Star Wars: Episode 7, 8... and BEYOND!

[The G'randiest' Daddy]

What I'm going to say next isn't directed at anyone in particular, though I have no doubt it will resonate more with some, and perhaps even offend, for lack of a better word, others. I don't want to argue with anyone - I am a lifelong Star Wars fan, I read dozens if not more of the EU books, played almost all of the games, and had all sorts of different experiences with each of them, as well as all the films. So all this is just personal opinion, and I think that everyone is entitled to their own opinion and/or enjoyment/dislike of everything Star Wars - it is, after all, just fiction.

That said

Spoiler

I feel as though people (in general) take things far too seriously, to the point of making personal opinion regarding Star Wars things into facts, and right and wrong, and black and white. The films, the games, the books, all of it was put together by a diverse crew of writers and storytellers, and often take all new approaches and take things in directions the others didn't. They are also often wildly contradictory.

I do think that stories should try to create a sense of internal consistency, but that was almost never the case with Star Wars (case in point, the Ysalamiri), and yet we as fans want our favourite theories and ideas to be "true". I feel that TLJ stayed true to the spirit of Star Wars - and I can't actually think of anything in it that I haven't seen in some form somewhere else in lore, though I concede I may be mis-remembering. My point is that I think some fan's feelings were hurt due to the immense emotional attachment that we (myself very much included) have to this series. Yet it remains a story, a piece of Star Wars fiction, and I think that all fiction belongs to the story-teller, not the audience.

To me, TLJ feels like the film that justifies TFA. Again, personal opinion, but after TFA, I was a little let down, I felt like I could have just gone to watch ANH again and it would have been the same. But TLJ makes TFA work, because it provides the answers to the questions of TFA, and in some ways ANH (though different answers than those provided by ESB, which is important).

It's so weird to me, because it seems as though we fans have been divided into two camps - those who love TFA, and then hate TLJ, and those who were dissapointed in TFA, but now love TLJ.

TL;DR, fiction's just stories, they can't be wrong, I guess. One can definitely write subjectively bad stories, but someone out there will love them .

But hey, at least most of us liked Rogue One .

 

[X-SOLDIER]

X, you should really compile all of your observations into a "Making the Case for 'The Last Jedi'" blog or site thing. You've really helped me unpack and appreciate it, and I'm sure you would be able to do the same for a lot of "Star Wars" fans who want to like it, yet are just unsure what to make of it.

I'm definitely planning on it. I've been trying to spend all of my spare time chatting with people who weren't fond of the film, so that I could get a better grasp on what that point of view is – and to be sure that I'm not just sitting in an echo chamber of my own opinions.

Additionally

Spoiler

I think that Anakin destroying the Sith (and thus their Rule of Two)
initially set things, so that Luke – someone who was definitely in possession of both Light and Dark was that Balance, but it's the follow-up that brings about Snoke and other things as the Force continues to maintain its balance post-RotJ. Main point – the first time we see the Cosmic Force acting to balance things is after RotJ.

I have one puzzling question: now that

Spoiler

the Sith died with Lord Vader, and they as a religion are extinct for 30+ years, what is left to fill the void? I like Ren's development because he doesn't hide behind the Vader wannabe mask anymore and evolved times larger than what I saw of him in TFA. Will he become a Sith? Or is it something this new era wants to branch away from so badly? In his words: "Let the past die"?

Well, one thing's for sure

Spoiler

he's not a Sith. That was a lineage of succession that goes from Darth Bane to Darth Vader, and with neither Vader or Sidious passing on a successor, that line is properly broken. It'd've been the same thing if Luke didn't pass on being a Jedi to Rey. (It's mentioned in the Visual Dictionary when addressing that Snoke isn't a Sith). I'm actually most interested in what becomes of both of them with the way that the stage is set.

I also somewhat disagree on

Spoiler

Phasma's 'death', I like that you made it clear she needed to be defeated to allow Finn to grow as a character but I felt she could have been utilized more. Say like in Canto Blight, pursuing them thoroughly. Frankly I felt Canto Blight needed some First Order presence, spies or something before she came for his final showdown and be saved by DJ and the like before their epic 1 v 1 battle. Not saying the final format is bad, I just wish they gave her something more to do... You know, like what they promised between TFA and this film that she was to have more screen time? Boba Fett had more to do in Empire rather than be a final boss in a character's arc.

The issue with that is that

Spoiler

the whole purpose of Canto Bight is to expose Finn to the conflict BEYOND the direct battle with the First Order, and see how he feels compelled to act when confronted with right and wrong outside of the black and white dichotomy that he'd been exposed to his whole life as a Stormtrooper. He stands up and does the right thing with Rose on his own, and outside of the "Good Guys" & "Bad Guys" fight, and including Phasma there would've absolutely destroyed that development for him. Canto Bight is ALL ABOUT the people supporting both sides, and people supporting no side (DJ's name is a reference to the purpose his character serves, which is his, "Don't Join" mentality towards the whole conflict).

So, I have taken about week to really ponder my feelings on TLJ.

Gonna just bullet point some quick counter-points to consider to make for easier reading & discussion.

Spoiler

• Luke contemplating killing Ben in his sleep and then coming to his senses just after activating his lightsaber is perfectly in line with Luke flying into a rage when Vader threatens to turn Leia in RotJ, and then coming to his senses after cutting off Vader's hand moments before murdering him in rage. Meets up exactly with Yoda bothering him about having his head always focused in the Future and not in the present. On top of that, Luke wins a massive battle against Ben as well as saving the Resistance by using non-violence, exactly like how he (by believing in Anakin) brought about Palpatine's downfall by throwing away his lightsaber. Luke's character is INCREDIBLY true to the flaws that we see him having in the original trilogy and is compounded by his revelations about the hubris of the Prequel Era Jedi, and the innate relationship between the Light and the Dark. I'd highly recommend rethinking how you view Luke from being the central hero of Star Wars, and look at him as a supporting character.

• Leia's the daughter of Anakin "literally brought to life by the Force" Skywalker, and her brother is the last living Jedi. When Episode 7 came out, at no point in the previous Star Wars canon had anyone used the force to: freeze a blaster bolt in mid-air, hold someone immobile, knock someone out, or forcibly probed their mind for information – but her son Ben is capable of ALL those things in The Force Awakens. There's absolutely no reason to jump on this for being a new Force Power, especially when what she does is essentially just Telekinesis – which is a Force power that's been demonstrated multiple times – since her exposure to being ejected into space leaves her completely incapacitated and in a medbay for most of the film.

• Adam Driver constantly looking like he's, "on the verge of bursting out crying like a petulant child" is exactly the point. Ben's whole character is centered in fear, and feeling like he's constantly falling just short of everything he attempts. Fear >> Anger >> Hatred >> Suffering. He's the absolute extremes of those emotions, and he portrays that perfectly.

• Understanding Canto Bight already has its own post.

• Direct confrontation with Snoke when he can read their minds or just toss them around like puppets is a non-option. Snoke gets killed when Ben bests him at manipulation, which is the biggest barrier that they had to overcome with him, and something there was never an opportunity to before. That's why Ben's never tried until that moment. Palpatine gets tossed down an open shaft after electrocuting Luke who'd tossed away his lightsaber. The previous Dark Side Big Bads have always been about manipulation (and it wasn't until Revenge of the Sith that Palaptine OR Yoda was established to've been at all combat-oriented). Also, we've never seen a Light Side and Dark Side user fighting together in any film, and for a film that's playing with themes of natural Balance & pointing at where the conflict actually resides, that's actually important that we don't see any direct Light vs. Dark lightsaber combat. The battles are side-by-side, or just a standoff with no danger, and that's on purpose.

Also, the initially deflated feeling when coming out of TLJ is par for the course. Even I felt initially disconnected at the end of my first viewing. It's only after really digging into the story that the film IS telling that I've come to feeling more excited than I ever was after seeing TFA.

(Unsurprisingly, I'm the outlier who loves TFA & TLJ)





X

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Count me as such an outlier as well.

I'm also one of those who loved the EU/Legends stuff while still loving this new stuff. And I'll also say that nothing from this new canon thus far has been as egregious as some of the developments from EU/Legends to me.

I also think all those who are offended for the Expanded Universe's sake could admit to feeling that way about at least one thing from the EU if they really thought about it. Maybe it was what happened to Chewbacca, Mara Jade, Anakin Solo (this one is me), or even the direction taken with Jacen Solo (a.k.a. proto-Kylo Ren).

For me, there's no offense for the sake of that continuity because a) it still exists as a separate universe/continuity (and always did according to George Lucas, even back when he still owned the franchise); and b) that universe is even more bleak and feels even less "like 'Star Wars'" than this one has at any point up to now.

 

[Tetsujin]

Spoiler

• Luke contemplating killing Ben in his sleep and then coming to his senses just after activating his lightsaber is perfectly in line with Luke flying into a rage when Vader threatens to turn Leia in RotJ, and then coming to his senses after cutting off Vader's hand moments before murdering him in rage.

I disagree with that. There is a huge difference between Vader provoking Luke into a fit of rage and Luke contemplating murdering his nephew in his sleep.
In ROTJ he at least had the excuse of constant dark side baiting and button-pushing by Chad and Pope Benedict.
Here he calmly contemplates and almost commits cold-blooded murder. I find that magnitudes worse. They did him dirty with this characterization imo.


(on a side note, it made me think of this (KH spoilers): His own heart is darkness!

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Spoiler

• Luke contemplating killing Ben in his sleep and then coming to his senses just after activating his lightsaber is perfectly in line with Luke flying into a rage when Vader threatens to turn Leia in RotJ, and then coming to his senses after cutting off Vader's hand moments before murdering him in rage.

I disagree with that. There is a huge difference between Vader provoking Luke into a fit of rage and Luke contemplating murdering his nephew in his sleep.
In ROTJ he at least had the excuse of constant dark side baiting and button-pushing by Chad and Pope Benedict.
Here he calmly contemplates and almost commits cold-blooded murder. I find that magnitudes worse. They did him dirty with this characterization imo.


(on a side note, it made me think of this (KH spoilers): His own heart is darkness!

Spoiler

This is where you also have to look at Luke's biggest flaw, which is focusing on the Future and not the Present, because this is what the flaw is an extension of.

• Yoda tells him that he has to leave his friends to their fate and finish his training on Dagobah if he cares what they fight for, but Luke can't get the visions out of his head and leaves to save them (resulting in saving no one, losing his hand, and needing to be rescued himself). He risks everything in the present, because he's too preoccupied with the future.
• He is goaded into the moment of rage in RotJ, but in the moment when he's threatened with a possible danger in the future to Leia, he loses handle of the danger that striking down Vader presents him in the present.
• He goes to confront Ben, and upon looking into his nephew's mind sees that Ben is already filled with a Darkness so great that it threatens everything and everyone in his whole academy. He reacts to that by igniting his lightsaber to destroy the threat that it will become, but is then immediately overcome with shame in doing so – but before he can explain, the damage in the present is already done.

The whole reaction and regret happens in the span of a single second. Luke doesn't coldly contemplate that action AT ALL and that's a complete mischaracterization of how it's shown and described in the film.

X

 

[Tetsujin]

Spoiler

Single second?

Did it take him a single second to walk all the way to Ben's hut and stand at his bed late at night?
Dude was certainly contemplating *something* on the way there and I don't like where this leads.

Real talk though there may be many things I may change my mind about regarding this movie when I get to see it again but this is a direction for Luke that I fundamentally disagree with.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Spoiler

Single second?

Did it take him a single second to walk all the way to Ben's hut and stand at his bed late at night?
Dude was certainly contemplating *something* on the way there and I don't like where this leads.

Real talk though there may be many things I may change my mind about regarding this movie when I get to see it again but this is a direction for Luke that I fundamentally disagree with.

Spoiler

He went to confront Ben about the Darkness he'd sensed growing, but the way we'd all expect Luke to confront Ben as his Jedi student who was starting down the wrong path. He came to see and evaluate the situation he thought was still in an early stage of growing. He had no idea how far gone Ben was, when he looked into his thoughts, which is why he was caught off guard as significantly as he was and so utterly horrified. That's why he's shocked and ignites his lightsaber. Luke is SUPER clear about all of that when you get the full version of the story.

I think that this is one of the things that people most use as the "mischaracterization of Luke" argument, but that's why I'm explicitly specific about how it's portrayed, and why I'm always adamant that it's still completely in Luke's established character to've responded the way that he did. I think that if you look for it, you'll notice a lot of that when rewatching it.

Also, I'm writing a "holy shit god damn dude tl;dr as fuck about all the things" thing about TLJ now, Tres. It'll be finished at some point in the next few days, and when it is, I'll link it here. I've almost finished a full overview of Poe & Holdo's storyline, I'm gonna C&P and slightly revise the Casino Night Zone from this one after that, and then cover Luke & Rey's story.



X

 

[Charles Xavier]

To be fair, I have a hard time recalling X ever reacting to anything without unwavering optimism

Just for the record, Transformers 4 & Snowpiercer are about the only two bits of media that I can think of that've ever broken me of positivity in reviewing and such.

Hey X, what's your optimistic opinion about THIS:

Spoiler

Merry Christmas, everyone! Heh heh heh...

 

[Tetsujin]

Spoiler

I think that this is one of the things that people most use as the "mischaracterization of Luke" argument, but that's why I'm explicitly specific about how it's portrayed, and why I'm always adamant that it's still completely in Luke's established character to've responded the way that he did. I think that if you look for it, you'll notice a lot of that when rewatching it.

Spoiler

But the issue is not me not understanding the scene?

I disagree with this interpretation of Luke and I disagree with him being taken down this path. This is not an issue of it suddenly clicking with me upon rewatching it.

 

[Lex]

I think Tet's viewpoint is entirely valid and I agree, but I also enjoyed it anyway

This is like the 100th time I've said this, but if people come away from this movie feeling icky, it's not because of the plot itself or the movie overall. It's because of specific things that happen within the movie - character moments like the one being discussed now, and what that means for the character or the lore of Star Wars in general. Any one person's enjoyment of this movie will hinge quite squarely on whether or not they liked certain moments for certain characters. I've found that complaints are largely around these moments, and people complaining about other aspects of the film are generally doing so because they're looking for reasons to really justify hating it. It's been very interesting seeing everyone's reactions.

 

[Claymore]

That's a really good point you made Lex. In fact...

Spoiler

They must be really over the moon that they no longer have to deal with any 'legacy' characters and the insane amount of pressure to write them 'right' in a lot of people's eyes. They have set up the key players of the next generation and it's their time to shine now.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Spoiler

I think that this is one of the things that people most use as the "mischaracterization of Luke" argument, but that's why I'm explicitly specific about how it's portrayed, and why I'm always adamant that it's still completely in Luke's established character to've responded the way that he did. I think that if you look for it, you'll notice a lot of that when rewatching it.

Spoiler

But the issue is not me not understanding the scene?

I disagree with this interpretation of Luke and I disagree with him being taken down this path. This is not an issue of it suddenly clicking with me upon rewatching it.

Spoiler

Oh no, you're still totally open to not liking the path that they took Luke down being a dark one where he's filled with regrets and failure. I definitely get why that doesn't sit well with some folks.

I'm just pointing out that the path the film took him down absolutely isn't one where they've turned Luke into a coldly calculating murderer, and if you only dislike the idea of Luke being a cold-calculating killer, then yes – the issue would be in not understanding the scene and actual portrayal of Luke.

I think Tet's viewpoint is entirely valid and I agree, but I also enjoyed it anyway

This is like the 100th time I've said this, but if people come away from this movie feeling icky, it's not because of the plot itself or the movie overall. It's because of specific things that happen within the movie - character moments like the one being discussed now, and what that means for the character or the lore of Star Wars in general. Any one person's enjoyment of this movie will hinge quite squarely on whether or not they liked certain moments for certain characters. I've found that complaints are largely around these moments, and people complaining about other aspects of the film are generally doing so because they're looking for reasons to really justify hating it. It's been very interesting seeing everyone's reactions.

Also, I also don't want to reiterate this too often, but despite being the seemingly bottomless fountain of optimism, I felt somewhat deflated, confused, and a little disheartened after first seeing The Last Jedi, but I pushed really hard to understand why (since I always knew it was going to be a rough film of pushing everyone past their limits). It wasn't until seeing it a second time that I really, REALLY genuinely loved all of it. It's a rough ride to be sure, which is also why I get into conversation with everyone about it when those feelings come up, 'cause they kinda feel like a natural part of the cycle of watching the film for the first time. I honestly don't mean to be bothersome about it, but there are decisions that I didn't totally like initially, that I completely shifted my position on after seeing it again.





X

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I do see a lot of folks describing the Luke scene as

Spoiler

"plotting to murder his own nephew" or some such, so there's definitely a great deal of misunderstanding about the scene -- or possibly a lot of hyperbole from folks who just don't like the general direction taken here with Luke. And not liking it, of course, is fair.

I can't say I wished any of this on Luke. It's not what I wanted for him or any of the classic characters. I also can't say I find any of it hard to swallow, though.

I just like to think they got a good 15 or 20 years before it all went to hell. That's really the best we can hope for anyone, fictional or real. No matter how good a life any of us get, there will come a time where health declines, quality of life lessens, frustration or stress outweighs joy -- and so on. Going quietly and happily in our sleep after a long period of being in fabulous health isn't how it goes for the vast majority of us.

There's really no such thing as happily ever after. There can be happily ever after "until," though, and that can make the rest worth it.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I think that they all definitely

Spoiler

lived "happily until" (and that is the best way to put it). It's pretty clear that everything was pretty great for almost 30 years. The only reason for the films is when things went wrong. It seems that everyone was really happy until Luke loses his academy, and his students are slaughtered by the Darkness in his nephew that he didn't manage to stop. Something that totally breaks Han & Leia's relationship as well, and is the conflict that it needs to overcome.

Also, I'm 2/3rd of the way through my mega tl;dr write-up (I've probably put about 4-5 hours of straight typing into it), and I think that I might go see the film again before I finish it, so that I can ensure that I get all of the specifics of Luke & Rey's story accurate with all of the subtleties in place, since there's a lot more there that I feel like I need to address than I did before.





X

 

[looneymoon]

I didn't find the plot hard to swallow personally. I thought that it felt like it may have too many hands on it, which is understandable given how much much goes into a project like this. I think the result felt more like the jumbled middle draft of a good movie rather than the final product.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

It's actually kinda interesting that you say that it felt like it had too many hands on it, since Rian Johnson is the sole person who has credit for writing and directing this film – just like he does on all of his other films (in addition to also storyboarding out his own stuff since he plans the dialogue and shots out at the same time in his head). To support that, in interviews, he constantly describes the process of writing The Last Jedi as everyone giving him an incredible amount of freedom to tell whatever story he wanted.

While the directors do collaborate with the Lucasfilm Story Group for hashing out specific little details and things, this film was the first film since George Lucas made them where there was only one person credited as writer & director. As a point of reference, TFA had 3 writers credited. So I have a significant doubt of that being the underlying disconnect, but it is an interesting criticism.

Any other specifics of why it felt more like a middle draft that I can roll around in my head? (All this stuff's been helping me out a lot with writing my big tl;dr piece).


On a loosely related note: It's been a LOT of fun to coldly dissect The Empire Strikes Back in counter-point to The Last Jedi when they have similarities, because they have a lot of interesting similarities as middle chapters in putting our characters through a whole lot of hell.





X

 

[looneymoon]

It's actually kinda interesting that you say that it felt like it had too many hands on it, since Rian Johnson is the sole person who has credit for writing and directing this film – just like he does on all of his other films (in addition to also storyboarding out his own stuff since he plans the dialogue and shots out at the same time in his head). To support that, in interviews, he constantly describes the process of writing The Last Jedi as everyone giving him an incredible amount of freedom to tell whatever story he wante

yikes.

I actually like most of his other movies but... yikes no wonder everyone so mad at him

 

[X-SOLDIER]

yikes.

I actually like most of his other movies but... yikes no wonder everyone so mad at him

So... any more details into why ya thought it felt like a "middle draft" or....? 'Cause you've mentioned things feeling weak, but are always really nebulous about what those things are, and I've never gotten any follow-up from you when I ask about specifics, like:

I mean, thats a really good detailed summary of the movie I watched. Not convinced that it was executed well, but I appreciate the enthusiasm

I was more curious which of those bits wasn't well executed in your view, as I'm trying to get a better understanding of where other folks who disliked X & Y are comings from.

C'mon, at least give me SOMETHING specific from either of these that I can poke at.




X

 

[looneymoon]

I don't care to go into a more deep critical analysis of the film because a) I don't have a copy on hand; b) i don't care enough to, especially when I then have a tome of text I then feel obligated to respond to; c) I don't particularly want to drag your (or anyone's) enjoyment down, because I've said before that the amount of vitriol towards it is is overblown. My last post was a responses to the last couple of posts (not just yours) that those who are critical of it don't *understand* the film, or are mad at at how they handled the original characters... which just isn't the case, at all. I posted because I find that an annoying deduction to make of why people are underwhelmed.

I'm sure you can find plenty of better articulated articles/reviews that echo the sentiments I'm talking about. At the end of the day, all I can say is that my standards for cinema are much different than what this movie had to offer. With such a simple story like Star Wars, it's problematic when it doesn't look like I'm in the minority on that.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I didn't say that those who are critical of the film don't understand it. I said that I am seeing a lot of misunderstanding of the Luke scene. That's not even a matter of opinion. To say something happened in a scene where it objectively did not occur is almost inarguably a misunderstanding.

I did also suggest, though, that there may be some hyperbole at work on the part of some folks who are dissatisfied with the direction taken with the character because a) there are a lot of people dissatisfied with the direction taken with the character; and b) we see that sort of thing all the time -- for example when people summarized a certain scene from "Batman v Superman" as "Bats backed off 'cause both their moms are named 'Martha.'"

Though I suppose there were plenty of folks who misunderstood that as well, but I'm referring to the tongue-in-cheek derision made of that scene.

 

[Ite]

I'm not active enough on the facebox/twitternet to see how my disappointment in the film compares to others, and while I've tried to keep up here, I'm sure I've missed a dozen posts as this thread has blown up beyond my ability to live-follow it. But here are my thoughts anyway:

Spoiler

1. I think some of the scenes in this movie are some of the best all-time Star Wars scenes, the Yoda scene in particular, the Luke and R2 scene, the Luke and Leia scene, and almost every scene with Kylo.

2. The development of Kylo and Rey is phenomenal, Rey carried TFA and I'm glad to see Kylo match her in keeping my interest throughout this one.

3. Poe, Finn, and Rose were all insufferable in this film. Even if I had enjoyed their company, I couldn't enjoy the adventure they were on, because every time they bungled, literally thousands of people died. The stakes were way too high for me to be present for the Casino adventure, because my emotional ties were with the people they left behind. In my opinion, that's unfocused storytelling. I want to be engaged with the characters on screen, not wishing they'd fucking get on with it because the medical ship 1,000 lya is almost out of gas.

Oh, also, anyone in their right mind would have executed them at the end of the film. I don't care how decorated they are, or how small the resistance is now. Their continued involvement is a continued liability.

As for the praise this movie is getting for championing feminism, I point to Mon Mothma, Leia, Ahsoka, Ventress, and the countless other female leaders and female characters of depth and focus that didn't exist solely to teach the boys a lesson about listening to girls. It was so fucking Disney, so overstated that I felt like it was a step backwards. I don't think George is a particularly competent feminist, but the original trilogy didn't draw attention to the fact that women were leaders. It was a non-issue.

4. Luke's a whiny baby and it takes away his arc from the original trilogy. I'm sure this a tired complaint, and it's the same complaint I have about Cloud from AC. There are so many more interesting places they could have taken his character, and they kind of wasted the opportunity.

5. It was very pretty.

6. Surprisingly, I didn't like the new music theme. Rose's theme? I mean, it was definitely John Williams quality, and a great melody in its own right... but it didn't have that Star Wars style. It would have fit better is another one of his films, like Hook or something. A nitpick, I know. And no one else seemed bothered by it so I guess it's just me

7. Cheese. I have to remind myself that Star Wars has always been cheesy. But George Weasley is really grating to watch.

8. Phasma, what a wasted opportunity.

9. Giving both of the obviously gay male characters female love interests is also a wasted opportunity. Was not a fan at all of the Poe/Rey meet-cute at the end of the film, especially since he should have been hanging by the gallows for sedition, mutiny, and treason.

10. Lightspeed ramming........... um........ lightspeed has been a thing for like a million years. If this is something people can do, why isn't it a common tactic? Why didn't the various galactic organizations/weapons dealers invest in preventative measures against this fleet-destroying maneuver? Why do you need to build a Death Star when you could get an R2 unit to warp at a planet with a lightspeed ring? Or get 1000 clones to fly at the Separatist fleet from across the galaxy? The means, motive, and opportunities to use lightspeed ramming have been in every movie, but it hasn't been done. The fact that it is possible means the commanders of the past were a total joke, including the commanders of this movie. Why didn't the medical ship do it right before it ran out of gas? For a movie with "Wars" in the title, this really didn't think through the precedent this maneuver was setting, and it's maybe my biggest problem with the movie.

11. Saber fights are super gory now. I guess every trilogy has it's own style. My preference is still the first trilogy, with wide shots and clear maneuvers - the duel being a representation of character conflict. These felt like Tarantino fights.

12. They overdid the penguin things. And the humor in general. It's not prequel bad, but it was all very meta, like the script was winking at the audience. It killed my immurshin

That's it I guess.

 

[Shademp]

The porgs killed my immersion from the very first pictures of them.

BB-8 succeeded in his cuteness because his design was creative, evoking feelings of R2D2-robots but still being its own thing.

The porgs are just plushies. Nothing else. While everything in Star Wars exists as an excuse to sell toys, the trick is to make you not care about the fact. The porgs however are so superficial in their cuteness that I can only think about them as marketing and "cheap" cuteness-triggers.

 

[looneymoon]

Porgs remind me of ewoks and I fucking hate ewoks

 

[Lex]

Spoiler

9. Giving both of the obviously gay male characters female love interests is also a wasted opportunity. Was not a fan at all of the Poe/Rey meet-cute at the end of the film, especially since he should have been hanging by the gallows for sedition, mutiny, and treason.

PREACH lol

They went far too heavy on the subtext in TFA (still not enough for mainstreamers to notice outright) and set an expectation they can't fulfill without tremendous backlash.

 

[Joe]

I'm not active enough on the facebox/twitternet to see how my disappointment in the film compares to others, and while I've tried to keep up here, I'm sure I've missed a dozen posts as this thread has blown up beyond my ability to live-follow it. But here are my thoughts anyway:

Spoiler

1. I think some of the scenes in this movie are some of the best all-time Star Wars scenes, the Yoda scene in particular, the Luke and R2 scene, the Luke and Leia scene, and almost every scene with Kylo.

2. The development of Kylo and Rey is phenomenal, Rey carried TFA and I'm glad to see Kylo match her in keeping my interest throughout this one.

3. Poe, Finn, and Rose were all insufferable in this film. Even if I had enjoyed their company, I couldn't enjoy the adventure they were on, because every time they bungled, literally thousands of people died. The stakes were way too high for me to be present for the Casino adventure, because my emotional ties were with the people they left behind. In my opinion, that's unfocused storytelling. I want to be engaged with the characters on screen, not wishing they'd fucking get on with it because the medical ship 1,000 lya is almost out of gas.

Oh, also, anyone in their right mind would have executed them at the end of the film. I don't care how decorated they are, or how small the resistance is now. Their continued involvement is a continued liability.

As for the praise this movie is getting for championing feminism, I point to Mon Mothma, Leia, Ahsoka, Ventress, and the countless other female leaders and female characters of depth and focus that didn't exist solely to teach the boys a lesson about listening to girls. It was so fucking Disney, so overstated that I felt like it was a step backwards. I don't think George is a particularly competent feminist, but the original trilogy didn't draw attention to the fact that women were leaders. It was a non-issue.

4. Luke's a whiny baby and it takes away his arc from the original trilogy. I'm sure this a tired complaint, and it's the same complaint I have about Cloud from AC. There are so many more interesting places they could have taken his character, and they kind of wasted the opportunity.

5. It was very pretty.

6. Surprisingly, I didn't like the new music theme. Rose's theme? I mean, it was definitely John Williams quality, and a great melody in its own right... but it didn't have that Star Wars style. It would have fit better is another one of his films, like Hook or something. A nitpick, I know. And no one else seemed bothered by it so I guess it's just me

7. Cheese. I have to remind myself that Star Wars has always been cheesy. But George Weasley is really grating to watch.

8. Phasma, what a wasted opportunity.

9. Giving both of the obviously gay male characters female love interests is also a wasted opportunity. Was not a fan at all of the Poe/Rey meet-cute at the end of the film, especially since he should have been hanging by the gallows for sedition, mutiny, and treason.

10. Lightspeed ramming........... um........ lightspeed has been a thing for like a million years. If this is something people can do, why isn't it a common tactic? Why didn't the various galactic organizations/weapons dealers invest in preventative measures against this fleet-destroying maneuver? Why do you need to build a Death Star when you could get an R2 unit to warp at a planet with a lightspeed ring? Or get 1000 clones to fly at the Separatist fleet from across the galaxy? The means, motive, and opportunities to use lightspeed ramming have been in every movie, but it hasn't been done. The fact that it is possible means the commanders of the past were a total joke, including the commanders of this movie. Why didn't the medical ship do it right before it ran out of gas? For a movie with "Wars" in the title, this really didn't think through the precedent this maneuver was setting, and it's maybe my biggest problem with the movie.

11. Saber fights are super gory now. I guess every trilogy has it's own style. My preference is still the first trilogy, with wide shots and clear maneuvers - the duel being a representation of character conflict. These felt like Tarantino fights.

12. They overdid the penguin things. And the humor in general. It's not prequel bad, but it was all very meta, like the script was winking at the audience. It killed my immurshin

That's it I guess.

Aside from point #10 I feel like this is the closest anybody here has felt on this movie to my own feelings. Cheers for putting it all into words Ite

As for #10

Spoiler

I feel like it's more an issue of previous films than anything. Like, when I was young I'd always wonder why nobody ever tried flying through another, bigger ship at lightspeed, turning the ship into a big hardy projectile. When it finally happened in TLJ I had to stop myself from shouting "YES!" in the cinema. The scene was well done, visually spectacular, and something I've wanted to see in so long.

It not happening before now IS stupid, I agree, so I was super happy that the logistics of doing so were addressed in an awesome way.