Star Wars: Episode 7, 8... and BEYOND!

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
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TresDias
I'd have summed up the irrational Sequel Trilogy hate comments more as "Rian Johnson is a disrespectful, incompetent sack of bantha feces who should never be allowed to work again but be kept alive so he can be forced to watch his family starve in front of his eyes; meanwhile, Kathleen Kennedy is a man-hating, deceptive SJW shrew who needs to be handed over to literal pirates and subjected to the worst things a woman can be before finally being burned alive."

Like, if I'm even exaggerating about this, it's only a little bit.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
I'd have summed up the irrational Sequel Trilogy hate comments more as "Rian Johnson is a disrespectful, incompetent sack of bantha feces who should never be allowed to work again but be kept alive so he can be forced to watch his family starve in front of his eyes; meanwhile, Kathleen Kennedy is a man-hating, deceptive SJW shrew who needs to be handed over to literal pirates and subjected to the worst things a woman can be before finally being burned alive."

Like, if I'm even exaggerating about this, it's only a little bit.

I mean that sounds like how the Prequel hate was back in the day, so same shit different day.
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
Very possible I'm moving in different circles, but it's most the 'angry fan rant' kind of bullshit, professional organisations aren't weighing in in the same way, and there were also things like active bullying of Jake Lloyd that forced him out of acting. Ahmed Best got death threats too. And they seemed to have relatively few defenders as far as I know. I don't think there was anything like the anti backlash backlash in the PT days, even when someone's childhood actually was being ruined. It was the PT, so it was okay. I hope you can correct me here, I'd like to be wrong.

The TLJ bullshit is largely being called out as the bullshit it is, whereas prequel hate seems to be more tolerated, news media is taking the hate seriously, whereas ST racist sexist bullshit is largely being considered racist sexist bullshit. But this is hard to quantify and this is a stupid conversation anyway, so I'm sorry.

I'm not for a second condoning or endorsing any of the hate, for the record.

The thing about Pegg's comments is, he's not an angry dude on the internet. He has script influence on TFA, and he's allowed to say 'I have no respect for anyone that thinks those films are good' and using terms like 'infanticide' He's on the actual crew of the ST, and is openly allowed to hate the previous films and call it comparable to George Lucas 'killing his kid' while promoting TFA. That's not something I see ever happening with the ST, and if it did there would be consequences for such unprofessional behaviour. But it's the prequels, so it's okay.

A bad film is no excuse for personal abuse, whether ST, PT, or some youtube video in someone's yard. It's not more okay based on whether you like the films or not.

Sorry, I'll shut up now.
 
For lack of a better place to post about it, last night on Netflix I watched a documentary about Star Wars toys.

"The Toys That Made Us - Episode 1 - Star Wars"

It was an interesting look into the business history of Star Wars toys, famous toy examples (Boba Fett with rocket launcher!) and the huge collections that exist out there.

As a person who was never particularly drawn into the toy side of Star Wars fandom, yet always hearing about their importance to the franchise history, this documentary filled a void in my knowledge. Can recommend this documentary series.

The other episodes I can currently watch:
Episode 2 - Barbie
Episode 3 - He-Man
Episode 4 - G.I. Joe​
 

Cthulhu

Administrator
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Yop
I've watched that series too, the Star Wars one is probably the best - although He-Man is also good, moreso because that was a franchise that was literally about selling toys.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X


I think that this did really well in hitting some points about the tonal differences, and one of the reasons that Finn & Rose's story doesn't feel as strong as Rey & Ben's arc.





X :neo:
 

Lulcielid

Eyes of the Lord
AKA
Lulcy
I think the problem is less so in restablishing that Finn hasn't align with the resistance and that his only concern is Rey (because the movie already does so with the initial failed escape scene followed by another where he flat out tells Rose that he wants take Rey away from the conflict), what I do agree is that they could have emphasied in Finn struggling to chose between morally having to align with the Resistance's cause or remaining neutral.
 
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X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
I don't think that I could disagree with that analysis more thoroughly, because it seems to rest on a single premise that is patently untrue.
Still, the Disney acquisition changed the nature of “Star Wars” in fundamental, structural ways. In the May 28th, 2018, issue of the magazine, Stephen Metcalf explores Hollywood’s shift away from individuated, star-driven movies and toward sprawling “cinematic universes”—infinitely expandable constellations of intellectual property, through which actors can drift more or less at random. “Star Wars” is in the midst of this shift.

Star Wars was doing expanded universes LONG ago. It's only just that that medium actually became sustainable for massive budget properties, so Star Wars decided to transfer itself into that medium in CINEMA. It's very apparent that Star Wars was always like this from the time that Shadows of the Empire was made – which had a soundtrack, story by George Lucas and Lawrence Kasdan, and everything else one would expect from a movie without a movie itself. That was in 1996 – which was 22 years ago. Star Wars didn't change when Disney acquired it, it just had the budget and the proof-of-concept that the MCU had paved for cinematic success of the format it'd been meticulously crafting for over two decades.

Saying that somehow, because more of the additional stories that have previous been relegated to books, comics, games, and television series are also being told as films that Star Wars is going to stop being a story or that it's somehow more empty and vapid is just downright ridiculous.




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looneymoon

they/them
AKA
Rishi

I think what this article is getting that is that Disney-era Star Wars is an inherently hypocritical narrative. You can't exactly have an anti-imperialist story that comes from an establishment that is in control of over half of the industry. The same establishment that is releasing the same movie multiple times a year, accruing billions in box office revenue etc.

I think people go into things like Star Wars realizing that the narrative themes are kinda hollow. It's not gonna stop anyone from enjoying the movies. Life is hard enough without thinking too deeply about the narrative analysis for silly blockbusters that are made to appeal to widest possible demographic. That being said, I don't blame anyone from walking out of these movies and unable to shake off that empty feeling.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
I think what this article is getting that is that Disney-era Star Wars is an inherently hypocritical narrative. You can't exactly have an anti-imperialist story that comes from an establishment that is in control of over half of the industry. The same establishment that is releasing the same movie multiple times a year, accruing billions in box office revenue etc.

What...? I didn't see anywhere in the article that corporate control subtext in storytelling was what they were referring to. It's fairly clear that it's literally referring to the stories that they're telling and how they're telling them. Here's the very next part from previous section I quoted that further clarifies that:

It used to be a “saga”—a story told in the epic mode, in which the fate of the world is inextricably tied to the souls of cosmically important and irreplaceable individuals. It’s becoming a “universe,” in which atomized and interchangeable people embark on adventures that are individually exciting but ultimately inconsequential.

Star Wars has been storytelling as a "Universe" and not just as a "Saga" for well over two decades at this point. This isn't something that's new. This isn't something that's due to transition of ownership to Disney. It also doesn't make any of the stories told less meaningful because they're now pieces in a much greater whole. Literally the only difference is that some of these stories are being told as films, in addition to being told as comics, books, and tv series.




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looneymoon

they/them
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Rishi
It's pretty much the thesis of the article dude

Pollard is hypersensitive to the semiotics of brands: when a product is lame, she feels it physically, as a kind of pain.

I thought of this scene this weekend, after watching “Solo: A Star Wars Story.” “Solo” is an entertaining movie, with engaging performances, vivid production design, and enthralling action sequences. It’s also distressingly forgettable—it’s about nothing, an episode of “Seinfeld” with hyperdrive.

In 2012, when the Walt Disney Company spent around four billion dollars to buy Lucasfilm, it was hard to see the downside. Still, the Disney acquisition changed the nature of “Star Wars” in fundamental, structural ways... “Star Wars” has never been indie; it’s impossible for a merchandising empire to sell out... Each one will make the “Star Wars” universe bigger, while making each individual act within it smaller... Their presence has little meaning within “Solo,” serving only to transform it into a prequel for some yet-to-be-written follow-up.

When the universalization of “Star Wars” is complete, it will no longer be a story but an aesthetic... In film after film, interchangeable young people will wrestle with the dark side before embracing hope. There will be an infinite supply of high-speed space chases and lightsabre duels. But the story will never end, and so will have ceased to be a story.

The entire article is literally all about how Star Wars is a brand, and how the level of branding undercuts the mythos and story telling. It's about nothing. Every installation is a set up to the next thing that's ultimately gonna be the next things that's a tie in to the next thing etc. Obviously this isn't a new thing, as Star Wars has always been mainstream pop culture since the first movie. The stakes are obviously a lot different when it is essentially another serving of the MCU which does the same thing. It's no longer about story, it's about an effective business model.

It's...... really not hard to connect those dots.
 
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X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
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X
I'd still wholeheartedly disagree with that interpretation of the article.

The, "simulacra of simulacra of simulacra" bit about brands is just a quote from a novel centered on iterative dilution. It serves loosely as an example when someone physically feels aversion to something having become an over-iterated version of itself to the point where the latest version lacks any of the meaning and the inherent qualities that defined the original but only feels like something without being it:
Pollard wonders if Hilfiger’s blandness might be the source of his appeal: where most preppy clothes are freighted with meaning, Tommy allows you to look preppy without actually being that way.

While it makes that analogy of something having the same visual aesthetic of Star Wars without "being" Star Wars (which it nebulously never defines), the article itself isn't looking at Star Wars itself as a brand or a corporate machine. It's criticizing the iterations as being caused by the differences from stories driven solely as a single narrative epic, vs. those "filling space" in a wider Universe being the reason that they lack meaning. It posits that making "the Star Wars Universe" a larger setting rather than a single "Star Wars Saga" narrative only serves to make all Star Wars stories told less important. To which I have to say – That's Bullshit.

It asserts (incorrectly) that this focus on turning Star Wars into an aesthetic has come about as a result of the merger with Disney – which is absolutely untrue, because Star Wars has been doing this exact sort of focus for its storytelling for decades. I'm sorry they didn't like Solo, but the way this film tells its standalone story isn't a new sign of the times, nor is it a change in the way that Star Wars stories are told as a result of corporate purchase by Disney, nor is it diluting (nearly) all Star Wars narrative solely into an aesthetic backdrop.

For all the ways that it whines on for paragraphs about how the stories being set in a larger universe is apparently causing them to lose their intrinsically held meaning and just turn into an aesthetic that serves only to fill space – It doesn't even manage that convincingly. It cites the literally the only other non-anthology Star Wars film "Rogue One" as its exception for having a strong self-contained story (which is essentially just a part of the main story Saga). They also don't address ANY other pieces of Star Wars media that've been made which handily show that just because you're connecting dots and telling stories in a sandbox doesn't make them inherently less-meaningful. Star Wars has operated this way with its wider storytelling for AGES and it hasn't prevented it from telling great stories, so it's clearly not the sustainable business model of storytelling that's the inherent issue here.


The whole article is nothing but a long-winded and vapid attempt to say that they personally didn't feel like Solo had a narrative purpose as a story to be told. They want everyone to believe that somehow them feeling that way about this ONE FILM means that all of Star Wars is doomed to be vapid and meaningless. Then they further posit that the reason for all of these things are because it's now a universe and not a part of one big Saga – which is again, just bullshit. The only point that's obvious here is that the author feels that Star Wars can only ever be singularly-universe-defining-plot-driven narratives, and isn't allowed to tell stories that're fun to enjoy with a character about some event that's legendary in the universe itself (The Kessel Run).


The whole article ought to just be called, "Why I personally only care about the Star Wars Saga stories" and it'd be far less inaccurately presumptuous about its claims. At it's core, it's the same argument that Brandon Bird made on Twitter that I also strongly disagreed with there. To make an analogy: The The Adventures of Tom Bombadil and Other Verses from the Red Book are more lighthearted and ultimately have no impact on the events of the rest of the Tolkien Legendarium. However, the fact that Tolkien wrote that to flesh out an auxiliary part of Middle Earth doesn't mean that all other stories he was ever going to write from then on in that fantasy setting were doomed to be vapid and meaningless, because now he was clearly just interested in printing books on Middle Earth to make a living.





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Lulcielid

Eyes of the Lord
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Lulcy
The Last Jedi is coming to Netflix on June 26.



And my region only has the OT & PT :/
 
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Cthulhu

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Yop
Yeah I'll admit that Star Wars was a universe already, but they did so with - at least from my perspective - relativey low-budget side projects, stuff like idk, publishing fanfiction as canon, video games, etc. There were the prequels which idk, as far as I remember didn't live up to the hype and their main legacy nowadays is the dank memes and facepalming about Jar Jar and admitting a hatred for sand (and children). After that it was very quiet for a long time, and it took a takeover from Disney to finally revive the franchise back to the big screen. Or, attempt to anyway.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
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TresDias
The Clone Wars movie was in theatres in 2008, and that kicked off the six-season TV series to follow -- and Lucas planned from the start for it to be at least 100 episodes across at least five seasons. Despite being set in this time period from the prequel trilogy, there was a lot of "expanding the universe," so to speak, going on there as well.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
And even before that, "Shadows of the Empire" from 1996 had an enormous marketing campaign and multimedia strategy that prepared the way for the original trilogy's Special Editions to hit theatres.

"Star Wars" hasn't been quiet since the mid-90s.
 
Yeah, I don't think the Disney merger is some sort of turning point that made Star Wars a "universe" instead of a "saga" - the franchise has had that aspect to it for a while. I do agree with this point of the New Yorker article, though:

The franchise is trapped in a loop of self-love.

I think the last paragraph of the article is a pretty fair assessment, too. I really don't know much at all about the MCU (or about Star Wars beyond just the films), but Star Wars under Disney strikes me as similar to Gundam in certain respects - they're both huge series with an iconic past (each with a really iconic villain :monster: ) that tend to reuse familiar tropes. For the record, I like both Gundam and Star Wars, but they are derivative of themselves. It'll be interesting to see where Star Wars goes after the sequel trilogy is done. It definitely feels like Disney has been playing it safe so far - TLJ was really divisive, but it still had a lot of familiar elements, and the other stand alone films have focused on events or characters connected to the OT. It's understandable, given how the PT was received, but I do wonder how Disney'll fare with a story entirely disconnected from the OT.

I don't know about the "universe" aspect inherently making each individual plot have less weight, either. Personally, IMO, there’s too many films coming out too fast - Disney seems to be intent on putting out as much Star Wars content as quickly as they possibly can nowadays - but I don't think it's expanding the scope of the world that is in itself the problem.
 
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