SPOILERS So let's say that [spoiler] was really alive...

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I know we had this discussion way back when but I CBA with it then.
Since Loz, Kadaj and Yazoo are manifestations of aspects of Sephiroth, does that mean the Whispers are, too?
I just don't see why The Planet would want to go through all this bullshit when it could simply have prevented Sephiroth being born in the first place - and President Shinra too, for that matter
Unless it needs Sephiroth in order to rid itself of Jenova once and for all?
But even at the end of the Compilation, bits of Jenova are still active on the Planet - in Cloud, in Lucrecia, who isn't dead, and in Genesis, for three.

When the truth is finally revealed, it'll be entirely symbolic, not logical.

 

[Clement Rage]

We're trying to solve a puzzle that has too many pieces missing, we won't know until at least part 2.

Ah, time travel. So many possibilities. Possibly the OG was the good timeline, where Jenova, Mako reactors, and Shinra all end up shut down.

I'm curious about the why the Whispers influenced some Shinra graphic designer to change their design. If ever there was a butterfly effect, that would be it.

Once the Whispers are defeated in the future, their influence throughout the past, present, and future becomes nullified.

If that's true, then Barret drops dead.

Needing to know what the Whispers do exactly if we already killed them all and they aren't affecting things anymore doesn't make a whole long lot sense from a narrative position

It does if it turns out they were doing something very important that they're now not doing and the gang have to step up to keep the timeline on track. That's what I'm hoping for going forward.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

If that's true, then Barret drops dead.

Him, Reno, probably Rude, most of the rest of the party escaping from Midgar (the Whispers protected them from that imploding overpass and the helicopter that Cloud accidentally dropped on them) -- there's just no way to nullify all the results they've already effected.

Maybe one could make a handwavey case for anyone who entered the singularity coming out unaffected, but Reno should still be dead now, and I really doubt we can expect that.

Would Hojo then remember going on to tell Cloud about the Sephiroth Copy Experiment uninterrupted while Cloud remembers nothing of that?

Hell, the fall of Sector 7 would presumably have even been prevented if not for the Whispers protecting Rude from Barret's gunfire. There's just too much to be undone if anything and everything the Whispers ever did is supposed to have been negated.

There's no way all that's less complicated than just saying "anything they would have influenced beyond the present moment -- whatever that moment happens to be; your timeline may vary -- can now happen differently."

 

[KindOfBlue]

So as much as I wish we could leave the Whispers and their shenanigans behind, I don't think we've seen the last of them.

Something tells me they’ll somehow be connected to the Weapons later on

If that's true, then Barret drops dead.

That’s only if Sephiroth still kills him in this new version of history (which in itself was a deviation from the OG) and shouldn’t he still be dead regardless of which theory you subscribe to? If there actually are two Barrets, just as there might be two Clouds, two Zacks etc. shouldn’t “our” Barret be the one who dies? Not that I would recommend this sort of writing but they could also use an asspull to explain that the party was able to save him anyways unless they have some other explanation. Or, and this is left to be determined, it’s a plot hole.

Him, Reno, probably Rude, most of the rest of the party escaping from Midgar (the Whispers protected them from that imploding overpass and the helicopter that Cloud accidentally dropped on them) -- there's just no way to nullify all the results they've already effected.

But we’ve already seen how events play out without the Whispers through the OG, so we know it’s possible for the outcome of their fates to have still been the same even without their intervention, it’s just not guaranteed. If not for Sephiroth trying to change fate, there’d be no need for the Whispers in the first place, right?

 

[Odysseus]

You know, I used to be so gungho about theorizing earlier this year, but now I'm just like "Square is gonna do whatever they want and this speculation is fruitless." I dunno, all the theories I've seen surrounding Zack especially just don't seem like things that would ever actually happen.

 

[KindOfBlue]

"Square is gonna do whatever they want and this speculation is fruitless."

For as much theorizing as I’ve been doing in this thread, this is by far my strongest sentiment. I’m imagining different ways they could handle this but I’ve long accepted that we’ll have to to just wait and see. More than anything, I just like having people to chat about this stuff with now.

 

[Odysseus]

I just like having people to chat about this stuff with now.

Too true, internet forums are nice.

I don't see Zack getting brought to the present and joining the party, that just disrupts the story too much. A while back I speculated that we might get Laguna style dream sequences where we play as him without context as to who specifically he is, I personally feel like this would be the best approach. Maybe he joins up with Cloud at the very end for some new final battle like Mako was saying. All I know is that I don't WANT him to have a major bearing on the story, this isn't "2 Crisis 2 Core" after all.

 

[LNK]

A while back I speculated that we might get Laguna style dream sequences where we play as him without context as to who specifically he is, I personally feel like this would be the best approach.

That's what I think too. They can easily turn those flashback scenes, into playable parts.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

But we’ve already seen how events play out without the Whispers through the OG ...

Was the suggestion you posited not that Zack dies because of the Whispers, and that he then survives in FFVIIR because every moment of their influence throughout all of history was nullified?:

"Once the Whispers are defeated in the future, their influence throughout the past, present, and future becomes nullified. Which could then mean that not only are events of the future not tied to fate, but that the events of the past are also free of being predetermined like Zack, Biggs, and Stamp."

... so we know it’s possible for the outcome of their fates to have still been the same even without their intervention, it’s just not guaranteed.

There are moments in FFVIIR that would undoubtedly have gone very differently without the Whispers, though. Cloud wouldn't have even gone on the mission to reactor 5 -- and even supposing he somehow still did, Reno would have then been bisected and Rude would have been shot. But supposing even those things wouldn't have happened for whatever reason, and that Sector 7 still fell: Cloud would have remembered his identity too early (either in the underground labs or while talking with Hojo), the highway escape truck would have been destroyed more than once even if its occupants didn't die, etc.

These are moments that really cannot occur differently (i.e. more like the original) without the Whispers' interference.

If not for Sephiroth trying to change fate, there’d be no need for the Whispers in the first place, right?

I'm not sure that is the case. Most of the moments in which they intervene don't involve him.

 

[KindOfBlue]

and that he then survives in FFVIIR because every moment of their influence throughout all of history was nullified?:

Yes, but what I’m getting at speaks more to a broader conversation about free will versus predestination. I think if the Whispers are erased from the equation, there is still a chance that some events caused by the Whispers may have still occurred even without their intervention. Definitely not all, but some. Not that I would call it good writing per se, but it does put the writers in a convenient position where they can pick and choose what events they want to change in the past (like with Zack and Biggs) and in the future (to be determined).

These are moments that really cannot occur differently (i.e. more like the original) without the Whispers' interference.

Notice how this is only really true when it comes to events that are unique to the remake though, and even then it’s still possible that they either occur anyways, occur differently, or don’t occur at all. We’ve already seen a version of this story in which these events played out without the Whispers. For all we know, the butterfly effect of killing the Whispers may have indirectly prevented certain new events like the truck accident or Sephiroth stabbing Barret from even happening in the first place, which we already know did not happen in the OG.

I'm not sure that is the case. Most of the moments in which they intervene don't involve him.

Not directly, but when your role is the “arbiter of fate” I imagine you’ll want to leave no stone unturned as far as what’s supposed to happen. Every single moment from the major to the minor must occur exactly as it was meant to and if there were truly such a thing as “destiny”, there’d be no need to interfere, right? Just let things occur as they may, like in the OG. But since there’s a force actively working against destiny, it creates a situation in which the planet now has to actively defend itself from its very fate being interfered with.

What’s interesting to me here is that these are questions that may arise regardless of whether we’re dealing with two parallel timelines or one altered timeline. The fundamental question still remains either way: if defeating the Whispers saved Zack in the past, how come it doesn’t also kill everybody that the Whispers saved?

We can even take this even further: what if we were all assuming Zack was supposed to die because we know that’s what happened in the OG, but in fact the Whispers were actually trying to save him? I don’t actually believe this, of course, but what if that was the case?

 

[a_apple 2.0]

What’s interesting to me here is that these are questions that may arise regardless of whether we’re dealing with two parallel timelines or one altered timeline. The fundamental question still remains either way: if defeating the Whispers saved Zack in the past, how come it doesn’t also kill everybody that the Whispers saved?

We can even take this even further: what if we were all assuming Zack was supposed to die because we know that’s what happened in the OG, but in fact the Whispers were actually trying to save him? I don’t actually believe this, of course, but what if that was the case?

I saw another theory in one of these deep dive youtube videos, that the Whispers we saw surrounding Zack weren't there to make sure he died on that day but the opposite they were there to make sure he survived since Cloud and the others are now actively working against the planet because of Sephiroths manipulation so it has to look for new "chosen ones" who will play the role of the ff7 gang from the og. That's also the reason why the Whispers show themselves to Rufus to get him onboard.
(The team becoming enemies of the planet could also be a good excuse why Aerith isn't fed with information from the lifestream anymore aka no more future knowledge since the planet goes 'fuck you bitch, see how things will turn out for you nerds without my spoilers')

I mean the game is vague af about literally everything except for the purpose of the Whispers.

Whispers=EVERYTHING STAYS THE SAME BRO

So maybe that's a redherring? The only thing everyone got away from the game is that Whispers are there to keep things the same, that makes it possible to play around with expectation.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I like that, but I also don't.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

I like that, but I also don't.

I mean anyone who thinks the idea of the Whispers through must come to the conclusion that if Zack is suppose to be alive now, because the Whispers are defeated then that would also mean that literally everything would have to change, since Zack wasn't even "defying" fate the dude just did what he always does in that scene, so that would mean the Whispers presence was necessary to keep the og story line going in the first place. It's hard to believe that Nomura and Nojima weren't thinking at least this far ahead

I mean there is only so much you can explain away with 'jenova cells, son'

 

[KindOfBlue]

So maybe that's a redherring?

There’s so many opportunities for red herrings here that it’s exactly why I’m so eager to see what happens next. Sure, defying destiny seems like a noble goal, but it’s almost as if it’s just a ploy to give Sephiroth exactly what he wanted.

I like that, but I also don't.

The compilation in a nutshell tbh

 

[cold_spirit]

My thoughts on this topic change weekly, but here's what I've come up with so far.

First, why Zack is Back? Since Crisis Core his popularity has soared. If Remake closely followed the OG, then we'd only get genuine Zack scenes during maybe the final part of this project, and they'd only be flashbacks. Remake's ending has opened the floodgates on Zack content.

So, how Zack is Back? I'd make him a playable character! His moveset would be eerily similar to Cloud's on purpose. Just change some parameters, like maybe Zack hits harder, but is less agile. Furthermore, he's going to need some levels to play in. I'm of the opinion that we're looking at two independent timelines that have slightly displaced events. So as the party begins their globetrotting adventure, Zack is just entering Midgar before the first bombing mission in his timeline. This answers the call for levels. Zack can explore the areas of Midgar featured in part 1. The perfect reuse of assets!

Finally, what Zack is Back? Never in a million years would I've predicted that Remake would resurrect Zack. I'm still reeling from it! So, what is it Zack will do in Midgar? Taking a page from FFXIII-2's book, I imagine some anomalies will be left over due to the defeat of the Whispers. Similar to the time anomalies in XIII after chaos entered the world. These anomalies would allow the two timelines to interact with each other. To what end? I can totally see Zack joining the party and Sephiroth in the fight against the god of Destiny (with a captial D) or something.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I can't see the Zack of Crisis Core joining Avalanche. He's not very bright, he doesn't understand the environmental issues involved, and he is extremely loyal to his friends (or "friend" in the case of Tseng). He would never approve of Avalanche's methods, and he might not be able to believe in their objectives. He might even decide that, on balance, Shinra is the lesser of two evils. If he looks for Aerith and finds her gone, his only sensible course of action is to leave Midgar and live a low-profile life. However, because he's never really understood the world in which he finds himself, he'll probably go looking for his "friend" Tseng, and depending on Tseng's mood and the exigencies of the plot SE wants to tell, Tseng might send him off on Aerith's - and Cloud's - trail.

Or, more likely, given Zack's bull in a china shop tendencies, Tseng will find him first.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I like that, but I also don't.

Same here, but it is an interesting thought -- sort of a follow-through on the class types employed against the team in the singularity with the Whisper forms of Kadaj, Yazoo, and Loz.

So, maybe something like Zack as a replacement for Cloud, Rufus as a replacement for Vincent, Cissnei as a replacement for Yuffie, Dyne as a replacement for Barret, Elena(?) as a replacement for Tifa, Dinne as a replacement for Red XIII ...

Who else?

And of course the point could end up being that you can't swap out a whole person just because they fill a similar niche in the combat mechanics or whatever. Succees was always dependent on the precise team the planet got in the original go.

I doubt the developers will go this direction, and I'm not even sure it's worth it -- but it's still interesting.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Uh... Zack is a lot smarter than people give him credit for. Especially after Angeal forces Zack to kill him. He looses a lot of the "hyperactive puppy" part of his personality there and gets a lot more serious about what he's doing. The thing is that Zack is an optimist at heart, and most characters in FFVII are not optimists, they're realists (or even pessimists). So tonally, his view on things tends to clash with the narrative's.

As far as Zack's view of Shinra goes, he knows how bad they are better than most people do. He's seen how the fact that Shinra played with Angeal, Genesis and Sephrioth's lives utterly wrecked them, leaving Zack to deal with the fallout. He's also been Hojo's lab rat for the last... four years. So... I can't see Zack going back to Shinra ever. And he knows Shinra has been chasing him and Cloud for the last year and it's not to do something good to them.

His relationship with the Turks is a bit different given how often he and the Turks worked together. Or rather, the Turks feel super-guilty about what happened to Zack (because they knew him pretty well) to the point they started covering up the times they did run into him while he was running from Shinra. At least until the Turks left Shinra... and then they were looking for Zack to make sure Shinra didn't find him. So Zack and the Turks working together would be less "Zack joins up with Shinra" and more "Zack joins up with people who got screwed over by Shinra same as he did". The problem is more convincing Zack that the Turks don't want to turn him in to Shinra rather than Zack willingly going back to Shinra.

AVALANCHE is where it gets tricky... because Zack knows AVALANCHE, or at least, other branches of AVALANCHE that did a lot more nasty things than Barret's cell has. On the other hand, I can't see Zack keeping away from Cloud and Co. because both Cloud and Aerith are there! And there's no way he wouldn't want to know why they are with AVALANCHE. Also, AVALANCHE is going after Sephrioth, and I can't see Zack not being interested in that. So at best... I see him being leery of AVALANCHE at first and then once he finds out what they're actually doing (chasing Sephrioth to keep him from destroying the Planet) being more than okay with joining them. Especially once he finds out what Barrett and Red XIII's back stories are... it's more of the same "Shinra screws people over" that he's seen a bunch of times already.

If anything, I see AVALANCHE having more problems with Zack joining them than Zack would have. Since... Zack's kinda famous all over Shinra. People know about him. One of the most famous SOLDIER 1sts from five years ago joining AVALANCHE? Something's fishy... he could be spying on them for Shinra!

Honestly, Zack joining up with AVALANCHE is a really good source of drama and has a boatload of fun character interactions to play with. I can see the dev team deciding to bring Zack back just for that.

 

[Odysseus]

I feel like that goes waaaaay outside the scope of the project, it might as well be its own spin-off game.

 

[Lestat]

Loving the theories so far but can I just ask something.

We know from the original Zack and cloud get ambushed just outside midgar and that Zack died at the hands of shinra. Cloud ends up being found in his semi comatose state by tifa and assumes the persona of Zack presumably after watching his friend die right in front of him.

If Zack is back in this timeframe then doesn't it stand to reason that he is still caring for cloud and that the entire plotline will be affected as a consequence.

Cloud won't meet tifa, won't join avalanche won't help out with the reactor etc etc etc.

Best case scenario Zack tales cloud to Aeris and maybe the imposter syndrome doesn't kick in due to the fact Zack is right in front of him.

That said Zack doesn't know anyone in avalanche and I can't imagine he's in a rush to make new friends so realistically in this new world wtf is actually gonna happen.

Do we honestly think avalanche sans cloud has the ability to still run the reactor jobs and survive or do we think it's gonna be a one and done job with shinra blowing up the reactor after Jessie's firecracker fizzes out?

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I think if this is the same world (and I do), something happened to either Zack or Cloud between Zack surviving and Cloud getting to Midgar. What that thing is? Who knows.

But then, there's so much "What is this new thing? Who Knows! Come back for Part 2 where it might get revealed!" in FF7R that I really don't care that I don't know what happened. I'm kinda just looking at the narrative and thinking what beats it seems like it's heading towards and kinda taking it from there. All what taking what information we do know for certain (which is very little TBH) into account. We're currently at the "more questions than answers" part of the plot after all.

 

[Lestat]

Best case scenario they try and stay on track with the one world one timeline approach and maybe only reference the Zack stuff at the end again where I'm sure we will have yet another shitty whisper type scenario.

Just a simple 30 seconds of Zack meeting Aeris, maybe cloud in a sack over his shoulder murmuring away to hinself like that drunk uncle everyone has that you only see at christmas. Then fade to black and done.

 

[Clement Rage]

If Zack gets sent after AVALANCHE, Aeris will be able to talk him down, although this might break Cloud's brain.

He might be less friendly to Tseng if she mentions that he fed her to Hojo.

 

[Keveh Kins]

He might be less friendly to Tseng if she mentions that he fed her to Hojo.

Spoiler: Shades of this in that conversation

 

[eleamaya]

If we talked about the AVALANCHE Barret lead with the goal of bombing reactor, I think Zack's moral would oppose their extreme actions. Even if he needs the money to be hired with, I don't think he would simply accept that mission and conflicted as Tifa does. I could see Zack and Barret would clash argument of their view. Zack is a person who concerns about what's right and wrong; he'd follow and stand on his own morals. And he desires freedom, he would've probably been done and not wanna be involved in Shinra anymore even with AVALANCHE. But he's a good friend, knowing Tifa hating him, he could let Cloud take his own decision to help Tifa in AVALANCHE for the blond's personal reason. Heck, he could even make up a story that Cloud is an ex-SOLDIER like him, it doesn't matter anymore if Cloud was a real SOLDIER or not to him; what matter is what's in heart (as he said in ACC) so he would encourage him and can use their buddy talk to keep in touch with AVALANCHE's movement.

So, what's he gonna do without joining AVALANCHE?

Tseng ever faked Veld and Elfe's death in BC (that I'm sure it's what Tseng would do if they managed to rescue Zack before meeting the ambush) so I can see he would hide Zack and let him live peacefully with Aerith as well, having his own mercenary business and flower shop maybe, with Turks sometimes visit to have a cup of tea in her house. The event he'd possibly enter the main plot is when the plate is about to fall and he helps to prevent it. Again... his morals play and he might've predicted the worst consequence of AVALANCHE's extreme action could be happened, knowing Shinra. And imagine at that moment, Aerith is taken too, well.... combined with the fact Shinra KILLS people in front of his eyes (he won't blame The Turks tho'), it'll be the reason he finally raises sword against Shinra, gathering SOLDIER members with Kunsel, and the infantrymen would freak out to face a monster who ever winning out a full battalion ever, etc. Or maybe he even could prevent Reno & Rude to hit the button and the plate wont fall, but it still can be his turning point to fight Shinra.

And in the end, Sephiroth would mess up, revealing that this timeline/universe isn't real and telling Zack he's dead, creating new portal and inviting him to walk across it.

TBC.

Okay, it's worth fanfiction.