SPOILERS So let's say that [spoiler] was really alive...

[Clement Rage]

If Zack lives, then he never finds out who AVALANCHE is. Tifa isn't going to tell a random stranger she doesn't like that she's running a terrorist group.

Zack goes right to Aeris, the Turks eventually try to bring her in... and there are many ways that goes.

 

[waw]

If we accept that Zack is alive (which many believe, and which the ending of P1 may well indicate) how would you go about implementing him into the actual story of the remake? I find it interesting, but also a seriously tricky concept. If you put him with Cloud and the others it will surely change a lot (as people on Discord rightly say, the whole Cloud identity thing is one example) but if you keep him away, what would be the point?

How would you handle it, assuming that he's alive and you wanted to use him in the story?

I think one of the best ways they can do this is give us Laguna-FFVIII styled "flashes" to how an alternate FF7 story is progressing. Zack could be in a new party rounding up his own characters that include some Compilation Heroes like Cissnei, Tseng (why not), Elfe/Felicia, and more. (I think his unconscious Cloud is going to be a "host" for Sephiroth and possibly explain where the unknown Sephiroth is coming from in this world.)

These flashes could be playable, they could just be glimpses that show snippets of key scenes playing out a bit differently with different characters.

In Zack's world Barret dies when the plate collapses, but Biggs lives. Biggs, Jessie, and Zack take off from Midgar with Felicia and Aerith, etc. Their whole timeline would be a bit "behind" ours as Zack tries to chase down CloudPhiroth before he becomes the big bad that enters the main story or something like this.

Honestly, no darn clue! Just spitballing, and this fits an older form of Square storytelling, not sure it'll work in the modern mode.

 

[Fiz]

I have no idea but I struggle with the idea that he will just meet up with Cloud and Co, that would utterly screw Cloud up coming face to face with Zack. Although I do think Cloud is going to go rogue in this and Zack will fill his position.

 

[Areega]

Maybe instead of Zack dying, Sephiroth whisked Zack off somewhere, leaving Cloud on his own. It's a silly idea I just came up with, though, with absolutely no evidence to back it up with.

 

[Roundhouse]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1444493258332119042

Maybe this is what his return is ultimately all linked to?

 

[Makoeyes987]

How is this new?

This is the same speculation from a year ago and from 2007 when Crisis Core released and people thought about if Zack got to face Sephiroth again. That somehow, Zack would succeed where he failed in trying to take out Sephiroth in Nibelheim. It's premised on the leap that because Zack was a "failure" of a Sephiroth Copy and would not get caught up in the Reunion trap, Zack could somehow beat Sephiroth and succeed wherever there was a "failure" in overcoming Sephiroth. It ignores the context that Sephiroth basically has no interest in Zack, goes 100% full power on him and would just proceed with his plan with no pause to torment him; Sephiroth would just kill him. Zack simply couldn't keep up with Sephiroth at all and Sephiroth was emotionally disturbed while still possessing his memories of him. Zack's immune to the Reunion but there's a significant gap in skill between him and Sephiroth and that's coupled with the fact Sephiroth wouldn't open his guard with Zack to toy with him.

It's the perfect example of a bad match up.

 

[Roundhouse]

In a one on one fight, I would pretty much bet on Seph against anyone, sure. Zack doesn't need to defeat Roth to save Aerith, though. It's not necessarily as simple as that.

 

[Makoeyes987]

What makes you think Zack is anymore capable of saving Aerith from Sephiroth when he couldn't even save himself?

Sephiroth wanted to kill Aerith. He did so. He could have killed her any time he wanted when she left on her own and went to summon Holy.

Sephiroth could have killed the whole party in FFVII within the Northern Crater the first time they visited. Instead, he chose to mindfuck everyone, particularly Cloud. Had he not chosen to assume Tifa's identity and make Red XIII give the Black Materia to Cloud, Sephiroth could have easily just bifurcated everyone while they were disoriented and confused thanks to utilizing his Jenova abilities. He could easily do that anytime he wanted while they pursued him.

All it would take for Sephiroth to kill Aerith on his whim or the party as a whole would be for his interest in Cloud (or anyone) to wane and him to simply get serious and focus solely on annihilation. Zack doesn't interest him at all and he faces him in battle with cold precision and overwhelming violence. There's no fucking around and if he wants to kill Aerith, he'll do so regardless.

 

[Roundhouse]

If we only go by what is probable, refusing to consider exceptional situations, then Cloud should never have defeated Seph in the Nibelheim reactor. The very idea is ridiculous on paper. Sometimes stories can sell you on just about anything if the execution is right...which is partly why they are so fun.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The story tells us exactly why Cloud was able to do it and the circumstances for it.

He snuck up behind Sephiroth and lifted him via his own sword impaled inside his own chest to toss him into the mako pit. Cloud frightened and humiliated Sephiroth in that moment.

And Cloud prevails over Sephiroth in part because Sephiroth carries mental damage, obsession/fascination and a vendetta against Cloud for that wounding of his pride. Sephiroth overcomplicates and is fascinated with trying to break Cloud to make up for the shame of being outdone by an MP.

That vulnerability is not present with Zack. It's wholly absent. Meaning Zack takes the full brunt of Sephiroth's power and prowess. There's no opening there. The entire dynamic, and meaning behind the conflict doesn't work just substituting Zack in Cloud's place and expecting some new outcome that's better or whatever. Because that's not how it was written.

There's a meta reason why Sephiroth always says, "only Cloud can defeat me" anytime someone other than Cloud fights and manages not to die against him.

 

[Roundhouse]

Except Cloud prevailed before Seph had that grudge or vulnerability to him. Just as you noted, he did it via a back attack and then a great display of determination. This isn't really the point anyway, though -- again, saving Aerith doesn't necessarily mean defeating Sephiroth. That's an oversimplification. There are SO many factors and changes that could alter an event -- eg, if Zack is present, does he even let her go to the forgotten city? Maybe he stops her. Maybe Sephiroth finds a new idea of tormenting Cloud, like making him fight his best friend Zack, much like he almost had him slice Aerith.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I’m pretty sure Sephiroth would make quick work of pre-SOLDIER Cloud under any other circumstance had he not been taken by surprise, so it’s hilarious to me to think about Sephiroth being this legendary war hero who can’t get over being defeated by a lucky blow from a lowly Shinra grunt…it would be like if a high schooler got lucky and defeated Michael Jordan in his prime one-on-one and then the rest of his basketball career is spent obsessed with proving he’s better than some random kid

 

[Eerie]

I've been rethinking about the few Zack scenes we got, plus the Ultimanias and ToTP, plus reading here and there theories about Zack being already dead. I must say that this theory does hold a lot of merits, especially in the light of ToTP, but I think... it's a little bit different. The devs have made too many comments about the different Stamps, but also if characters that should be dead aren't, then maybe it's in another world.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1415573942266339331

The chapter that changes everything is called Destiny's Crossroads and we see Zack seemingly alive at the end. The interesting points:

- we see Zack in his Last Stand and Aerith is taunted by Sephiroth to... do whatever she does to the portal, creating a Singularity (and more?) with this vision
- we see Zack victorious... but we also see an ads with a different Stamp than the one we saw and were pointed at several times during part 1
- Zack is seen alive and carrying Cloud after his famous Last Stand where he should have died - but the OG depicted him dying to 3 mere grunts
- Aerith reacts to this by mourning Zack (the sky... I hate it) - Nomura casually dropped that she hates the sky because it took away her beloved ones, Ifalna AND Zack
- Zack is seen alone at the church in sector 5, with the church full of people
- in ToTP the way Aerith describes Elmyra's husband returning to her lets one think about Zack at the end of Intergrade: he does not realise he's dead and "walked" a long journey to come back to her; in the same way people don't seem to notice Zack in the church, as if he was not there
- the devs insist that the story of FFVII will go on as we know it - and FFVII is Cloud's story, a story of loss and life

This begs a few questions:

- what did Aerith do exactly?
- why is Zack alone in front of the church - where is Cloud?
- who are the people in the church?
- in parallel, is Biggs truly alive, and if so, are Jessie and Wedge also alive?

So, my current theory is that... Zack is neither dead or alive (no please don't run!).

It all comes down to Aerith being taunted by that vision of Zack's Last Stand. As per Crisis Core, Zack should have died there. As per the OG, he died killed by three grunts. So if Remake is a reinterpretation of the OG+Compilation, it does make sense that we have Zack having his Last Stand and then being killed by three grunts. Except for all the hints that something else is going on.

We also know that Zack's death has a huge impact on Cloud and it has to happen; so it did, in our timeline anyway. Did Aerith change the past with her singularity? Did we get a new timeline with Zack going on in adventures on the side, trying to find wtf happened to Aerith? Maybe. As @ultima786 pointed it in this thread, there is some WTF copying of Midgar going on at that point of the story. So we know it is possible to have a copy of the real world inside the Lifestream (ha, you see me coming back with my idea that the Lifestream connects all those realities, uh? XD).

So do I think Zack died? In a way, yes. He was shot by those three grunts after coming out victorious from his Last Stand (as this diverge from CC, Stamp is different because a new timeline/world has been created to contain this). BUT Aerith did save him in a way; her singularity has some deep shenanigans going on. Zack did not realise that he had died, in his quest to reunite with Aerith - as such we know that the souls who are like him usually travel through the Lifestream until their goal is reached. But he did not exactly end up in the Lifestream. He ended up in a copy of it, in a parallel world, where those who do not wish to die (or realise) but died ended up - the people in the church are I think also dead. They are in a new reality that is slightly different from our timeline, and contrarily to souls in the Lifestream, they don't dissolve in it. It may simply cover all the souls that died in the time covered by the singularity (starting end of September then, when Zack fought his Last Stand, until the party escaped Midgar).

Why? I think the first idea is to touch death and its aftermaths differently than what they did in the OG. In the OG, they made us attached (or not ) to Aerith right before killing her and cruelly taking her away. Of course, this will also happen in Remake; but it won't have the same impact as it did the first time around. I remember that before Remake was released, I chatted with @Maidenofwar and told her that it would be great for Aerith fans if we could see what she did in the Lifestream after her death this time around. Ultimately, this is what is, IMHO, happening. They are just preparing this; I also thought that with Intergrade they amped up the Zerith reunion and I do think it will happen there, in this sort of afterlife. It is most probable that they will also show up in the final fight against Sephiroth. but why the need to create an alternative world for this? This alternative world, that is definitely located *inside* the Lifestream, also allows for characters to not dissolve yet and to expand on the afterlife. We know only rare souls can not dissolve in the Lifestream through their strong resolve, and it's not what's happening there. This new world was created to protect Zack by Aerith, even if unknowingly. This would explain why she has that line about the sky, because she knows that Zack is not here anymore, and it would also explains why he shows up alone in front of the church (where is Cloud in this scene?? Where are Zack's wounds???). But he's not truly dead in the sense of FFVII yet. Hence why Zack is neither dead or alive.

For Biggs, the question is more tricky because he's shown in a bed with bandages on his head. Let us say that I think that Toriyama's comment is pointing out at Jessie rather than Biggs... I'd say Biggs is the extra joker card because he's being treaten at the Leaf orphanage, unlike Zack who showed up suddenly without any wound. But maybe it is also including Biggs, I don't know. I've felt strongly that if one of the Avalanche trio should live, then it had to be Biggs because he was the one less expanded upon in part 1, the one we had less chance to bond with.

Thank you for putting up with this crazy theory up until now. I'm off to hide because even per my standards, it's a bit out there lol XD

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I'm coming to the conclusion that in their world death means something different, and much less final, than it does in ours.

 

[eleamaya]

- in ToTP the way Aerith describes Elmyra's husband returning to her lets one think about Zack at the end of Intergrade: he does not realise he's dead and "walked" a long journey to come back to her; in the same way people don't seem to notice Zack in the church, as if he was not there

Tbh, the scene when Aerith sense that Zack's life fading away in CC ending is more similar to Marcellus' case, not Clay.
Marcellus' life was saved because Aerith told the adults to rescue him, and they're not late. But in Zack's case, she dunno where he is.

I imagine the silence when she's praying in the church is the moment when she communicates with Zack. Marcellus could notice Aerith when she asked about where he is. So, my headcanon is Zack could notice her as well. But since her power weaken as she grows older, they probably can't hear what the others say. Aerith could sense the death/life fading away in two locations only: her house (Clay & Marcellus) and church (Kyrie's parents & Zack) where lifestream is near. Still in my headcanon, Clay's case is more similar to Kyrie's parents'; that the ghosts reach Aerith because, at that time, Aerith was in the house with Elmyra and playing in the church with Kyrie. Meanwhile, she and Zack are possible to meet because his last thought right before got shot is her. And just as Clay muttered "gomen" that Aerith read his lips, Zack probably did the same. It's one of the words he wants to say in Intermission ending anyway.

Then the game shot her expression to the sky, zoom out Zack's eyes in the wasteland.

She probably wants to believe that his life was saved just like Marcellus, pretty alive with someone else, with a girl perhaps. But deep down, she knows he's gone, she must've also sensed when his life finally faded. And she's struggling to move on. And since Zack already met Aerith in his dying bed, his ghost didn't search and come to visit like Clay and Kyrie's parents did.

Zack in FF7R is pretty alive. But what timeline/reality he is, we dunno yet.
It's still possible that he's still dead in Aerith's timeline. Or, she may be unaware of his new presence. Hence, she phrased that she hated the sky.
So, it's NOT him neither dead nor alive. It's him BOTH dead and alive, depend on the timeline/reality.

- why is Zack alone in front of the church - where is Cloud?

This is just Zack dropping Cloud nearby. Remember in CC, when he's about to visit his parents and met Cissnei instead, he also left the bike and Cloud

 

[frosty]

it would be like if a high schooler got lucky and defeated Michael Jordan in his prime one-on-one and then the rest of his basketball career is spent obsessed with proving he’s better than some random kid

What if...Michael Jordan could then astrally project himself to troll the random kid without even having to physically be there, while his actual physical body can continue to do his real job - like summoning Meteor, I mean, winning the NBA championships?

I mean, pettiness knows no bounds

 

[Eerie]

Tbh, the scene when Aerith sense that Zack's life fading away in CC ending is more similar to Marcellus' case, not Clay.

I am solely talking about what we see in Remake, not what we see in CC here, because Remake has visibly modified the ending of CC, and very heavily at that.

Zack in FF7R is pretty alive. But what timeline/reality he is, we dunno yet.

Well that's the thing. Him coming back to knock at the church's door IS very reminiscent of Clay returning to Elmyra. If it was CC, Aerith would be there, but it's not CC and instead there's a bunch of people who look sad/possibly wounded. So, to me, there are two possibilities:

- either he's alive in another timeline, but Aerith is dead - don't forget this is 3 months before Remake starts, supposedly, and there are people around in the church which is unusual. The alternate timeline would be outside the Lifestream, tho connected to it, most probably.
- either he's dead, the people inside are either dead or alive (and can't see him in that case), but he's in a sort of copy world created by the singularity that's placed inside the Lifestream.

In both cases, we can bet that it was Sephiroth's goal by taunting Aerith - he may want something to experiment on. The first case poses problems: where are Zack's wounds, where is Cloud (though he could be set aside), and how would it interact with the main timeline - because as we speak, in both cases, we must have it interfering with the main timeline at some point. The second case solves all those problems: Zack's dead so no wound, no Cloud who's about to start Remake's story, and it being a timeline inside the Lifestream would allow Zack to meet up with the real Aerith easily (the amped zerith reunion) and them to work on that side to help defeat Sephiroth.

I do feel that there's more than just "oh Zack is alive in another timeline" because I feel it doesn't fit right. Him being between life and death like this though? It could explain a lot of things more easily. In the end, FFVII and Remake are Cloud's story, so SE cannot focus too much on what's happening with Zack (if we're lucky we'll get a DLC with him, come on SE). Giving Zack too much importance is a real risk in terms of balance, considering that he's already a very important character in the story, his charisma, etc., and there's a real risk that he'd overshadow Cloud, which I'm sure the devs don't want in Cloud's own story.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I don't think the Remake has modified the ending of Crisis Core. That still exists, and the Remake doesn't render it non-canon.
I think what the Remake offers us is an alternative ending. Where exactly that alternative exists in time and space remains to be determined.
The Lifestream was originally meant to be the chi of the planet, the spiritual energy or life force that enables life to exist. When people died, their spirit energy dissolved into it, though some offered more resistance than others (like a very stubborn clot of instant coffee, or a fatberg). Clearly Square's conception of what the Lifestream is and can do has moved on, but I'm not sure what it is now, or how people can perpetuate their selves and live their lives inside it.

 

[KindOfBlue]

What if...Michael Jordan could then astrally project himself to troll the random kid without even having to physically be there, while his actual physical body can continue to do his real job - like summoning Meteor, I mean, winning the NBA championships?

I mean, pettiness knows no bounds

And that’s why I love Sephiroth, dude’s not just evil but also petty as hell lmao like “hey Cloud, lemme repeat your mother’s dying words back to you because I killed her lol”

 

[Eerie]

I don't think the Remake has modified the ending of Crisis Core. That still exists, and the Remake doesn't render it non-canon.

I think I am not clear enough, but the CC ending that does exist in Remake timeline is the timeline we play in (probably). What I am talking about, the specific point is the timeline where Zack is "alive". And it's very different from the CC ending.

I think what the Remake offers us is an alternative ending. Where exactly that alternative exists in time and space remains to be determined.

I agree, this is why I came up with this not dead or alive theory. By all FFVII's standards, Zack is *not* dead (he isn't in the Lifestream as we see it when the gang is inside of it on Aerith's side, and very obviously he did not dissolve in it), but is he alive? That ending really begs the question. I think they are trying to show us a sort of possibility in the afterlife that could be the basis of what happened with Aerith after she dies, and during that 2 years gap before ACC. This would just be before that.

If we think about Maiden, he just 'came back' as is from Aerith thinking about Cloud. This could be a major plot point that the devs want to cover, and show in a canon way: i.e. Zack never truly dissolved in the Lifestream, and he continued his search of Aerith from his death. This is something we see in CC, he reunites with her when he's dying, but in Remake such a reunion has been taken off (from his reality). I also think that one of the side points is to give zerith a resolution they did not truly have up until now.

Clearly Square's conception of what the Lifestream is and can do has moved on, but I'm not sure what it is now, or how people can perpetuate their selves and live their lives inside it.

Yes, we saw the Whispers, which are very close to what weapons are in the OG - they carry the intent of the Planet. They can copy the world. I think it all comes from Sephiroth and Aerith able to live on from the Lifestream, especially Sephiroth who is able to create this other world inside of it. The world where Zack lives could be the pendant of Sephiroth's world (in that fight in chapter 18), but as Sephiroth's world is inside the Lifestream, so would be Aerith's. It's a pretty big possibility.

 

[Thenir]

but the OG depicted him dying to 3 mere grunts

The dynamics are expanded of course but he's shot to death by three common grunts also in CC.


In the main Remake timeline Zack necessarily died the way he did in Crisis Core, Cloud has his sword and the fake persona, and Aerith refers to his death at the end of the game - both the rain her line are references to CC ending when she sensed his death (moreover: because official Remake materials still include his death at the end of September).

Thing is that Zack's death was shown to be a very conscious moment. He had time to entrust Cloud to be "the proof of his existence" and he saw Angeal coming down from the sky to carry him away. Why now Zack should be wandering in the Lifestream in a sort of purgatory without Angeal, carrying an illusionary Cloud and unaware of his own death?

During the Last Stand shown in the Remake the whispers formed a dome on Midgar and 3 of them were floating among the platoon. They were supposed to be there to ensure that Zack died but he was shown alive before the explosion of whispers. The weather can be used as a time reference, originally Zack died when it started raining, while in the Remake he survived when it was still sunny and he was shown carrying Cloud toward Midgar when it started to rain.
Couldn't it be, maybe, that the Planet decided to save him to counterbalance the changes that happened in the Remake timeline?

- either he's alive in another timeline, but Aerith is dead

Why should Aerith be dead? If there's a timeline or dimension where Zack survived that could have consequences that go beyond the formation of Cloud's alter ego. Shinra would probably try to keep him under the thumb, for example, kidnapping the girl he loved. There are endless possibilities, maybe something else happened in Midgar when the whispers "exploded" and I'm of the opinion that the Biggs showed alive at the Leaf House belongs to Zack's timeline.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

"he isn't in the Lifestream as we see it when the gang is inside of it on Aerith's side"
When does the gang go into the Lifestream? What is 'Aerith's side'?
What changes happened in the Remake timeline significant enough to require a 'balance', and how would reviving Zack or preventing his death provide that balance?

Yeah I don't understand how, while the original shoot-out that killed Zack took place days or even weeks before the start of the OG, in the Remake he's making his last stand at the same time as Cloud & Co are trying escape Midgar. I don't understand what kind of time shift has occured there, or what forces or mechanism (aside from plot convenience) have caused two separate but parallel timelines to misalign in this way; to become unparallel. I mean it's like when my zip malfunctions and one half of it keeps zipping while the other side bunches up.

 

[Thenir]

What changes happened in the Remake timeline significant enough to require a 'balance', and how would reviving Zack or preventing his death provide that balance?

They defeated fate, that will necessarily have consequences. I have no idea what role Zack will have in this situation, but I have a feeling he will show up at the Temple of Ancients.

 

[Eerie]

Why now Zack should be wandering in the Lifestream in a sort of purgatory without Angeal, carrying an illusionary Cloud and unaware of his own death?

His death would happen after we see him and Aerith cross paths. So he's still very alive (but in the past) at that time.

They were supposed to be there to ensure that Zack died but he was shown alive before the explosion of whispers

The whispers were probably busy with the gang tho... If you think about it, Aerith avoided the Whispers to be focused on him by creating this portal and having the party going through it. So the Whispers couldn't go through with Zack.

Couldn't it be, maybe, that the Planet decided to save him to counterbalance the changes that happened in the Remake timeline?

To me it has more to do with Aerith's own doing than the Planet. Because elsewise, why would she be shown Zack's Last Stand before deciding to act? It's her, and her only who did whatever she did at that moment. Her singularity also did something to the time - it seems to me that the 3 months that separate Zack from the start of Remake have disappeared for him after his Last Stand.

Why should Aerith be dead?

I can't tell you more other than "it's an impression I got from the ending scene in Intergrade". It's a strong impression but it would also make sense, as I don't see SE wanting to juggle with two Aeriths, especially since this would be the original Zack, but another Aerith. There are too many problems there, and also, you don't want the original Zack to reunite with an Aerith that's not the original Aerith. If Zack is going after Aerith, it's the one we know in Remake.

When does the gang go into the Lifestream? What is 'Aerith's side'?

They do in chapter 18 during the fight, before they face Sephiroth I think. That watery passage where they wonder wtf is going on, it seems that they are in the Lifestream - this is Aerith's world, versus Sephiroth's world later on when Cloud and Sephiroth face each other. The way Sephiroth has shaped his part of the Lifestream makes me think it's possible that Aerith did the same.

Yeah I don't understand how, while the original shoot-out that killed Zack took place days or even weeks before the start of the OG, in the Remake he's making his last stand at the same time as Cloud & Co are trying escape Midgar.

As *I* understand it, it's the Singularity that causes this time mishap. I suppose that it contracts time and space into one big ball, and that's also why Zack - whether dead, alive or neither - ends up at the church at a different time than what he did at the end of CC.

 

[Thenir]

The whispers were probably busy with the gang tho... If you think about it, Aerith avoided the Whispers to be focused on him by creating this portal and having the party going through it. So the Whispers couldn't go through with Zack.

But there were still a lot in Zack's scene around Midgar. From a narrative standpoint there's no point showing whispers near Zack but have him survive without them even trying to kill him, if that was their intention. On the contrary Zack himself can't believe he survived, suggesting that they may have helped him. But I agree it could have been Aerith's doing more than the Planet's. For sure there's a connection between what she did to the singularity and what happened to Zack.

I can't tell you more other than "it's an impression I got from the ending scene in Intergrade". It's a strong impression but it would also make sense, as I don't see SE wanting to juggle with two Aeriths, especially since this would be the original Zack, but another Aerith. There are too many problems there, and also, you don't want the original Zack to reunite with an Aerith that's not the original Aerith. If Zack is going after Aerith, it's the one we know in Remake.

I get your point, but there are already two Zacks. According to AC even if Zack is dead he can retain to a degree his consciousness, he's dead but his spirit is still conscious in the Lifestream while he's seemingly alive in another timeline/dimension/whatever. There are two Clouds as well, SOLDIER-Cloud and mako-poisoned-Cloud, same for Aerith, Tifa, Barret, I suppose there are "two versions" of everyone, main cast and random people.