Star Wars: Episode 7, 8... and BEYOND!

[Lulcielid]

I don't usually buy home-releases of movies but the extra content makes it very tempting.

 

[Mage]

So this is the first time I've looked in on this thread for a while and I just noped out. The same names having a gradually more nuanced argument is immensely off-putting, particularly when your replies are basically 'you're wrong because of X', 'no you haven't considered Y so you're wrong'. You're actually arguing that what someone else has seen and interpreted is wrong and arguing it to death and seriously, fuck that shit.

If the conversation is done in respectful manner without malevolent intention then it's fair, forums are meant to be a place where users can have a discussion, why the "fuck that shit"?

Because I'm Mage.

I seriously don't have the time or energy to sift through an epic spoiler-tagged back and forth in case I've missed something particularly interesting and this is a subject I have had a massive nerd-on for since my y00f.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

This stuff never ceases to impress me.




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[X-SOLDIER]

MOAR

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[Shademp]

Star Wars meets Calvin & Hobbes: 83 illustrations

 

[X-SOLDIER]

A look at how they did the audio for the Leia Hologram





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[Tetsujin]

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Here's another one:

Man, I friggin' LOVE this stuff.





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[X-SOLDIER]

The expanded novelization is out, and I'm REALLY looking forward to going through it for little details like this: https://dorksideoftheforce.com/2018/03/06/tlj-snoke-destroyed-skywalkers-jedi/

"Darth Sidious, heir to the Sith, had been an even greater secret than the Contingency. And the Empire's explorations into the Unknown Regions had served both aspects of its ruler. For Sidious knew that the galaxy's knowledge of the Force had come from those long-abandoned, half-legendary star systems, and that great truths awaited rediscovery among them.
Truths that Snoke had learned and made to serve his own ends."

"One obstacle had stood in his way—Skywalker. Who had been wise enough not to rebuild the Jedi Order, dismissing it as the "sclerotic, self-perpetuating debating society it had become in its death throes. Instead, the last Jedi had sought to understand the origins of the faith, and the larger truths behind it.

Like his father, Skywalker had been a favored instrument of the will of the Cosmic Force. That made it essential to watch him. And once Skywalker endangered Snoke's design, it had become essential to act. And so Snoke had drawn upon his vast store of knowledge, parceling it out to confuse Skywalker's path, ensnare his family, and harness Ben Solo's powers to ensure both Skywalker's destruction and Snoke's triumph. Now the endgame he had foreseen was at hand."

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[Lady Tifa]

I'm really enjoying the ST, but I think for me, after IX, I will consider it over and look back at a very long and incredible saga with a smile!

 

[X-SOLDIER]

EEEEEEEEEEEEEE




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[Shademp]

I'll be completely honest and say that watching this was...cathartic. I still, at the very least, find TLJ to be a disappointment.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I'll be completely honest and say that watching this was...cathartic. I still, at the very least, find TLJ to be a disappointment.

Like most all HISHE videos, I see this to just be obnoxious fan wank, tbqh. (Rant incoming)


I feel like this is largely in that I don't want stories to shape themselves JUST because of how I feel about things in them. If this was anything close to TLJ, it would've felt like pandering or fan service for the sake of fan service. This is especially apparent insofar as Admiral Ackbar is concerned.

I get that he's a character that's beloved by fans for being an, "It's a trap!" yelling internet trope, but insofar as the context of the story itself – he's no different than Raddus or any of the other Rebel commanders. There's NO reason for giving Holdo's part to him (not to mention that there's a 0% chance of a heroic character named Ackbar ever executing a suicidal attack). To me, it's just like bitching that Bail Organa has an off-screen death, and we never see Leia explicitly take time to mourn her dead parents. Sometimes people we care about die in shitty and non-valiant ways, and there isn't time to sit and linger on them, because they're no longer important to the story, and the characters have to push on.


I think that the biggest issue with fandom that I find incredibly offputting and ultimately toxic are all of the, "this is how you should have told the story" things, because they have an incredibly obsessive focus on allowing treatments of characters in specific ways based solely on how people feel about them, not their factor in the story. It takes a step WAY beyond Fan Fiction for me, because fan fiction is inherently a self-serving AU. That's what it's meant to be. All fiction isn't supposed to be that, nor is it NOT being that an inherently acceptable criticism. It's just like the fact that Russian Bots got used to try and make them not kill General Hux – the fact that there're people out there trying to control a story because they like a character is FUCKING RIDICULOUS.


I think that in TLJ's commentary, Rian Johnson gets at this best when he talks about how he had thought about having Luke show up on Crait and use the Force to knock over all of the AT-M6 walkers – but doing that would go against the fact that for Jedi the Force is supposed to be used for defense but never attack, AND the lesson he taught Rey that The Force isn't a superpower. Yes, that's something that everyone would have liked to see, but there are FAR more important reasons that it wouldn't / shouldn't happen insofar as the story and such are concerned. When it comes to The Force, it's apparent that this is something that's happening on a much, MUCH larger storytelling level as well – which is why I REALLY like Luke's portrayal after getting over the initial shock that I wasn't just being fed more fanservice.

On the larger picture, Dave Filoni really hit this point about The Force when it comes to the question about him being asked about how he's been involving The Force a lot more with the Natural World in Rebels, and he goes off a bit about how VERY WRONG a lot of talk about The Force is, especially insofar as George Lucas designed it, and it's been treated in films.

POTENTIAL REBELS SPOILERS. JUMP TO 20:13

I think that another part of me that's hesitant is that when films attempt to cater to things solely because fans have obsessed about them, we get "The History of Boba Fett" which definitely didn't serve him as well as the mystery that he had before, because it made him FAR too important for a random Mandalorian bounty hunter being the One True Clone.

I feel like the other part of me that's been HEAVILY influenced in this direction has been following a ton of the Actors, Directors, & Lucasfilm Story Group on Twitter. The amount of complete, entitled bullshit that people toss around is fucking absurd to the Nth degree.


Lastly, please understand that this is different from disliking or being critical of the film. I totally get that TLJ totally wasn't some people's jam, or parts didn't work for them. That's absolutely fine. I feel like FAR too much focus is coming from the mindset of, "Why didn't you do THIS instead?" instead of, "Why was this done that way?"

On that note:

tl;dr – UGH. ENTITLED FANDOM SHIT IS SHIT.





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[Clement Rage]

I think you have to take HISHE as a joke most of the time, I mean, flying the eagles to Mordor wouldn't work either.

What's bothering me is that everyone seems to be allowed to be as snide and dismissive of the prequels as they like (for pretty much the same reasons), but there's not much of a backlash against them even though that was nine times worse and did things like ruin Jake Lloyd's life.

PS: I promise that it's not my intent to start another three page diatribe here, I am honestly sorry about that.

 

[Shademp]

@X

Gooood, gooood...

Okay now take a few deep breaths.

I do believe that the writers of TLJ brought sincere, genuine effort and deep thought into the script. But it's just not my space jam.

I should probably specify that I did not mean that the clips in that HISHE video is what *actually* should have happened. I enjoyed the comedy and the wish-fulfillment (yes, I use that term unabashedly because that is an important factor of fiction and escapism) and took it mostly as harmless fun. Probably helps that I haven't been exposed to the vitriolic fandom that much.

I wish I could change my opinion about TLJ. Who knows, maybe Episode 9 will change how I view Episode 8. I have read a ton of good defenses, same as I have read a lot of good criticism. There is merit in the movie. But so far I can't look back and be pleased with direction of the story.

It also remains that I can't bring myself to write a lengthy opinion piece unfolding WHY I feel sad when thinking back to the experience. I am sad that I am no longer invested in the new trilogy, to the point where I can't feel bothered to present a deeper analysis. I'm just so...sad.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I think you have to take HISHE as a joke most of the time, I mean, flying the eagles to Mordor wouldn't work either.

What's bothering me is that everyone seems to be allowed to be as snide and dismissive of the prequels as they like (for pretty much the same reasons), but there's not much of a backlash against them even though that was nine times worse and did things like ruin Jake Lloyd's life.

I've never really been a fan of their stuff in general, which is obviously a factor – but if I had a dollar for every time I've seen people dead seriously making the argument on Twitter, Facebook, Tumblr, etc. that this literally should have been how The Last Jedi should've gone, I'd have enough cash to finance my own Star Wars film.


Additionally, I've always thought that people shitting on the prequels and making life a living hell for Jake Lloyd or Ahmed Best are equally dog shit. There are definitely criticisms to be mode of the Prequels, as there are of the Special Editions of the OT. But seriously – Fuck anybody who makes that shit into an aggressive attack against anyone involved with the film.



EDIT: JUST SAW SHAD'S POST. I WILL MAKE ANOTHER SHORTLY.




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[X-SOLDIER]

@X

Gooood, gooood...

Okay now take a few deep breaths.

<3


I really only dislike that sort of stuff, because it empowers people building poor arguments and shitting on my optimism. It's a all positive negativity.

I do believe that the writers of TLJ brought sincere, genuine effort and deep thought into the script. But it's just not my space jam.

I should probably specify that I did not mean that the clips in that HISHE video is what *actually* should have happened. I enjoyed the comedy and the wish-fulfillment (yes, I use that term unabashedly because that is an important factor of fiction and escapism) and took it mostly as harmless fun. Probably helps that I haven't been exposed to the vitriolic fandom that much.

Oh, I totally get ya. I just needed to rant a bit.

I wish I could change my opinion about TLJ. Who knows, maybe Episode 9 will change how I view Episode 8. I have read a ton of good defenses, same as I have read a lot of good criticism. There is merit in the movie. But so far I can't look back and be pleased with direction of the story.

It also remains that I can't bring myself to write a lengthy opinion piece unfolding WHY I feel sad when thinking back to the experience. I am sad that I am no longer invested in the new trilogy, to the point where I can't feel bothered to present a deeper analysis. I'm just so...sad.

As odd as it may seem, that feeling of sad and disinterest with the future is EXACTLY what I felt when I first watched the film. So, I totally get it. It's also why I felt that (being the continual font of optimism) that I NEEDED to dig more into it, rather than turn to the Dark Side and rage against it, because I knew that there was more to it than what I felt at first. Like... I was prepared for a specific TYPE of bleak outcome of some things, but it very much wasn't the approach that I had prepared for, so it still caught me off guard.

I think that part of the issue is that J.J. builds mystery boxes that are SO intriguing, but never plans to open all of them. Luke being in isolation from the Force and not saving Han being a big one that's easier to look back on, where (like in the video I added) the answer is a very different one than we were expecting.

It wasn't until my round 2 viewing where I REALLY grabbed a hold of everything. I'd be curious if watching it again would change your stance on it, since I've heard from a large number of people (and an increasing number of comments now that it's out digitally) that there're a lot of different feelings on it seeing it again with some distance from the long-built-up speculative expectations.




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[Lulcielid]

I looked up and guess what scene happens in the "exact" middle point of The Last Jedi.

Spoiler: Big Picture

 

[Roger]

I think that another part of me that's hesitant is that when films attempt to cater to things solely because fans have obsessed about them, we get "The History of Boba Fett" which definitely didn't serve him as well as the mystery that he had before, because it made him FAR too important for a random Mandalorian bounty hunter being the One True Clone.

Lucas had written down that Boba Fett was a prototype stormtrooper long before anyone beside him cared about Boba Fett. Prequels just gave him a place to give shape to his idea. For good or for bad, obsessive fandom didn't make that happen.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I think that another part of me that's hesitant is that when films attempt to cater to things solely because fans have obsessed about them, we get "The History of Boba Fett" which definitely didn't serve him as well as the mystery that he had before, because it made him FAR too important for a random Mandalorian bounty hunter being the One True Clone.

Lucas had written down that Boba Fett was a prototype stormtrooper long before anyone beside him cared about Boba Fett. Prequels just gave him a place to give shape to his idea. For good or for bad, obsessive fandom didn't make that happen.

Well, to be fair, Lucas had a LOT of ideas written down that never came to pass, like making Boba Fett the main villain. While the Prequels were sort of an attempt to bring all that back, it didn't end up serving him well, so while it's definitely not a perfect example, hopefully it at least served the point I was making.

I've always seen George Lucas as a lot like a D&D DM that just spins up ideas for things all the time, and has a loose story framework in mind, but when doing the actual storytelling focuses too much on interconnecting the "cool" things in the story (often to its detriment by railroading plot elements too closely). Yes, that is also DEFINITELY a criticism of my original DM and our campaign setting, who I gamed with for the better part of 20 years.

Related: Can you imagine how vitriolic the internet would be if you had this fan-favourite character who'd been built up in the background for 5 films, and seemed like he was just about to have his big focus in the new film after ALL the years of setup... but then suddenly get off-handedly bumped off into the Sarlaac Pit, while Han's basically blind?

Like, the reaction differences of, "Ah, that's lame. I can't believe he died such a chump after being such a badass warrior." Vs. going to the director's social media for MONTHS with comments like, "This is literally the worst piece of shit ever put to film, and you've ruined the entire franchise forever with your garbage storytelling. I hope you fucking die." I just... ugh. Fandom that feels too much ownership over something, man.


Very loosely related: That issue always makes me thing of the anime Tekkonkinkreet which is more about a gang setting, but the idea of overcommitting to a sense of ownership of a thing that isn't just yours being toxic to yourself and everyone else.





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[Roger]

Well, to be fair, Lucas had a LOT of ideas written down that never came to pass, like making Boba Fett the main villain. While the Prequels were sort of an attempt to bring all that back, it didn't end up serving him well, so while it's definitely not a perfect example, hopefully it at least served the point I was making.

I've always seen George Lucas as a lot like a D&D DM that just spins up ideas for things all the time, and has a loose story framework in mind, but when doing the actual storytelling focuses too much on interconnecting the "cool" things in the story (often to its detriment by railroading plot elements too closely). Yes, that is also DEFINITELY a criticism of my original DM and our campaign setting, who I gamed with for the better part of 20 years.

Related: Can you imagine how vitriolic the internet would be if you had this fan-favourite character who'd been built up in the background for 5 films, and seemed like he was just about to have his big focus in the new film after ALL the years of setup... but then suddenly get off-handedly bumped off into the Sarlaac Pit, while Han's basically blind?

Like, the reaction differences of, "Ah, that's lame. I can't believe he died such a chump after being such a badass warrior." Vs. going to the director's social media for MONTHS with comments like, "This is literally the worst piece of shit ever put to film, and you've ruined the entire franchise forever with your garbage storytelling. I hope you fucking die." I just... ugh. Fandom that feels too much ownership over something, man.


Very loosely related: That issue always makes me thing of the anime Tekkonkinkreet which is more about a gang setting, but the idea of overcommitting to a sense of ownership of a thing that isn't just yours being toxic to yourself and everyone else.





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The prequels served Boba Fett better then never getting anything after the Sarlacc pit incident at all. It only shortchanged him in comparison to the EU, in itself a example of the fandom taking a very direct kind of ownership of the franchise leading taking all kinds of stuff off the rails.

 

[Ite]

Well........ I think the difference is that people think the internet gives them a voice.

Which it does?

 

[X-SOLDIER]

The prequels served Boba Fett better then never getting anything after the Sarlacc pit incident at all. It only shortchanged him in comparison to the EU, in itself a example of the fandom taking a very direct kind of ownership of the franchise leading taking all kinds of stuff off the rails.

I'll definitely disagree with you there. Boba Fett is pretty much THE BEST example of over-explaining the character who's "cool & mysterious" to a point such that the mystery is no longer part of his intrigue. Anakin in Episode I is another example of that sort of thing.

Additionally, I'd also disagree with the Legends EU being described as, "the Fandom taking ownership of the franchise...". Any of the officially sanctioned (non-Infinities Canon) stuff still had to go through Lucasfilms, the exact same way that Comics, Novels, Animations, and other media still do now.



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[X-SOLDIER]

Well........ I think the difference is that people think the internet gives them a voice.

Which it does?

.....................There's a big difference between being critical of something, and being a vitriolic piece of shit directly to people involved with the film.




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