Significant Differences Between English and Japanese

[Obsidian Fire]

I've heard the use of the "royal we" being suggested for Sephiroth. And it's like... given that Jenova has a "hive mind"-like quality to her (and everyone else with her cells), it would work pretty well all things considered.

 

[ForceStealer]

I find it fascinating how we lost nuance within English for the second person. "Thou" being informal, and "you" being formal/plural. So you get stuff in old letters or in Shakespeare and stuff where you can get an indication of in what capacity one person is talking to another depending on how they switch between "you" and "thou" for the same person even in the same conversation. And now we just...don't.

But as far as I know we never had anything on the scale of Japanese for the first person.
I think my issue with the royal we for Sephiroth is, well, he doesn't seem to consider himself one with Jenova after his first trip through the Lifestream, even though he is. He talks about "mother" constantly during his breakdown in Nibelheim and everything, but he never refers to her that way again. In AC/C he does say, "just as my mother did long ago," but that seems more a statement of fact than the breathless/desperate way he referred to her in Nibelheim, or the way the Remnants do.
(EDIT: Hm, although thinking on it, maybe that means exactly the opposite of what I thought I was saying, haha. That when he called her mother he thought they were separate, and now he doesn't because they're the same. Hm...)

 

[Dark and Divine]

I think my issue with the royal we for Sephiroth is, well, he doesn't seem to consider himself one with Jenova after his first trip through the Lifestream, even though he is. He talks about "mother" constantly during his breakdown in Nibelheim and everything, but he never refers to her that way again. In AC/C he does say, "just as my mother did long ago," but that seems more a statement of fact than the breathless/desperate way he referred to her in Nibelheim, or the way the Remnants do.
(EDIT: Hm, although thinking on it, maybe that means exactly the opposite of what I thought I was saying, haha. That when he called her mother he thought they were separate, and now he doesn't because they're the same. Hm...)

Another thing worth mentioning is that, in Nibelheim, Sephiroth uses the more personal and juvenile "okaa-san" when reffering to Jenova as "Mother".

While in AC(C), for instance, he uses the more formal and distant "Haha" to reffer to her.

 

[Eerie]

Well, okaa-san can be translated as "mum" and Haha as "mother" (I know at least the difference is roughly the same in French, you usually call your mother "maman" or even "m'man" but then you can combo "Mère + vous" and then it sounds like you're out of nobility class lol). It's true even in French we have the "we" for royals talking about themselves, and I wondered if that would fit, but I'm not sure. Maybe it would for when he feels grandiloquent lol.

 

[minami758]

One of the aspects of the Remake I'm interested in seeing them tackle is when Cloud resigns himself as a puppet to Sephiroth. In the OG Japanese he refers to Tifa as "Tifa-san" and himself/real!Cloud as "Cloud-kun," which were big gut punches. But that nuance was lost in the English due to the language not having honorifics (though I think they translated "Tifa-san" as "Miss Tifa," iirc). Curious to see how they'll go about that localization this time with voice acting and the like.

 

[ForceStealer]

Another thing worth mentioning is that, in Nibelheim, Sephiroth uses the more personal and juvenile "okaa-san" when reffering to Jenova as "Mother".

While in AC(C), for instance, he uses the more formal and distant "Haha" to reffer to her.

I thought this was precisely the opposite. I could absolutely be wrong, would not be surprised. But definitely thought okaasan was the more formal 'mother' and haha was 'mom'

 

[Yumelinh]

I thought this was precisely the opposite. I could absolutely be wrong, would not be surprised. But definitely thought okaasan was the more formal 'mother' and haha was 'mom'

As far as I know, Otou-San/okaa-San is the casual form, but it's still very polite? I'm not sure either

What I know is that Chichiue/Hahaue is the formal/very traditional form. I can't be 100% sure of this, but I remember Sesshoumaru from Inuyasha used to call his dad "Chichiue" which used to be read by the fandom as "very respectful but emotionally distant". It's not very used nowadays.

 

[odekopeko]

I think someone else can explain this better, but both 母-haha and おかあさん-okaasan are respectful terms. "Haha'' is more of a humble term?

(I call my mom, ママ-mama, though, so I'm not one to talk.)

I just want to add that it usually depends on who I'm speaking to. I may be forced to use "haha" when speaking about my mother to someone else, even if I normally call her okaasan amongst family.

It seems a bit complicated, but it changes depends on who I'm conversating with? I just know it, but not sure how to explain it in a way that makes sense.

 

[Odysseus]

I'm not entirely convinced that stuff like that doesn't exist in English at all, but I'm sure most people wouldn't write their characters like that. If I'm talking about one of my friends with a mutual, I might say something like "That fuck boy John" or something, but like in an endearing way, and when talking to a stranger I might just say "my friend John." Obviously not quite the same as an honorific, but the ironic disparaging way of referral implies a level of familiarity that the more normal way doesn't.

For Sephiroth, if they wanted to imply a juvenile, childish attachment to Jenova, they might have him call her "mommy," "mama" or something, where "mother" comes across more distant and respectful. His choice of personal pronoun is harder to translate though.

The issue is that having Cloud and Co be rampant assholes to each other the whole time because they're friends would probably get annoying and not paint the characters in the best light (It's mostly just saved for Cloud and Barret in the remake,) and having Sephiroth use baby language would be plain silly, so the English version tends to persist in a more neutral zone where the characters don't look stupid.

 

[looneymoon]

^ complete aside on casual ribbing

Oh man... that reminds me of this movie I watched recently. The main girl character would employ a very liberal, but inappropriate, use of the word "fuck boy" at the main character. Every time it happened, my SO and I would turn to each other and and say "I don't think this writer knows how to use this term properly." Then later on, a different character calls him that, to which the main character responds "what does that even mean!?" It... kinda confirmed our suspicion tbh. It really came across like an out-of-touch Gen X-er was trying to grapple with language used by the youth.

I mean, it eventually happens to everyones, so we were almost sympathetic at first. That is until we looked up the guy afterwards and saw his antics in response to his film's poor reception

...Anyways, I guess the point is that it's already difficult to pull off even in an original/non translated script. FF7 remake was pretty good about the jabs, at least in a way that will probably age a bit better than the OG's translation in some respects. We aren't in the era of Tifa getting away with no-no words while climbing up a flight of stairs

 

[tobakudan]

My take on ranking of ways to refer to your mother in Japanese from most casual to most formal

mama > kaachan > kaasan > okaasan > ofukuro > haha > hahaue/okaasama

 

[Odysseus]

^ complete aside on casual ribbing

Oh man... that reminds me of this movie I watched recently. The main girl character would employ a very liberal, but inappropriate, use of the word "fuck boy" at the main character. Every time it happened, my SO and I would turn to each other and and say "I don't think this writer knows how to use this term properly." Then later on, a different character calls him that, to which the main character responds "what does that even mean!?" It... kinda confirmed our suspicion tbh. It really came across an out-of-touch Gen X-er trying to grapple with language used by the youth.

I mean, it eventually happens to everyones, so we were almost sympathetic at first. That is until we looked up the guy afterwards and saw his antics in response to his film's poor reception

...Anyways, I guess the point is that it's already difficult to pull off even in an original/non translated script. FF7 remake was pretty good about the jabs, at least in a way that will probably age a bit better than the OG's translation in some respects. We aren't in the era of Tifa getting away with no-no words while climbing up a flight of stairs

If it wasn't apparent already, I just kinda... say things... without much regard to how they come across. In real life I persist in this bizzaro hell-state where I barely say anything nice to any of my friends, I'm usually just a giant asshole, but we're all operating on what must be the highest level of irony so everyone just finds the abhorrent shit I say hilarious instead of horrible or offensive. This isn't just me justifying my behavior, I've had plenty of down to earth conversations about if I'm going to far but it's just cool with everyone. It's so dang weird. I try not to act like that here because I doubt it'd go over so well.

To drag this back on topic, I can see why such a dynamic would be impossible to write for, especially in a localization, so I doubt they'd ever go for it. I just can't think of better ways to maintain the level of nuance that is just inherent to the Japanese language. Even what few honorifics we do have have fallen out of fashion for the most part. I certainly don't here people say "Mister" or "Missus" much these days. The nuance in English comes much more from tone-of-voice than word choice.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

When translating, you want to be careful not to use slang that will very quickly date. A script written today by yoof using all their slang would sound like a quaint historical document in five years' time. Also, English usage varies hugely from one part of the world to another, and on top of that you have lots of EFL gamers playing in English.

I really enjoy the old fashioned English (as in England) colloquialisms used in the Dragon Quest localisations - "crikey", "what a pickle", "let's have a snifter" etc... - and the mockney accents; I appreciate it's done deliberately to give DQ a particular kind of atmosphere.

I had a friend once with whom the discourse was in the "ironic insults because we love each other" mode.... until the insults started to feel real....

I thought はは was for your own mother, whereas おかあさん could refer to your own or someone else's mother. Is "mama" an indigenous Japanese word or a loan word?

 

[looneymoon]

Sephiroth, after setting fire to Nibelheim

"shit's lit fam"

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

There was a bit of an issue on twitter recently because apparently a section of English speaking users like to praise things by saying, "This is the shit" or "This kills me," and the Japanese posters thought people were saying their art was terrible.

 

[tobakudan]

はは can refer to other people's mothers too. ママ is a loan word but is ubiquitous by now.

 

[Odysseus]

There was a bit of an issue on twitter recently because apparently a section of English speaking users like to praise things by saying, "This is the shit" or "This kills me," and the Japanese posters thought people were saying their art was terrible.

There's an incredible gag comic strip in here somewhere

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I used to hate twitter. I like it now because I follow a lot of Japanese fan-artists and it's the one place I can interact with them. We have quite a few discussions about differences between Japanese and English-speaking approaches to fandom (to be specific, the TsengxRufus fandom. We are small but friendly). I was able to explain to them the nuances of English-localisation Rufus saying, "Naughty, naughty." I was quite pleased with that.

 

[Purple]

I think the problem lies in that some fans want a literal translation but what’s better and more apt is a localization. Some of the complaints on Twitter makes me want to scratch my head. Case in point: some fans are legit upset Cloud says Tifa’s name less in the EN version compared to the JP version

English speakers would normally use “hey” or “guys” or “you” rather than say one’s name outright all the time, which is different from Japanese right?

I’m not trying to bring down the mood but it’s just silly that some fans are acting like the whole EN localization is subpar when people actually worked really hard for it. Anyway I digress

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

By "some fans" do we mean Cloti and Clerith, counting the number of mentions of each girl's name, because the one whose name is mentioned most often is the most loved?

 

[Eerie]

I just want to add that it usually depends on who I'm speaking to. I may be forced to use "haha" when speaking about my mother to someone else, even if I normally call her okaasan amongst family.

I understand what you say, because unless they are kids, French people will call their mother "maman" to her, and "ma mère" when talking about her to somebody else. I never had the thought until you mentioned it lol.

 

[Purple]

By "some fans" do we mean Cloti and Clerith, counting the number of mentions of each girl's name, because the one whose name is mentioned most often is the most loved?

Lmao, you know it

I was just like oof, the script was good, what is this

 

[odekopeko]

And oof I think I know, and I contributed! Personally, I wanted a little more out of Cody's performance, but it was a tiny complaint about his voice acting in certain parts. Nothing to do with the script & even then I think he did a great job overall. /reflecting

 

[kathy202]

I think the problem lies in that some fans want a literal translation but what’s better and more apt is a localization.

Sometimes I wonder if people really know what they want, or just think they want it. Does anyone actually want another "dilly dally, shilly shally"? Or Reno ending all his lines with "yo" (okay, maybe some fanfic writers like it better this way, but I can't imagine those lines actually being spoken)?

That's not to say that all literal translations are awful, but I think it's going to be hard to avoid sounding awkward or cheesy at some point.

 

[atfour]

Oh but they could actually do something with personal pronoun stuff for Sephiroth, albeit in a more roundabout way. Granted, this English localisation started everything from scratch judging by them sweeping original compilation terms under the rug. The game actually had flashback Sephiroth's words in it, so they could change his manner of speech to at least try to build this fragile connection with EoC Sephiroth, but they didn't. And that puts to question whether localisation staff had even been aware of such plot nuance
(and whether they knew that there were references in the stuff they plainly renamed). If not, it's unsettling to think what other things we could've missed.