SPOILERS So let's say that [spoiler] was really alive...

Roundhouse

Pro Adventurer
If we accept that Zack is alive (which many believe, and which the ending of P1 may well indicate) how would you go about implementing him into the actual story of the remake? I find it interesting, but also a seriously tricky concept. If you put him with Cloud and the others it will surely change a lot (as people on Discord rightly say, the whole Cloud identity thing is one example) but if you keep him away, what would be the point?

How would you handle it, assuming that he's alive and you wanted to use him in the story?
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
I don't think Zack's "alive" where Cloud and the others exist. Zack exists somewhere else, in a separated dimension, therefore it would be interesting if Cloud had dreams of Zack in this alternate world, and it would serve as hints or cues to the player about Cloud's confusing past. Cloud would be completely confused. He would wonder if these were memories or premonitions. And Zack would have his own issues trying to figure out why the world was different and unknown to him, and then discovering he should be dead.

It'd be a new way to express Cloud's mysterious existence and then culminate with Zack's use as a guest party member for the final battle and then ultimately going back to his proper moment in time since he'd realize he can't exist. Then he'd say farewell to Cloud and disappear.
 

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
I think having him travel with Cloud and the gang would definitely change the story in a way I’d rather not deal with but I don’t think they’ll go there. I imagine there’ll be a few scenes involving Zack scattered throughout the next game but no major detours in the story involving him until one big blowout at the end of the game. At the very least, maybe we’ll get hints of Aerith detecting Zack is alive through her connection to the planet or maybe Cloud will receive some kind of vision or flashback. Aside from Zack being directly mentioned in Gongaga with his parents, I don’t think we’ll get much more than a few references or minor appearances but much like how Sephiroth and the Whispers were handled in this game, the real meat of Zack’s role would probably be saved for the end.

I also think where the next part ends will play a huge role in how Zack is handled, especially if they decide to end the next game at the end of OG disc 1 at the Forgotten City. If they end it there, the last fight would be against Jenova•LIFE based on the OG, so I could see them maybe connecting that fight to Zack somehow in some long extended boss sequence at the last chapter. I honestly think it would be more likely that we fight against Zack at the end rather than having him join the party, especially if it turns out that Zack is under Jenova’s control or that his very survival is just an illusion.

Either way I’m convinced that Zack’s survival, whether real or not, is part of an effort to screw with Cloud and perhaps even screw with Aerith. For all we know, Zack’s apparent survival could be just another way of Sephiroth mindbreaking Cloud even further when he surrenders the Black Materia. I intentionally stayed away from the concept of parallel universes because until we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they exist in this game, I’m not convinced that we’re dealing with parallel dimensions or multiple timelines just yet. At this point, I’m convinced we’ve simply either rewritten the past and therefore created a future free from predestination (supposedly), or the whole thing is one big elaborate troll of an illusion by Jenova. Also, if Jenova successfully gets Cloud to kill Aerith, something tells me Zack won’t be too happy about that.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Why would Zack be amnesiac?

He'd be joining the final battle against Sephiroth, not the party permanently. That's a huge difference.

And FYI, I don't mean the fight against Safer Sephiroth or the showdown between Cloud vs Sephiroth. Three's going to be a battle after that. They're not going to leave the final battle climax untouched. There will be additions.

So are we in Chrono Cross? :monster:

Abso-friggin-lutely. :monster:

I intentionally stayed away from the concept of parallel universes because until we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they exist in this game, I’m not convinced that we’re dealing with parallel dimensions or multiple timelines just yet.

They all but come out and say it when discussing the mystery of Zack's apparent survival in the Remake Ultimania. The fact Zack exists in a world where Stamp is different and Cloud simultaneously has the Buster Sword but Zack is alive shows these two continuities cannot exist in the same world. Hence why they walk past each other. Zack is and isn't there, he's in a different world than Cloud and the others.
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
Given Cloud is remembering way more about what happened at Nibelehim and also a lot more about his "true self", there's many more chances for the other members of AVALANCHE to catch on to the fact that something isn't right about Cloud way earlier than canon. This makes me think that Cloud's "memory arc" is probably going to be accelerated compared to canon and everyone will figured out what "really happened" to Cloud. Zack showing up early on in the story would be a great way to facilitate that as Zack knows way too much about who Cloud really is for anything but the truth to fly.

The thing is... I can see this being a fake-out to lull the players into a false sense of security. That since Cloud now remembers his own past a lot earlier than canon, he can resist Sephiroth better. Only, that's not really the case. Sephiroth is just not messing with Cloud until oh... Temple of the Ancients or the Northern Crater. And then Sephiroth pulls his "Cloud, you are a puppet and all those memories are just stuff Hojo put in you" out of nowhere. And it completely blind-sides everyone because they thought Cloud's mental issues had gotten fixed. Cue Cloud mentally breaking and handing over the Black Materia!

The thing with Zack is that, he's a good friend. There's no way he wouldn't take a look at Cloud and realize something really wrong is happening and try to fix it. And he's got a take-charge attitude (for good reason!). So he could very easily take over leadership of AVALANCHE (Barrett has issues with this which causes lots of drama!). So there would definetly be a balancing act for SE to do with him.

But I have seen "Zack Survives" fics manage that balance between Zack and Cloud in various ways. So I know it's doable.
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
Why would Zack be amnesiac?
Don't make me explain the jooooooooooooooke
Okay, in Chrono Trigger you have Magus, coolest man around. He actually returns in radical dreamers under the alias "Gil." Since Chrono Cross uses a lot of ideas from RD, Magus was also going to return in CC as "Gil" and help defeat the dream devourer. During development they decided to leave him out because it would be too hard to develop his character properly in the midst of Chrono Cross' million party members, so he was scrapped and replaced with a Magician character named Guile. Guile has no backstory to speak of, other than that he's searching for strange occurrences. In the DS port of CT, we see Schala teleport Magus to an unknown point in time after they have one last encounter, where she wishes him to live his life free from the burden of his hopeless quest to save her. He wakes up in a field with no memory, and wanders off because he has the vague feeling he has to find something. The implication is that Guile is actually Magus with amnesia.

The joke is that the easiest way to incorporate Zack into the party without messing with the story at all is to just give him amnesia so his personal baggage doesn't weigh down the plot lol.
also, talking like you know what will happen is set up for future dissapointment.
 

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
They all but come out and say it when discussing the mystery of Zack's apparent survival in the Remake Ultimania. The fact Zack exists in a world where Stamp is different and Cloud simultaneously has the Buster Sword but Zack is alive shows these two continuities cannot exist in the same world. Hence why they walk past each other. Zack is and isn't there, he's in a different world than Cloud and the others.

We know that our world as we know is different via Stamp, but I don’t think it’s clear that we’re dealing with two separate worlds parallel to one another just yet. For starters, Cloud and Zack walking past each other may have occurred at roughly the same point in space but not the same point in time as Zack had brought Cloud to Midgar months prior, so I don’t think the two events conflict with one another. As for the Buster Sword...maybe something happens that results in Cloud ending up with it anyways?
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Derp. My mistake. I get it.

I'm not saying that's what would certainly happen with Zack. That's just one direction readily available and apparent that they could take the story and thread the parallel plot they've established in Part 1 while simultaneously staying true to overall story of FFVII itself. It's just one possibility, however it's a possibility that clearly doesn't contort FFVII into some bizarre amalgam called Crisis Core 2: Electric Boogaloo.

We know that our world as we know is different via Stamp, but I don’t think it’s clear that we’re dealing with two separate worlds parallel to one another just yet. For starters, Cloud and Zack walking past each other may have occurred at roughly the same point in space but not the same point in time as Zack had brought Cloud to Midgar months prior, so I don’t think the two events conflict with one another. As for the Buster Sword...maybe something happens that results in Cloud ending up with it anyways?

Then I don't know how you square Zack walking away alive with an encounter we know for a fact he should've died in.


That Stamp bag of chips is specifically stated not to match the Stamp that exists in Cloud's world. And there are now two Cloud's existing separately in that time and space. How else does Zack walk by Cloud wielding the Buster Sword, yet they don't see each other or occupy the same exact area? They cannot because as stated explicitly there
it would be a contradiction. A paradox. But Zack did survive and he has an unconscious Cloud, which does not work with a Cloud who inherited the Buster Sword from a dead man.
 
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Zack defeats the Shinra soldiers in the exact same moment (on some or other continuum) that Cloud and Co. defeat the Whispers: after realising the last Shinra trooper is finished, Zack turns and watches the dome of Whispers boiling over Midgar turn to fading embers of light, which is what happens when Cloud & Co defeat them. The two scenes are juxtaposed to make it plain that the extinction of the Whispers and Zack's compilation-defying survival are causally connected.
 

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
Then I don't know how you square Zack walking away alive with an encounter we know for a fact he should've died in.
The way I see it right now, defeating the Whispers in the present caused the events of the past to change. At this point, we don’t know how Zack’s survival may have altered the events of Cloud’s story thus far because we still don’t know the exact events taking place between Zack bringing Cloud to Midgar and Cloud being hired by Avalanche other than what was already shown in the OG. Hypothetically, if something else were to happen to Zack on the way to Midgar and he ends up separated from Cloud anyways, the events of the first game could still play out the same way.

That Stamp bag of chips is specifically stated not to match the Stamp that exists in Cloud's world. And there are now two Cloud's existing separately in that time and space. How else does Zack walk by Cloud wielding the Buster Sword, yet they don't see each other or occupy the same exact area? They cannot because as stated explicitly there
it would be a contradiction. A paradox. But Zack did survive and he has an unconscious Cloud, which does not work with a Cloud who inherited the Buster Sword from a dead man.
Assuming what’s being stated is not lost in translation, I think there’s a couple of things to look out for. For one, the statement about Stamp simply points out the change in design, not that one Stamp exists in one world and that the other exists in a different world. At this point, we don’t know what the specifics are and it’s clear that we won’t know until at least the next game (maybe). As of now I think it’s possible that we haven’t shifted to another world entirely, but that we’ve merely rewritten the events of this world.

Case in point, Cloud. The text describes two Clouds because that’s visually what’s being presented to the player. We don’t know if there are literally two Clouds that exist because the statement about “assuming that they should not exist in the same time and space” would also make sense if we were describing one Cloud at two different points in his life. Remember, Zack bringing Cloud to Midgar did not occur at the same time Cloud and the gang left, that took place weeks/months prior.

Based on that, I think the reason Zack walks by Cloud with the Buster Sword is that he didn’t literally do that, but it’s a visual cue to let us know something in the past has changed. So when they ask “how is it possible that two Clouds exist at the same time?” my response is maybe it’s not two Clouds, it’s one Cloud who we’re witnessing leave Midgar in the present, superimposed with a flashback of a newly rewritten history where Zack brings Cloud to Midgar.

Of course, I could be completely wrong but I’m trying to imagine a scenario that doesn’t turn the story into Final Fantasy VII: Into the Cloudo-Verse. For all we know, it’s all a Jenova illusion anyways.:monster:
 
The singularity is, I assume, some place outside of normal space-time dimensions. For all we know, everyone who ever stood within five miles of Midgar's location at any point in the Planet's history saw the Whispers being defeated. It would be odd if only Zack could see it. In fact it would be cool if when they arrived at the Temple of the Ancients, they saw the defeat of the whispers recorded in a fresco on the wall!

We can keep guessing about what SE has in store for Zack, but we won't know for sure until Part 2. However, it seems unlikely they would have gone through this elaborate set-up if there wasn't going to be a pay-off down the line.

I think Part II is going to start all over with the bombing raid on reactor number 1, but this time it's going to be Zack and Cloud on top of that train.
 

Alex Strife

Ex-SOLDIER
I always assumed it was perfectly possible for Zack to kill all the MP's, carry Cloud... and still be shot from behind by surprise as it happens in the OG. This would happen right after what we see in FF7R: P1.

Would be neat if the whole P2 played with the idea that Zack might be alive after all by showing some snippets out of context, or just showing some flashbacks... only to reveal at the end that he is not alive after all. Shock for the new players, shock for the old players who are starting to assume he is alive.

And those who don't want to change the story too much would also be happy, presumably!
 
AKA
Alex
I always assumed it was perfectly possible for Zack to kill all the MP's, carry Cloud... and still be shot from behind by surprise as it happens in the OG. This would happen right after what we see in FF7R: P1.

That's what I initially thought -- that the ending was merely a symbolic nod to the fact that one character's (Zack) story was ending (as he's shot right after this near the hill overlooking the city) and another's was just beginning (the group walking out into the unknown). I also thought that Aerith only realized/confirmed Zack's fate due to the lingering vision(s) left as the Whispers were destroyed.

That said, if they really are in two separate continuities, I have no idea how they could conceivably intersect again without time-travel shenanigans and/or something to do with the Whispers (maybe they're not dead?).
 

Torrie

astray ay-ay-ay
Then he'd say farewell to Cloud and disappear.
I can hear the sounds of a massive heartbreak among fans.

it would be more likely that we fight against Zack at the end
I can hear the sounds of the heartbreak intensify.

Would be neat if the whole P2 played with the idea that Zack might be alive after all by showing some snippets out of context, or just showing some flashbacks... only to reveal at the end that he is not alive after all. Shock for the new players, shock for the old players who are starting to assume he is alive.
This is a really clever idea. And the more I'm thinking about it now, the more plausible it becomes. I imagine this would be a strategy to incorporate Zack in the story as flashback material in order to introduce him to the players who have no idea about the existence of Crisis Core or Zack's existence in general. And kill him at the end of Part 2 according to his fate. Yeah. That would be neat.

Alternatively, if he is alive and is heading to Midgar, it's beginning to look a lot like fanfic from the official creators team. My imagination suggests the same split storytelling as it was in FF9 with "Active Time Events" or in FF6 where you simply choose the plot arc you would like to play right now. In modern games, that's probably not the case any longer, but I'm not really sure how to feel about it.

Zack is whack, yo.
So you're a poet, and I didn't know it :mon:
 
AKA
Alex
If he is alive and is heading to Midgar, it's beginning to look a lot like fanfic from the official creators team. My imagination suggests the same split storytelling as it was in FF9 with "Active Time Events" or in FF6 where you simply choose the plot arc you would like to play right now.

A creator can do whatever they want with their story -- if there's a legitimate opportunity to make story beats that are on par with or better than the original work, I'd be all for it. Look at the rebooted Battlestar Galactica; people swore up and down that it would be garbage, until the show actually started and people actually realized that the storytelling (especially for some of the classic plot points/story beats) was done better (and in a darker/more mature way) than the original. And even that has plot twists that are controversial/polarizing, to say the least.

The problem I have with Zack's death/survival is that it's the "Uncle Ben's Death" of the VII universe. It's one of those immutable story beats that's so pivotal to the franchise/character development of the lead character that's it's very difficult/almost impossible to change it, as it has fundamental consequences for the success/failure of the franchise as a whole. There's a reason why Marvel never changed (or relegated it to What if stories) Uncle Ben's fate for decades -- they knew it was too important an event to risk screwing with via time-travel/alternate fate shenanigans.

I'm expecting that if Zack is going to play a purpose in the story, it has to be something that's still pivotal enough to Cloud's growth as a character that it matches his sacrifice in CC. Otherwise, making it just a variation on his death (maybe he lives long enough to impart extra advice to Cloud?) is going to be pointless. Nevermind the issues of this maybe/possibly being in the same timeline/time-travel shenanigans.
 

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
The problem I have with Zack's death/survival is that it's the "Uncle Ben's Death" of the VII universe.

Personally, this is why I’m leaning less in the direction of “Into the Cloudo-Verse” idea of multiple worlds existing simultaneously with alternate versions of the same people and more in the direction of a “Clouds;Gate” idea where only one world exists at a time but can be rewritten. I think there’s more consequences that way if it actually is this world’s version of Zack instead of just another Zack pulled in from an alternate dimension.
 

Roundhouse

Pro Adventurer
Wait, Zack dying is the Uncle Ben of FF7? I'm not sure about that -- I remember playing the OG and barely caring at all about Zack. Clearly he is important to Cloud's story, but in the OG it was in an oddly detached way. He's a SOLDIER that Cloud tries to emulate. (Unlike Uncle Ben, who served as the emotional motivation for Peter to actually become Spider-Man.)

Now, if we're also talking Crisis Core (as I think you are) then they did seem to try and flesh out the whole Zack and Cloud relationship and his death, for sure. Even then, though, it still feels as if his death isn't -quite- as big a thing as Uncle Ben. Cloud borrows part of his identity (with a personality that is not really much like Zack aside from cockiness), but does Zack need to be dead for this to happen? Zack could have been somewhere else, still presumed missing, and Cloud can still get away with his usual stuff.

The problem is that if Zack is off somewhere else, what is he doing?
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
First thing he'd do is go to Aeris' house, find her gone...and then... what?

If Elmyra hasn't been snatched yet, he might try to stage a late rescue of Aeris from the Shinra building, not knowing she's free. Would he be able to track the gang?

If he finds an empty house...what?
 
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