Should the Turks be more Sympathetic?

[Starling]

They have different attitudes but Reeve's been shown to be at least competent with stuff Turks do, especially since they've relied on his help at times. Why the hell would he be the one to spy on Avalanche if he didn't already know something about spying? Cait Sith isn't exactly subtle but considering he was in Gold Saucer when he joined, that didn't make him too out of place.

 

[Clement Rage]

Sending them after Cloud can be considered stalling to keep them off the trail to where Jenova's remains really are, especially considering Rufus and the Turks were pretending they didn't have it.

Doesn't explain why they don't warn him. Like, at all.

They do get some retribution. Rude and Reno are beaten pretty comprehensively by Loz and Yazoo. They get their butts kicked numerous times by Avalanche. Elena is kidnapped and tortured and never gets to go on a date with Tseng. Tseng is skewered by Sephiroth and left for dead by almost everybody, and then he's also kidnapped and tortured. He is so screwed up. They do have a tendency to bounce back, though. There's probably a TV Trope about that. They are, after all, fictional villains.

I know they're fictional, I'm not having a panic attack that they aren't tried for war crimes. None of those things seem to have an actual impact, though, the only one that was ever hit where it hurts was Veld, when he bombed his own hometown.

I agree Reeve is more dangerous than he looks, but not about the Turk connection, I doubt he'd trust people that have no real loyalty to him with stuff that important.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

No - I meant that in real life, they'd all be dead.

 

[Starling]

Sending them after Cloud can be considered stalling to keep them off the trail to where Jenova's remains really are, especially considering Rufus and the Turks were pretending they didn't have it.

Doesn't explain why they don't warn him. Like, at all.

They do get some retribution. Rude and Reno are beaten pretty comprehensively by Loz and Yazoo. They get their butts kicked numerous times by Avalanche. Elena is kidnapped and tortured and never gets to go on a date with Tseng. Tseng is skewered by Sephiroth and left for dead by almost everybody, and then he's also kidnapped and tortured. He is so screwed up. They do have a tendency to bounce back, though. There's probably a TV Trope about that. They are, after all, fictional villains.

I know they're fictional, I'm not having a panic attack that they aren't tried for war crimes. None of those things seem to have an actual impact, though, the only one that was ever hit where it hurts was Veld, when he bombed his own hometown.

I agree Reeve is more dangerous than he looks, but not about the Turk connection, I doubt he'd trust people that have no real loyalty to him with stuff that important.

Since Cloud doesn't pick up his phone, I don't see how they would've been able to. In any case, just because they're better people now doesn't mean they're not still a bunch of jerks at least some of the time. How else would Rufus maintain his magnificent bastard status?

Like I said, the situation everyone is in after the OG is all about rethinking what they've done to end up in that situation, picking up the pieces and starting from scratch. Everyone has a chance to at least try to atone as best they can, with former Shinra staff being among those who struggle the most with it, since not everyone is willing to forgive their role in the issue. But it's not a time to turn away help if offered, so more fighting isn't really a good idea.

 

[Clement Rage]

They contact Tifa offering him a job, which is substantially different from 'hi, three very dangerous people are gunning for you'.

Like I said, the situation everyone is in after the OG is all about rethinking what they've done to end up in that situation, picking up the pieces and starting from scratch. Everyone has a chance to at least try to atone as best they can, with former Shinra staff being among those who struggle the most with it, since not everyone is willing to forgive their role in the issue. But it's not a time to turn away help if offered, so more fighting isn't really a good idea.

All true, but we don't really see that.

 

[Roger]

Getting back on topiv, if they change the dialogue to them trying to redeem themselves in the end of the game instead of "shinra is finished, no reason to fight you anymore." with no implication they wouldn't drop all six other plates if a President Shinra was still around to ask them too, then I wouldn't mind it.

 

[Pixel]

There's a little bit in the church that shows Reno as more sympathetic, but is lost in the translation. When he orders the troops to shoot at Aerith. In the translation, he just shouts "Fire! Fire! Fire!"

But in the Japanese, he realises he got carried away and doesn't want them to kill her
古代種が逃げるぞ！撃て、撃て！　あ、撃つな！
Reno "The Ancient's gettin' away! Fire, fire! Oh, no, hold your fire!"

It shows more of that bungling side, rather than just ruthless.

 

[Stryfe]

There's a little bit in the church that shows Reno as more sympathetic, but is lost in the translation. When he orders the troops to shoot at Aerith. In the translation, he just shouts "Fire! Fire! Fire!"

But in the Japanese, he realises he got carried away and doesn't want them to kill her
古代種が逃げるぞ！撃て、撃て！　あ、撃つな！
Reno "The Ancient's gettin' away! Fire, fire! Oh, no, hold your fire!"

It shows more of that bungling side, rather than just ruthless.

It's stuff like this that makes me wish localization teams for Japanese-English translated games would focus more on actually translating meanings rather than just words. I think they've generally gotten better at it since 1997, but a lot of them still focus on creating translations that "just work" instead of translations that actually capture the original meaning (at least as closely as possible between Japanese and English).

That being said, I also found the transition between the Turks of FF7 and the Turks of ACC to be a bit strange. I think a few more simple line changes and adjustments (on the same small scale as the Pixel's example above, but placed all throughout the game) would be enough to smooth out that seemingly abrupt character change.

 

[Starling]

I don't translate much but when I do, I try to keep in mind the multiple meanings of what's being said and try to reach the best compromise with it, even if I have to use a different word than the direct equivalent in order to do so.

 

[Pixel]

The translation portrays a lot of the characterisations wrong here and there, ranging from little word choices to actual story points. Like, on the slide, Aerith calls Zack her first boyfriend, and says they were dating, but not serious. Whereas in the Japanese, script, it's

Ａ：初めて好きになった人
Aerith "The first person I fell in love with.
Ｃ：･･････つきあってた？
Cloud "...You were dating?"
Ａ：そんなんじゃないの。　ちょっと、いいなって思ってた
Aerith "Not really. I just thought he was really nice."
Ｃ：もしかしたら知ってるかもしれないな。　そいつの名前は？
Cloud "Well, maybe I knew him. What's his name?
Ａ：もう、いいの
Aerith "It doesn't matter now."

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

I don't think they need to be made more sympathetic, simply because I don't think they're unsympathetic to begin with. They're just your typical punch clock villains: everyday people that commit immoral deeds simply because it's their job, and not because they're evil.

 

[Stryfe]

You know honestly, I never looked at it that way, but I think it's a very accurate description of the Turks. It also explains why they are significantly less malicious in AC/ACC, when there isn't really much of a Shinra corporation left. Their moral alignment as turks is ultimately just a mimic of Shinra's goals, for better or worse.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

I think there's plenty of examples in the game that show how the Turks aren't evil monsters and are just everyday people like you and me, albeit with less qualms about having to commit shady deeds then most people would have. To give a few:

There's the scene in Gongaga where Reno and Rude (but mostly Reno) are gossiping about relationships and who likes whom, showing that yes, even the guys who do Shinra's dirty work engage in friendly banter and silly gossip with each other.

There's the times you encounter them off duty getting some R&R in bars and such, where they(except Elena at first, but Reno talks some sense into her) refuse to pursue your party because they're off duty, showing that it's nothing personal for them and merely a job.

And of course there's the Wutai sequence, where they help they party rescure Elena and Yuffie from Corneo, and afterwards decide they're off duty and let the party go about their business. Reno and Rude even say they went through the trouble of teaming up with Cloud and co. to get Corneo because it's they're job.

So yeah, the original game makes it abundantly clear that the Turks are just punch clock villains, and not actually evil people. That's why they're on better terms with the party after the OG, since it's no longer their job to oppose the party, they have no reason to bear any feelings of adversity towards them.(not that they[especially Reno and Rude] ever really did in the first place, except maybe Elena after Tseng was wounded, which even then just shows that she's a human being who cares about her comrades)

 

[Clement Rage]

The one consistent trait the Turks have across all depictions is pride. They don't like being seen to screw up, they don't want the army to act without their input or get credit for their actions, Heidegger isn't an acceptable boss because he 'doesn't care about the Turks.' They say things like 'That's the will and spirit of the Turks' 'Is this how a professional should act?' When Reno is made look stupid at Sector 7, his first thought is revenge.
If the means of maintaining Turk pride is to rescue kittens, they'll do it. If it's burning down an orphanage, they'll do it.

I think the whole 'punch clock villains, therefore sympathetic' viewpoint takes a hit when you remember that their job description is generally 'all the stuff that's too evil for everyone else.'

They do human stuff too, but everyone does. We don't get to see Heidegger and Scarlet out drinking, maybe they're nice to the barman too.

Don't forget, AC has them painting a giant target on Cloud's back on purpose.

I actually prefer the English translations in both of those.

 

[Tashasaurous]

The one consistent trait the Turks have across all depictions is pride. They don't like being seen to screw up, they don't want the army to act without their input or get credit for their actions, Heidegger isn't an acceptable boss because he 'doesn't care about the Turks.' They say things like 'That's the will and spirit of the Turks' 'Is this how a professional should act?' When Reno is made look stupid at Sector 7, his first thought is revenge.
If the means of maintaining Turk pride is to rescue kittens, they'll do it. If it's burning down an orphanage, they'll do it.

I think the whole 'punch clock villains, therefore sympathetic' viewpoint takes a hit when you remember that their job description is generally 'all the stuff that's too evil for everyone else.'

They do human stuff too, but everyone does. We don't get to see Heidegger and Scarlet out drinking, maybe they're nice to the barman too.

Don't forget, AC has them painting a giant target on Cloud's back on purpose.

I actually prefer the English translations in both of those.

Please, the Turks are much more nicer than Heidegger and Scarlet anyday. The reason they're not allowed to show emotion because otherwise they can't do their job, but when not working and finding a way to calm themselves down, they can show some emotion towards each other.

Reno was looking for revenge because he was probably still furious over the original AVALANCHE(mainly Fuhito) and didn't hesitate on fighting against Cloud's group until he slowly began to realise that Cloud's group's goal is much different compared to the other AVALANCHE who took away much of his 'family', leaving him with only Tseng and Rude and having added Elena.

That's my view at least.

All of the Turks see Veld as a father to them.

Plus, all Heidegger and Scarlet cared about was power and money, so they would gladly kill anyone cold hearted. Personaly, they were probably very pleased when they thought Rufus was killed and thought it was their chance to rule Midgar and execute anyone without care. Hojo practically just wanted to make his experiments come true and probably even hated humanity and thought he was the only 'true' human.

I prefer the English translations of FFVII too.

 

[Clement Rage]

I'm not actually claiming that Scarlet's nice, just that she might look it if you met her for five minutes at a bar. I could easily spin the Turks not wanting to fight those times as trying to save face while avoiding confronting people that have already proved they can kick your ass without difficulty.

 

[SotP]

turks must be rude and cool, I would like them coldhearted

 

[SotP]

sympathie comes anyway

 

[Random Nobody]

I don't think they need to be made more sympathetic, simply because I don't think they're unsympathetic to begin with. They're just your typical punch clock villains: everyday people that commit immoral deeds simply because it's their job, and not because they're evil.

What is the distinction here? I mean, I'm going to say that if you commit immoral deeds purely for compensation, you and your actions are no less "evil" or repugnant than they would be if committed by a dedicated moustache twirler. Really, they might even be worse.