Star Wars: Episode 7, 8... and BEYOND!
- Thread starter Charles Xavier
- Start date
Lulcielid
Eyes of the Lord
- AKA
- Lulcy
Mage
She/They
- AKA
- Mage
Lawls, I read somewhere on FB yesterday that it had been received 'poorly' and fans were slating it. I hope whoever wrote that felt st00pid. 
Anyway, I wanted to scribe my thoughts but I was in the bath on my phone so I've had to wait but I'll try to keep it brief because it's 2.05am and I have a full day at work ahead.
I also feel like I need to draw attention to the animals in the film because they're awesome. The porgs in the Millennium Falcon were particularly entertaining.
Anyway, I wanted to scribe my thoughts but I was in the bath on my phone so I've had to wait but I'll try to keep it brief because it's 2.05am and I have a full day at work ahead.
Now this could well be me being pedantic, but there are several references to the Rebel ship being very low on fuel - during the end of the Canto Bight bit Rose actually says that the ship is running on fumes. This is because it's fuelling the escape shuttles, but before this it only has enough fuel to make one jump to hyperspace. How the fucking fuck did the Admiral jump to hyperspace when there was so little fuel that the shields were giving out? It's a minor quibble and I'm sure there's a valid answer out there (go on X 
) because overall the scene was amazing and the notion of the sacrifice of a few to save more was replayed several times in the film. I know lots of people didn't like certain elements of the film but I loved every minute, laughed a lot (Yoda was amazing and just typical Yoda, no attempt at making him into something else), loved that Luke had smuggled the Jedi texts on board the Millennium Falcon and couldn't take my eyes off the crystal foxes (FOXES. CRYSTAL ONES. DID I MENTION FOXES?). I loved that they're crystallised on a salt planet and the sounds of their movement were perfect. Very much a personal highlight there.
I wasn't so keen on Luke's astral projection, I actually thought he'd already snuffed it when he appeared and looked groomed, but the lack of a blue aura and the touching of Leia threw me. Also loved that Leia used the force casual as fuck in space when she should've been flailing like she was drowning, she just looked so serene. Skywalker dudes definitely have more volatility with the force.
IMHO I think that Rey will turn out to be far more important than Ben claimed - I think he was giving her a red herring to make her feel worthless and insignificant to try and subconsciously nudge her towards the dark side. The thing about her parentage in the dark cave was interesting because you don't know if that was Snoke's influence too.
Someone (probably X again) made a good comment about how the progression of the story will emphasise balance within the force and I reckon that's the right of it - did anyone else notice how the kid picked up the broom at the end?
.
I wasn't impressed with Benicio del Toro being in it, Laura Dern got a pass because it was a one-shot role but IIRC you don't see the codebreaker die so he might well resurface. In a film series this big, well-known Hollywood names make me flinch a bit (I didn't like Liam Neeson as Qui-Gon, though Ewan McGregor brought young Obi-Wan to life very well. Christopher Lee as Count Dookie was crap, as was the fight with Yoda but I could rant for days about how lacking I, II and III were).
Mention has been made of the film feeling like it lacked direction and the Canto Bight bit being too long and ultimately pointless and I just want to address those too - there was plenty of character development as has been mentioned but to me it felt like a chess game - you can move the pieces back and forward tactically without actually progressing the game at all and you don't lose anything, but you have to weigh up the gains differently because there's no pieces being taken to show for it. /philosophy
As for the Canto Bight bit being pointless, well the group who came up with the plan weren't high-ranking, they felt powerless and like they had to do something before everything was lost, which is kind of a recurring theme with the Rebellion - Leia had literally just gotten the plans for the Death Star from a last-ditch mission that nobody survived, then got arrested and had to wait fucking aeons before the Rebellion could capitalise on the data. Anyway, it wasn't pointless because Finn stepped up, learned how not to run away, took out Phasma like a boss and still managed to escape a ship about to explode. Even if he and Rose did fuck it all up and fail, they still tried, because the alternative was clearly ending up like the poor folk on Canto at best and dead at worst. IMO that fail was what made him aim for the battering cannon with his speeder despite it costing him his life, he wanted to be a hero but it wouldn't have achieved anything which is why Rose crashed him out of range.
Anyway, I saw it on Thursday night and have been mulling it over since and I just can't agree with a lot of the criticisms, but I'm speaking as someone who has only seen the films rather than expanded universe stuff (I lost heart after Mara Jade) but I don't think Disney are fucking the franchise over at all, TFA, Rogue One and TLJ all feel much more like the original trilogy.
) because overall the scene was amazing and the notion of the sacrifice of a few to save more was replayed several times in the film. I know lots of people didn't like certain elements of the film but I loved every minute, laughed a lot (Yoda was amazing and just typical Yoda, no attempt at making him into something else), loved that Luke had smuggled the Jedi texts on board the Millennium Falcon and couldn't take my eyes off the crystal foxes (FOXES. CRYSTAL ONES. DID I MENTION FOXES?). I loved that they're crystallised on a salt planet and the sounds of their movement were perfect. Very much a personal highlight there.I wasn't so keen on Luke's astral projection, I actually thought he'd already snuffed it when he appeared and looked groomed, but the lack of a blue aura and the touching of Leia threw me. Also loved that Leia used the force casual as fuck in space when she should've been flailing like she was drowning, she just looked so serene. Skywalker dudes definitely have more volatility with the force.
IMHO I think that Rey will turn out to be far more important than Ben claimed - I think he was giving her a red herring to make her feel worthless and insignificant to try and subconsciously nudge her towards the dark side. The thing about her parentage in the dark cave was interesting because you don't know if that was Snoke's influence too.
Someone (probably X again) made a good comment about how the progression of the story will emphasise balance within the force and I reckon that's the right of it - did anyone else notice how the kid picked up the broom at the end?
.I wasn't impressed with Benicio del Toro being in it, Laura Dern got a pass because it was a one-shot role but IIRC you don't see the codebreaker die so he might well resurface. In a film series this big, well-known Hollywood names make me flinch a bit (I didn't like Liam Neeson as Qui-Gon, though Ewan McGregor brought young Obi-Wan to life very well. Christopher Lee as Count Dookie was crap, as was the fight with Yoda but I could rant for days about how lacking I, II and III were).
Mention has been made of the film feeling like it lacked direction and the Canto Bight bit being too long and ultimately pointless and I just want to address those too - there was plenty of character development as has been mentioned but to me it felt like a chess game - you can move the pieces back and forward tactically without actually progressing the game at all and you don't lose anything, but you have to weigh up the gains differently because there's no pieces being taken to show for it. /philosophy
As for the Canto Bight bit being pointless, well the group who came up with the plan weren't high-ranking, they felt powerless and like they had to do something before everything was lost, which is kind of a recurring theme with the Rebellion - Leia had literally just gotten the plans for the Death Star from a last-ditch mission that nobody survived, then got arrested and had to wait fucking aeons before the Rebellion could capitalise on the data. Anyway, it wasn't pointless because Finn stepped up, learned how not to run away, took out Phasma like a boss and still managed to escape a ship about to explode. Even if he and Rose did fuck it all up and fail, they still tried, because the alternative was clearly ending up like the poor folk on Canto at best and dead at worst. IMO that fail was what made him aim for the battering cannon with his speeder despite it costing him his life, he wanted to be a hero but it wouldn't have achieved anything which is why Rose crashed him out of range.
Anyway, I saw it on Thursday night and have been mulling it over since and I just can't agree with a lot of the criticisms, but I'm speaking as someone who has only seen the films rather than expanded universe stuff (I lost heart after Mara Jade) but I don't think Disney are fucking the franchise over at all, TFA, Rogue One and TLJ all feel much more like the original trilogy.
I also feel like I need to draw attention to the animals in the film because they're awesome. The porgs in the Millennium Falcon were particularly entertaining.
X-SOLDIER
Harbinger O Great Justice
- AKA
- X
On the note of user scores, there's a lot of trolling and bombing happening on sites, and this article covers it pretty well: http://deadline.com/2017/12/star-wa...c-imdb-users-cinemascore-posttrak-1202228837/
(I plan on addressing some of Mage's awesome points tomorrow, 'cause I'm on the verge of falling asleep nao)
X
(I plan on addressing some of Mage's awesome points tomorrow, 'cause I'm on the verge of falling asleep nao)
X
The G'randiest' Daddy
Teh Bunneh of Doom
- AKA
- Darth
So I don't really discuss much because I hate typing, but I'm gonna jump in here and answer a question because PICK ME PICK ME PICK ME!
So for Mage -
So for Mage -
Star Wars ships have two separate engines and two separate fuel types for regular travel and hyperspace travel. So even with all the fuel in the transports, the Admiral still had the hyperspace fuel, which was useless to the transports as they don't have hyperspace engines.
TBH what actually bugged me a bit was that Leia didn't make the jump in the first place when Poe&Co where still making their bombing run - X-Wings, A-Wings, and B-Wings all have their own hyperdrive engines. Iguess they couldn't spare the fuel for the smaller ships? Dunno.
TBH what actually bugged me a bit was that Leia didn't make the jump in the first place when Poe&Co where still making their bombing run - X-Wings, A-Wings, and B-Wings all have their own hyperdrive engines. Iguess they couldn't spare the fuel for the smaller ships? Dunno.
looneymoon
they/them
- AKA
- Rishi
Not directed at anyone here : I think the fan hatred is overblown. It isn't a "terrible" or even "bad" film, and it certainly doesn't ruin the franchise.
That being said, I can't really blame people being disappointed. I can certainly see it being a letdown given the amount of hype with the new trilogy. I personally really like Star Wars, but I wouldn't count myself as a Star Wars nerd or anything. I think this is one of those cases where I'm glad I'm not holding onto the expectation of an instant classic whenever a new one comes out. It makes it easier to just like, be here for the ride, you know? So long as the characters maintain an internal logic (which was my biggest problem with the main 2 characters of Rogue One) and there's cool space fights and a vague mythos, I can fuck with what's presented.
That being said, I can't really blame people being disappointed. I can certainly see it being a letdown given the amount of hype with the new trilogy. I personally really like Star Wars, but I wouldn't count myself as a Star Wars nerd or anything. I think this is one of those cases where I'm glad I'm not holding onto the expectation of an instant classic whenever a new one comes out. It makes it easier to just like, be here for the ride, you know? So long as the characters maintain an internal logic (which was my biggest problem with the main 2 characters of Rogue One) and there's cool space fights and a vague mythos, I can fuck with what's presented.
X-SOLDIER
Harbinger O Great Justice
- AKA
- X
I can definitely see how the subversion of expectations has made it pretty rough for some folks based on what 8 COULD have been if it just naturally followed along the threads of 7. I don't begrudge that sort of feeling at all (which is where I think that Shademp seems to be coming from). Every one of the characters gets put through the ringer HARD in 8, and it can feel pretty bleak and disheartening, but I think that it gives a LOT to chew on in a way that sets up 9 to be really spectacular.
It definitely doesn't have the thrilling shiny new stuff feeling that 7 did, but I think that it'll feel a lot different to people after 9. 7 made me feel like a kid watching Star Wars again, and this VERY much didn't have that feeling, but had something different that I have been liking a lot in reflection. I'm gonna go see it again in about an hour (hooray for team activities at work), so I'll have lots more to say about second viewings later tonight.
X
It definitely doesn't have the thrilling shiny new stuff feeling that 7 did, but I think that it'll feel a lot different to people after 9. 7 made me feel like a kid watching Star Wars again, and this VERY much didn't have that feeling, but had something different that I have been liking a lot in reflection. I'm gonna go see it again in about an hour (hooray for team activities at work), so I'll have lots more to say about second viewings later tonight.
X
Joe
I KEEP MY IDEALS
- AKA
- Joe, Arcana
There was so much of this film I enjoyed and even loved. The subversion of expectations, the early Ren/Rey dynamic, Leia being fantastic, and my most favourite scene of Holdo's sacrifice and the lightspeed destruction of a star destroyer. Hnghhh.
There was also a lot of bullshit that took me riiiighhht out of the film altogether. The comedic and lighthearted moments amongst a pretty serious story felt stupid as hell, almost as if they were trying too hard to replicate the Marvel formula. The opening scene of bombs dropping in space (wtf), Finn and Rose about to get executed by Phasma only for her to make a dramatic entrance to the scene moments later after the big explosion, Finn somehow dragging Rose on a stretcher from the death star gun ALL THE WAY TO THE REBEL BASE in a matter of moments while our eyes are on Luke in front of the base.
There was a lot of this and it ended up spoiling a lot.
I would rate this film a 7.5 if I were being totally objective, but that lightspeed suicide ram scene was so fucking good I am bumping it up a point. 8.5
There was also a lot of bullshit that took me riiiighhht out of the film altogether. The comedic and lighthearted moments amongst a pretty serious story felt stupid as hell, almost as if they were trying too hard to replicate the Marvel formula. The opening scene of bombs dropping in space (wtf), Finn and Rose about to get executed by Phasma only for her to make a dramatic entrance to the scene moments later after the big explosion, Finn somehow dragging Rose on a stretcher from the death star gun ALL THE WAY TO THE REBEL BASE in a matter of moments while our eyes are on Luke in front of the base.
There was a lot of this and it ended up spoiling a lot.
I would rate this film a 7.5 if I were being totally objective, but that lightspeed suicide ram scene was so fucking good I am bumping it up a point. 8.5
ForceStealer
Double Growth
Wow.
The G'randiest' Daddy
Teh Bunneh of Doom
- AKA
- Darth
Oh my fucking word.
You know, I really didn't enjoy TFA that much, and I wouldn't really want to rewatch it. This is only personal opinion, but to me TLJ makes me feel like I finally have a real Star Wars movie again (aside from RO which is still my favourite of the new ones so far ) and it feels like this actually fixed every problem I had with TFA.
So what the fuck do people want?!?!
You know, I really didn't enjoy TFA that much, and I wouldn't really want to rewatch it. This is only personal opinion, but to me TLJ makes me feel like I finally have a real Star Wars movie again (aside from RO which is still my favourite of the new ones so far
) and it feels like this actually fixed every problem I had with TFA.So what the fuck do people want?!?!
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
It's Star Wars. The fan response is always overblown (ruining Jake Lloyd's life for no reason was the apex, I think.)
That said, I think there are more issues with this film than simple subverted expectations.
Rey/Kylo/Snoke was pretty good throughout. The rest of the plotting... had some problems, beyond 'this isn't what I wanted/expected'. IMO, anyway.
Flare
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Flare
Oh my fucking word.
You know, I really didn't enjoy TFA that much, and I wouldn't really want to rewatch it. This is only personal opinion, but to me TLJ makes me feel like I finally have a real Star Wars movie again (aside from RO which is still my favourite of the new ones so far
So what the fuck do people want?!?!
I didn’t care for TFA much either, so your post here makes me curious about this new one
Charles Xavier
Pro Adventurer
Pfffffft, like as if THAT'S ever going to work.
X-SOLDIER
Harbinger O Great Justice
- AKA
- X
@Joe: Physics & Stuff
Time for more of my tl;dr!!!!
So, I just finished seeing TLJ for a second time, and I can now say with certainty, that it is hands down my favourite Star Wars film. There are definitely other Star Wars films I find more enjoyable and offer a good time, but there is something profound and utterly spectacular about The Last Jedi that none of the others have because of what it really says when you get over the initial shock and get to digest the film for what it is. I went with co-workers, one of whom had also seen it on opening day & rated it in his bottom two, and after rewatching it said, "I take back everything I said before. That was amazing." and I'm not just sharing that to try and convince the folks who didn't like it to go see it again (even though you DEFINITELY should), but that once you understand the film a bit better, you can really grab on, rather than getting tossed by it.
There was an interview with Ahmed Best (the actor who played Jar Jar Binks), where he talks about being someone who has a huge background in the film industry and being close with George Lucas, why he struggles with the new Star Wars films being built for people to enjoy, rather than being built from conviction around something. (33:43 if you want to jump and listen to him chat about it). That stuck with me quite a bit when I first heard it, and I think having it in the back of my head prepared me for the shock that The Last Jedi dropped, and helped me reflexively embrace it, rather than push away from it.
For The Force Awakens, that sort of thing is 100% absolutely what I wanted and needed from Star Wars. I wanted it to FEEL like Star Wars again, and no film has ever made me feel like a wide-eyed 6-year-old kid the way it did. Even Rogue One gave that Episode IV connection that made that world feel stronger and more real, and played safely with my nostalgia in giving me a way to remember that Era of Star Wars that felt closer to my memories of them than the films outdated or re-edited parts do. — But The Last Jedi has something else entirely, and Pablo Hidalgo (of the Lucasfilms Story Group) tweeted about a reason he initially liked the story, that was covered in this full spoiler review by Slashfilm, that I cannot recommend highly enough.
Building on that note, some stuff I discovered, and stuff I loved and needed to mention from this last viewing:
This film is FULL of downright incredible answers, and is vastly more satisfying upon rewatching it, and continuing to pour over it. Every little bit of dialogue, and everything in the film happens with exceptionally well-crafted purpose, and it does Star Wars better than ever. I cannot say enough great things about it, and despite the ever-shining optimism, as much as I wanted to call it my favourite Star Wars film on my initial viewing, I couldn't, but now I have absolutely ZERO qualms about doing so.
X
• Y-Wings & TIE Bombers have always functioned like bombers in space too, so these Heavy Bomber are really nothing new. Star Wars is WWII naval and aircraft combat + Swords & Sorcery, set in space which is why it's classified as Space Fantasy rather than Science Fiction. That's also why things like Leia, Han, & Chewie exiting the Falcon with Oxygen masks inside a Space Slug with its mouth open, on an asteroid with no atmosphere, means that they don't instantly die, nor does the Flacon's own Oxygen get vented or contaminated, even though they don't leave through an airlock. So long as it adheres to that general structure, it's always the "rule of cool" over hard physics.
• Admiral Holdo hits the ship at Lightspeed. Rose, Finn, and some Stormtroopers are left unconscious in the impact, and the hanger sustains massive damage. The priority at that point is for Phasma and all her active troops to get to an undamaged section of the hanger to load up on the AT-M6's and AT-ATs, to go attack the Base. Rose wakes up first, finds, and then starts dragging Finn, so that when we cut back to them again as Finn wakes up, the hangar is mostly empty of troops, when it was full seemingly moments before, but that's our clue about the passage of time that's taken place. As they try to find an escape craft, Phasma would've had time to've been alerted, and bring a small contingent of troopers with her to gun them down, and prevent them from escaping — especially because she takes FN-2187's disposal personally, but wouldn't've had time to deal with it in the immediate aftermath since her armor meant she was definitely not incapacitated by the strike.
• Finn & Rose are obscured from the AT-M6 nearest them by smoke from their downed craft. Luke casually walks probably about a third of the way out before Ben has all craft fire on him for an extreme period of time, kicking up smoke and debris to cover their path. Additionally, when Luke meets at the landing craft that Kylo Ren exits, he's back on untouched white salted ground, so he's more than halfway across, and he's been immobile the whole time they were firing. Finn is dragging Rose in her pilot seat, across a salt flat, which is probably the surface best suited to believably moving a sled-like structure quickly — even moreso than Ice or snow, since you don't have to worry about him losing traction. I am curious if you can see their progress in any of the overhead shots around then though. I'll keep an eye out for it if I see it again.
• Admiral Holdo hits the ship at Lightspeed. Rose, Finn, and some Stormtroopers are left unconscious in the impact, and the hanger sustains massive damage. The priority at that point is for Phasma and all her active troops to get to an undamaged section of the hanger to load up on the AT-M6's and AT-ATs, to go attack the Base. Rose wakes up first, finds, and then starts dragging Finn, so that when we cut back to them again as Finn wakes up, the hangar is mostly empty of troops, when it was full seemingly moments before, but that's our clue about the passage of time that's taken place. As they try to find an escape craft, Phasma would've had time to've been alerted, and bring a small contingent of troopers with her to gun them down, and prevent them from escaping — especially because she takes FN-2187's disposal personally, but wouldn't've had time to deal with it in the immediate aftermath since her armor meant she was definitely not incapacitated by the strike.
• Finn & Rose are obscured from the AT-M6 nearest them by smoke from their downed craft. Luke casually walks probably about a third of the way out before Ben has all craft fire on him for an extreme period of time, kicking up smoke and debris to cover their path. Additionally, when Luke meets at the landing craft that Kylo Ren exits, he's back on untouched white salted ground, so he's more than halfway across, and he's been immobile the whole time they were firing. Finn is dragging Rose in her pilot seat, across a salt flat, which is probably the surface best suited to believably moving a sled-like structure quickly — even moreso than Ice or snow, since you don't have to worry about him losing traction. I am curious if you can see their progress in any of the overhead shots around then though. I'll keep an eye out for it if I see it again.
Time for more of my tl;dr!!!!
So, I just finished seeing TLJ for a second time, and I can now say with certainty, that it is hands down my favourite Star Wars film. There are definitely other Star Wars films I find more enjoyable and offer a good time, but there is something profound and utterly spectacular about The Last Jedi that none of the others have because of what it really says when you get over the initial shock and get to digest the film for what it is. I went with co-workers, one of whom had also seen it on opening day & rated it in his bottom two, and after rewatching it said, "I take back everything I said before. That was amazing." and I'm not just sharing that to try and convince the folks who didn't like it to go see it again (even though you DEFINITELY should), but that once you understand the film a bit better, you can really grab on, rather than getting tossed by it.
There was an interview with Ahmed Best (the actor who played Jar Jar Binks), where he talks about being someone who has a huge background in the film industry and being close with George Lucas, why he struggles with the new Star Wars films being built for people to enjoy, rather than being built from conviction around something. (33:43 if you want to jump and listen to him chat about it). That stuck with me quite a bit when I first heard it, and I think having it in the back of my head prepared me for the shock that The Last Jedi dropped, and helped me reflexively embrace it, rather than push away from it.
For The Force Awakens, that sort of thing is 100% absolutely what I wanted and needed from Star Wars. I wanted it to FEEL like Star Wars again, and no film has ever made me feel like a wide-eyed 6-year-old kid the way it did. Even Rogue One gave that Episode IV connection that made that world feel stronger and more real, and played safely with my nostalgia in giving me a way to remember that Era of Star Wars that felt closer to my memories of them than the films outdated or re-edited parts do. — But The Last Jedi has something else entirely, and Pablo Hidalgo (of the Lucasfilms Story Group) tweeted about a reason he initially liked the story, that was covered in this full spoiler review by Slashfilm, that I cannot recommend highly enough.
Building on that note, some stuff I discovered, and stuff I loved and needed to mention from this last viewing:
• There were seeds from Rogue One used in TLJ: about the Hyperspace tracking technology.
• Luke & Yoda talking about how the difficulty of being a master is being the obstacle that your students have to overcome, and that passing on knowledge about how you failed, what you failed to do, and how to learn from it is one of the most important things to teach really sticks especially when you look at all of Luke's failings in the original series. Which Pablo Hidalgo also has a great Tweet about connecting to how to look at developments in this film. That message just gets stronger every time, and rings more true for every character, and even the Resistance. It's even true for Star Wars itself growing beyond its own legacy.
• Luke's, "Everything you just said in that statement was wrong." comment to Ben was exceptionally interesting. Not only did he state that Rey was a Jedi (more on that shortly), but rather than the Resistance, he comments that the Rebellion is rising again — pointing to the comments earlier about the surviving Resistance being, "The spark that's going to light the fire that will burn the First Order down." which really hits home on the fact that when DJ last speaks to Finn, he treats everything like it's just business in the machine of war to really hit home on the way that they're shifting to fight is totally different. Lastly, he says, "The war is just beginning" which makes me think that there's opportunity for them to push time a little bit forward when we reach IX, and potentially even for some Force users to join them, since the Knights of Ren were mentioned again, but not brought out, and IX is the perfect stage for them.
• Ben gains all of his strength by letting go of his past, and when he finally lets go of trying to be Vader and trying to measure himself within the shadows of everything that he knows and dreams of, THAT is when he finally succeeds, and surpasses the things Vader was constantly bound by in destroying his Dark Side Master and becoming the supreme leader of the Galaxy. When Luke talks to Leia and apologizes, and she says her son is gone, he tells her that no one is truly ever gone. That, along with him saying that he won't be the last Jedi (because of Rey), makes me very interested in seeing what Ben & Rey represent in IX, because they're connected. Ben fully embodies the Fear, Anger, Hate, & Suffering that Yoda talks about exemplifying the Dark Side, and Rey learned that the Prequel Era Jedi thinking that the Light would die without them was flawed Hubris, so what she becomes as a Jedi while looking to save Ben will be interesting. Even Snoke mentions that he had specifically planned for Kylo Ren growing in power with the Darkness would cause his rival to arise in the Light. Anakin Skywalker fulfilled the prophesy and restored the Balance, so the Light and Dark ALWAYS exist together. (Snoke expected it to be Luke Skywalker, but Luke had cut himself off from the Force when he went into seclusion). To that end, Rey is born DIRECTLY from the Skywalker Legacy because Luke had removed himself from the picture. Her Force powers awakened and arose SPECIFICALLY for the purpose of being the balance to Kylo Ren in Luke's absence. While she's not a Skywalker by blood, her Force Legacy IS that of the Skywalkers, which is why she's still the central character in the Episodic Skywalker Saga, why Anakin's Lightsaber called to her, why Snoke was able to initially connect them in the Force, and why they maintained that connection after his death. Her parents were nobodies, but SHE IS A SKYWALKER by the legacy of her Force powers.
• While the film may initially seem bleak and hopeless, it gives you a very specific message about that as well from Leia, via Admiral Holdo, "Hope is like the sun. If you only believe in it when you see it, you'll never make it through the night." and what felt empty and helpless at the end of my first viewing felt stronger than things had EVER been when I saw it again.
• Luke & Yoda talking about how the difficulty of being a master is being the obstacle that your students have to overcome, and that passing on knowledge about how you failed, what you failed to do, and how to learn from it is one of the most important things to teach really sticks especially when you look at all of Luke's failings in the original series. Which Pablo Hidalgo also has a great Tweet about connecting to how to look at developments in this film. That message just gets stronger every time, and rings more true for every character, and even the Resistance. It's even true for Star Wars itself growing beyond its own legacy.
• Luke's, "Everything you just said in that statement was wrong." comment to Ben was exceptionally interesting. Not only did he state that Rey was a Jedi (more on that shortly), but rather than the Resistance, he comments that the Rebellion is rising again — pointing to the comments earlier about the surviving Resistance being, "The spark that's going to light the fire that will burn the First Order down." which really hits home on the fact that when DJ last speaks to Finn, he treats everything like it's just business in the machine of war to really hit home on the way that they're shifting to fight is totally different. Lastly, he says, "The war is just beginning" which makes me think that there's opportunity for them to push time a little bit forward when we reach IX, and potentially even for some Force users to join them, since the Knights of Ren were mentioned again, but not brought out, and IX is the perfect stage for them.
• Ben gains all of his strength by letting go of his past, and when he finally lets go of trying to be Vader and trying to measure himself within the shadows of everything that he knows and dreams of, THAT is when he finally succeeds, and surpasses the things Vader was constantly bound by in destroying his Dark Side Master and becoming the supreme leader of the Galaxy. When Luke talks to Leia and apologizes, and she says her son is gone, he tells her that no one is truly ever gone. That, along with him saying that he won't be the last Jedi (because of Rey), makes me very interested in seeing what Ben & Rey represent in IX, because they're connected. Ben fully embodies the Fear, Anger, Hate, & Suffering that Yoda talks about exemplifying the Dark Side, and Rey learned that the Prequel Era Jedi thinking that the Light would die without them was flawed Hubris, so what she becomes as a Jedi while looking to save Ben will be interesting. Even Snoke mentions that he had specifically planned for Kylo Ren growing in power with the Darkness would cause his rival to arise in the Light. Anakin Skywalker fulfilled the prophesy and restored the Balance, so the Light and Dark ALWAYS exist together. (Snoke expected it to be Luke Skywalker, but Luke had cut himself off from the Force when he went into seclusion). To that end, Rey is born DIRECTLY from the Skywalker Legacy because Luke had removed himself from the picture. Her Force powers awakened and arose SPECIFICALLY for the purpose of being the balance to Kylo Ren in Luke's absence. While she's not a Skywalker by blood, her Force Legacy IS that of the Skywalkers, which is why she's still the central character in the Episodic Skywalker Saga, why Anakin's Lightsaber called to her, why Snoke was able to initially connect them in the Force, and why they maintained that connection after his death. Her parents were nobodies, but SHE IS A SKYWALKER by the legacy of her Force powers.
• While the film may initially seem bleak and hopeless, it gives you a very specific message about that as well from Leia, via Admiral Holdo, "Hope is like the sun. If you only believe in it when you see it, you'll never make it through the night." and what felt empty and helpless at the end of my first viewing felt stronger than things had EVER been when I saw it again.
This film is FULL of downright incredible answers, and is vastly more satisfying upon rewatching it, and continuing to pour over it. Every little bit of dialogue, and everything in the film happens with exceptionally well-crafted purpose, and it does Star Wars better than ever. I cannot say enough great things about it, and despite the ever-shining optimism, as much as I wanted to call it my favourite Star Wars film on my initial viewing, I couldn't, but now I have absolutely ZERO qualms about doing so.
X
Charles Xavier
Pro Adventurer
I'm curious to know what Colin Trevorrow had in mind for IX now that he's dropped out. Any sources?
Reckon Rey wil have a double-edged lightsaber in the next film, a la Darth Maul, now her lightsaber's broken, and considering how handy she was using her stick.
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Airling
Ninja-Fairy-Jedi-Princess
• Y-Wings & TIE Bombers have always functioned like bombers in space too, so these Heavy Bomber are really nothing new. Star Wars is WWII naval and aircraft combat + Swords & Sorcery, set in space which is why it's classified as Space Fantasy rather than Science Fiction. That's also why things like Leia, Han, & Chewie exiting the Falcon with Oxygen masks inside a Space Slug with its mouth open, on an asteroid with no atmosphere, means that they don't instantly die, nor does the Flacon's own Oxygen get vented or contaminated, even though they don't leave through an airlock. So long as it adheres to that general structure, it's always the "rule of cool" over hard physics.
• Admiral Holdo hits the ship at Lightspeed. Rose, Finn, and some Stormtroopers are left unconscious in the impact, and the hanger sustains massive damage. The priority at that point is for Phasma and all her active troops to get to an undamaged section of the hanger to load up on the AT-M6's and AT-ATs, to go attack the Base. Rose wakes up first, finds, and then starts dragging Finn, so that when we cut back to them again as Finn wakes up, the hangar is mostly empty of troops, when it was full seemingly moments before, but that's our clue about the passage of time that's taken place. As they try to find an escape craft, Phasma would've had time to've been alerted, and bring a small contingent of troopers with her to gun them down, and prevent them from escaping — especially because she takes FN-2187's disposal personally, but wouldn't've had time to deal with it in the immediate aftermath since her armor meant she was definitely not incapacitated by the strike.
• Finn & Rose are obscured from the AT-M6 nearest them by smoke from their downed craft. Luke casually walks probably about a third of the way out before Ben has all craft fire on him for an extreme period of time, kicking up smoke and debris to cover their path. Additionally, when Luke meets at the landing craft that Kylo Ren exits, he's back on untouched white salted ground, so he's more than halfway across, and he's been immobile the whole time they were firing. Finn is dragging Rose in her pilot seat, across a salt flat, which is probably the surface best suited to believably moving a sled-like structure quickly — even moreso than Ice or snow, since you don't have to worry about him losing traction. I am curious if you can see their progress in any of the overhead shots around then though. I'll keep an eye out for it if I see it again.
I feel you. One can nitpick the shit out of things like these in any Star Wars film. And I kind if feel like maybe that was part of what made TFA so blah to me: It was pretty good on doing those little things right, and that made it enjoyable enough from moment to moment. But it lacked a) freshness, and b) a grand story of its own.
With TLJ, this trilogy feels to me like it not only has a story of its own, but will wrap the story of all of the other films too, and do it well.
I loved the symbolism of Luke watching the sunset before becoming one with the force. Several times in the film they mention that the thought that Luke might one day return was all that gave many in the Resistance hope. Now that he has passed, the hope that they could "see" is gone.
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
Well, it looks like I'm X's evil counterpart again... Arrgh.
X-SOLDIER
Harbinger O Great Justice
- AKA
- X
Also, FWIW insofar as physics:
Thanks, TLJ Visual Dictionary!
I'm pretty sure that the fact that IX was planned to be Leia's film, and Carrie's passing just instantly scrapped whatever was initially planned, and that's what set about all the difficulties that lead to JJ taking over, so I doubt we'll ever hear anything about what was in the works anytime in the near future. Maybe way after IX comes out at the very soonest.
X
The MG-100s "drop" their payloads with electomagnetic repulsion to propel the bombs in microgravity.
I'm pretty sure that the fact that IX was planned to be Leia's film, and Carrie's passing just instantly scrapped whatever was initially planned, and that's what set about all the difficulties that lead to JJ taking over, so I doubt we'll ever hear anything about what was in the works anytime in the near future. Maybe way after IX comes out at the very soonest.
X
looneymoon
they/them
- AKA
- Rishi
To be fair, I have a hard time recalling X ever reacting to anything without unwavering optimism
X-SOLDIER
Harbinger O Great Justice
- AKA
- X
To be fair, I have a hard time recalling X ever reacting to anything without unwavering optimism
Just for the record, Transformers 4 & Snowpiercer are about the only two bits of media that I can think of that've ever broken me of positivity in reviewing and such. Also, The Force Awakens II insofar as games are concerned. It's a definite rarity, but it does happen.
Additionally, speaking of less-than-stellar reviews of things, this old piece from Star Wars.com about the original The Empire Strikes Back reviews makes for a properly interesting read, especially given how most people view the film now.
X
Shademp
420
I do not enjoy the direction they went with Luke Skywalker in Episode 8. I would write more about why I feel this way, but the movie has left me so largely disinterested and deflated that I don't even feel like writing up an analysis. What I'll say is that whenever I see the ending of Return of the Jedi, Luke's fate in Episode 8 is not what I'll be picturing. The new movie just doesn't jive with me.
ForceStealer
Double Growth
I don't have any problem with the direction they took Luke in, really. I liked that he was allowed to be sassy, and didn't just turn into Obi Wan. And considering Hamill didn't agree with it, he did a great job acting it.
It's really only killing him that I don't like. It was the only predictable thing the movie did, and it was the only thing I actively didn't want to be predictable. And it was extra bad since they trolled you into thinking he actually wouldn't.
It's really only killing him that I don't like. It was the only predictable thing the movie did, and it was the only thing I actively didn't want to be predictable. And it was extra bad since they trolled you into thinking he actually wouldn't.
looneymoon
they/them
- AKA
- Rishi
I'm glad Hamill is outspoken about his disagreements with the script. He seems like a smart guy and I think it's a red flag if someone like him disagrees with aspects of the film so strongly.
Personally, I felt the weakest parts of the movie had mostly to do with the Finn/Rose meandering. Like I said prior, it felt like filler and I wished they'd given Finn something to do that felt more meaningful to the themes and more tonally consistent with everything else.
It's frustrating because I feel like the things that really pull the movie down are very easily fixed. I think Hamill's grievances could have been addressed by some changes in Luke's dialogue/attitude without changing the core direction they were taking with the character (though to be fair, I did like where they took him - but I think it could have been stronger characterization if they took more of Hamill's input). Same with Finn and Rose's roles to be the fleet's last hope, only to fail. The weak points of the movie don't completely tear it down of course, but a few more revisions could have really elevated the impact of a lot of plot points.
I understand that at this point, they're doing the best they can with Disney wanting to churn out a Star Wars movie every year. Honestly though, I'd much rather wait a little longer for something more polished.
Personally, I felt the weakest parts of the movie had mostly to do with the Finn/Rose meandering. Like I said prior, it felt like filler and I wished they'd given Finn something to do that felt more meaningful to the themes and more tonally consistent with everything else.
It's frustrating because I feel like the things that really pull the movie down are very easily fixed. I think Hamill's grievances could have been addressed by some changes in Luke's dialogue/attitude without changing the core direction they were taking with the character (though to be fair, I did like where they took him - but I think it could have been stronger characterization if they took more of Hamill's input). Same with Finn and Rose's roles to be the fleet's last hope, only to fail. The weak points of the movie don't completely tear it down of course, but a few more revisions could have really elevated the impact of a lot of plot points.
I understand that at this point, they're doing the best they can with Disney wanting to churn out a Star Wars movie every year. Honestly though, I'd much rather wait a little longer for something more polished.