Star Wars: Episode 7, 8... and BEYOND!

[Shademp]

There's a big difference between being critical of something, and being a vitriolic piece of shit directly to people involved with the film.

I'm certain Ite knows that distinction. He was just stating the Internet has made the world more interconnected, which is most definitely true. The Internet gives people a voice but how they choose to use that voice is a matter all its own.

 

[Roger]

I'll definitely disagree with you there. Boba Fett is pretty much THE BEST example of over-explaining the character who's "cool & mysterious" to a point such that the mystery is no longer part of his intrigue. Anakin in Episode I is another example of that sort of thing.

If Episode VI didn't make Boba Fett uncool then I really don't understand what happened in Episode II that did. As for mysterious, Boba Fett being less popular or not popular at all doesn't incentivize George Lucas to come up with a better answer to the imagined mystery. Mystery that don't have answers at all, don't actually rate that high to me.

Additionally, I'd also disagree with the Legends EU being described as, "the Fandom taking ownership of the franchise...". Any of the officially sanctioned (non-Infinities Canon) stuff still had to go through Lucasfilms, the exact same way that Comics, Novels, Animations, and other media still do now.

And fans of the franchise that became writers still use those comics, novels, animatios and other media to get up on their voicebox to criticize how this or that part of Star Wars is stupid or should have been cooler.
Disney holds to a single canon now and is being a bit more careful as a result though, you don't see Boba Fett pop up everywhere because they don't want to tie themselves to anything that might contradict the movie, or displease fans ahead of the movie and impact sales. In the bad old days, Boba Fett could show up in a comic and fight Darth Vader to a stand-still. Luke could leave the Vong War to fight a random Sith on Coruscant that came into existence all of the sudden with lightsabres coming out of his elbow armor. Caue you know, Luke is around in the novels and we just need to give him something, anything to do.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

There's a big difference between being critical of something, and being a vitriolic piece of shit directly to people involved with the film.

I'm certain Ite knows that distinction. He was just stating the Internet has made the world more interconnected, which is most definitely true. The Internet gives people a voice but how they choose to use that voice is a matter all its own.

Right, but the response was to my quote about the differences between two reactions:

the reaction differences of, "Ah, that's lame. I can't believe he died such a chump after being such a badass warrior." Vs. going to the director's social media for MONTHS with comments like, "This is literally the worst piece of shit ever put to film, and you've ruined the entire franchise forever with your garbage storytelling. I hope you fucking die." I just... ugh. Fandom that feels too much ownership over something, man.

Those are both reactions people can have, and have LOUDLY, given the voice that they get on the internet and how it's interconnected. The internet just giving people a voice isn't at all a DIFFERENCE between those two responses at all.




X

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I'll definitely disagree with you there. Boba Fett is pretty much THE BEST example of over-explaining the character who's "cool & mysterious" to a point such that the mystery is no longer part of his intrigue. Anakin in Episode I is another example of that sort of thing.

If Episode VI didn't make Boba Fett uncool then I really don't understand what happened in Episode II that did. As for mysterious, Boba Fett being less popular or not popular at all doesn't incentivize George Lucas to come up with a better answer to the imagined mystery. Mystery that don't have answers at all, don't actually rate that high to me.

There's a reason that Fett was still immensely popular after VI, and why there were huge debates about if he survived the Sarlaac and whatnot. There's intrigue to having a shady and un-specific past, and it's a large source of peoples' hesitance towards the Han Solo film.

Additionally, I'd also disagree with the Legends EU being described as, "the Fandom taking ownership of the franchise...". Any of the officially sanctioned (non-Infinities Canon) stuff still had to go through Lucasfilms, the exact same way that Comics, Novels, Animations, and other media still do now.

And fans of the franchise that became writers still use those comics, novels, animatios and other media to get up on their voicebox to criticize how this or that part of Star Wars is stupid or should have been cooler.
Disney holds to a single canon now and is being a bit more careful as a result though, you don't see Boba Fett pop up everywhere because they don't want to tie themselves to anything that might contradict the movie, or displease fans ahead of the movie and impact sales. In the bad old days, Boba Fett could show up in a comic and fight Darth Vader to a stand-still. Luke could leave the Vong War to fight a random Sith on Coruscant that came into existence all of the sudden with lightsabres coming out of his elbow armor. Caue you know, Luke is around in the novels and we just need to give him something, anything to do.

And those fans are STILL terrible, and don't control any officially released material.

I think that you're giving the EU a lot less credit than it deserves. The whole reason that Leeland Chee is a part of the current Lucasfilms Storygroup is that he maintained the The Holocron for Legends, which was a database of where every character was at every point in time in every specific story that they officially sanctioned. So, those safety precautions were still in place even back then.




X

 

[Roger]

There's a reason that Fett was still immensely popular after VI, and why there were huge debates about if he survived the Sarlaac and whatnot.

There's still debates about Boba Fett whether survived the Sarlacc Pit in this canon as well. Episode II didn't end his popularity wholesale just like that.

There's intrigue to having a shady and un-specific past, and it's a large source of peoples' hesitance towards the Han Solo film.

Boba Fett is not Han Solo, he had four lines and then died. A character having a vague and unspecific past while being a important member of the story around in the present has value. A character never being explored beyond the 4 lines he had between his ignoble end and his all mysterious backstory much less so. Star Wars is popular, off course we were gonna see more. This is what the writer gave us after years of time to think about it. I don't see how with respect to Boba Fett wanting more after VI is wrong but wanting difference after II is right.

And those fans are STILL terrible, and don't control any officially released material.

Chuck Wendig does, I dunno if he's terrible, but he invents characters with status and position to lampshade to the surviving Grand Moffs and Imperial Admirals about how the Emperor was an insane decrepit goblin and the idea of a heroic Imperial narrative that their characters might be following is inherently stupid, stopping just short of using Star Wars established tropes by name to illustrate why it doesn't make sense, without retribution.

That kind of stuff happens all the time in Star Wars fiction.

I think that you're giving the EU a lot less credit than it deserves. The whole reason that Leeland Chee is a part of the current Lucasfilms Storygroup is that he maintained the The Holocron for Legends, which was a database of where every character was at every point in time in every specific story that they officially sanctioned. So, those safety precautions were still in place even back then.

I don't mean safety precautions against being two places at once. I mean safety precautions against Boba Fett being portrayed as an ultimate Jedi killer with dozens of lightsabre trophies or some other fanwank the EU was prone too.

 

[Clement Rage]

Additionally, I've always thought that people shitting on the prequels and making life a living hell for Jake Lloyd or Ahmed Best are equally dog shit. There are definitely criticisms to be mode of the Prequels, as there are of the Special Editions of the OT. But seriously – Fuck anybody who makes that shit into an aggressive attack against anyone involved with the film.

That goes without saying. But Prequel backlash was far more vitriolic that we're getting now, largely for the same reasons (you ruined Thing Y, it doesn't match my headcanon!), but for some reason there were and are fewer defenders. No one gets to say 'Grow up, subverting expectations isn't bad' and then complain about midichlorians not being what they expected.

It's not even the internet, because the net was not as well developed back in the early 2000s. I mean, these days there's also a lot of abuse headed back towards the critics of TLJ claiming they're all entitled fans that need to let the films grow up.

All of the 'take the film as it is, not how you would like it to be' counter crIticism applies equally to the prequels as TLJ, but it's not being done. To be honest, doing that clears up most of the criticisms of the prequels for me, but just highlights the problems of TLJ.

There's a lot of 'bad faith' fandom re the prequels, ie. 'I don't like sand'. It's easier to skip right to mocking the line than to remember that Anakin is from a desert planet where sandstorms kill people.

You can't complain about a difference of expectations for Luke in TLJ is fine, but for Anakin or Boba Fett the same thing was not.

As odd as it may seem, that feeling of sad and disinterest with the future is EXACTLY what I felt when I first watched the film. So, I totally get it. It's also why I felt that (being the continual font of optimism) that I NEEDED to dig more into it, rather than turn to the Dark Side and rage against it, because I knew that there was more to it than what I felt at first. Like... I was prepared for a specific TYPE of bleak outcome of some things, but it very much wasn't the approach that I had prepared for, so it still caught me off guard.

I think that part of the issue is that J.J. builds mystery boxes that are SO intriguing, but never plans to open all of them. Luke being in isolation from the Force and not saving Han being a big one that's easier to look back on, where (like in the video I added) the answer is a very different one than we were expecting.

It wasn't until my round 2 viewing where I REALLY grabbed a hold of everything. I'd be curious if watching it again would change your stance on it, since I've heard from a large number of people (and an increasing number of comments now that it's out digitally) that there're a lot of different feelings on it seeing it again with some distance from the long-built-up speculative expectations.

Sounds like my reaction to BVS. I was absolutely stunned by how well thought out the whole thing was when I rewatched the ultimate edition.

But TLJ just came more and more apart the more I thought about it. Granted I didn't see it twice, because I'm not inclined to give more money to the makers of a film I disliked than to one I liked. But I'm reading the articles explaining stuff, I'm reading the 'here are the extra scenes from the novelisation' stuff, I'm reading defending articles online. i am open to correction, because I sincerely prefer liking stuff to disliking stuff. I prefer not to be the grumpy guy that contradicts everyone, surprising as that may seem. Because that guy's a dick.

I'm willing to make assumptions like 'the people to whom this technology is life and death know more about it than me' or 'thing Y happened offscreen', but so far, that is not enough to prop up TLJ, for me, at least.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Boba Fett is not Han Solo, he had four lines and then died. A character having a vague and unspecific past while being a important member of the story around in the present has value. A character never being explored beyond the 4 lines he had between his ignoble end and his all mysterious backstory much less so. Star Wars is popular, off course we were gonna see more. This is what the writer gave us after years of time to think about it. I don't see how with respect to Boba Fett wanting more after VI is wrong but wanting difference after II is right.

I mean... Fett plays an INCREDIBLY pivotal role in TESB, despite the fact that he hardly speaks. He manages to track down the Falcon when it escapes the rest of the Empire, and is also the central connecting thread that drags Han back into the past that he's been neglecting since we met him. Additionally, he has a strong rapport with both Vader and Jabba, but operates on his own, which is what presents the sense of mystery around him. That, plus a REALLY cool design means that, unceremonious possible death in the Sarlaac or not, he's still a character a lot of people really latched onto for being "cool". Then there's the whole Mandalorian thing etc that just builds up on that.

When presented with the backstory of, "you know the massive amounts of incapable Imperial cannon fodder troops? Yeah, he's actually one of those, but still good at stuff because he's actually just a completely unmodified clone of his dad." That's bad not only because it's wholly unsatisfying that he's not really a unique character at all anymore, but you've tied him too closely into the middle of everything for a character that was distinctly standalone from the center of everything to do with the Empire. It's the same issue with C-3PO being built by Anakin. It's taking elements that didn't need to be explicitly tied into this small central group, and looping everything in too close together. It's easily the biggest pitfall when it comes to making prequel content for literally ANY story.

I don't mean safety precautions against being two places at once. I mean safety precautions against Boba Fett being portrayed as an ultimate Jedi killer with dozens of lightsabre trophies or some other fanwank the EU was prone too.

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong. There's still been a lot of "cool character wish fulfillment garbage" made into stories that serves only that purpose, and in general make everything just eye-rollingly shit. I think that ditching the EU was also trying to get away from a lot of that as well. That's also what I mean when talking about a story that serves itself BEFORE it serves its audience.

All of the 'take the film as it is, not how you would like it to be' counter crIticism applies equally to the prequels as TLJ, but it's not being done. To be honest, doing that clears up most of the criticisms of the prequels for me, but just highlights the problems of TLJ.

There's a lot of 'bad faith' fandom re the prequels, ie. 'I don't like sand'. It's easier to skip right to mocking the line than to remember that Anakin is from a desert planet where sandstorms kill people.

You can't complain about a difference of expectations for Luke in TLJ is fine, but for Anakin or Boba Fett the same thing was not.

The biggest difference in TLJ Luke vs. Prequel Anakin/Boba Fett is the difference is making a backstory vs. a continuing story as a follow-up. It's the basic issues of retcon vs. new development: Moving TO an extant thing, vs. moving FROM an extant thing.

In backstory, you're attempting to establish the things that fundamentally drive the character to become who they were when we already knew them. The constraints of storytelling that inherently exist when you're composing prequel content is always problematic, because to some degree it is REQUIRED to play into your expectations, because you're moving towards a pre-established trajectory. Depending on how well you do or don't design that, you can even undermine the original work by altering a characters' underlying motivations. (Han shoots first being a prime example of Han being a gives-no-fucks smuggler who eventually comes around to doing the right thing, to Han being portrayed as always having been a pretty good guy who never would've just straight up murdered a dude hunting him down).

In continuing story, you're exposing a character to different developments and changes and taking them from someone we knew into someone slightly different along with the changes in setting. So long as you start off with the established character, it's easy to change their circumstances and have them develop into something different, because you don't have a pre-written end goal that they have to achieve. That follows the same rule as all basic storytelling, so it doesn't have the same pitfalls and problems that prequels run into, because it's the same as the development that we see all the time.

While complaints about expectations sound the same for sequels & prequels, they're fundamentally very different beasts.

Sounds like my reaction to BVS. I was absolutely stunned by how well thought out the whole thing was when I rewatched the ultimate edition.

But TLJ just came more and more apart the more I thought about it. Granted I didn't see it twice, because I'm not inclined to give more money to the makers of a film I disliked than to one I liked. But I'm reading the articles explaining stuff, I'm reading the 'here are the extra scenes from the novelisation' stuff, I'm reading defending articles online. i am open to correction, because I sincerely prefer liking stuff to disliking stuff. I prefer not to be the grumpy guy that contradicts everyone, surprising as that may seem. Because that guy's a dick.

I'm willing to make assumptions like 'the people to whom this technology is life and death know more about it than me' or 'thing Y happened offscreen', but so far, that is not enough to prop up TLJ, for me, at least.

You should watch TLJ again, and I should finally get around to seeing Extended BvS.

Really though, there are a good number of films where you pick up a LOT more on the second viewing than you do on your initial viewing – especially with a good storyteller. An initial viewing of a film is always FAR less analytical of the content than subsequent viewings, because you're being presented with everything for the first time and reacting to it only with the context that it's presented you with as far as you've already seen. The fact that you can have a twist ending to a story is proof of that, because it means that your perspective on events at the end has been altered to how they were framed from the start. Fight Club is always the easiest example of this, because on subsequent viewings you can pay attention to details all over that you didn't even know you could be looking for originally.

Specifically with Rian Johnson's own body of work, there isn't a single film of his that I haven't found a LOT more in after seeing it more than once, because of the type of storyteller he is. Brick, The Brothers Bloom, Looper, & The Last Jedi all have a TON of elements in their story, delivery, and cinematography that only really stand out when you've seen them once to gather what's going on, and then watch again to look for hints of the other things happening at the same time that inform parts of the rest of the big picture. That's the biggest reason I'd give, to rewatch it, is because it's very much how ALL his films are designed.




X

 

[Roger]

I mean... Fett plays an INCREDIBLY pivotal role in TESB, despite the fact that he hardly speaks. He manages to track down the Falcon when it escapes the rest of the Empire, and is also the central connecting thread that drags Han back into the past that he's been neglecting since we met him. Additionally, he has a strong rapport with both Vader and Jabba, but operates on his own, which is what presents the sense of mystery around him. That, plus a REALLY cool design means that, unceremonious possible death in the Sarlaac or not, he's still a character a lot of people really latched onto for being "cool". Then there's the whole Mandalorian thing etc that just builds up on that.

He doesn't interact with Jabba. At all. That and implying his death wasn't meant as a death is giving Return of the Jedi credit for it's usage of Boba Fett that it did nothing to deserve.

When presented with the backstory of, "you know the massive amounts of incapable Imperial cannon fodder troops? Yeah, he's actually one of those, but still good at stuff because he's actually just a completely unmodified clone of his dad."

That's bad not only because it's wholly unsatisfying that he's not really a unique character at all anymore, but you've tied him too closely into the middle of everything for a character that was distinctly standalone from the center of everything to do with the Empire.

He's still more distinct now from the stormtroopers then Yoda and Obi-Wan are from the Jedi masses gunned down by those incapable imperial fodder troops. Any Jedi Master does exactly what Obi-Wan does and will generally give the same answers to questions they would. Back in the early EU when Boba Fett was a Mandalorian, he had more people he was close to interchangable with then he does now. They disconnected what Boba Fett is like from what an average Mandalorian is like and they've expanded on Clone troopers beyond just being Jango Fett clones plenty.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

He doesn't interact with Jabba. At all. That and implying his death wasn't meant as a death is giving Return of the Jedi credit for it's usage of Boba Fett that it did nothing to deserve.

I mean... From the basic framework of the story, we know that he was working for Jabba as a bounty hunter, and delivered what Jabba called, "his most prized possession" – Solo in Carbonite. They don't need to share dialogue to have a close working relationship. Also, I wasn't at all implying that the film itself doesn't treat the event as his death. I was addressing it regardless of what larger context you were looking at it in: Legends or Current.

He's still more distinct now from the stormtroopers then Yoda and Obi-Wan are from the Jedi masses gunned down by those incapable imperial fodder troops. Any Jedi Master does exactly what Obi-Wan does and will generally give the same answers to questions they would. Back in the early EU when Boba Fett was a Mandalorian, he had more people he was close to interchangable with then he does now. They disconnected what Boba Fett is like from what an average Mandalorian is like and they've expanded on Clone troopers beyond just being Jango Fett clones plenty.

In context of JUST the films, it's really a letdown. In the OT, Boba Fett had a legacy tied to the Mandalorians, but the film developed his connections to the clone army which makes him seem very run-of-the-mill, and the only unique part is clinging to his dad's legacy, which isn't expanded upon at all.

SINCE then, the expanded universe canon has done a good job of making what was presented in the prequels monumentally better. Hell, Commander Rex proves that you can take a "generic clone" character and really give them something that makes them stand out and unique, but that's by spending time separating them from the generic cannon fodder legacy of the Clone/Storm Troopers, which goes to illustrate why creating that connection is inherently problematic and reductive for what was previously a unique character.




X

 

[Roger]

I mean... From the basic framework of the story, we know that he was working for Jabba as a bounty hunter, and delivered what Jabba called, "his most prized possession" – Solo in Carbonite. They don't need to share dialogue to have a close working relationship. Also, I wasn't at all implying that the film itself doesn't treat the event as his death. I was addressing it regardless of what larger context you were looking at it in: Legends or Current.

More is implied of Boba and Jango Fett's relationship with Dooku in the actual movie then anything they did with Jabba. Boba only came across a chance to complete this contract that he and Greedo knew of by happenstance when he was recruited by Vader amongst a pool of several bounty hunters. People have taken the finger waving and "no disintegrations" line and run with it and that's good but it was all the OT gave them. It wasn't much.

In context of JUST the films, it's really a letdown. In the OT, Boba Fett had a legacy tied to the Mandalorians, but the film developed his connections to the clone army which makes him seem very run-of-the-mill, and the only unique part is clinging to his dad's legacy, which isn't expanded upon at all.

His action figure's flavor text said his armor was Mandalorian, which spawned an army of characters that look exactly like Boba Fett and have the exact job he does. Mandalorian generally wear armor just like Boba Fett and work as bounty hunters and mercenaries just like Boba Fett. That's what they were. It took sidesteps like Episode II to push them to be more distinct and make Boba Fett more distinct from them, it wasn't perfect but it didn't ruin anything that wasn't very problematic in it's own right.

SINCE then, the expanded universe canon has done a good job of making what was presented in the prequels monumentally better. Hell, Commander Rex proves that you can take a "generic clone" character and really give them something that makes them stand out and unique, but that's by spending time separating them from the generic cannon fodder legacy of the Clone/Storm Troopers, which goes to illustrate why creating that connection is inherently problematic and reductive for what was previously a unique character.

To each his own, I suppose. I preferred Rex as a clone captain then as someone who takes great pride in his time as a clone captain but denies any common ground with the stormtroopers in the same thought with a clear concience. That's in my mind another instance of "cool character wish fulfillment" in clear contradiction with what Lucas intended.

Lucas' vision has plenty problem but I prefer trying to improve upon that cannon fodder legacy then playing into it super hard yet not bearing to let it impact your favourite character at all like in Rebels. Kanan's initial distrust of clone troopers and aversion to being addressed with a military rank by them was more interesting to me.

 

[Clement Rage]

You should watch TLJ again, and I should finally get around to seeing Extended BvS.

Deal.

What "No Disintegrations" implied to me was that Fett actually had a reputation for screwing up. He disintegrates people that he's was meant to bring in alive often enough to need a special warning. Jabba hires dozens of bounty hunters, that by itself doesn't mean much.

That's bad not only because it's wholly unsatisfying that he's not really a unique character at all anymore, but you've tied him too closely into the middle of everything for a character that was distinctly standalone from the center of everything to do with the Empire. It's the same issue with C-3PO being built by Anakin. It's taking elements that didn't need to be explicitly tied into this small central group, and looping everything in too close together. It's easily the biggest pitfall when it comes to making prequel content for literally ANY story.

'Unsatisfying' varies a lot from person to person. I get the 'everything is too tied together' pitfall (it's one of my biggest issues with Before Crisis), but I find that it's largely the EU (both versions) that's guilty of that. Lucas was actually pretty good at introducing new elements because of the big galaxy, but both EUs are not nearly as good at it. R2 and C3PO have natural progression from their parents to their children, it's not that implausible.

In the OT, Mandalor wasn't mentioned at all IIRC. Any ties to Mandalor came from the EU. He was just 'uniquely designed bounty hunter'. Then it turned out that his only real trait, unique armour, wasn't unique armour, it was the Mandalorian uniform.

you know the massive amounts of incapable Imperial cannon fodder troops

They're only ineffective as a meme, because people forgot they had orders to let the Rebels escape the Death Star. Fett's OT motivations and actions have nothing to do with cloning or stormtroopers, he's just a bounty hunter among many.

In backstory, you're attempting to establish the things that fundamentally drive the character to become who they were when we already knew them. The constraints of storytelling that inherently exist when you're composing prequel content is always problematic, because to some degree it is REQUIRED to play into your expectations, because you're moving towards a pre-established trajectory. Depending on how well you do or don't design that, you can even undermine the original work by altering a characters' underlying motivations. (Han shoots first being a prime example of Han being a gives-no-fucks smuggler who eventually comes around to doing the right thing, to Han being portrayed as always having been a pretty good guy who never would've just straight up murdered a dude hunting him down).

In continuing story, you're exposing a character to different developments and changes and taking them from someone we knew into someone slightly different along with the changes in setting. So long as you start off with the established character, it's easy to change their circumstances and have them develop into something different, because you don't have a pre-written end goal that they have to achieve. That follows the same rule as all basic storytelling, so it doesn't have the same pitfalls and problems that prequels run into, because it's the same as the development that we see all the time.

I dunno, I'm not seeing a huge distinction. They're both an issue of characters being different from expectations due to the passage of time. Whether it's Dumbledore having questionable views in his youth or Aang and Katara not being perfect parents,it's broadly an issue of fans being over inclined to take ownership of something that doesn't belong to them and then revolting when it doesn't conform to preconceived expectations.

To be clear,everyone is free to dislike how a story turns, but it's not a betrayal of the fanbase to not conform to expectations. And that applies just as much to the PT as the ST. But t's largely not being done.

It's honestly difficult to find criticism of the PT that amounts to more than 'I don't like that turn of events.' The only real solid one is that Natalie and Hayden couldn't carry the dramatic weight they had to work with.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Spoiler: Not a spoiler, but this Fett tangent is way off from the main point now, so I wanted to quarrantine it.

More is implied of Boba and Jango Fett's relationship with Dooku in the actual movie then anything they did with Jabba. Boba only came across a chance to complete this contract that he and Greedo knew of by happenstance when he was recruited by Vader amongst a pool of several bounty hunters. People have taken the finger waving and "no disintegrations" line and run with it and that's good but it was all the OT gave them. It wasn't much.

I mean, Fett is also very particular about ensuring that Solo isn't killed when they volunteer Han to test the Carbonite freezing process, so he knows a good bit about the contract, and there's no indication Fett only knew about the contract through happenstance or who he was directly hired by. Additionally, none of the other Bounty Hunters hanging around with Vader are also seen at Jabba's Palace. It's been a significant period of time between TESB & ROTJ, so Fett's clearly got some standing there (though whether that's before or as a result of Han's delivery isn't clear). Insofar as his overall notoriety and standing with Vader, there's the "No disintegrations" line, but there's also the, "He's no good to me dead" line. He's pretty much the only random character who speaks in a demanding way towards Vader (all the others are soon-to-be-regretting-that-decision Imperial officers). The fact that he's otherwise totally quiet makes those lines stand out even more for the tone that he has in the few lines he has.

His action figure's flavor text said his armor was Mandalorian, which spawned an army of characters that look exactly like Boba Fett and have the exact job he does. Mandalorian generally wear armor just like Boba Fett and work as bounty hunters and mercenaries just like Boba Fett. That's what they were. It took sidesteps like Episode II to push them to be more distinct and make Boba Fett more distinct from them, it wasn't perfect but it didn't ruin anything that wasn't very problematic in it's own right.

I mean... I think feels like a pretty weak argument to say that, "He was too much like all the other completely-non-film-explored Mandalorians that were designed based off of him – so instead they make him a Clone of Pre-Imperial Troopers that are literally all duplicates to make him and the Mandalorians unique again."

To each his own, I suppose. I preferred Rex as a clone captain than as someone who takes great pride in his time as a clone captain but denies any common ground with the stormtroopers in the same thought with a clear conscience. That's in my mind another instance of "cool character wish fulfillment" in clear contradiction with what Lucas intended.

Given the Order 66-laced Control Chips, the Clones literally had no choice or autonomy but to serve as troops for their commanders. Stormtroopers are pretty much all voluntarily recruited to the Empire's cause. I can't see Rex & the other Clones who escaped being turned during Order 66 having ANY common ground with Stormtroopers, because they fought for a Republic, not ever for an Empire. That's like saying that Obi-Wan should feel common ground to Imperial Commanders because he spent time fighting as a commander of Clone Troops.

Lucas' vision has plenty problem but I prefer trying to improve upon that cannon fodder legacy then playing into it super hard yet not bearing to let it impact your favourite character at all like in Rebels. Kanan's initial distrust of clone troopers and aversion to being addressed with a military rank by them was more interesting to me.

(Not sure what it's more interesting than to you, but it seems like it's just about personal preferences).

Getting off of the nit-picking about the specifics of Fett, the point I was making broadly speaking is that over-focusing on something enigmatic robs it of that quality – especially when designing that content as a prequel to existing content. Additionally, just because someone was a fan favourite or exceptionally meme-worthy minor character doesn't mean that the story should attempt to further tie them to the spotlight at any opportunity in subsequent films.

Yes, Ackbar died unceremoniously off-screen – and that's fine. There's no good reason to've given Holdo's part to him ...though I do bet that there'd be a lot less bitching if he didn't share his plans with the recently demoted Poe just because fanboyism would inherently trust him with command because everyone feels like they already know him, which just further reinforces the whole point behind Holdo's character being a not-well-known Commanding Officer taking over.





X

 

[X-SOLDIER]

You should watch TLJ again, and I should finally get around to seeing Extended BvS.

Deal.

Excellent! Should we have a deadline and convene and discuss in the relevant threads after that period of time?

I dunno, I'm not seeing a huge distinction. They're both an issue of characters being different from expectations due to the passage of time. Whether it's Dumbledore having questionable views in his youth or Aang and Katara not being perfect parents,it's broadly an issue of fans being over inclined to take ownership of something that doesn't belong to them and then revolting when it doesn't conform to preconceived expectations.

To be clear, everyone is free to dislike how a story turns, but it's not a betrayal of the fanbase to not conform to expectations. And that applies just as much to the PT as the ST. But t's largely not being done.

It's honestly difficult to find criticism of the PT that amounts to more than 'I don't like that turn of events.' The only real solid one is that Natalie and Hayden couldn't carry the dramatic weight they had to work with.

Over-reliance on CGI, splicing takes together, and poor editing. That's really what makes the Prequels weak more than anything. It's the same thing that makes many parts of the Special Editions weaker than the untouched Original Trilogy. Lucas is an excellent creator, but should never, EVER be his own editor. I think that all of his storytelling in the Clone Wars series worked really well because he got to pitch the big ideas and have other people execute his visions, especially with Dave Filoni being his protogé (Ahsoka in general, as well as The Mortis Gods being really big examples of stories and characters coming from George, but being executed well by being in other peoples' hands).

I'd personally also add in the Prequels tying too many things together unnecessarily. C-3PO's introduction as Bail Organa's personal protocol droid in III would've been just fine and also explained his over-focus on formality as compared to R2's more scrappy runabout nature, as well as given R2 & 3PO plenty of time to get acquainted. He didn't need to be babby Vader's first droid for his mom. Even though I dislike that choice, it can be used well, but I think that the main trend of, "all the cool people HAVE to have met, or at least bumped into all the other cool people" thing is largely problematic – especially in a story about a massive galaxy. The degrees of separation between everyone get slowly unbelievable. It's also the biggest issue that I have with some of the Star Wars comics, though the focus on expanding the scope of the storytelling to a larger cast is helping with that a lot.


A couple misc. personal examples where I wanted something from a Star Wars story we didn't get, and I had feelings about it:


• I still think it'd've been awesome for Rey to've been Luke's kid. She wasn't. I'm cool with that, and actually ended up liking that more than having her as a proper Skywalker or child-of-someone-cool-we-knew, actually ended up being cooler for me the longer I've gotten to sit with it.

• I'd've LOVED to've seen Maul face off against Vader in Rebels. He didn't. I'm cool with that never having happened. There're very good reasons for the overall story that that shouldn't've occurred, and wrapped up more satisfyingly because it didn't. But I still really would've fucking LOVED to've seen that because there's a ton of meat in having Palpatine's shunned apprentice take on the new one. (I'd love to see it done as a one-shot "What If?" comic where Maul stays behind to fight Vader, rather than Ahsoka. Just for fun. I'm obviously still not over this one completely, but I am over the idea of it happening in canon in any form).




X

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Kind of a tangent to a tangent, but --

Additionally, none of the other Bounty Hunters hanging around with Vader are also seen at Jabba's Palace. It's been a significant period of time between TESB & ROTJ, so Fett's clearly got some standing there (though whether that's before or as a result of Han's delivery isn't clear).

Dengar and Bossk are there too.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Kind of a tangent to a tangent, but --

Additionally, none of the other Bounty Hunters hanging around with Vader are also seen at Jabba's Palace. It's been a significant period of time between TESB & ROTJ, so Fett's clearly got some standing there (though whether that's before or as a result of Han's delivery isn't clear).

Dengar and Bossk are there too.

Woah! I have totally never noticed them before! Thanks for the correction.




X

 

[Clement Rage]

Excellent! Should we have a deadline and convene and discuss in the relevant threads after that period of time?

Your call. My schedule is pretty open.

Getting off of the nit-picking about the specifics of Fett, the point I was making broadly speaking is that over-focusing on something enigmatic robs it of that quality – especially when designing that content as a prequel to existing content. Additionally, just because someone was a fan favourite or exceptionally meme-worthy minor character doesn't mean that the story should attempt to further tie them to the spotlight at any opportunity in subsequent films.

I'm agreed of this in principle, but I don't feel that this was a problem of the films themselves...C3PO could have been elsewhere, but I don't consider it a problem that he wasn't. Anakin's property that was returned to him and became the property of his wife, and then Leia (because he was on Padme's ship) doesn't seem unnatural to me. There was no reason the clone template had to be Jengo, but it wasn't especially a problem that it was. Lucas was quite good at introducing new elements (Dooku, Grievous) overall, even when many people might have preferred the neat tie in. I feel like it's not the main films that mostly fall victim to this.

One of the biggest victims of over connectedness for me that I suspect you disagree on is

Spoiler: Clone Wars/Rebels

Darth Maul. Bringing him back gave us some cool scenes, (my favourite is easily the Emperor finally getting to cut loose) but it doesn't seem impossible for, say, Savage or Ventress to conquer Mandalor with similar results. Much of the impact of Maul in TPM is because of how much was unknown, and how much character came through despite that.

Over-reliance on CGI, splicing takes together, and poor editing.

Would you mind expanding on this? Because when I go looking for prequel criticisms, despite how much is out there, most of what I find seems to be dumb memes or personal taste like "Jar Jar exists!"

What constitutes overuse of CGI? CGI is a tool like any other, why is it treated like some inherently bad thing? Why do you feel it's overused?

Splicing takes together, I can't say it's something I ever noticed, what do you mean?

Poor editing is another thing I see a lot, but no one seems to expand on it beyond saying 'poor/bad editing.' How and why?

Sorry if this is pushing things on you, it's just odd that for a film so many people seem to hate, nobody seems to be willing to explain beyond (usually wrong) memes and jeering that doesn't come with an explanation.

 

[Ghost X]

How Force Awakens should have ended:

Spoiler

https://streamable.com/98lqi

 

[Roger]

Spoiler: Not a spoiler, but this Fett tangent is way off from the main point now, so X wanted to quarantine it.

I mean, Fett is also very particular about ensuring that Solo isn't killed when they volunteer Han to test the Carbonite freezing process, so he knows a good bit about the contract, and there's no indication Fett only knew about the contract through happenstance or who he was directly hired by.

Vader didn't plan on hiring bounty hunters until after they managed to get away, and as Tres point out, only half of them are indicated to be on retainer by Jabba, so the opportunity as far as we can tell did come up by happenstance.

I mean... I think feels like a pretty weak argument to say that, "He was too much like all the other completely-non-film-explored Mandalorians that were designed based off of him – so instead they make him a Clone of Pre-Imperial Troopers that are literally all duplicates to make him and the Mandalorians unique again."

Take it up with the guy who brought up the Mandalorian connection he didn't have in OT movies itself for why he had so much going for him in the OT movies that Episode 2 messed up.

Given the Order 66-laced Control Chips, the Clones literally had no choice or autonomy but to serve as troops for their commanders. Stormtroopers are pretty much all voluntarily recruited to the Empire's cause. I can't see Rex & the other Clones who escaped being turned during Order 66 having ANY common ground with Stormtroopers, because they fought for a Republic, not ever for an Empire. That's like saying that Obi-Wan should feel common ground to Imperial Commanders because he spent time fighting as a commander of Clone Troops.

The Clone Wars/Rebels writers didn't write in this version of Rex because the chips existed, it's the other way around. And yes, Obi-Wan and Captain Rex conquered the galaxy on Palpatine's behalf, they have everything to do with why this or that Imperial Commander has the job he does. Not something you wanna puff out your chest for in the Imperial Era.

Getting off of the nit-picking about the specifics of Fett, the point I was making broadly speaking is that over-focusing on something enigmatic robs it of that quality – especially when designing that content as a prequel to existing content. Additionally, just because someone was a fan favourite or exceptionally meme-worthy minor character doesn't mean that the story should attempt to further tie them to the spotlight at any opportunity in subsequent films.

Yes, Ackbar died unceremoniously off-screen – and that's fine. There's no good reason to've given Holdo's part to him ...though I do bet that there'd be a lot less bitching if he didn't share his plans with the recently demoted Poe just because fanboyism would inherently trust him with command because everyone feels like they already know him, which just further reinforces the whole point behind Holdo's character being a not-well-known Commanding Officer taking over.

X

I'm not saying Boba Fett or Ackbar definitely should or shouldn't be used in Star Wars Episodes, but I definitely don't think an air of mystery a paper thin character has projected in the heads of the fanbase is a reason he should not be used in the movies he was created to be used in.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Excellent! Should we have a deadline and convene and discuss in the relevant threads after that period of time?

Your call. My schedule is pretty open.

Next weekend? TLJ'll be out in BluRay then, so I'll likely've had a chance to rewatch it at home, and it'll give me a chance to hunt down Extended BvS as well.

(Also, you made a good point about Maul & I agree with Minato's last point, but I REALLY wanted to dive into this next part, so I'm cutting those responses a bit short, I'm sorry. Plz 2 4give)

Over-reliance on CGI, splicing takes together, and poor editing.

Would you mind expanding on this? Because when I go looking for prequel criticisms, despite how much is out there, most of what I find seems to be dumb memes or personal taste like "Jar Jar exists!"

What constitutes overuse of CGI? CGI is a tool like any other, why is it treated like some inherently bad thing? Why do you feel it's overused?

Splicing takes together, I can't say it's something I ever noticed, what do you mean?

Poor editing is another thing I see a lot, but no one seems to expand on it beyond saying 'poor/bad editing.' How and why?

Sorry if this is pushing things on you, it's just odd that for a film so many people seem to hate, nobody seems to be willing to explain beyond (usually wrong) memes and jeering that doesn't come with an explanation.

I would LOVE to expand on this. It's gonna come with several videos. Of everything I've ever watched, this is FAR AWAY most important to get a background on this subject, and it is a video I've shared a number of times:

That gets into the fundamental flaws that George Lucas has when he's editing his own material, and why my main criticism of the Prequels & the Special Editions are HEAVILY centered around his editing decisions, because as soon as you're familiar with his flaws as an editor, you can see how they bleed into the Prequels, where he wasn't kept in check by a team like he was with the OT.

That is FAR AND AWAY the biggest issue with those films, and why most all solutions to the films lie in changing the edits. There're COUNTLESS versions of the Prequels that tighten-them up, but don't fundamentally change the story being told (and also the fan-edit "Revisited" versions of the OT the retain the newer effects, but keep closer the original edits).

When I rewatched all the films last year, it became VERY apparent that George's edits often attempt to artificially insert moments of comedy unnecessarily. It's like he doesn't trust that the films are fun or amusing enough on their own, and attempts to create it. That isn't to say that things or characters can't inherently just BE funny. I personally don't have a fundamental issue with Jar-Jar at all. If you keep to him being clumsy and goofy, but dial back the over-the-top way that he's focused on in the cuts by the TINIEST bit, he's no longer obnoxious at all. Another example is the entire C-3PO in the Battle Droid Factory getting his head swapped around slapstick routine. It doesn't add anything, doesn't really feel believable, and is added primarily for comedy. A ton of the small edits that are in the OT Special editions are this, and that's when they're most noticeable (Han unnecessarily stepping on Jabba's tail, when Jabba is a ruthless crimelord as an obvious example).

Then, when the Prequels come along, his ex-wife is no longer his editor, so he's completely back in charge of making all of his own editing decisions again (which is a terrible idea). Along with that comes the technology to splice together multiple takes, which contributes to that issue EVEN further. He isn't great at editing, and this gave him even more ways to muddy up takes, because the on-screen actors aren't actually responding to each other, they're responding to things from a different take.

This article breaks it down really well and has a few time-stamped clips of it from those films, and also shows George talking about the process: https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-...g-spotted-in-return-of-the-jedi-a6798621.html
(Please check this out before continuing)

Then, there're the CGI decisions. The Prequels DO use practical effects: probably more than you think that they do.

That being said, the CGI decisions for the Clone Troopers ALONE haunt these films because they're so heavily pervasive throughout. Those of the types of things that just stand out unnaturally all over the place, when there's no reason to've not had SOME practical shots of Clone Troopers. Additionally, there ARE a lot of sets that are just green screen for the films as well and they don't age well at all, and are another contributing factor to actors not responding to things added digitally later. There're plenty of other things like shown in the video where they used miniatures or CGI-dressed sets, and sometimes those CGI additions (like the Kaminoan weather) to those real sets make the whole setting feel fake.

It's the culmination of all those things that plague the Prequels.





X

 

[Obsidian Fire]

It says a lot about the Prequals' editing that their presentation can be improved so much just by re-editing the already existing footage. I'd be very interested in seeing what could be done with them if editors had access to all the takes un-cut.

 

[Lulcielid]

They would perhaps still need extra footage via reshoots because in order to fix certain issues they would need to do re-structing and certain scenes could not work in said restructuring.

 

[Clement Rage]

That's not bad editing, X. Those are the kind of minor issues that you get in any (and I do mean ANY) major film. It took ten years for anybody to even notice that Palpatine edit, if that's a major flaw that Star Wars fanbase nitpicking has reached new heights of silliness. I can't believe an article even got written about that.

Bad editing is things like 'where did the gun go?' 'when did he grow a beard' 'what's going on in this fight' 'how did she get to that door from the chair'.

And then you posted an entire video about how people are wrongly blaming CGI for things that were actually practical effects. It doesn't really support your point, it just emphasises how wrongheaded that criticism is.

CGI clone troopers were necessary because otherwise you need thousands of extras that have to be paid, costumed, fed, etc. There would be an obvious inconsistency in close in practical shots, to the point that even today's tech hasn't nailed it down, just look at 'Tom Holland in a suit' v 'CGI Spiderman'. And I'm sure people would be complaining about that just as much. You'd also immediately run into issues like 'are all our extras the exact same height.'

To even have this conversation, you're having to really really really zoom in on the details to have things to talk about. That the films stand up to scrutiny this well is actually making me realise just how well the prequels are put together. Swarming over every detail in a way that practically no film could stand up to still isn't finding valid criticisms, to the point that people have to zoom in on stuff like that inconsequential Palpatine shot.

That is damn good filmmaking.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

The big problem I have with the Prequals is how they don't tonally fit in with the information/reactions we were given in Episodes 4-6. The editing is something that while it isn't a deal-breaker, its very hard not to notice once you've noticed it. What's most annoying is that a lot of it feels like a second round of edits would have fixed the majority of the issues and tightened a lot of scenes. The fact that I've seen fan-edits that better fit both the tone of Episodes 4-6 (some rewrite certain scenarios, some don't) and have editing that doesn't feel as bothersome really does not help.

Short List of Tonal stuff that bothers me

The Jedi: the first major reaction we see to them in 4-6 is Han Solo's reaction. He thinks they're a bunch of weirdos who believe in something that doesn't exist. Going by how Revenge ends, where does he get this from? It sounds like he thinks they still exist almost and that that impression of Jedi is a common impression everyone has of them.

The Senate: In Episodes 4-6 the Senate comes off as still being functional, at least enough that the Emperor is interested in who the senators are anyway and is keeping an eye on certain ones. The prequels change this to the Senate being dysfunctional for decades due to lots of planning, etc.

Vader/Emperor Relationship: We know Vader works for the Emperor and that the Emperor is his boss and very little else. Oh and we know that it takes the Emperor torturing his son to get him to do anything about it. Given what his reaction to finding out he killed Padme is... yeah... why did it have to go that far for Vader to snap?

Shortish List of Stuff within the prequals that bothers me

The Timeskip Between Menace and Clones: I can buy that the Anakin in Revenge is the same Anakin in Clones who has been though a war. They're similar enough, the changes in his character makes enough sense and the timeskip is short enough for it to work. The Anakin in Menace vs the Anakin in Clones though? They might as well be two different characters that happen to share the same name because their motivations are so different. The timeskip was too long over a very crucial development period (older kid to older teen) where Anakins motivations changed off-screen. In Phantom, he's a slave kid who wants to help someone out only to leave his mom and then be told it's a bad thing he misses her. In Clones, he's a hotshot pilot with a crush who's getting visions that the people he cares about are going to die and the people who should be supporting him are dismissing it. Like... how did we get here from Menace? Clones almost works better if you don't know Menace came before it. At least then you're not comparing two different takes on a character.

Padme and Obi-Wan have the opposite problem. They're very obviously the same characters they are in Menace all the way though Revenge. This wouldn't be so bad if it didn't make Anakin's character change from Menace to Clones even more obvious and jarring.

Anakin/Palpatine Relationship: This is way, way too rushed for how important it is to the entire series. It gets no build-up in Menace and Clones and then becomes super important in Revenge. At the start of Revenge, it's pretty obvious that Anakin and Obi-Wan have a great rapport built between the two of them which started in Menace. And somehow this gets flipped in only two hours of film? Because Anakin makes just as good a connection with Palpatine in the same amount of screen-time? It just makes no sense to me given how little we see Anakin interact with Palpatine that their relationship would turn out the way it did. It's show vs. tell all over again.

And if Palpatine was using the Dark Side to mess with Anakin... this could have been made way more obvious... The sad part is, going that route and taking agency away from the characters makes the whole Anakin/Emperor relationship across the series make way more sense then it does as is. But then Anakins character has pretty much nothing going for it...

As far as editing goes... a lot of the scenes in the Prequals feel like extra things are tacked on/left in that don't add anything important/relevant to what the scene is trying to get across. None of those movies feel "tight" in their editing jobs and I often find myself asking "why what this scene/gag/etc. left in/added? It doesn't bring anything to the story." Enough of the scenes have "unrelevant" things in them that it feels like time (and film) are being wasted.

I'd contrast that feeling with directors like Nolan where it's very difficult to find unrelevant things that are added/left in. There's enough directors that do tighter editing jobs then Lucas does for it to be noticeable that his films suffer for it.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

To even have this conversation, you're having to really really really zoom in on the details to have things to talk about. That the films stand up to scrutiny this well is actually making me realise just how well the prequels are put together. Swarming over every detail in a way that practically no film could stand up to still isn't finding valid criticisms, to the point that people have to zoom in on stuff like that inconsequential Palpatine shot.

That is damn good filmmaking.

I think you're either overlooking X's point or underestimating the brain's ability to discern incongruities in social (e.g. facial reactions) or spatial (e.g. environmental boundaries) elements at a subconscious level. Those movies just feel off in so many places that it has to add up (down?) to a negative sum, and they always did for me, even long before I knew this tech stuff is what could be feeling so off about them.

X said "It's the culmination of all those things that plague the Prequels," and that rings so true -- to my own experience with these movies at any rate. They feel artificial in just so many ways (humor, actors' reactions to one another, environments, CGI, etc.) that it's hard to ever feel like you're looking at something that could actually exist in reality -- be it "in a galaxy far, far away" or somewhere else.

 

[Ite]

Whether it's a composite of practical effects or CGI, the end result is still gross-looking green screen and actors looking at golf balls.