SPOILERS So let's say that [spoiler] was really alive...

[Odysseus]

In the event that au survival Zack ended up in the same world as the main remake story, should there not also be a second Cloud?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Wait, Zack dying is the Uncle Ben of FF7? I'm not sure about that -- I remember playing the OG and barely caring at all about Zack. Clearly he is important to Cloud's story, but in the OG it was in an oddly detached way. He's a SOLDIER that Cloud tries to emulate. (Unlike Uncle Ben, who served as the emotional motivation for Peter to actually become Spider-Man.)

Now, if we're also talking Crisis Core (as I think you are) then they did seem to try and flesh out the whole Zack and Cloud relationship and his death, for sure. Even then, though, it still feels as if his death isn't -quite- as big a thing as Uncle Ben. Cloud borrows part of his identity (with a personality that is not really much like Zack aside from cockiness), but does Zack need to be dead for this to happen? Zack could have been somewhere else, still presumed missing, and Cloud can still get away with his usual stuff.

Zack provides Cloud's escape from Shin-Ra and survival in the wilderness; the Buster Sword and SOLDIER 1st Class uniform needed to "confirm" Cloud's false identity; memories and personality traits incorporated into Cloud's composite personality (and which catch Aerith's attention/interest) -- and perhaps most importantly for Cloud's story post-original game, his inspiration/motivation for day-to-day life.

Zack is of utmost importance to the whole story and franchise. It just doesn't exist as we know it without Uncle Zack, including his death.

Personally, this is why I’m leaning less in the direction of “Into the Cloudo-Verse” idea of multiple worlds existing simultaneously with alternate versions of the same people and more in the direction of a “Clouds;Gate” idea where only one world exists at a time but can be rewritten.

But does that fit with the alternate version of Stamp, whose creation would need to pre-date Zack's battle with the Shin-Ra troops?

I think there’s more consequences that way if it actually is this world’s version of Zack instead of just another Zack pulled in from an alternate dimension.

I get this sentiment, and agree with it, but I really don't think that's the direction we're going (again: Stamp). But they may well provide plenty of poignancy we just haven't yet anticipated via this AU Zack.

 

[KindOfBlue]

(Unlike Uncle Ben, who served as the emotional motivation for Peter to actually become Spider-Man.)

If we’re talking motivation, I guess Tifa would be the one who serves that role but as far as guilt over death that he carrries with him, maybe Zack would be Uncle Ben and Aerith would be Gwen Stacy

Zack could have been somewhere else, still presumed missing, and Cloud can still get away with his usual stuff.

The problem is that if Zack is off somewhere else, what is he doing?

I feel like Zack being alive in the remake would be a perfect time to address this

But does that fit with the alternate version of Stamp, whose creation would need to pre-date Zack's battle with the Shin-Ra troops?

I think it’s possible depending on whether or not the Whispers changed more than just Zack’s fate. In either scenario, I think something in the past must have changed that caused the Stamp logo to also change.

 

[Roundhouse]

Twilight:

You're correct -- Zack is absolutely a vital part of the story. My question is more 'is his death an essential part?'. Nearly everything you listed about the associations with Zack can be done even if he's still alive, and presumed dead.

 

[Odysseus]

Makes the whole "living legacy" angle a little weird if he isn't dead, anyway.

 

[Makoeyes987]

It is extremely, extremely, telegraphed that we have entered multiple worlds/timelines/universes based on the context specifically given in the Ultimania and the key plot point regarding a new version of Stamp never before seen until the ending.

I mean we discussed this for like 3 weeks when the game came out and was beaten.

The creators went through very specific intentions to make sure that Stamp which is a terrier was never ever seen before in the game until that ending. Even the scene where Biggs, Wedge and Jessie are eating with Jessie's Mom, there's a bag of chips on the table. And guess what?

They're the original Stamp that's a beagle. That terrier Stamp is not the Stamp of the original world. Something happened and there are two Clouds and a living Zack and one who died. They are separated by dimensions, however.

In Cloud's continuity, Zack is dead. But killing the Arbiters of Fate seemingly fractured the past and made a timeline, world or whatever that is quite different. Hell, we don't even know what exists in AU Zack's Midgar. He could go to Aerith's house and find Shadow Creepers devouring Elmyra's corpse. Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo could be popping wheelies in Sector 8. We do not know what could've happened as a consequence of Cloud and the others axing the Planet's protection of its history. Sephiroth may have wanted that all along.

The fact there are two Clouds, two Stamps, and a hard paradox shows the past wasn't just cleanly changed. If it were, Cloud wouldn't be carrying the Buster Sword ready to proceed with FFVII and pursue Sephiroth.

There's a reason why Marvel never changed (or relegated it to What if stories) Uncle Ben's fate for decades -- they knew it was too important an event to risk screwing with via time-travel/alternate fate shenanigans.

But they have temporarily revived him with Doctor Strange. And Zack potentially being alive temporarily in an AU timeline is no different than an AU Uncle Ben who is seen to be Spiderman in his universe. That's what I think is likely going on with this Zack. This is not "real" for the main continuity belonging to Cloud. If it were, Cloud would not exist as we know him.

 

[KindOfBlue]

If it were, Cloud wouldn't be carrying the Buster Sword ready to proceed with FFVII and pursue Sephiroth.

The reason I can’t go all-in on the two Clouds thing just yet is because I think it’s possible that Cloud could have ended up with the Buster Sword even with Zack surviving depending on what exactly happened afterwards

 

[Makoeyes987]

That contorts FFVII's core tenets and chronology regarding it's brand. They're not undoing that. They're not going to hard undo Crisis Core's ending, FFVII's core themes, or history regarding Cloud being Cloud. They just aren't going to do that. That would genuinely shock and surprise me, among other feelings.

They (the creators) are not afraid of playing with AUs and alt timelines. They do it a lot, in fact. I think that is far more likely than hard re-writing the past. And it gives them the freedom to explore things outside the safety of the FFVII narrative without demolishing it with quantum TNT.

 

[KindOfBlue]

That contorts FFVII's core tenets and chronology regarding it's brand. They're not undoing that. They're not going to hard undo Crisis Core's ending, FFVII's core themes, or history regarding Cloud being Cloud. They just aren't going to do that. That would genuinely shock and surprise me, among other feelings.

They (the creators) are not afraid of playing with AUs and alt timelines. They do it a lot, in fact. I think that is far more likely than hard re-writing the past. And it gives them the freedom to explore things outside the safety of the FFVII narrative without demolishing it with quantum TNT.

Though there’s a chance I could be wrong, that’s why I’m not too worried about Zack being alive at the moment. The story seems to treat his survival as enough of an anomaly for me to think he’ll either die again or his original death will be re-reversed.

 

[Makoeyes987]

That's what I think the end result will ultimately be.

 

[Torrie]

First thing he'd do is go to Aeris' house, find her gone...and then... what?

Erm, I don't see how he can possibly find Aerith gone, because his survival originally takes place a couple of months before everything starts. But I agree, seeing Aerith wherever she is would be his top priority. Buuut... how is he supposed to sneak into the city if the gates in the slums are locked? There must be a way.

 

[looneymoon]

It isn't Zack we are seeing in the ending, it's actually Chrono. He just looks like Zack, for... reasons.

He heading to Midgar to shack up with his (literal) old lady

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Marle is also the name of Leslie's girlfriend...
Is she trapped in a time loop as well?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Erm, I don't see how he can possibly find Aerith gone, because his survival originally takes place a couple of months before everything starts. But I agree, seeing Aerith wherever she is would be his top priority. Buuut... how is he supposed to sneak into the city if the gates in the slums are locked? There must be a way.

Cloud got in despite his condition, so it must not be all that difficult.

 

[Clement Rage]

I agree, but if he popped back into existence when the Whispers were defeated there's a chance. Although if everything they interfered with is now undone, Barret suddenly grows an impaling wound, so it's difficult to theorise.

Damn linear progression of time. So what happens then, the Turks pick him up and stash him somewhere?

 

[Roundhouse]

It's intriguing how opinions differ on this, haha. Most people I have come across believe that Zack is alive in the same timeline as the current events. I originally figured that it was an alternate timeline scenario, but now I'm not sure. If he really is alive in the same timeline as our Cloud and co, things are going to get very....complicated.

 

[Makoeyes987]

If Zack is in the same timeline as the original Cloud and the others, that means there's also another Cloud as well because Zack's carrying him.

So there's now two Clouds in the same universe, going opposite directions, with one Cloud being comatose and carried by a guy who was previously dead and passing by the other Cloud who's carrying his sword that was bequeathed to him at his previous death.

And they just didn't see each other? That.. Wouldn't just be messy but completely unbelievable. The scene was clearly meant to be conveyed across time and space, not literally in the same spot in their realities, otherwise there's something very wrong with everyone involved here. To just... walk past such glaringly obvious weirdness.

 

[Edley]

In terms of plot, my guess is he'll be the wild card to Sephiroth's destiny denying shenanigans. It doesn't make a lot of sense for Zack to be introduced just to hang out in his verse and never cross over, so I do believe there will be a reunion at some point. Obviously lots of ways he could make an impact, but timing wise it would be easier to swallow in the endgame.

Gameplay, I really dug in VIII where they took a break from Squall to let you play as Laguna and co. I don't know if SE has enough bandwidth for it, but AU missions with Zack would be fun. But yeah, the Cloud from the end of the game can't interact with Zack until after the lifestream sequence without some major alterations to the plot that wouldn't serve anybody.

 

[KindOfBlue]

The scene was clearly meant to be conveyed across time and space, not literally in the same spot in their realities,

That’s why I’m a bit less likely to jump on the “2 Clouds 2 Furious” train just yet. Maybe I just prefer the least complicated explanations possible and for me, it makes sense that it was symbolic. Not that Zack carrying Cloud is symbolic itself, but that the symbolism is in how it appears to happen at the same time as Cloud leaving Midgar which logically makes no sense. Zack carrying Cloud took place months earlier, but we’re seeing it now because our actions in the present allowed that moment to become a fact of the past...I think.

But yeah, the Cloud from the end of the game can't interact with Zack until after the lifestream sequence without some major alterations to the plot that wouldn't serve anybody.

Although, Cloud did see Zack before the Lifestream during Sephiroth’s illusion before he gave up the black materia. He just didn’t recognize him until the Lifestream but I don’t think having Cloud be confused by Zack’s presence beforehand would be too outside of what we’ve already seen.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

That’s why I’m a bit less likely to jump on the “2 Clouds 2 Furious” train just yet. Maybe I just prefer the least complicated explanations possible and for me, it makes sense that it was symbolic. Not that Zack carrying Cloud is symbolic itself, but that the symbolism is in how it appears to happen at the same time as Cloud leaving Midgar which logically makes no sense. Zack carrying Cloud took place months earlier, but we’re seeing it now because our actions in the present allowed that moment to become a fact of the past...I think.

I get considering this, because I did as well. However, there's the matter of the Whisper dome around Midgar disappearing when it does relative to both Zack and Avalanche, and then the moment they "cross paths" relative to the passage of time from that moment when the dome came down -- i.e. it just happened moments prior for both parties.

An intersection of out-of-sync timelines then is the less complicated explanation you're seeking, especially when Stamp gets factored in. The dome exploding when it does for Zack certainly isn't symbolism: he was literally knocked to the ground by the shockwave, even coming from a couple of miles away.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I get considering this, because I did as well. However, there's the matter of the Whisper dome around Midgar disappearing when it does relative to both Zack and Avalanche, and then the moment they "cross paths" relative to the passage of time from that moment when the dome came down -- i.e. it just happened moments prior for both parties.

An intersection of out-of-sync timelines then is the less complicated explanation you're seeking, especially when Stamp gets factored in. The dome exploding when it does for Zack certainly isn't symbolism: he was literally knocked to the ground by the shockwave, even coming from a couple of miles away.

Given the Whispers’ role in preserving fate, I feel like at the time of Zack’s death they were probably already aware that something in the future was attempting to interfere with destiny, hence why they appear so heavily during that scene. Once the Whispers are defeated in the future, their influence throughout the past, present, and future becomes nullified. Which could then mean that not only are events of the future not tied to fate, but that the events of the past are also free of being predetermined like Zack, Biggs, and Stamp. The “crossing paths” moment specifically is what I consider symbolic, since Zack and Cloud couldn’t literally pass through Cloud and the gang at the same time unless if it actually did turn out to be two intersecting timelines. As for the explosion, I didn’t think that was symbolic, I just saw it as a result of the Whispers being defeated across time and space.

 

[Torrie]

Cloud got in despite his condition, so it must not be all that difficult.

Ah, true, I didn't think about that. Perhaps the gates were locked after Shinra was officially after Avalanche, in order not to let them escape in whatever direction. But it's just my assumption.

not only are events of the future not tied to fate, but that the events of the past are also free of being predetermined like Zack, Biggs, and Stamp

Stamp is a very curious case. He is a brand new character, so I don't think he had been altered by the Whispers before he appeared in Zack's scene, because he was absent in the OG in the first place. But I like all those comments and predictions on the idea that Stamp represents Zack in a way. I mean, these two lil doggos below. The poster speaks volumes, doesn't it?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Why does the Whispers' influence through the past become nullified?
I don't really understand that bit.
I can see how they are no longer around to control the flow of events moving forwards, but why should all their past effects be erased as if they never were?
And why do they only interfere with the story of FFVII? Their world is full of people, both those who came before Cloud and those contemporaneous with him. Why aren't the Whispers also interfering in their stories? If the job of the Whispers is to protect the planet, why didn't they push Lucretia off a cliff before she got pregnant? Why didn't they prevent Shinra from finding and unearthing Jenova? If their job is to keep the plot of the OG on the straight and narrow, then they're breaking the 4th wall in a way that is really annoying.

 

[KindOfBlue]

He is a brand new character, so I don't think he had been altered by the Whispers before he appeared in Zack's scene, because he was absent in the OG in the first place.

From our meta perspective, sure, but I think in-universe we’d have to accept that Stamp was already part of the world. Maybe them showing us a new Stamp has less to do with Stamp himself being important to the story and more to do with showing the audience a result of the butterfly effect. Who knows what else might be different now that the Whispers aren’t around to guarantee certain events happen as they’re meant to?

but why should all their past effects be erased as if they never were?

I actually think there’s a chance that some of the things caused by the Whispers may have still occurred even without their interference, but for now that’s to be determined. In a way, it’s just like the future of the remake itself: there’s a chance that some things may occur as we know, it’s just that now they don’t have to happen even if they do anyways.

And why do they only interfere with the story of FFVII? Their world is full of people, both those who came before Cloud and those contemporaneous with him. Why aren't the Whispers also interfering in their stories?

For all we know, the Whispers are guiding every single person’s life without them knowing since they’re not visible to most people and they only seem to be aggressive when somebody is actively working against them either willingly or unwillingly. Since Cloud’s the main character though, we probably won’t see how the Whispers may have interfered with others unless it’s relevant to the plot.

If the job of the Whispers is to protect the planet, why didn't they push Lucretia off a cliff before she got pregnant? Why didn't they prevent Shinra from finding and unearthing Jenova?

Presumably because the Whispers are protecting the will of the planet. It’s the planet’s will that those events happen, so the Whispers must ensure those events occur as they’re supposed to. If it’s true that humanity ceases to exist 500 years later, I think it can be assumed that everything leading up to humanity’s extinction must occur according to how it was destined to occur (in other words, according to the events of the OG).

Of course, I’m only about 40% sure of everything I’ve said in this thread, another 40% sure I’m completely wrong, and 20% sure this is all one big Jenova-induced acid trip.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

For better or for worse, the best summation we get of what the Whispers are in-game is the enemy profiles of Whispers Rubrum, Viridi, and Croceo. It links them up to beings from the future who are trying to keep the present as it was in the OG so they will later exist... and the Ultimania links those specific Whispers up with Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo. So I get the feeling the Whispers are less about enforcing the Will of the Planet, and more about keeping events going the same way so who they become in the future will exist. Which... aren't exactly the same thing.

For all we know, the Planet is okay with events getting redone, but the new beings who will exist in the future have to go somewhere (get unmade?), and they'd really like to exist even if the Planet itself doesn't care. Which is pure speculation, but it sounds as valid as anything other theory I've seen when it comes to fitting ideas to the very little information we do have.

Currently, nothing we've seen in Remake suggest that the Whispers could oh... show up in flashbacks to things that have already happened. For the present to come about, certain things in the past have to happen. And for all we know, the Whispers could have played a part in keeping those things "on track" as it were. We really don't know a lot of the "limits" of the Whispers at the moment. And the sooner we get some info on that, the better.

What makes me think we aren't necessarily done with the Whispers as entities is that "What are the Whispers and what do they do?" is one of the big mysteries going forwards according to the Ultimania. Needing to know what the Whispers do exactly if we already killed them all and they aren't affecting things anymore doesn't make a whole long lot sense from a narrative position. Unless it's like... a very short answer. Which kinda flies in the face of it being one of the mysteries SE has singled out as being really important going forward. So as much as I wish we could leave the Whispers and their shenanigans behind, I don't think we've seen the last of them.