Should the Turks be more Sympathetic?

[Fangu]

I think the fact that the Turks are the most likable murderers you'll ever meet is absolutely genius and I would be incredibly disappointed if they tried to take away that ambiguity.

This is really nicely put.

 

[Flare]

I think the fact that the Turks are the most likable murderers you'll ever meet is absolutely genius and I would be incredibly disappointed if they tried to take away that ambiguity.


I'm not surprised at all that Tifa would talk to Reno like a friend. That's how we all feel about the Turk's, right? They've done some horrible things, but they're damn likable.

A big part of the reason why I connected so strongly with the Kids are Alright - or at least the amount of it I've been capable of reading - is because, well. First off, I feel like, all the pieces of the compilation present very different feeling representations of the world of the narrative based on the perspective through which you're seeing the story. In DoC, everyone talks like Vincent, it's always night time, everything is very large and dramatic. In CC, I thought the music felt very different than in FFVII, but I thought it suited Zack very well. It's electric guitars and action, then it's soft and sad. Perfect for an aspiring hero, who ain't too man to openly sob when his friend dies. So anyway, I ended up feeling like Evan's FFVII was my FFVII. It really resonated with me as, the world through Evan's eyes was the way I was seeing it all along.
Contributing to that feeling for me, was the character descriptions.
A quote from Kyrie, RE the Turks: "They laugh, and seem charming, even kind, but they’re not normal people. Those were the eyes of people who always fight. Those were the hands of killers."
I thought that was an amazing description. That was the kind of shit I've been trying to say about the Turks for years.

So yeah, I'd be incredibly disappointed if they tried to make the Turks more likable by taking out the whole murderers part, but I don't think that's gonna happen.

Reading the Kids are Alright made me feel like Nojima may have been responsible for whatever tiny imperceptible thing in FFVII that made me connect more hardcore with the franchise than I have any other story. I trust him immensely.

I like what you say here, I really agree with you. I always found the Turks to be dangerous and yeah, murderers, but yet the ones we see do have charms about them. Like, they'd be such great friends, and you could visit them and stuff and have fun hanging out with them. And yet they can go and beat people up, kill them, or kidnap them for their job.
They're really great characters, and quite engaging.
I loved them in the Kids Are Alright, they were awesome. It showed you more of how they really are, in all situations. Reno took a liking to Evan and wanted to be friends with him, and yet all the same there's always that sort of underlining danger about Reno, and all the Turks.

Anyways, not explaining this as good as you or Kyrie.

Point is, I think they should follow, more or less, the storyline and character arcs they have in the OG. I liked them being the 'grey' villains, capable of being likeable and charming even when they do terrible stuff.

 

[Dangerous Toast]

I dont want them to be more sympathetic, what I would like to see is in Act 3 as the world is going to shit that they act in the interests of helping our heroes in the interest of saving the planet.

A theme that stuck with me from FFVII and the reason I remain so fond of it is every character is flawed, they all have blood on their hands but the possibility of redemption is offered.

I would like to see more Turk action throughout the game.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

A theme that stuck with me from FFVII and the reason I remain so fond of it is every character is flawed, they all have blood on their hands but the possibility of redemption is offered.

Exactly, I loved it because in its own wacky way it told some deep truths about being human.

 

[Kionae]

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I really didn't mind that the Turks were largely comic relief in AC. I kind of always considered them as such, to a point, anyway.

If you think about it, a lot of the really iconic scenes with the Turks ARE funny. Reno telling the guards not to step on the flowers in the church (and then doing so himself)... Reno and Rude being more interested in their vacation (and pissing off Elena) than going after Corneo in Wutai... Reno and Rude talking about how Rude's got a crush on Tfia outside Gongaga... Elena's infatuation with Tseng...


I don't want them to be any less amusing in the remake... and I don't really want them to seem more sympathetic, either... they're plenty sympathetic in the OG, if you ask me. But you do have to pay attention to actually see it (which, given that they're semi-minor characters that just pop up out of nowhere from time to time, it's easy to miss).

Why can't the comic relief also be total badasses?

 

[Octo]

^exactly, they were 'sympathetic' enough already because they had a huge following even prior to AC and the compilation.

 

[Random Nobody]

Not even sure how that would work unless they sterilise the destruction of Sector 7.

 

[ForceStealer]

Maybe it just wasn't worth holding a grudge against them when everyone who was alive by the end of the OG was stuck having to work together to rebuild some semblance of infrastructure and minimize deaths from the aftereffects. If you were willing to help, then that was enough to have a second chance and try to make up for your mistakes as best you could. After the OG, everyone is left to face the consequences of their actions, including Barret and Tifa.

This. Barret and Tifa both struggle with their own guilt regarding the innocent lives they took. I could see them hesitating to hold onto a grudge againt the Turks. With whom they had truces before (Wutai) and could even part on fairly neutral terms. The giggle might have been a bit far, but Tifa's the kind of person who might be more willing to move forward in the world than hold a grudge. She's still smart enough to be suspicious though and warn Cloud.

Also:

You are giving a lot of weight to that one overly perky greeting. I wouldn't go so far as to call them friends. The only other thing she says to them is "Did you find them?" Which is all business.

Now, on the other hand, Cloud's interaction with Rufus and the gang is just short of hostile. Rufus tries to spin him a sad story, and Cloud is having none of it. When he threatens to leave, Rufus has to work really hard to keep him in the room, and ultimately fails to get him on his side.

Vincent saves Tseng and Elena, but despite the fact that they were 'brutally tortured', his opinion is that 'they had it coming'. They're not suddenly best friends.

Worth noting is that the reason Cloud gets attacked by the remnants is that Rufus told them he had JENOVA's head. Without giving him any warning. (And no, 'i've got work for you' is not the same thing as 'three Sephiroth remnants are going to try to kill you')

As for case of Shinra, Elena's loyalty is to Tseng, not Rufus, Rude explains his motivations as just not knowing how to do anything else. Reno says something ambiguous about regrets.

All of this. Cloud's starting to draw his sword before he even opens the door. The only real comic relief in that scene comes from the fact that they're no match for Cloud and they know it.

I agree with the general sentiment that the Turks are good as they are. Part assholes, part just-doing-a-job, part comic relief. Just more of that FF7-signature grayness we all love about it.

 

[Clement Rage]

Y'know, it's funny that people are bringing up how sympathetic the Turks are in BC. That's the game that completely killed any regard I had for them (except Elena). It's an incredibly well made mobile phone game, but it jumped up and down on like three of my literary berserk buttons, and didn't really portray them nearly as sympathetically as it tried to.

 

[Tashasaurous]

Y'know, it's funny that people are bringing up how sympathetic the Turks are in BC. That's the game that completely killed any regard I had for them (except Elena). It's an incredibly well made mobile phone game, but it jumped up and down on like three of my literary berserk buttons, and didn't really portray them nearly as sympathetically as it tried to.

I like the Turks being sympathetic(well, not too much), because it shows that even they are human, just following orders.

Plus, they are not completely evil as far as I'm concerned. For example-how Tseng told Aerith to take care in the original game, and in the optional "Let's not fight" scene where Reno states that ShinRa is finished and leaves Cloud's gang alone, and how he and Rude go out of their way to join Cloud's gang to rescue Elena and Yuffie and how Reno decides to not fight them in Wutai, and that Rude has a crush on Tifa(who doesn't have a crush on her?-except me since I'm not...well, I'm not a romantic person at all, so no worries there-She's beautiful and tough!)

It's Heidegger, Scarlet and Hojo who are the most heartless, the now dead President(no, it's not Rufus) being second in line. Rufus was a polite and sensable bastard but he somewhat redeemed himself after the original game, so, he's off that very evil list.

 

[OneThousandCuts]

I think it's a lot easier to write off Tifa's giggle in ACC as a mistake on the part of the director*, rather than try to integrate it into the canon of Avalanche's relationship with the Turks. That said, she'd likely be more willing than Cloud or Barret to let bygones be bygones, since for her Sephiroth, not the Turks, is the face of Shinra's evil. Also, Rude and Reno did help Avalanche rescue Yuffie, and kept their word by not trying to fight Cloud and Co even when ordered to do so.

*Tifa isn't a giggly sort of woman anyway. Everything about that scene is totally out of character for her, especially since she was preoccupied with worrying about Cloud just moments before she answered the phone. I think the giggle scene was put into the movie not because it's true to Tifa's character, but so all the fangirls would squee and cry "Ooo, she must be talking to Reno!"

Maybe I'm doing some mental gymnastics with this one to make it more in character, but that scene always came off as more of a nervous chuckle to me. Not, "Oh, hi, nice to hear from you!" in spirit, but more like, "Oh...shit...it's you. Fuck. Yeah, I remember you...(What do you want this time?)"

Not to say that the voice acting did well in conveying it...

As for Cloud, Tifa and Co.'s relationship with the Turks--I personally don't see why anything needs to be changed in the OG to make them softer or friendlier, more empathetic, or what-have-you. At least in my opinion, the relationship between them never changed from being 'Frienemies', although where on that spectrum the relationship stands from OG to AC is debatable. But ultimately, they rely on one another and work together because it's convenient, and because they have a common enemy and mission, not because they're bros.

As for not holding any hard-and-fast grudges...Well, I think it really does boil down to everyone knowing they have no right to "cast the first stone", so to speak. Hindsight is 20/20. The Sector 7 Plate? That killed a lot of innocent people. Blowing up Mako reactors? That accomplished the same. The attitude of needing to atone for those misdeeds is something that the former members of AVALANCHE and the Turks seem to hold in common in AC.

That, and surviving something like the near-apocalypse that was Meteor probably puts things in a severely humbling perspective that very few--hopefully none--of us, can actually relate to.

 

[Clement Rage]

Did Rufus redeem himself? If you look closely at AC, he's sending three superpowered killers after Cloud without any warning. It looks to me like he was aiming for them all to kill each other (which would have happened if not for Aeris' intervention.)

It bugs me that the Turks are the only characters in the entire series to completely escape any consequences for their actions.

What does Heidegger do that's so heartless? If it's laughing about Sector 7, Tseng does that too.

 

[Octo]

What does Heidegger do that's so heartless?

Not being conventionally attractive and having a fan base

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Tseng laughs when he's confronting his enemies, in a high-stress situation. He's also furious with them for having ensnared Aerith and furious with Aerith for all sorts of things. Heidegger laughs at the very thought of it, from the comfort of the office.

Pretty sure Rufus thinks Cloud can dispose of the three silver-haired androgynous young men without breaking into a sweat. He subsequently sends the Turks to help Cloud in his final battle, whereas Tifa - Tifa! - tells their friends not to help.

Heidegger is handsome like Captain Haddock!

 

[Kionae]

What does Heidegger do that's so heartless? If it's laughing about Sector 7, Tseng does that too.

Well, he did have a habit of beating on poor unsuspecting Shinra grunts when he was pissed off. I always kind of got the impression that he was just generally a total dick, regardless of the situation.

 

[Starling]

Heidegger is handsome like Captain Haddock!

Heidegger's got nothing on Haddock. Haddock has redeeming qualities shown by his personality and actions.

I think Rufus had some time to reflect on his actions and genuinely want to make things better, but still has a penchant for manipulation. Keep in mind that the remnants were likely to try to kill him if he didn't get Cloud involved.

 

[OneThousandCuts]

It bugs me that the Turks are the only characters in the entire series to completely escape any consequences for their actions.

Well...there was that part in AC where they collected Jenova's remains from the Northern Crater, resulting in Tseng and Elena's capture and subsequent torture. (Which, amazingly enough, left them with only a few bandages after a very short time despite said torture supposedly having been particularly brutal, if we're to believe Vincent.)

But I get what you're saying. They have a way of being slippery to the point of absurdity. Post-OG, Rufus and the Turks kind of feel like they've been downgraded from evil mega-corporation to something along the lines of the mafia--if that can really be called a downgrade. They still seem to operate 'above' the law, and it pretty much goes without saying that Shinra's the one lining the W.R.O.'s pockets with plenty of gil.

I believe that a few of the Turks are probably interested in acting for atonement or the greater good, or have at least convinced themselves that they are. Rufus? Rufus cares only for his own interests.

 

[Starling]

I think Rufus can make his situation work to his advantage. Less exposure for what he does means he can be more subtle about it. Whether or not Rufus can be considered reformed, his intentions seem to be better than they used to be.

 

[Clement Rage]

Tseng laughs when he's confronting his enemies, in a high-stress situation. He's also furious with them for having ensnared Aerith and furious with Aerith for all sorts of things. Heidegger laughs at the very thought of it, from the comfort of the office.

Pretty sure Rufus thinks Cloud can dispose of the three silver-haired androgynous young men without breaking into a sweat. He subsequently sends the Turks to help Cloud in his final battle, whereas Tifa - Tifa! - tells their friends not to help.

Heidegger is handsome like Captain Haddock!

Heidegger laughs at everything, it's a major character trait. It might even be stress relief.

He doesn't know they know Aeris. And he thinks they're going to die after he talks, there's no reason to put on a performance.

Pretty sure Rufus thinks Cloud can dispose of the three silver-haired androgynous young men without breaking into a sweat.

Because in his experience silver haired androgynous young men are not dangerous? He deliberately misleads Cloud as to how dangerous they are with 'there are plenty of kids who miss their mothers' , why would he deliberately try to put him less on guard. If he wanted to keep his hands clean, all he had to say is 'dunno, better be careful'.

Well, he did have a habit of beating on poor unsuspecting Shinra grunts when he was pissed off.

Interesting thing about that, the grunts don't seem to resent him for it. Right after he does that, they comment about how much pressure he's under and how much gets dumped on him.

Keep in mind that the remnants were likely to try to kill him if he didn't get Cloud involved.

If they wanted him dead, he'd be dead. They need him as long as he has Jenny hidden.

Well...there was that part in AC where they collected Jenova's remains from the Northern Crater, resulting in Tseng and Elena's capture and subsequent torture.

Wow, Elena has no luck at all. And she hasn't even done anything evil that we know about. But they got away from it pretty intact and didn't seem to learn any lessons from it.

 

[Starling]

If they wanted him dead, he'd be dead. They need him as long as he has Jenny hidden.

Sending them after Cloud can be considered stalling to keep them off the trail to where Jenova's remains really are, especially considering Rufus and the Turks were pretending they didn't have it.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

It bugs me that the Turks are the only characters in the entire series to completely escape any consequences for their actions.

But I get what you're saying. They have a way of being slippery to the point of absurdity. Post-OG, Rufus and the Turks kind of feel like they've been downgraded from evil mega-corporation to something along the lines of the mafia--if that can really be called a downgrade. They still seem to operate 'above' the law, and it pretty much goes without saying that Shinra's the one lining the W.R.O.'s pockets with plenty of gil.

I believe that a few of the Turks are probably interested in acting for atonement or the greater good, or have at least convinced themselves that they are. Rufus? Rufus cares only for his own interests.

From ACC, Case of Shinra and the Lateral Biography, I get the impression Reno just likes to have a good time and sees Shinra as his "team", Rude's genuinely contrite, Tseng is a mess of conflicting emotions and rotted goodness held together by loyalty to Shinra, and Elena is deadlier than all the guys put together. She's the one who really likes to beat the crap out of people; she will never bend the rules.

They do get some retribution. Rude and Reno are beaten pretty comprehensively by Loz and Yazoo. They get their butts kicked numerous times by Avalanche. Elena is kidnapped and tortured and never gets to go on a date with Tseng. Tseng is skewered by Sephiroth and left for dead by almost everybody, and then he's also kidnapped and tortured. He is so screwed up. They do have a tendency to bounce back, though. There's probably a TV Trope about that. They are, after all, fictional villains.

I like to think Reeve finds them handy for certain essential tasks he doesn't want to ask the WRO to do, as it would reflect badly on him.

 

[OneThousandCuts]

I like to think Reeve finds them handy for certain essential tasks he doesn't want to ask the WRO to do, as it would reflect badly on him.

Absolutely.

From OG to AC(C) to Dirge, Reeve is a human chess-player if there ever was one. If not for his good intentions and fairly squishy heart situated in just the right spot, he'd be one hell of a dangerous person.

On a personal level, it's all Mr. Nice Guy, but professionally/ politically...yeah, Reeve is right there on the Turks' level. Not beyond spying and taking hostages, and definitely not over using old, shady connections to make things work as planned.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I see we think alike on the subject of Reeve.

 

[Starling]

Reeve's always had an interesting connection to the Turks. It's like he's a Turk associate or something without actually being one.

 

[Dragonslayer Ornstein]

Is that mostly because of his outfit? He always seemed very different to them to me.