Star Wars: Episode 7, 8... and BEYOND!

[X-SOLDIER]

Important things about Luke.

Spoiler

The reason that we're not introduced into the awesome Jedi Master who ran the academy is all explained in what's probably the most important thing that Yoda says, "We are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters."

If Luke doesn't have flaws that Rey can build herself up past, she's never going to escape his shadow – which she HAS to as the main character of this trilogy. Luke was already built up beyond Anakin in not falling to the Dark, so the Prequel Trilogy had that baked in and could make Anakin as OP as they wanted to. Just like Ben trying to be a new & better Darth Vader, if Vader lacked some character shortcomings, there would've been no way he could move beyond the heights that Vader achieved. Ben manages to achieve the things that Vader failed at:
• Overcoming the control of his master.
• Taking his master's place as the most powerful Dark Side Force user.
By the same token, we see Rey needing to learn to focus on the present and not abandon the past (like Ben) or get too caught up in looking to the future (like Luke).

We see Luke when he's weak – just like we see Obi-Wan lying to Luke, and dying at the hands of Vader in the OT, because those are things that Luke can eventually overcome. Yoda's an old frog in a swamp, and straight up tells Luke to abandon his friends if he truly cares about what they're fighting for. The Jedi masters are the rough stones that sharpen the blades of their students, and they can't continue to be the central icons, because then their students will be trapped. The role of the Jedi Master is a difficult one, and it's different from the role that Luke would've had when he first started his Academy. There're almost 30 years of the classic George Lucas Luke Skywalker where Luke is still the main character.

Again, we're talking about THE LEGENDARY LUKE FUCKING SKYWALKER AS A FULL-ON JEDI MASTER and the trilogy NEEDS to have Rey move beyond him. Giving us the Luke that we all have most wanted would serve the inner geeks who wanted to see him be everything he could ever have been in all his glory from the start, but doing that would completely undercut the story of our characters to make it HIS story – which it isn't anymore.

So, instead, we get to focus on Luke being the catalyst of everything that kicked off because of a moment of weakness, and directly address the Hubris and disillusionment with the Jedi and the very nature of the Force itself that he's been wrestling with – because he's looking into the future and not focused on the present – which has always been Luke's primary weakness, and we get to see him still learn from it, and also make Rey stronger by forcing her to rely on Ben and build a relationship with him that will affect both of them moving forward, since they see something that they BOTH care about in each other, since they lack any other relationship and would've had a solely combative relationship otherwise.

Mark Hamill has the right vision for Luke – IF – Luke was still the main character of the films. I'd love to've seen THAT Luke (and would still love to if we get a series about his Jedi Academy), but the story that the new Trilogy set out to tell has moved past that point where Luke is most important as an absolutely legendary and immortal icon of the light – which he still gets to be in his confrontation with Ben, while also addressing his flaws in a way that allows the new characters to grow beyond what they became.

EDIT: On Finn & Rose:

Spoiler

I'm curious what you mean about that, because their story is supposed to feel tonally different, specifically because they're fighting a different KIND of fight, and shifting what the focus of the Resistance needs to be if they want to spread across the galaxy and bring hope to people. Their hope isn't blowing up the bad guys, but in doing little things like saving things that can't save themselves, just because it's the right thing to do.

X

 

[looneymoon]

Spoiler

It's not the fact that there is a tonal shift that's the problem. Films ca have a tonal shift and have it work well, even better when use to the effect of increasing the impact of the film. My problem is the mosaic of what is shown on the screen does not do this to affect. The whole arc goes one way, then shifts a different way to climax at... what? A showdown with Phasma, who barely appeared at all prior? Rose saving Finn's life in order some heavy handedly explanation to the audience the what the films underlying moral is? Both these things read as over dramatic and half assed because the dramatic action of everything that came prior in this arc simply did not take it there. I understand the intent well and all, it was simply not good writing. The only reason it works at all is because it relies on so many clichés so as to make it at least passable writing. I feel like this section of the film is what most people are talking about when they criticize it for feeling like the standard Marvel formula with Star Wars casing.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Spoiler

It's not the fact that there is a tonal shift that's the problem. Films ca have a tonal shift and have it work well, even better when use to the effect of increasing the impact of the film. My problem is the mosaic of what is shown on the screen does not do this to effect. The whole arc goes one way, then shifts a different way to climax at... what? A showdown with Phasma, who barely appeared at all prior? Rose saving Finn's life in order some heavy handedly explanation to the audience the what the films underlying moral is? Both these things read as over dramatic and half assed because the dramatic action of everything that came prior in this arc simply did not take it there. I understand the intent well and all, it was simply not good writing. The only reason it works at all is because it relies in so many clichés so as to make it at least passable writing. I feel like this section of the film is what most people are talking about when they criticize it for feeling like the standard Marvel formula with Star Wars casing.

AH, ok. So lemme hit at the whys for that, and I'm gonna go over the whole arc of theirs from start to finish, and why I don't think that there is a single bit of weakness in it.

Spoiler

Finn starts as someone who is defined by two things:
• He cares about making sure that Rey is Safe.
• He cares about escaping from the First Order, because they're insurmountable as an opponent.

Rose starts believing in the Resistance, BUT:
• Is shaken by learning that her heroes are fallible, and not the icons she idolizes them as.
• The fight that they're engaging in is only resulting in destroying the things that matter to her.

Canto Bight offers her a chance to be a hero as a regular everyday person and save the people in the Resistance, by giving them a chance to escape the tracker, and gives Finn a chance to prove that he can actually be a hero (that still involves successfully running away).

When they get there, we see the immediate split, where Finn sees the beauty of the place, where Rose can't see past the ugly underside of it all. Their mission to complete the task that they're doing gets completely stopped by the mundane issues of this world – they're jailed for a parking violation, and it brings the normal "important journey of the heroes" to a grinding halt, because what they're faced with is actually mort important. As a cog of the First Order and military, Finn gets to see that there is something much MUCH bigger than just the "Side A" and "Side B" and Rose is stopped by the memories of her own childhood and the injustices everywhere that the Resistance isn't resolving.

This is where DJ comes in as the, "Live Free, Don't Play." middle ground. They don't trust him, and as they get to know him, he starts to reveal that his attitude is forged specifically BECAUSE the cogs of the war machine are so entrenched, that it's lost any meaning to him, and he only cares about money, but in the opposite way that people in Canto Bight care about money.

That's why, when he lets them out – they don't join him, they run. They run into the Fathier stables. That's where they encounter the kids who's the stable hands, and in this messed up world, they run into the first people that they ASK for help and plant the seed of what the Resistance actually IS when they trade her ring to get the little kid to not trigger the alarm. They see the bad that's happened here to them and the Falthier, and they set them free to help them escape. They smash through the city and wreck all the little trappings of Canto Bight with the very things that they were oppressing. It's catharsis for Rose (Finn tells her to stop enjoying this, because he's still focused on the escape and she's overcome with what she's doing).

Once they end up at the edge of the cliff, Finn states that even if they get caught (and thus their mission fails) that it was still worth it, and it's only after Rose dismounts and frees the LAST Falthier that carried them from its saddle and sends it off to its herd that "NOW it's worth it." Now we've contextualized that Finn understands the conflict that exists beyond just the two sides who are at war, and that there are other types of victories that can be won that he can learn to believe in. That's when DJ & BB-8 come back to save the day, and introduce the next beat.

We get to contact Poe and reestablish the state of the Resistance forces, to place focus back into the side of the conflict that both Finn & Rose have built up a belief in. This is where Finn learns from DJ that the people they just fought against are funding BOTH SIDES. This is where Finn is presented with the issue that that the people who support both sides AND the people who support no side are equally to blame. DJ sees it as, "they get you today, you'll get them tomorrow" so his lack of allegiance is the same as someone who knowingly supports both sides. This is where he starts to learn his conviction in accepting that he's not just running away or helping who's convenient, it's about him BEING a part of the Rebellion/Resistance (there's a slow shift in terms throughout the film from Resistance back to Rebellion as the message about being the Spark progresses).

They go to the place where they get caught because of BB-9E noticing them (thanks BB-H8), and they all get captured and taken for execution. DJ saves his own skin by giving information that uncovers the makeshift cloaking that the rebels are using on their transports – betraying Finn & Rose and solidifying that he's still not a "good guy" because he believes that term is made up, and he's only concerned with himself – he's a mirror for who Finn used to be as he walks away.

Finn – now changed, and with Rose suffering the consequences that he wasn't concerned with when he was on the escape pod, is now faced with both of their executions, and the symbol of everything that he fears in the First Order – Captain Phasma, surrounded by a legion of troopers. She brings back the memory that his designation is FN-2187, and serves as a reminder for everything that he was as a piece of this machine, and how helpless it feels against that... and Admiral Holdo kamikaze's the Raddus into the Supremacy.

Finn wakes to Rose attempting to drag his unconscious body again. Rather than attempting to drag him into the brig for being a deserter, now she's dragging him to an escape ship, because she sees him as the hero that she had always believed that he was after their time together. That's when Phasma reenters with a squad of Troopers, and Finn believes in himself enough to actively grab a weapon and openly challenge her. He's standing up against everything that he's run away from, and is BEING that hero that people believe that he is. Phasma calls him scum, and he OWNS the term, as "Rebel Scum" because now he genuinely believes in it, and in himself. That's why his defeat of Phasma is when he shatters her helmet and sees the person beneath it. He sees the icon of the First Order's Army differently than he did in The Force Awakens, where he wants to show off with Han Solo at his side, but where he feels the confidence to stand alone against the things he's the most afraid of.

Then we move down to Crait, where Finn & Rose are both on the Speeders heading towards the battering ram cannon. This is where Finn takes all the lessons that he's learned about classic heroics, confidence, and sacrifice, and goes to do what we see the brave, selfless iconic hero do – sacrifice himself to save others. This is where Rose intervenes. Everything in Rose's story has seen Finn start as the person she wanted to believe in, was let down by, and saw become the hero she thought he was and more, and the war that the Resistance is fighting is just going to destroy him, like it took her sister – to pointlessly take out a weapon because that's what is expected in good guys vs. bad guys – So she smashes him out of the way.

Finn – with all of his new realizations in utter confusion runs to her to ask why, because he doesn't understand. He's doing all the things that he felt conviction for, and that he believed in, for the right reasons, but she stopped him, and she says, "I saved you, dummy. That's how we're gonna win. Not by destroying what we hate, but by saving what we love." Kiss & Explosion of the door being broken to solidify and redefine the INCREDIBLE importance of that concept, as it's the most important thing in the entire film. There's a moment of love and realization on top of what's seen as the First Order still achieving victory in cracking open the door to the base.

At the same time, we learn that no one is answering the call from the Resistance, and Leia believes that the Spark is dead. Then Luke appears, being that Spark that they needed him to be, and also when Leia says that her son is gone tells her, "No one's ever truly gone" (which is especially poignant in light of the story and Carrie's passing). Then while Luke marches out, Finn drags Rose into the base incredibly anxious for a medpack to save her, and he immediately applies the concept she taught him, and tells Poe that they have to go help Luke. Poe – who's gone through his own developments – declines the easy opening to hurt the First Order in a big final assault, and looks at the bigger picture. He recognizes that this is Luke giving them the opportunity to save the entirety of the Resistance, and save that Spark, and they make their way through the tunnels to their faithful YT-1400 transport ship, where they all escape. As Luke Skywalker saves the day in a moment of absolutely legendary Force prowess and insight, he offers a very specific line about this to Ben: "The Rebellion is reborn today." (shows Poe) "The war is just beginning." (shows Finn). "And I will not be the last Jedi" (shows Rey) – His line here wraps up all of the arcs that all of these characters go through and directly speaks the confrontation that is set into motion for Episode IX.

Then at the VERY end we move back to the Canto Bight kids. They believe in the Resistance, after meeting Finn & Rose, and they're telling the story about Luke. The kid is Force sensitive, and is wearing the ring and dreaming of being a legendary Jedi as he looks up into the stars. That Spark of Rebellion was lit, and it's becoming the Fire that's going to burn the First Order down. And Finn & Rose are responsible for that.

X

 

[looneymoon]

I mean, thats a really good detailed summary of the movie I watched. Not convinced that it was executed well, but I appreciate the enthusiasm

 

[Carlie]

To be fair, I have a hard time recalling X ever reacting to anything without unwavering optimism

Just for the record, Transformers 4 & Snowpiercer are about the only two bits of media that I can think of that've ever broken me of positivity in reviewing and such. Also, The Force Awakens II insofar as games are concerned. It's a definite rarity, but it does happen.




X

I think you were also very critical of either Star Trek: Into Darkness or Star Trek: Beyond which isn't surprising as neither are very good.

 

[Lex]

I've got to say I don't know how I manage to be surprised by how fickle fandoms can be but the number of people now saying shit like "mouse canon is not canon" and "if it's not George Lucas it's not star wars" is absolutely hilarious. Considering how celebrated it was when George Lucas finally let the franchise go (in a sense) XD.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I mean, thats a really good detailed summary of the movie I watched. Not convinced that it was executed well, but I appreciate the enthusiasm

I was more curious which of those bits wasn't well executed in your view, as I'm trying to get a better understanding of where other folks who disliked X & Y are comings from.

To be fair, I have a hard time recalling X ever reacting to anything without unwavering optimism

Just for the record, Transformers 4 & Snowpiercer are about the only two bits of media that I can think of that've ever broken me of positivity in reviewing and such. Also, The Force Awakens II insofar as games are concerned. It's a definite rarity, but it does happen.

I think you were also very critical of either Star Trek: Into Darkness or Star Trek: Beyond which isn't surprising as neither are very good.

Ah, yeah. STID was a gorgeous series of vignettes that failed as a cohesive story, and I remember very little about STB. It's the one thing that makes me a bit nervous about JJ taking over wrapping the story up, since he's historically great at posing questions, but not the best at following up on them.

I've got to say I don't know how I manage to be surprised by how fickle fandoms can be but the number of people now saying shit like "mouse canon is not canon" and "if it's not George Lucas it's not star wars" is absolutely hilarious. Considering how celebrated it was when George Lucas finally let the franchise go (in a sense) XD.

Oh, it brings me NOTHING but schadenfreude, because it's all coming from folks who have this really dumb and toxic sense of ownership over Star Wars (as if it was only a nerd thing), and seeing them struggle with it and even rage about it makes me glad that the people who're a bit more level-headed will cool off after a period of time, but the people who're the most shitty will be less involved with the Star Wars fandom – especially once Rian Johnson moves and starts off his own trilogy.





X

 

[The G'randiest' Daddy]

Oh man, X, you are making me want to watch this movie again. After TFA I was seriously bummed out. I felt like the new trilogy had nothing new to say, that it was just going to be (as some dude on the internet put it) "Hey guys, remember Star Wars?". I mean, I enjoyed, but I haven't rewatched it even once.

Now though, I'm okay with it, if only because it led directly to TLJ being made, and TLJ is SO. FUCKING. AWESOME.

I need to see it again.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I really can't overstate how much better TLJ is upon a second viewing. I think that my favourite reaction is from Father Rodrick (whose full spoiler review I'm really looking forward to), and I think it really matches how I felt after both viewings:

X

 

[Clement Rage]

Spoiler

I feel like Luke could have worked if the film had been willing to lay the groundwork for it properly. But they didn't. They skipped straight to Luke standing over his nephew's bed with a lit lightsabre, without bothering to go into any of the reasons he had for doing that, or Kylo's reasons for being tempted by Snoke.

Passing a torch is perfectly possible without killing the person holding it before you. Building up Rey does not require tearing down Luke. I'm not saying this as someone who can't bear to see him denigrated. I'm saying this as someone that thinks killing the character you don't know what to do with is rarely a mark of good writing.

I'm kind of impressed by Disney's nerve in making a film that thematically tries to call out the previous films due to battles between good and evil continuing as long as they're profitable, while deliberately prolonging a previously completed series built around battles between good and evil because it's profitable.

Disliking this more and more as time passes. 6/10 at best, which is quite low by my standards.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Spoiler

I'll actually fully disagree with your first point here. The purpose of the flashbacks are to explain the failure that Luke is grappling with, and how it tipped the balance with Ben because that's a lesson for Rey. She's there to learn what Luke's failure with Ben was and how to try and overcome that. The specifics of what brought Ben to Snoke are already clear – he's tempted by the power of his grandfather as "the heir apparent to Darth Vader." That is the fundamental groundwork of what tempted him, there's nothing else really important. On top of that we're also introduced to the fact that Snoke has exceptional powers to enter someone's mind and read their thoughts, such that betrayal is nearly impossible, so much like the relationship between Vader & Palpatine, we've seen that sort of thing before enough that the specifics aren't meaningful to the current discussion / lesson that's being told. In essence, all of that information IS already there.

Additionally, torch passing is possible without killing the person holding it, but there's also a bigger picture at play in terms of the balance of the Cosmic Force. Rey & Ben are explicitly stated to be the balance for one another, and it can be inferred that Snoke – who explicitly isn't a Sith – came about as the balance to Luke's power. That's why when Snoke is defeated, Luke's passing is a way of maintaining the balance in the Force, and shifting the focus on to Rey & Ben with the lessons from the film that involve that the Light & Dark always coexist, and the fight is about saving what you love, not destroying what you hate, and how that can be achieved where our two Force Users currently stand.

I actually think that it's exceptionally appropriate, given that IX will close out the Skywalker Saga, and Rian Johnson is getting a whole trilogy of stories that are completely removed from anything that's been covered before, so it's also a message that there's a lot more to Star Wars than just the conflict that we've been seeing over and over – to the point of feeling overused.





X

 

[Clement Rage]

Spoiler

One could argue that the reasons for the failure are highly relevant to how to overcome it. When she goes to redeem him, isn't it important to know why he fell in the first place?

I'm curious as to where this need to 'close out' the Skywalker Saga comes from. That story was already complete. The Skywalkers don't prevent other stories from being told in the Universe. They don't prevent other Force users from rising. They're not the only people that decide the fate of the Galaxy.

Where does this sudden need to present them as a taint on the universe that must be expunged come from? I'm seeing it around a lot over the past few days.

 

[The G'randiest' Daddy]

I don't see it as being a taint or anything (though they did fuck up quite a bit). It's just that everything else kind of falls in the shadow of the Skywalker legacy, and that isn't necessary. We can have new stories, new characters, without having them always call back to the Skywalkers - but then it would be best if we have some resolution to their saga.

 

[Airling]

Here's the thing though: more casual fans and viewers who like the films but aren't really too invested in everything, would not really have enjoyed something like that, and they make up a very large part of the money in this. They would have gone into a series like the one Johnson is planning, and not gone to watch anything but the first film, because their hearts have been stolen by the Skywalkers. Who can blame them?

And watching TLJ I realised that maybe things weren't as done and dusted at the end of RotJ as I always believed. Why would balance be restored permanently just because two people died?

Spoiler

And so, they're finalising both of those things in this trilogy. After this, there won't be any Han, or Luke, and all things considered, Leia will probably be gone too. So that those fans, who in spite of their passing interest have had 40 years to become attached to those characters can have some closure, and can move on to all the other magnificent things the Star Wars universe has to offer. And bring their money with them.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Spoiler

One could argue that the reasons for the failure are highly relevant to how to overcome it. When she goes to redeem him, isn't it important to know why he fell in the first place?

I'm curious as to where this need to 'close out' the Skywalker Saga comes from. That story was already complete. The Skywalkers don't prevent other stories from being told in the Universe. They don't prevent other Force users from rising. They're not the only people that decide the fate of the Galaxy.

Where does this sudden need to present them as a taint on the universe that must be expunged come from? I'm seeing it around a lot over the past few days.

Spoiler

That's her challenge for the next film, where she needs to dig more into him from the relationship that they established in this film. The challenge in this film was to be able to empathize with someone she feels is an irredeemable monster at the end of VII, which she does by learning about the issues surrounding the moment when he turned involving Luke's failure, thus tying in a lesson about that failure to the process, and framing her understanding of Ben as a character.

That need to close out the Skywalker Saga comes from the fact that the Episodic Films are explicitly called "The Skywalker Saga" – so anything taking place in "Star Wars Episode #" is a part of the Skywalker Saga. The moment that they made Star Wars Episode 7 as the start of a new trilogy, they were creating a new story in the Skywalker Saga to serve as an endcap to it. Additionally, there ARE many other stories to be told that aren't a part of the Skywalker Saga with both the "Star Wars Story" films as well as Rian Johnson's new trilogy. (There're two whole other threads about them for that reason).

Also, I'd never frame the Skywalkers as a taint that the Galaxy needs to be expunged from, so I haven't the faintest idea where that sentiment's coming from. The Skywalkers are the biggest legacy to the Cosmic Force, beginning with Anakin as the Chosen One, and all the prophesy of him destroying the Sith and bringing balance to the Force. The closest thing to that would be

Spoiler

making it so that Rey wasn't a Skywalker by birth, but by legacy of the balance of the Force, because it dismantled the idea that the Force itself was contained in some sort of royal lineage of the Skywalkers that was all over the Legends EU.

Here's the thing though: more casual fans and viewers who like the films but aren't really too invested in everything, would not really have enjoyed something like that, and they make up a very large part of the money in this. They would have gone into a series like the one Johnson is planning, and not gone to watch anything but the first film, because their hearts have been stolen by the Skywalkers. Who can blame them?

And watching TLJ I realised that maybe things weren't as done and dusted at the end of RotJ as I always believed. Why would balance be restored permanently just because two people died?

Spoiler

And so, they're finalising both of those things in this trilogy. After this, there won't be any Han, or Luke, and all things considered, Leia will probably be gone too. So that those fans, who in spite of their passing interest have had 40 years to become attached to those characters can have some closure, and can move on to all the other magnificent things the Star Wars universe has to offer. And bring their money with them.

That's the whole reason that they've been slowly expanding out the types of films. It's been apparent for YEARS because of the Legends Canon that people are interested in hearing more stories with Star Wars as a setting. Clone Wars & Rebels broke a lot of that ground with kids – because they're the best barrier of entry for that stuff (remember when everyone hated Ahsoka?), and they've been expanding outside of the Skywalker Saga by using familiar jumping off points with the Star Wars Stories (Rogue One, Han, & Obi-Wan), and then by letting Rian Johnson run and tell a totally new story in the first non-Skywalker-Saga trilogy.

TLJ is really the tipping point both literally and metaphorically where the new Star Wars stuff has to step outside of the shadow of its own legacy and show that it has more to offer than just nostalgia – even moreso, because that's what TFA used to let audiences know that things were in good hands, so that the initial shock and backlash that people experienced during the Prequel Era would come to happen once they'd already shown that they were capable. The loud and angry Star Wars fans were ALWAYS going to come around as soon as there was change, and that change always had to come if the series and stories were ever going to expand in new directions.




X

 

[Clement Rage]

I'm not sure there was such a need to close out the story. One of Star Wars' greatest strengths is how vast the universe is, you can do all kinds of stories without anyone really batting an eye. I don't know if you're familiar with Legend of Korra, which had a similar 'new generation' where the old guard were just retired or busy in various ways, and it worked.

Re: Skywalkers as taint, here is one of the places I've seen it. There's a fair amount of sentiment in the forums and reviews I'm looking around at of 'now we finally get to move beyond one family' 'now lineage isn't the only thing that's important'(which was never true, that's overlooking the likes of Kenobi). There was nothing stopping that from happening anyway, it's TFA that made the choice to repeat the old dynamics. It was a choice, not a necessity.

Telling new stories is fine, nobody (well, relatively few, because this is still Star Wars) has an issue with that, but there almost seems to be a sense for some that they're inherently rising above or surpassing the old narratives 'now we can tell real stories, not the silly binary narratives' (which also wasn't the case in the first place).

Sorry about this, I make too many of these posts.

Some final thoughts on the actual film...

One joke I thought they missed an opportunity for was when

Spoiler

the porgs are watching Chewbacca eat, I completely thought they were going to do a cut to him roasting the three new ones too.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

My point is the Episodic Films' whole purpose HAS to be about the Skywalker Legacy in some capacity. That's just a hard rule. That's why the Episodic Films are called the Skywalker Saga. Each Episodic Trilogy closes out a part of that story and moves focus elsewhere, which is why we're always talking about IX closing out the Skywalker Saga. If in the future, they make "Star Wars Episode X, XI, & XII" they're going to be a part of the Skywalker Saga, because that's the rule. That's why they're finding other formats and naming conventions for the other films, but these ones are moving beyond the legacy of the last Skywalker generation. (Also, Korra has the benefit of being an animated series that can jump around without taking actors and their aging into account, and also not being limited to three 2-hour films).

I think that people are misunderstanding the underlying reason for moving beyond the Skywalkers' legacy. It's shaking it up, so that ANYONE can be a powerful Force user without any need to be a part of a genetic lineage, and that opens it up more for everyone, and for broader storytelling because of how Luke was left at the end of RotJ and Anakin's Legacy making him into such a conceptually unassailable figure.

Spoiler

That's what makes Rey's power being from the Cosmic Force balancing out Ben's powers, but her family as nobodies so important. The Skywalkers still shape the nature of the Force in a powerful way, but it's not all singularly limited to them & only them. They don't need to be eliminated at all either. If anything, their bloodline ensures that there will always be powerful Force users elsewhere, and maintaining the Balance properly is a part of that, and what's so exciting about where this film brought things.

Also, that would've been hilarious, but

Spoiler

I think would've made it so that the other comedic moments of them invading and nesting all over the Falcon would've been out,
and I enjoyed those ones.

X

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

"Moving past the Skywalkers" isn't an insult to them. It's just something that has to be done.

Remember when the "Halloween" franchise was going to tell different horror stories, and Michael Myers was just the introductory outing with the first two movies? Then they went in a different direction for one movie and fans went mutiny?

Yeah.

Just taking off in new directions with "Star Wars" without acknowledging and resolving the past narrative significance of the Skywalkers that is common knowledge to anyone who has at least heard of the franchise over these past 40 years? Try a million times worse an idea.

 

[looneymoon]

Spoiler

The whole "kill you idols" angle is really what makes Rey, Finn, and Poe so likeable for me. They are essentially young Star Wars nerd trying to live up to the image of their Heroes. That to me makes them work as avatars for the directors, as well as the audience.

I feel like this is the right direction to take considering.... Rogue One. It's no secret how much I disliked Rogue One as far as the "non-Skywalker" angle is concerned. I can't remember any other movie in recent memory where I was so fucking relieved that the main 2 characters died. Dying felt like the only interesting thing that could happen to those two pieces of wet toast

 

[Airling]

I would really have started to get frustrated if they'd taken the Skywalker Saga too much further anyway, since the force doesn't move genetically. Three consecutive generations of people ridiculously strong in the force is already boundary area for me.

 

[Super Mario]

TLJ was very enjoyable to me but I feel it missed alot of opportunities of some threads to continue from TFA, considering it continued immediately after instead of a time skip like A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back, I can understand it's need to branch out and be original (which I admire) but was it really necessary to

Spoiler

kill Snoke and Phasma? I don't mind Snoke since they are trying to prove to the audience of Kylo Ren's more dangerous side but why the fuck do they have to kill Phasma? She is so badass that I felt Rian Johnson never let her exceed her potential before killing her off.

I will honour this warrior by spamming her in Battlefront 2 when I get it later. I also loved the

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fight between the Praetorian guard vs. Rey and Kylo Ren. It's like seeing Destiny 2 players hired by Snoke to guard him and they all went SUPREMACY mode on the two.

Ironic, considering Snoke's ship name too. XD

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I think that for

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Snoke & Phasma, it's all about what their characters' purpose is.

Phasma exists in order to be a representation of the First Order that Finn fears, and having to have him face off against that without Han or Rey by his side, or as his motivation. The Art Book mentions the necessity for Rey & Finn to be away from each other in TLJ, since it means that they both lose their safety blankets to grow before coming back to each other stronger on their own. Phasma is the core representation of Finn's fear of the First Order as an unstoppable, faceless war machine, and his confrontation against her is at the tail end of that. They COULD have left her alive, but that's too close to what they did before with the trash compacter. Finn needed to have that battle in this film in order to put him in a place where he's ready to stand beside all of his allies moving forward for the finale, because the final film needs everyone's motivations firmly in place, so that we get to focus primarily on moving them into place and facing the overwhelming trials that they have set before them.

On that note, that's the other reason that Snoke needed to die here. Ben IS the central focus of EVERYTHING going into IX. Once Snoke talks about the balance of Rey & Ben, it's clear that this is where the culmination of the Skywalker Saga is pointing. The Prequel Trilogy was about upsetting everything and initially achieving the Balance, but Darkness taking over. The Original Trilogy is about destroying the Darkness, and the Skywalkers taking center stage. This Trilogy is about how the Skywalker Legacy in the balance impacts everything moving on. Snoke – as interesting as he is as a Force of Darkness from the Unknown Region – is ultimately there because of Luke (insofar as the Balance), but also because Ben needed a way to surpass Vader NOW and take steps beyond that, so that his & Rey's confrontation in IX has time to mature. Luke & Vader had their inherently understood Father/Son dynamic, but Rey & Ben are each others' Yin & Yang. We need to let that grow, so that their final confrontation isn't one that's spur-of-the-moment emotionally driven thing around the death of his master like RotJ, but comes from the understanding that they each have for one another from their connections, and in the time that they spend without anyone else over them. They're dropped into the positions of "leadership" as representatives of the Force, and how their confrontation comes together is what's so important about the final piece. Removing Snoke takes away the safety blanket that RotJ had where you get to save the bad guy AND kill the worse bad guy. Ben is THE GUY, and everything's closing in on him & Rey. That's what the final film needs, in order to let all of the new characters take center stage and own their own trilogy.

On other note, I'm really interested in seeing some of the deleted scenes.

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There's some extra extravagance and such around Canto Bight, as well as Luke's third lesson that directly involves the Caretaker village. In hearing about them, it makes sense why they were removed (in addition to the fact that TLJ is already the longest Star Wars film), but it'll still be neat to check out all of the little things that they had in them visually if nothing else.

X

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

X, you should really compile all of your observations into a "Making the Case for 'The Last Jedi'" blog or site thing. You've really helped me unpack and appreciate it, and I'm sure you would be able to do the same for a lot of "Star Wars" fans who want to like it, yet are just unsure what to make of it.

On a semi-related but mostly unrelated note, the only thing that I find myself disagreeing with you on in your ever-evolving analysis is the understanding that

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the prophecy was fulfilled and balance brought to the Force at the end of RotJ. I don't believe any of this would be happening were that the case, nor would there be such necessity now for letting such dogmatic concepts as Sith and Jedi fade away.

If anything, what happened at the end of RotJ tipped the balance too far back toward equilibrium, such that it went beyond that and into a reversed imbalance -- creating a void the Force allowed Snoke to fill.

If balance is to be achieved, I don't think it's going to be by overthrowing or euthanizing Dark Side users. At least not by that alone.

If Ben doesn't survive this trilogy to provide half of the balance (with Rey providing the other half), then Rey is going to need to become a Grey Force user.

 

[Super Mario]

I have one puzzling question: now that

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the Sith died with Lord Vader, and they as a religion are extinct for 30+ years, what is left to fill the void? I like Ren's development because he doesn't hide behind the Vader wannabe mask anymore and evolved times larger than what I saw of him in TFA. Will he become a Sith? Or is it something this new era wants to branch away from so badly? In his words: "Let the past die"?

I also somewhat disagree on

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Phasma's 'death', I like that you made it clear she needed to be defeated to allow Finn to grow as a character but I felt she could have been utilized more. Say like in Canto Blight, pursuing them thoroughly. Frankly I felt Canto Blight needed some First Order presence, spies or something before she came for his final showdown and be saved by DJ and the like before their epic 1 v 1 battle. Not saying the final format is bad, I just wish they gave her something more to do... You know, like what they promised between TFA and this film that she was to have more screen time? Boba Fett had more to do in Empire rather than be a final boss in a character's arc.

Yes! I am a Phasma fan <3 She's one of the finer additions to the new era's cast. She is up there for me with Kenobi, Darth Vader, Boba and Jango Fett for favourites.

 

[vaderSW1]

So, I have taken about week to really ponder my feelings on TLJ. Heavy spoilers ahead:

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I'll start out by saying that the film was beautifully shot. The visuals were absolutely gorgeous. I though Rian really knocked it out of the park when it came to the camera work. I also feel like he pulled out a terrific performance from Mark Hamill. In fact, probably my favorite moment of the film was Luke talking to R2 in the Falcon. When R2 started playing the message from ANH, I cried. It was a terrific emotional beat. Especially given that Carrie is gone now. I also really enjoyed the Kylo & Rey fight with Snoke's guards. Outside of those things, that is really where my glowing remarks for this film end.

What follows are the thoughts of a life long Star Wars fan that truly enjoyed the original EU novels that carried the Star Wars fandom for years...

I felt like the entire thing was a disheveled mess. It jumped around far too much between plot points. One plot in particular could have just as easily been done away with completely or restructured, more on that in a bit. The whole last act seemed like a colossal waste and didn't really pay off. In all honesty, I felt like I was watching a Star Wars film that was directed and written by someone that had no reverence or knowledge whatsoever for Star Wars. I really didn't care for all the jokes in the film. They were far too "real world" and modern at times. There were seriously times where I felt like Rian didn't know what the hell Star Wars was and decided to just take the characters and put them in a Guardians of the Galaxy-like setting. I'm okay with some light-hearted beats if they are done in a proper context. There were times when I found myself wondering if some of these jokes are Rian laughing at Star Wars fans instead of with them.

I had a HUGE issue with the way that the character of Luke Skywalker was written. A very large part of me was incredibly disgusted. Of all the directions to take the story of Luke Skywalker, you choose to take the bitter old man route? I feel like TLJ takes a huge steaming dump on the story and legacy of Luke. I can think of 1,000 different ways to tell the story of why Luke secluded himself. And none of them would have included turning him into a spiteful old man. There were some good moments with Luke but they were very few, IMO. Most of the time I just felt like Mark was playing a bad caricature of Luke and, honestly, it took me aback so much that it just took me right out of the story/film. I hated the story they told about Luke trying to kill Kylo/Ben in his sleep. It flies in the face of everything we know about Luke. This was a terribly constructed piece of story telling and one that I felt was totally unnecessary. Just about the only piece of Luke's story that I liked, aside from the moment on the Falcon, was his brief interaction with Yoda. The point that Yoda was driving home to him was good. In fact, I probably should add that I very much enjoyed that they took Yoda back to his snarky ESB-era self. Although, I was not very impressed with the puppet itself. There was something very wrong with his head. He looked off. I also was taken aback by Yoda actually being able to take solid form and hit Luke with his cane. I can't recall in any previously established Star Wars lore that Force ghosts were able to take solid form. That's a small gripe though for an, otherwise, decent scene.

Speaking of things that took me right out of the film...let's talk about Leia's "Space Ghost" moment briefly. What the serious fuck? We are expected to swallow a lot of pills when watching science fiction. This was a pill that I could not swallow at all. At NO point in any of the established Star Wars lore (that I am aware of) has a force-attuned individual been able to survive being blown up into space. Much less, floating out there for several minutes and then being able to "Space Ghost" fly back to their ship! My wife and best friend were sitting beside me at the theatre. When this happened we all looked at each other and had looks as if to say "what the fuck just happened?" It was so ridiculously bad. I am perfectly okay with Leia being able to use the Force. In fact, I find that fucking awesome. There would have been MUCH better ways of showing this. Terrible part of the film and terrible use of the Force.

Next, a few things on Adam Driver. I've never really seen Adam in anything other that TFA and TLJ. One thing I noticed about Adam is his tendency to overact. This was on full display in TLJ, specifically during the awful Battle of Crait. He chews up the scenery so much during the last 45 minutes of the film that it was almost laughable. I don't know if it's that Adam can't act or if Rian was just terrible at trying to pull out a solid performance from him. Also, is it just me, or does he constantly look like he is on the verge of bursting out crying like a petulant child?

Okay...so about Finn, Rose, and Canto Bight. Fuck this whole story arc. Fuck Rose. Fuck Finn. Fuck DJ. Fuck everything about this entire arc. This WHOLE arc could have been cut from the film and it would not have been missed at all. This arc served very little purpose. I felt like it was a colossal waste of time. The following things I will concede: Yes, it set up for what happens at the end of the film. Yes, it sets up for DJ to pull a "Lando" and betray them. Yes, it even serves the point of an awful love story arc. Wait...what? Where in the flying fuck did that even come from? The whole Finn/Rose love story was so poorly done and completely out of left field that it made Anakin and Padme's romance in Episode II seem Shakespearean. What I think I dislike even more for Finn though is he got very little character development in this film. It almost feels like his entire story arc was an afterthought. It was filler. Not to mention, we finally get to see him face Phasma in combat. AND THEY TURNED PHASMA INTO THIS GENERATION'S BOBA FUCKING FETT!! God dammit.

Let me speak on Phasma briefly...so TFA really made this big deal about making her a key part of the marketing. Hell, she was even featured fairly prominently in the marketing for TLJ. However, she was sort of a joke in TFA. And then goes down like a punk in TLJ. Fuck...I feel like she deserved so much better.

Speaking of going out like a punk...FUCKING Snoke. You know, I didn't really have any expectations for what we would learn about Snoke. I saw all the fan theories and shit that floated around the interwebs and I chose not to read them. I didn't want to be disappointed. I still fucking found myself disappointed anyway. We learned nothing about him except that he apparently dies just as easy as anyone else. I actually enjoyed the scenes with Snoke chastising and sort of prodding at Kylo Ren. I enjoyed the exposition he gave on how it was possible that Rey and Kylo were able to communicate with each other from across the galaxy. Then he gets just gets Darth Maul'd. He didn't even get to fucking fight. He just gets cut in half while sitting in his chair gloating. God dammit. No lightsaber duels in this film up to this point. This would have been a GREAT spot for this. Instead, we got NO LIGHTSABER duels at all in this film.

Hux...he's just a fucking laughing stock. It was completely impossible to take him seriously or menacing at all in this film. His character serves no purpose. Awful writing for him.

The story of Rey's parentage. I'm not as disappointed about what they revealed as I am about some of the other stupid shit that happened in this film. It does make me wonder, however, if Kylo wasn't telling the truth? I thought the whole thing with Rey in the dark side cave seeing the reflections of herself was cool, albeit strange. I thought it was pretty well done.

I actually walked out of the viewing pondering if I ever wanted to see another Star Wars film. I have never felt that way about a Star Wars film before. Even with as bad as the prequels were, I still found positives in them. I found things that I truly enjoyed about them. I find myself really grasping for things that I enjoyed about TLJ. Part of me wonders if I might find more respect for it after seeing how JJ chooses to bring this trilogy to a close. I just don't know how you write yourself out of this nightmare. It's going to be a difficult task, no doubt. TLJ has certainly shaken my faith in Rian's ability to take on a whole trilogy of Star Wars films by himself.

I am okay with trying to take Star Wars in a "bold new direction." After all, I didn't want a retelling of ESB. I wanted to love this movie. I was willing to give Disney a chance after how much I ended up really enjoying TFA and Rogue One. However, for me, TLJ made many of my fears come true. It made me feel the disappointment of the removal of the EU all over again. It stings those wounds because of how much love and reverence I have for those novels. So many great stories told. So many great movies some of those stories would have made. It just goes to show that just because you make a choice to take Star Wars in a "bold new direction", it doesn't automatically make it the right choice.