[Spoilers] Material Ultimania Plus discussion

[The Twilight Mexican]

I know, and I am also saying I don’t think the Remake’s characters are being ignored anymore in discussion than FFXIV’s characters do.

I wish it seemed that way to me. I feel like 90 percent of the Remake discourse is about time ghost plot police; potato chip bags from alternate timelines; what Cloud knows about his past this time relative to what he knew at this point in the original; what Aerith knows about the future; whether Aerith will live; etc.

I mean, yeah, some of that includes mention of the characters, but it's not really about them. So I totally feel like they've gotten sidelined in their own requel.

Possibly, but a capital being reduced to a tiny fishing village? That's not at all what happened to Rome in any sense after the fall of the Roman Empire. It was never really reduced to a nothing-town, and there's no evidence of old, remaining structures that were abandoned.

OG FF7 (from my memory here) made it sound like Shirna built Junon during the Wutai War, and it was a cleaner, more precise build than the rushed job of Midgar.

I realy hope they just give us a little more.

I was thinking something more like what Lic said here:

Or, who knows, Junon was the name for the whole republic, and when it collapses this little no-name fishing village decided to adopt the name for itself.

Juat a smaller place within the boundaries of what used to be the larger nation keeping the name in use.

And then Shin-Ra goes "Ha, okay. Let's build a monument to our military on top of it."

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

It seems that Junon itself couldn't have been the capital, but there also isn' t a remnant of any town that could have been the capital city of a large state like 'the Republic of Junon'. There are no large towns aside from Midgar. Hopefully the Remake will fix that.

 

[Eerie]

Dude, my town was the Capital of the 3 Gauls and nearly disappeared after the 2nd century lol just for perspective yes, it happens.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

That's right! You reminded me there's a village across the lake, where the remains of the Roman ampitheatre are bigger than the modern town is.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

(I knew that, but I didn't want to geolocate you, just in case you didn't want people to find you).
I was thinking of Avenches.
And then there's Carthage, which was completely destroyed by the Romans in the 2nd century BC, but later also rebuilt by them
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthage#Punic_Republic

 

[Theozilla]

I wish it seemed that way to me. I feel like 90 percent of the Remake discourse is about time ghost plot police; potato chip bags from alternate timelines; what Cloud knows about his past this time relative to what he knew at this point in the original; what Aerith knows about the future; whether Aerith will live; etc.

I mean, yeah, some of that includes mention of the characters, but it's not really about them. So I totally feel like they've gotten sidelined in their own requel.

Oh I don’t disagree that discussion about the Remake is dominated about plot elements over the characters. I just don’t feel that ratio is that significantly from discussions that occur in the FFXIV fandom. And that if there is some difference in the comparative ratios, it is more due to the difference in the two series’ structures and narrative production design, than of difference in story content.

 

[Eerie]

Yes a lot of towns grow, and die out. Troy was freaking huge yet we lost it. There’s no doubt it happens. I will say that in the case of Junon it can seem weird because Nibelheim is in another continent after all. This would be interesting in terms of history but I doubt we’ll ever hear of this more clearly!

 

[Makoeyes987]

I wish it seemed that way to me. I feel like 90 percent of the Remake discourse is about time ghost plot police; potato chip bags from alternate timelines; what Cloud knows about his past this time relative to what he knew at this point in the original; what Aerith knows about the future; whether Aerith will live; etc.

It really depends on where you go or discuss it, tbh. Most places discussing anything about the Remake or characters outside of the new temporal plot or future of said Remake is hype, praise and/or excitement. At this early point in the story, what else is there to discuss except that which lies ahead?

Like, there is only so many ways one can say you enjoyed the fuck out of say...Chapter 9, seeing the characters fleshed out properly, the gameplay, Midgar, etc. FFVII-R knocked it out the park and is a self contained retelling of that small portion of the OG. That's sorta the "problem" (and I use this term very loosely) with doing a good Remake like this. Outside of the new material it introduces, it's going to tread ground we know, and when it does it well, what more can be said? It's amazing. It's good. It's nostalgic yet fresh, etc. In the end, we know who these characters are, what their story is, and a vague expectation of what's to come next.

The fertile soil for discussion lies in the uncertainty of what is new down the pipeline. The novelty. This shows that for better or worst, FFVII-R is still predominantly a remake game of FFVII.

 

[Shademp]

HOLY
FUCKING
SHIIIIEEEEEEEET

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1416815129807638528

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Game Gengo's in-depth look at that JP text went over that over a year ago. And he pointed it out then. I think I posted that in the "Significant changes from the JP to ENG in Remake" thread actually...

I will say, JP Sephiroth sounds much more ACC Sephiroth and EoC Sephiroth than English Sephiroth does.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I wish it seemed that way to me. I feel like 90 percent of the Remake discourse is about time ghost plot police; potato chip bags from alternate timelines; what Cloud knows about his past this time relative to what he knew at this point in the original; what Aerith knows about the future; whether Aerith will live; etc.

I mean, yeah, some of that includes mention of the characters, but it's not really about them. So I totally feel like they've gotten sidelined in their own requel.

I think the trouble is that how the characters develop is intrinsically tied to what happens to them in the future. And the fandom really doesn't want certain futures to happen and so doesn't want to really feel out how that could *work*. Instead they just assume that what they don't like won't work at all when it comes to characterization.

We constantly people saying that introducing Zack early wrecks Cloud's Memory Arc for example. Which is more a character/narrative commentary than a lore one. However, it also flies in the face of the many fan-fics out there that have Zack survive and Cloud still have a Memory Arc (if with some modifications). I've seen it happen enough and *work* to know that SE could totally have Zack run into Cloud and Co. very early on and it not actually fix things with Cloud's memory too quickly and it not be out-of-character.

Same thing goes for Aerith's Death. People keep going to the extreme of "if Aerith dies, everyone's characterization is thrown out of wack". When half the point of her death is that it *didn't* change a lot of things in the OG. Including the fact Cloud and Co. were already going to kill Sephiroth.

What you're left discussing is how the characters interact with each other and the world in Remake... and there's... honestly not a lot to go on? Remake doesn't cover a very long period of time. It instead covers a very short period of a few days in great detail. I'm half-joking when I say it feels like FFXIV expansions cover more, but I'm also not. FFXIV cuts out a lot of the details of travel and how characters get from Point A to Point B, but it includes more "big moments" when character development happens. So it feels like we get more events that impact characters in FFXIV expansions than we did in Remake. Which is a factor to think about when people want hi-fidelity stories. The less the story "cheats" on how long it takes to do mundane things, the fewer "big moments" it often gets to include.

FFXIV is also in a very different stage of it's story compared ot FFVII Remake. FFXIV is about to get the *finale* of it's current story arc. So the characters have already gotten a lot of character development that can be discussed and played around with... and we have a *very* good knowledge of the world mechanics. There's reasons I'm not discussing a lot of FFXIV lore stuff in other places on the internet and it's because... it feels like there's not a lot to disscuss until November. Where we'll get the answers (finally).

If I had to compare Remake to anything in FFXIV it would be 2.0. But even 2.0 happens over a much longer span off time in-game than a week and the characters go through a lot more emotional roller-coasters than Remake. The pacing isn't as good, but the world-building that was done in 2.0 far outstrips that of Remake when it comes to metaphysics. What 2.0 *fails* at is *quickly* getting the player emotionally invested in the main characters right off the bat. It instead slowly ramps up.... later expansions would fix this problem.

 

[OWA-2]

Game Gengo's in-depth look at that JP text went over that over a year ago. And he pointed it out then. I think I posted that in the "Significant changes from the JP to ENG in Remake" thread actually...

I will say, JP Sephiroth sounds much more ACC Sephiroth and EoC Sephiroth than English Sephiroth does.

EoC?

 

[Obsidian Fire]

EoC = Edge of Creation Sephiroth

 

[Makoeyes987]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1417186235307610117

I thought they dispersed because of the Power of AeriTi Friendship

This is actually very interesting because it proves something that others have theorized. The Arbiters of Fate are not omnipresent. They seemingly have to prioritize which disturbances to focus their "Feelers" on. Which is why certain deviations take priority over others.

Wedge walking around alive was apparently a far more egregious disturbance than Aerith talking about Jenova. Guess they're like Death from Final Destination, lol

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I guess the Whispers can't focus on more than one disturbance in the force of destiny at a time?
I thought they left because the original plot was back on track.
They seem kind of useless tbh.

I have a feeling I'm going to regret this question, but....
If the Lifestream is a river of energy somehow flowing outside the bounds of time, and made up of past, present and future memories that Sephiroth can use like a road to travel back and forth through history at will, and if the Whispers exist to preserve the Lifestream status quo, and they are defeated, meaning the future is changed.... Aren't the present and future memories which make up the Lifestream also changed, maybe sundered, rearranged, organised in different connections? Wouldn't that mean the road Sephiroth used to travel on becomes disrupted, and what's more, always has been and always will be disrupted, different from what it was before the Whispers were defeated? If Sephiroth is successful and the future changes, then he wouldn't have a reason to travel back in time in the first place and so the events of FFVII Remake would never happen... if the future can impact on the past in the same way that the past can impact on the future. That is, if he's going to win in the future, then he's already won in the past, which means the Whispers should actually be protecting Sephiroth's preferred timeline. Yes? No?

 

[Makoeyes987]

If the Lifestream is a river of energy somehow flowing outside the bounds of time, and made up of past, present and future memories that Sephiroth can use like a road to travel back and forth through history at will, and if the Whispers exist to preserve the Lifestream status quo, and they are defeated, meaning the future is changed.... Aren't the present and future memories which make up the Lifestream also changed, maybe sundered, rearranged, organised in different connections? Wouldn't that mean the road Sephiroth used to travel on becomes disrupted, and what's more, always has been and always will be disrupted, different from what it was before the Whispers were defeated? If Sephiroth is successful and the future changes, then he wouldn't have a reason to travel back in time in the first place and so the events of FFVII Remake would never happen... if the future can impact on the past in the same way that the past can impact on the future. That is, if he's going to win in the future, then he's already won in the past, which means the Whispers should actually be protecting Sephiroth's preferred timeline. Yes? No?

I think that's precisely the reason why you get bizarre anomalies like another world suddenly emerging with Stamp as a Terrier instead of a Beagle, and people seemingly dead now no longer so.

There's some sort of existential thread that ties the convergence and consistency of memories within spirit energy to their respective time period and when inconsistencies are allowed to occur without correction, you get a timeline split. A timeline split allows these separate temporal choices and paradoxes to exist simultaneously, while also being connected. Hence there being two Clouds, two Buster Swords and two histories where in one people have died, and another people seemingly keep on going.

I can't imagine that such timeline splitting could be healthy or without consequence. I imagine it's sorta like suddenly sprouting a parasitic twin that shares the same organs and bloodstream with you but is now living and doing things separately from you, and subsuming your vital resources. I don't think such an otherworld would be allowed to simply continue on, because eventually a timeline would have to be chosen as "correct."

 

[Eerie]

In the OG Sephiroth already traveled the Lifestream and he tainted it I think already back then? So they’re expanding on that too. So far Sephiroth hasn’t changed anything yet.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

But there is no "yet" in the Lifestream. There is no before or after. Past, present and future are all simultaneously present. There is only an unbounded "now".

Why would the timeline split? What force would cause it to do that? The new future is now the only future there ever was or will be. The previous future doesn't exist and never did. How can the planet contain future memories of things that aren't going to happen? There are no inconsistencies because the contradictory event never took place and never will.

I feel this calls for a mathematician, and I am certainly not one.

 

[Makoeyes987]

But there is no "yet" in the Lifestream. There is no before or after. Past, present and future are all simultaneously present. There is only an unbounded "now".

There is a "yet" if some outside entry event disrupts that course and proceeds to initiate the planet having to protect the chain of events that have occurred within its life.

Why would the timeline split? What force would cause it to do that? The new future is now the only future there ever was or will be. The previous future doesn't exist and never did. How can the planet contain future memories of things that aren't going to happen? There are no inconsistencies because the contradictory event never took place and never will.

The timeline splits because of a change in history and to accommodate the paradoxical consequence which exists because "destiny" already was set before. The memories of a future that might not happen still exists as "destiny" which the planet clearly intended to protect.

Because, let's say X number of souls within the Lifestream come from a past where the Plate falls on Sector 7, and their memories, experiences, etc, joined the Lifestream along with all the other events that stem from that cataclysmic loss of life.

Now, let's say Cloud and the others succeeded in preventing the plate from falling and Sector 7 and its slums weren't destroyed.

There's now a massive deficit in souls, memories, and temporal/ethereal consistency that now exists, and will proceed to change the entirety of existence. It obviously cannot reconcile with the thread of destiny that already existed up until then, so what happens? Time and reality can't simply wink out of existence, it's already been written as part of the Planet's "Destiny."

So, the timeline splits from that moment and things proceed past that point in two separate directions, like a frayed thread of fabric now split and then pulled in two separate directions. An alternate timeline holds the change and then the original timeline carries the proper course. Time can be rewritten, but it can't be erased.

That's why Sephiroth in Chapter 18 is aware of things that haven't happened yet, and Cloud remains himself despite there being a massive change with Zack being left alive. The paradoxes are accommodated by the timeline splitting in two.

 

[Shademp]

But there is no "yet" in the Lifestream. There is no before or after. Past, present and future are all simultaneously present. There is only an unbounded "now".

I will, perhaps foolishly so, continue holding on to the hope that the lifestream used to only exist in a fleeting present. That is, until Sephiroth broke time and suddenly the planet had to create antibodies (the Whispers) to combat the time breakage. The lifestream currently exhibit traits of existing in multiple layers of time but, like Makoeyes says, it is almost certainly not a state of existence that is healthy for the lifestream.

The thought of the Whispers being retroactively present during the original game (which is the supposed original timeline) terrifies me. It means that none of the major decisions by the characters were EVER their own. Reasons and motivations no longer matter. It's all just the Time Police.

It is already supremely ugly enough in the Remake timeline that eons of planetary change, biological evolution and the growth of civilization has been led by the Whispers. The Whispers may not have controlled every single movement and every single person, but it's still so massively invasive on the entire metaphysical worldview and framing of the world that it's just...obscene.

Many people playing the original game are offended by the thought of having to retroactively picture that Deepground exists beneath Midgar. It's a splinter that jabs at their brain, reminding them of a thing they dislike while playing the game that they actually like.

Deepground is the friggin' BREAD CRUMBS of retroactive continuity compared to how invasive the Whispers are if we're supposed to imagine them existing in the original game's world. At least Deepground is hiding underground, but the Whispers are swirling about in countless locations, guiding events endlessly for millions and millions of years.

...and that's why I'm passionate about the Whispers being the planet's post-AC/post-DoC immunity response to a nexus event that created all the time shenanigans in the first place.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I was right. I do regret raising this question.

It seems the planet doesn't have a fixed destiny. It has a range of possibilities, and among those possibilities, it has preferences, which it wishes to enforce.

But it cannot have "future memories", because you can't have a memory of something that hasn't happened yet. I am perfectly fine with accepting that the Lifestream exists in an eternal "now" which contains past, present and future; in such a scenario, temporal beings could experience their glimpses of the future as "future memories". I have more trouble accepting the logic that the Lifestream contains both timelines which it desires AND timelines it does not desire. I reject the logic of a future that both simultenously exists and hasn't yet come into existence.

If the timeline "splits", how exactly does this happen? Where is this parallel world? Is it sharing the original Lifestream or does it now have one of its own, i.e. a destiny of its own, which the alternate Planet also seeks to protect? And presumably somewhere the original world is still following the original destiny? Is this like mitosis, but one of the daughter cells has a mutation? Or is it more like cutting up a cake into ever smaller pieces?

@ Shad: you can't step into the same river twice, but every time you step into the Lifestream, you step into all it has ever been and ever will be.

 

[OWA-2]

My problem with all of this, is that time/destiny only makes sense, when it's a universal concept, not a planetary one. Because time works the same way everywhere. So if you make it contained to a single planet(with it's entire history already written), what happens when something outside of it's time bubble disrupts the flow(like something crashing on the planet)? Then the already written history/timeline of the planet would change(since the crashing wasn't written in it's history)? And what if another rock crashes on the planet? And another one? And another? I mean, that's something pretty common. So the planet's destiny will keep changing everytime that happens?

It's very confusing and convoluted. That's why I think it would be MUCH better, if they connected the Whispers to the Universal Lifestream, instead of Gaia's.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

But if the planet has future memories, it would remember that those rocks were going to crash into it and Jenova was going to arrive and Sephiroth was going to be born.

 

[OWA-2]

But if the planet has future memories, it would remember that those rocks were going to crash into it and Jenova was going to arrive and Sephiroth was going to be born.

How, if said rocks were outside the planet's influence(outside it's time bubble)?

 

[Makoeyes987]

I was right. I do regret raising this question.

It seems the planet doesn't have a fixed destiny. It has a range of possibilities, and among those possibilities, it has preferences, which it wishes to enforce.

I say "potato," you say "potato"... Same difference

But it cannot have "future memories", because you can't have a memory of something that hasn't happened yet. I am perfectly fine with accepting that the Lifestream exists in an eternal "now" which contains past, present and future; in such a scenario, temporal beings could experience their glimpses of the future as "future memories". I have more trouble accepting the logic that the Lifestream contains both timelines which it desires AND timelines it does not desire. I reject the logic of a future that both simultenously exists and hasn't yet come into existence.

Sure it can. Just like Aerith can have future memories of events yet to happen that might not happen. It's like a script. A vision. The planet's aware of what is supposed to happen, and it has the data (souls and memories) to ensure it happens, but the progression of physical reality is still in flux.

The Lifestream doesn't "contain" a timeline, it more like triggers the creation of one. I don't think the timeline itself exists in the Lifestream, but I think that inconsistency and schism within it would prompt an existential pull that would cause a split timeline to form.

I mean, you can reject that logic, but it's pretty much staring you in the face at this point. Zack's alive, but also seemingly dead from another temporal perspective. How does that work?

If the timeline "splits", how exactly does this happen? Where is this parallel world? Is it sharing the original Lifestream or does it now have one of its own, i.e. a destiny of its own, which the alternate Planet also seeks to protect? And presumably somewhere the original world is still following the original destiny? Is this like mitosis, but one of the daughter cells has a mutation? Or is it more like cutting up a cake into ever smaller pieces?

I mean, I can't tell you exactly how. But usually, when something changes history, that's what causes the timeline to split. The timeline splits to accommodate the change without winking reality out of existence.

That's the question I'm really curious about, regarding "sharing" the Lifestream. There's clearly connection between these two worlds/timelines. Aerith feels things. The symbolic crossing of paths of Cloud and Zack, with Cloud and Aerith. There's like, something there that ties them together. I dunno if they share the Lifestream exactly, but they're connected in some form or fashion. I used the comparison of a parasitic twin because I do think they may share a spiritual connection that might cause one to have to succumb to the other.

My problem with all of this, is that time/destiny only makes sense, when it's a universal concept, not a planetary one. Because time works the same way everywhere. So if you make it contained to a single planet(with it's entire history already written), what happens when something outside of it's time bubble disrupts the flow(like something crashing on the planet)? Then the already written history/timeline of the planet would change(since the crashing wasn't written in it's history)? And what if another rock crashes on the planet? And another one? And another?

Well, maybe there's an even greater network of souls that exists on a planetary, universal level that this works on as well. Sorta like how Omega and a planetary death fits within the spiritual cycle of the cosmos. That's a very real and logical possibility right there. I'm just focusing solely on the Planet since this is all about the Planet, but it can easily work on a wider scale just like all spirit energy does.

Deepground is the friggin' BREAD CRUMBS of retroactive continuity compared to how invasive the Whispers are if we're supposed to imagine them existing in the original game's world. At least Deepground is hiding underground, but the Whispers are swirling about in countless locations, guiding events endlessly for millions and millions of years.

...and that's why I'm passionate about the Whispers being the planet's post-AC/post-DoC immunity response to a nexus event that created all the time shenanigans in the first place.

Well, up until this point, nothing would have ever been capable of careening the Planet's life off course. The entirety of FFVII and the planet's near death was part of the proper course of "destiny" the Planet saw for itself, so that right there tells you that yes. Something significant happened after all that to somehow necessitate "Feelers" to "feel" out what is wrong and try to put it "right." No, I don't think the Arbiters of Fate have had to literally shape history like the Occuria did for Ivalice. I personally think Sephiroth did something significant in the future to cause this. Maybe in pursuit of finding his "Promised Land" and making the Planet finally accept him as its "god" or something.