarnation of AVALANCHE killing innocent people.

This sort of thing is a never-ending cycle of "justification," and no matter whether you can justify any individual action, in the end you still have people dead who had nothing to do with the reasons the killers were pissed off in the first place.

Now, who is to deny vengeance against Tifa and Barret from the families of those who lost everything because of them? I really, really want to hear what kind of lame excuse gets them off scott free.

Or, wait, I'm sorry. What lame excuse gets just Tifa off scott free.

2. FF7 was the first PS1 game I ever played and since then Tifa has been my favorite character from that game. It hurts like hell to watch her suffer the way she does as the result of one bad decision after another as the result of fate choosing to screw her over. Nobody deserves to go through half of what she's endured. I feel the constant need to defend her because I see a lot of myself in her and I can't bring myself to condemn anything she does because, as I said, I might have done the same in her situation.

Who cares? No, seriously. Who cares? You might have done the same. I might have done the same. Big fucking deal. We would still be in the wrong. We would still be killers. We would still be creating more people like us who don't deserve to go through the same shit we do.

Do you not realize this was Denzel's symbolic role? Just like her, he lost everything -- his home, his parents, any friends he may have had. He's a very real reminder for Tifa that her "justified" hatred just creates more victims exactly like herself.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Should have stuck with the original post pre edits

I had some sympathy for that.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I had actually thanked that one.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

XD No, I'm not. I never thought you were saying you were pro-Al Qaeda or anything, dude -- in fact, I was sure your feelings were the opposite of that. I was just trying to remind you that you didn't think so and get you to apply an even standard to that sentiment.

No hard feelings on my end.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Keep in mind that my original tone for this topic wasn't postulating whether Tifa/Barret deserved to be executed on an objective moral basis; to that I'd say no. What they were involved in was wrong, but it was way too gray for them to deserve to die.

The topic was me postulating that Shinra had a logical justification for executing them.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Me, me, I answered that question, Mog!! But it goes to show how many different angles there are to be considered when deciding whether or not something like that is justified.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

You did, and thank you! Of course I don't mean to imply that there's only a 'right' set of answers, but I want everyone to be aware of what the question originally was.

However this entire topic has been great so far with all sorts of discussion.

 

[BlackSwordMeister]

Ghostface Killah says:

Keep in mind that my original tone for this topic wasn't postulating whether Tifa/Barret deserved to be executed on an objective moral basis; to that I'd say no. What they were involved in was wrong, but it was way too gray for them to deserve to die.

The topic was me postulating that Shinra had a logical justification for executing them.

Based on logic alone, no because I fail to see the point. No matter who is blamed, I doubt a giant meteor headed straight for the Planet is going to not cause panic anyway. This was just pointless cruelty and showboating on Shinra's part.

 

[Lex]

Are you not allowed to use the quote button or do you not know how? I'm only pointing it out because I find your posts hard to read.

If there's a section of a post you want to quote, there's a quote button or "["]" button to quote multiple posts. Since you seem to be doing it manually, the BBCode is:

(QUOTE=Member Name) Quote Goes Here (/QUOTE)

With square brackets. Just incase you're not sure how to do it. I'm not picking on you or anything, I just find your posts a bit hard to follow

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Based on logic alone, no because I fail to see the point. No matter who is blamed, I doubt a giant meteor headed straight for the Planet is going to not cause panic anyway. This was just pointless cruelty and showboating on Shinra's part.

What he says is sound, though -- people will feel better if they believe those at fault are punished. Panic will still ensue as the meteor makes its final descent, sure, but it would help for a while anyway, if only with the people feeling better part.

That doeen't necessarily make what Rufus did moral, no. But from his perspective, if anyone had to be picked for the purpose, it makes sense to pick those who were known to the public already for causing wide-scale death and destruction.

 

[CameoAmalthea]

Let’s keep in mind Rufus’s political philosophy:

“I'll control the world with fear. It takes too much to do it like my old man."

Now, Rufus’s “Old Man” wasn’t a paragon of forward social policy. He didn’t spend money on the people to take care of them, he spent money on drawn out wars, destroying civilian populations, and covering it up. Bread and circuses, he used propaganda to create distracting heroes, provided basic services, and didn’t actually protect anyone.

“Work at Shinra, get your pay. If a terrorist attacks, the Shinra army will help you. It looks perfect on the outside."

“Perfect” from the outside, but I realty unforgivably wasteful, both economically and in terms of human lives. In contrast, Rufus wouldn’t level an entire city (Sector 7) to get at a small group of terrorists, rather he would round up those actually responsible and publically execute them to send a message. “If you cross Shinra, you will die”.

Rufus believes this is the best way to keep people in line. So of course, he wouldn’t see anything wrong with executing known terrorists.

However, Rufus also has a crisis on his hands. People are panicking and probably questioning Shinra’s ability to handle the situation.

Saying, “Keep calm, everything is fine, we have everything under control and will find a solution.” Works better if you can actually show some semblance of power. Executing “the terrorists responsible” makes it seem as though Shinra is responding quickly and efficiently. No need to panic, Shinra’s caught the “bad guys”, it will be ok.

It’s not pointless cruelty, its calculated cruelty.

Additionally, a public execution is a great way to demonstrate the new public policy. Under the former President no one was publicly executed (people died, but they were discretely shot in the back and their deaths were covered up), but Rufus will execute people who threaten the peace. This message may help the populace rethink any plans to riot and loot.

Rufus is not a "nice" person, but he isn't one for pointless cruelty. He does what he thinks is necessary, he's ruthless but he's not sadistic.

 

[ForceStealer]

Rufus is a prime example of a villain who is likable just for his ruthless pragmatism (rather than 'feeling for him' or 'understanding why he is who he is'). He's evil, but it can be hard to argue with his logic, and he's so badass while doing it to boot.
That's why his cockiness is so enjoyable when it's directed at anyone else.
E.g.
"It's that kind of dullness that makes you a second-rate scientist."
"A good son would have known."

It's similar to when Reno took out Corneo, it's fun to root for a badass doing what one of the heroes would never do, even to another villain.

Rufus is awesome.

 

[Lex]

I definitely like that aspect of Rufus, yeah.

 

[Rydeen]

The fact that he didn't cower in fear in the face of extreme adversary like many young heirs in fiction was enough to sell him to me by disc 2. In the beginning of Before Crisis he was an entitled brat and irritating villain, but as his character develops through the compilation he obtains the firm grasp on logic and mental perseverance that establish him as worthy and qualified for his position and ego despite his complete lack of compassion most of the time. This, I think, is what makes him a likable but legitimate villain in the OG.

There's nothing in the original game that concretely indicates him to be sadistic per se, but I think it could be rather easily assumed via artistic license given his other characteristics and simple characterization in the OG. That's how he was received according to a lot of fanfiction submitted before Advent Children.

Of course, Rufus' explanation makes basic sociological sense and he's not cackling maniacally as Scarlet tends to do. Like Force and Cameo say, he had a sound logical basis for his cruelty regarding that particular issue. Given the graphics and lack of voicing, whether he enjoyed informing the party of their fate or was apathetic, and whether or not he was originally thought of to be a sadistic character is of a variable mileage to the gamer.

As made clear by the compilation, he obviously enjoys figurative chess matches and screwing with people, but in Case of Shinra was disgusted by Mutten's sadistic tendencies and excessive torture devices. So, I've concluded that his character is just intended to be apathetically ruthless (albeit far less after Meteorfall due to his experiences) and smug. He wouldn't actually expect people to enjoy dominance to that extreme.