looneymoon
they/them
- AKA
- Rishi
They could cast the version of Meryl Streep that exists in the collective memeverse imagination, and it'd still feel wrong IMO.
Star Wars: Episode 7, 8... and BEYOND!
- Thread starter Charles Xavier
- Start date
X-SOLDIER
Harbinger O Great Justice
- AKA
- X
Since the Internets are all a flutter with all of these, "Episode IX will show who Rey's parents REALLY are" things, I wanted to address why they're all bullshit – This moment right here from The Force Awakens:
Doing this is the whole reason Rey gets pulled in to everything with the Resistance, Finn, and ultimately her destiny with the Force. The moment when she decides to be better to a random little droid than her parents were to her. The start of her heroic character arc is all about looking at the failures of the figures who came before her and being determined to be better than them in the ways that matter. The Last Jedi really builds up on that, and further reinforces that message with her & Luke's difficult relationship. Rey isn't limited as a person by the history of her parents just like she isn't limited as a Jedi by their checkered past – If anything, she's even more motivated to be better than them BECAUSE of the experiences that she had with them.
Reys parents being nobodies juxtaposed by her mentor being essentially the most legendary and important person ever really drives that home. She's taking the same path to striving to be better than them, and that's what defines her as the film's central protagonist and hero – even moreso than the fact that she's Ben's balance and can use the Force super good.
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Doing this is the whole reason Rey gets pulled in to everything with the Resistance, Finn, and ultimately her destiny with the Force. The moment when she decides to be better to a random little droid than her parents were to her. The start of her heroic character arc is all about looking at the failures of the figures who came before her and being determined to be better than them in the ways that matter. The Last Jedi really builds up on that, and further reinforces that message with her & Luke's difficult relationship. Rey isn't limited as a person by the history of her parents just like she isn't limited as a Jedi by their checkered past – If anything, she's even more motivated to be better than them BECAUSE of the experiences that she had with them.
Reys parents being nobodies juxtaposed by her mentor being essentially the most legendary and important person ever really drives that home. She's taking the same path to striving to be better than them, and that's what defines her as the film's central protagonist and hero – even moreso than the fact that she's Ben's balance and can use the Force super good.
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trash panda
---m(O.O)gle---
- AKA
- Howl
I like the idea that Rey's parents are nobodies. It sort of drives home the point that a literal nobody can become somebody.
Plus, if force use and ultra powerfulness were determined solely by lineage, that would throw a huge wrench in my Star Wars alternate reality daydream that I spend 110 percent of my waking life living in.
Plus, if force use and ultra powerfulness were determined solely by lineage, that would throw a huge wrench in my Star Wars alternate reality daydream that I spend 110 percent of my waking life living in.
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Harbinger O Great Justice
- AKA
- X
Kelly Marie Tran is speaking out about what she went through. I'd bet that the timing has a little to do with the fact that the film Crazy Rich Asians is a massive hit and importance to the members of that community: this Twitter post being a fantastic example of what that sort of representation means.
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X-SOLDIER
Harbinger O Great Justice
- AKA
- X
X-SOLDIER
Harbinger O Great Justice
- AKA
- X
Lord Noctis
Harbinger of Darkness
- AKA
- Caius Ballad
So, obviously not whats happening, but if episode IX turned out be a DW crossover I would be ecstatic.
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Harbinger O Great Justice
- AKA
- X
I'm just glad because that means Matt Smith will have been in Doctor Who, Terminator, & Star Wars which just makes me ridiculously glad for him, because he's a lovely human being. Additionally, all of these casting announcements just really keeps me hoping that Hayden Christensen will get an appearance in the film at some point.
On another note, it was really interesting to hear Ahmed Best chatting about the stuff with Kelly Marie Tran recently:
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On another note, it was really interesting to hear Ahmed Best chatting about the stuff with Kelly Marie Tran recently:
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X-SOLDIER
Harbinger O Great Justice
- AKA
- X
Early in writing TLJ, Rian watched through the Mortis Arc in Clone Wars. Learning little things like this about how the other Star Wars stories influence the films is really big to me as someone who likes to tie elements of tone and theme between the various series and the films. I think that this even more thoroughly points towards all of the Anakin & Prophecy-connected themes about balance, and the ideas about the dichotomy of Light Side and Dark Side being different than just the Jedi & the Sith and being necessary for one another.
The ways that his film intentionally ties Rey & Ben together as being the balance to one another in the Force is even more poignant now:
Also, Tres pointed me towards this gem about the themes of TLJ being a redemption arc for the Jedi, and also for Yoda in particular.
Oh, and for anyone who cares, Rian Johnson did address those mean tweets that he wrote and deleted.
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The ways that his film intentionally ties Rey & Ben together as being the balance to one another in the Force is even more poignant now:
Also, Tres pointed me towards this gem about the themes of TLJ being a redemption arc for the Jedi, and also for Yoda in particular.
Oh, and for anyone who cares, Rian Johnson did address those mean tweets that he wrote and deleted.
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X-SOLDIER
Harbinger O Great Justice
- AKA
- X
Jeeze damn that was a good watch. It'd be interesting to see how much those techniques change peoples' opinions about the stories themselves, since I think that there is some stuff in Empire that is objectively less interesting from a story perspective, but more interesting in how they shot the character interactions that might explain why people don't seem to notice it as much, because what it's lacking in story (The Falcon breaking down and limping away from the Empire), it's making up for in feeling emotionally connected to the characters in those moments where they're getting development, whereas the Prequels don't give you the same techniques to achieve that connection in the same moments.
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X-SOLDIER
Harbinger O Great Justice
- AKA
- X
Just a reminder for the next time there's a rumour about Kathleen Kennedy's job supposedly being in jeopardy.
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X-SOLDIER
Harbinger O Great Justice
- AKA
- X
TLJ is the best selling BluRay, and Black Panther is #2.
Black Panther is the best selling DVD, and TLJ is #2.
Also this: https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/star-...di-blows-away-black-panther-and-lando-is-back
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Black Panther is the best selling DVD, and TLJ is #2.
Also this: https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/star-...di-blows-away-black-panther-and-lando-is-back
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X-SOLDIER
Harbinger O Great Justice
- AKA
- X
One, this video is awesome:
Two: I've been thinking a LOT about something in Star Wars, ever since Rian Johnson talked about the Mortis Arc heavily influencing The Last Jedi, and it's about the lie Obi-Wan tells Luke.
No, not that one.
That's actually true. Vader even tells Ahsoka, "Anakin Skywalker was weak. I destroyed him."
The ACTUAL lie is that, "he was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force."
Anakin wasn't seduced by the Dark Side. He was failed by the Jedi.
Qui-Gon was a student of the living Force, something like we see with Bendu in Rebels. He KNEW Anakin was the chosen one who would bring balance to the Force, but he also knew the Jedi didn't have everything right. He made Obi-Wan PROMISE to train Anakin, because he knew that the Jedi wouldn't.
Anakin only ever wanted the power to save people, regardless of where it came from. He wasn't afraid of the Dark Side, but he was taught to reject it by the Jedi. The Jedi used Anakin as a weapon of war, and then Sidious used Vader as a weapon of war in the very same way. His journey is all about balance, and he FINALLY achieves his goal when he acts on his own and saves his own son, by his own choice, free from the influence of anyone else. That's when balance is brought to the Force.
Obi-Wan doesn't teach Luke the failures of the Jedi, because he needs Luke to believe in himself AS a Jedi, and Obi-Wan doesn't understand that lesson yet. That's why Luke learns the failures of the Jedi by repeating them with Ben. He was taught that the Dark Side can be overcome, and that it's something to be feared. He wasn't left in a position to bring balance as a Jedi Master. There's a reason that the Jedi were destroyed FIRST, and the Sith only died afterwards, but it's not a lesson Luke was taught, but it's one he LEARNS, and chooses to isolate himself over, in order to bring about the NECESSARY destruction of the Jedi to achieve balance. Rey already believes in the legacy of what the Jedi are and should be, which is why the lesson of their failures and having to guide them become something different falls to HER.
The Skywalker Saga is all about Anakin becoming the vessel by which the Force is able to regain balance, which involved the destruction of the Sith, who used the power of the Dark Side for selfish destruction, but ALSO the removal of that model of conflict that was forcing the Jedi to become jealous and dogmatic guardians of the Light Side. The Force is BOTH. BOTH ARE NEEDED. That's why Luke's lessons and the messages in The Last Jedi are absolutely necessary.
That's why the end of Episode III, knowing Yoda and Obi-Wan have been speaking with Qui-Gon, and seeing how THEY change is also of utmost importance. Luke was never the final piece. With the Sith gone, the Jedi needed to return to being devoted to the Balance of the Force, and he didn't have the perspective for that, because his actions brought about the downfall of the Sith. He didn't understand that the Jedi and Sith created each other — he feared the Dark Side as a danger, but Rey ABSOLUTELY DOESN'T. She jumps right to the Dark Side cave without hesitation. Luke shows fear, but she doesn't. It's that moment that underscores WHY Luke became the perfect teacher for Rey – by showing why the Jedi can't return as they were, and by believing in Rey to make the Jedi what they needed to be.
The Jedi SHOULD have been able to guide Anakin, and not fail him – but they couldn't. Same with Luke guiding Ben, but he COULDN'T. That's how you both reject the past, but also hold onto what matters. It's the central message of what Qui-Gon initially attempts, and the only theme that would make sense as to why Episode IX would be the end of the Skywalker Saga, by finally correcting the problem with the Jedi that'd been broken since Episode I, and ACTUALLY bringing balance to the Force. Rey & Ben PERFECTLY represent that.
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Two: I've been thinking a LOT about something in Star Wars, ever since Rian Johnson talked about the Mortis Arc heavily influencing The Last Jedi, and it's about the lie Obi-Wan tells Luke.
No, not that one.
That's actually true. Vader even tells Ahsoka, "Anakin Skywalker was weak. I destroyed him."
The ACTUAL lie is that, "he was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force."
Anakin wasn't seduced by the Dark Side. He was failed by the Jedi.
Qui-Gon was a student of the living Force, something like we see with Bendu in Rebels. He KNEW Anakin was the chosen one who would bring balance to the Force, but he also knew the Jedi didn't have everything right. He made Obi-Wan PROMISE to train Anakin, because he knew that the Jedi wouldn't.
Anakin only ever wanted the power to save people, regardless of where it came from. He wasn't afraid of the Dark Side, but he was taught to reject it by the Jedi. The Jedi used Anakin as a weapon of war, and then Sidious used Vader as a weapon of war in the very same way. His journey is all about balance, and he FINALLY achieves his goal when he acts on his own and saves his own son, by his own choice, free from the influence of anyone else. That's when balance is brought to the Force.
Obi-Wan doesn't teach Luke the failures of the Jedi, because he needs Luke to believe in himself AS a Jedi, and Obi-Wan doesn't understand that lesson yet. That's why Luke learns the failures of the Jedi by repeating them with Ben. He was taught that the Dark Side can be overcome, and that it's something to be feared. He wasn't left in a position to bring balance as a Jedi Master. There's a reason that the Jedi were destroyed FIRST, and the Sith only died afterwards, but it's not a lesson Luke was taught, but it's one he LEARNS, and chooses to isolate himself over, in order to bring about the NECESSARY destruction of the Jedi to achieve balance. Rey already believes in the legacy of what the Jedi are and should be, which is why the lesson of their failures and having to guide them become something different falls to HER.
The Skywalker Saga is all about Anakin becoming the vessel by which the Force is able to regain balance, which involved the destruction of the Sith, who used the power of the Dark Side for selfish destruction, but ALSO the removal of that model of conflict that was forcing the Jedi to become jealous and dogmatic guardians of the Light Side. The Force is BOTH. BOTH ARE NEEDED. That's why Luke's lessons and the messages in The Last Jedi are absolutely necessary.
That's why the end of Episode III, knowing Yoda and Obi-Wan have been speaking with Qui-Gon, and seeing how THEY change is also of utmost importance. Luke was never the final piece. With the Sith gone, the Jedi needed to return to being devoted to the Balance of the Force, and he didn't have the perspective for that, because his actions brought about the downfall of the Sith. He didn't understand that the Jedi and Sith created each other — he feared the Dark Side as a danger, but Rey ABSOLUTELY DOESN'T. She jumps right to the Dark Side cave without hesitation. Luke shows fear, but she doesn't. It's that moment that underscores WHY Luke became the perfect teacher for Rey – by showing why the Jedi can't return as they were, and by believing in Rey to make the Jedi what they needed to be.
The Jedi SHOULD have been able to guide Anakin, and not fail him – but they couldn't. Same with Luke guiding Ben, but he COULDN'T. That's how you both reject the past, but also hold onto what matters. It's the central message of what Qui-Gon initially attempts, and the only theme that would make sense as to why Episode IX would be the end of the Skywalker Saga, by finally correcting the problem with the Jedi that'd been broken since Episode I, and ACTUALLY bringing balance to the Force. Rey & Ben PERFECTLY represent that.
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Lulcielid
Eyes of the Lord
- AKA
- Lulcy
Small clarification in the comments by Patrick, the first SW to use lightsabers as a light source was Attack of The Clones (Did a quick look and Dooku vs Anakin is one example and I dont know if there are others).
As a small follow up to the topic of cinematic language in SW, here's another small thing that Force Awakens handled differently from the rest of the franchise up to that point, the lightspeed shot (2:45). I cant remember if RO and TLJ had scenes similar to that (havent watched SOLO, yet).
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Harbinger O Great Justice
- AKA
- X
Which part of the lightspeed shot was different? I'm not sure what you're referring to.
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Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
I'm sure you are utterly shocked to learn I disagree re the failings of the Jedi.
X-SOLDIER
Harbinger O Great Justice
- AKA
- X
Please, do tell!
EDIT: Here're the clips with:
I figured I'd link all of those for context since those're likely the most important points of reference when discussing this.
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EDIT: Here're the clips with:
- Episode I: Yoda's personal misgivings about Anakin
- Episode III: Obi-Wan telling Anakin he'd failed him
- Rebels: Vader telling Ahsoka that he'd destroyed Anakin
- Episode IV: Obi-Wan telling Luke that he'd trained Vader (and Vader was seduced by the Dark Side)
- Episode VIII: Luke recounting the folly of the Jedi, including that a Jedi master was responsible for the training of Darth Vader.
I figured I'd link all of those for context since those're likely the most important points of reference when discussing this.
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Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
Preface: Anyone that wants to stop me, go ahead. I won't be offended.
Question the first: Why do the victims of genocide need a redemption arc? If it's the will of the Force that balance must be achieved by the slaughter of the Jedi down to the last child, then it's an unworthy philosophy that deserves no respect or adherence.'Do things exactly as I say, or be destroyed' How can Anakin slaughtering younglings be a situation where the Jedi are the ones at fault?
Anakin chose to kill children in the hope of saving his wife. Palpatine dangles that in front of him to draw him in. That's being seduced by the dark side. He chose. No one made him.
It is not a Jedi teaching to kill children, to crush obstacles in your path for the greater good. He did not get that from the Jedi. The worst thing the Jedi did was not save his mother because they didn't know she was in trouble.
Qui Gon is the one that uses Anakin as a weapon. He enters him into the pod race, he takes him into an active warzone in an effort to get around the Jedi Council not wanting to train him. He forces Obi Wan to take on his training. He's the one going 'you are our prophesized hero, I will point you at the Sith so you can rebalance the Force'.
The Jedi Council, by contrast, is constantly trying to keep Anakin out of danger.
"No, we don't want to train you, you're emotionally unbalanced.'
'Obi Wan, hunt down the bounty hunter. Anakin, go hang out with Padme.'
"We'll take care of Geonosis. Anakin, stay where you are.'
'Obi Wan, go after Grievous. Anakin, stay on Coruscant.'
'We will arrest Palpatine, stay here.'
Where he's sent on a mission, it's as a partner with Obi Wan, not some tool to be used and expended. Nothing is asked of him that isn't asked of any other Jedi.
What are the actual failings of the Jedi here? Let's see:
Elitist: They recruit based on ability with the force, with no restrictions on race, class, gender or bloodline. There's only one guy with a special bloodline, who is turned down based on emotional instability but is forced on them anyway.
Dogmatic: How? Divergent opinions are not suppressed. Qui Gonn is a bit of a renegade, but still commands respect. Dooku leaves the Order due to ideological differences, and the Jedi Council still holds him in respect until they find out he's about to start a war. They accept Anakin against dogma. Yoda is outvoted more than once.
Arrogant: The Jedi are the first to admit their own failings and limitations. "This is no victory. Failed we have."
"We can't fight a war for you." Usually they're overestimated and have to correct someone else.
Jealous Guardians: How?
And even if all these faults are true, they do not warrant annihilation. If annihilation is the will of the Force, then the Force doesn't deserve to be followed
Question the first: Why do the victims of genocide need a redemption arc? If it's the will of the Force that balance must be achieved by the slaughter of the Jedi down to the last child, then it's an unworthy philosophy that deserves no respect or adherence.'Do things exactly as I say, or be destroyed' How can Anakin slaughtering younglings be a situation where the Jedi are the ones at fault?
Anakin chose to kill children in the hope of saving his wife. Palpatine dangles that in front of him to draw him in. That's being seduced by the dark side. He chose. No one made him.
It is not a Jedi teaching to kill children, to crush obstacles in your path for the greater good. He did not get that from the Jedi. The worst thing the Jedi did was not save his mother because they didn't know she was in trouble.
Qui Gon is the one that uses Anakin as a weapon. He enters him into the pod race, he takes him into an active warzone in an effort to get around the Jedi Council not wanting to train him. He forces Obi Wan to take on his training. He's the one going 'you are our prophesized hero, I will point you at the Sith so you can rebalance the Force'.
The Jedi Council, by contrast, is constantly trying to keep Anakin out of danger.
"No, we don't want to train you, you're emotionally unbalanced.'
'Obi Wan, hunt down the bounty hunter. Anakin, go hang out with Padme.'
"We'll take care of Geonosis. Anakin, stay where you are.'
'Obi Wan, go after Grievous. Anakin, stay on Coruscant.'
'We will arrest Palpatine, stay here.'
Where he's sent on a mission, it's as a partner with Obi Wan, not some tool to be used and expended. Nothing is asked of him that isn't asked of any other Jedi.
What are the actual failings of the Jedi here? Let's see:
Elitist: They recruit based on ability with the force, with no restrictions on race, class, gender or bloodline. There's only one guy with a special bloodline, who is turned down based on emotional instability but is forced on them anyway.
Dogmatic: How? Divergent opinions are not suppressed. Qui Gonn is a bit of a renegade, but still commands respect. Dooku leaves the Order due to ideological differences, and the Jedi Council still holds him in respect until they find out he's about to start a war. They accept Anakin against dogma. Yoda is outvoted more than once.
Arrogant: The Jedi are the first to admit their own failings and limitations. "This is no victory. Failed we have."
"We can't fight a war for you." Usually they're overestimated and have to correct someone else.
Jealous Guardians: How?
And even if all these faults are true, they do not warrant annihilation. If annihilation is the will of the Force, then the Force doesn't deserve to be followed
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X-SOLDIER
Harbinger O Great Justice
- AKA
- X
Answer the first: By phrasing it that way, you’re framing it to just look at one small part of the cycle (the fall of the Jedi) and heavily focusing around the death of the younglings, and painting the Jedi Order ONLY as victims. They’re not. By doing so, you’re ignoring the larger whole of the context surrounding them and the conflict that arose between them and the Sith because of how they each viewed the Force as one side OR the other – never both. (Also, I'm not sure why you're stating that the things that Anakin did after becoming a Sith weren't teachings of the Jedi – that was never anything even remotely suggested by the premise).
The dogmatic nature of the Jedi in the prequels outright REJECTS the Dark aspect of the Force. Full stop. That is inherently responsible for things falling out of balance. They’re victims of their own teachings causing imbalance in the Force by attempting to reject and destroy the Dark, rather than balance and control it.
That attitude galvanizes the Dark further and further towards being trapped away from the Light, and itself falling out of balance. That leads to the conflict of Light and Dark in the prequels, which involves the War and everything else. It eventually escalates to the Dark destroying the Jedi as well as bringing about its own destruction with the fall of the Sith.
There’s also an even bigger picture of how the galaxy at large views the Jedi over the course of events during Episode II & III. That most notably involves the Jedi going from being the flawed guardians of the Light and keepers of the peace, to becoming active tools of war and murder themselves. That’s heavily covered during the Clone Wars series, and is literally the note that Season 5 (the original series finale) ended on:
That speech about the Jedi by Barriss at the trial is why one of the Temple Guards who escorted Ahsoka out of the temple, who also helped Anakin arrest Barriss and bring her in, later turns against and murders the other temple guards during Order 66. That allows Anakin to move in on the temple unchecked – slaughtering the remaining Jedi, including the younglings. Later, that temple guard becomes the Grand Inquisitor who continued to hunt down the remaining Jedi for Vader/Palpatine by using his extremely detailed knowledge of the Jedi, in order to best them and their students.
Kanan’s Force vision where the Grand Inquisitor’s origin is revealed even directly covers him confronting that rigidly dogmatic attitude towards the Dark Side of the Force – literally forcing him to pick up a red lightsaber to defend himself as his trial to become a Jedi Knight.
That’s even before looking at the continuation of the Mortis Arc into Rebels through Ahsoka, where Ahsoka is literally the embodiment of the rejection of the dogmatic Jedi way and embracing the Light Side of the Force (literally embodying the path of redemption that the Jedi need to take). Whereas Ezra is guided to accept and not to reject the Dark Side of the Force.
Ahsoka is literally killed by Son, and brought back to life by the final act of Daughter. Symbolically looking at the one thing that the Light leaves behind when the Jedi are purged.
The result of her great Jedi trial ends with her leaving the order, and rejecting the title of Jedi completely.
(EDIT: APPARENTLY EMBEDS MAX OUT AT TEN, SO THE REST OF THESE ARE JUST LINKS)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOj6R4Yjkqk
That connection from Daughter follows her in the form of the Convor Morai sitting in the space outside of time, that eventually saves her
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OLNHU9xBCM
On the other end of that, there’s Ezra who frequently interacts with the Dark Side in non-destructive ways, eventually being the antithesis of Anakin’s journey by using the same powers that he gained from interacting with the Dark Side to save his homeworld.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E82eT45UBjo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av7kJUQ0oJo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0NcZUjUW5M
That’s not even getting to the fact that the Bendu is an open force of Balanced Force who also gives the prophesy for Thrawn’s defeat (amongst many other lessons):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIfp2To9Cvg
That all comes back around in Luke’s lesson about the Force itself being about the balance, and the idea that the Light won’t die even without the Jedi (and by extension, the Dark won’t die even when the Sith have been eliminated).
https://youtu.be/EwNtFdEhHd0?t=56
The Jedi can’t be about embracing the Light and eschewing the Dark, because doing that generates conflict between both sides of the Force that NEED to exist. The Jedi need to be about embracing BOTH. The viewpoints of each side of the Force need to be about seeing the manifestations of both sides of the Force not as inherently good or evil. The sides aren’t opposed to one another, but they’re intrinsically interconnected sides of EVERYTHING: Life leads to Death, and Death leads to new Life. Day leading to Night and back again. The Jedi can be BOTH selfless, and well as selfish. There’s no inherent need to rigidly adhere to codes of detachment like the Jedi did in Episode I.
Ben’s attachments to his parents are what’s pushing him towards being GOOD. Ben wants to let the past die, and eschew all attachments to the things he once cared for, and that’s shown as being something to REJECT – despite having been a core principle of the Jedi. Rey embracing her anger allowed her to learn the correct lesson from Luke’s failures, while abandoning what looks like her place of belonging, in order to go and save her friends. The Last Jedi plays with all SORTS of ways to show how the Jedi’s teachings were fundamentally wrong, as well as how those views on the two aspects of the Force were even what generated the conflict between them to begin with.
THAT’S why the Jedi needed a redemption arc, and also how they’re been actively building up to one over the last ten years, ever since George decided to start Clone Wars and dig deeper into the bigger themes that the films weren’t able to cover.
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The dogmatic nature of the Jedi in the prequels outright REJECTS the Dark aspect of the Force. Full stop. That is inherently responsible for things falling out of balance. They’re victims of their own teachings causing imbalance in the Force by attempting to reject and destroy the Dark, rather than balance and control it.
That attitude galvanizes the Dark further and further towards being trapped away from the Light, and itself falling out of balance. That leads to the conflict of Light and Dark in the prequels, which involves the War and everything else. It eventually escalates to the Dark destroying the Jedi as well as bringing about its own destruction with the fall of the Sith.
The Light isolated on its own is selfless – but also cold and detached.
As a counterpoint, the Dark is selfish – but also emotional and caring.
Anakin, Obi-Wan, & Ahsoka’s presence there triggers the series of events that bring about the most literal portrayal of the prophesy of the Chosen One around Anakin, which is all directly from George Lucas exploring larger concepts of the Force. It’s Anakin’s trial that shows that managing the balance between the Dark & Light is necessary. It shows that the answer isn’t rejection of one in favor of saving the other, but knowingly exercising CONTROL OVER BOTH.
Brother and Daughter are shown as opposites but also VERY alike – to be equally as capable for being benevolent and as violent as the other, depending on if the violence or benevolence stems from a selfish or selfless motivator. It’s the Daughter choosing to reveal the weapon sealed in the Altar that tips the conflict past the point of no return and actually brings the Light and Dark against one another directly. Her actions ultimately result in Brother killing her with the very weapon she unlocked when attempting to free himself from Father’s control – filling Brother with even MORE rage and pain. His desire to escape and bring peace and control through power escalates, growing unchecked until eventually the Father chooses to sacrifice himself to eliminate Brother, in order to restore balance.
Also, a VERY important note for the first clip: Father tells Brother, “You’ve done what is forbidden. You’ve chosen the Dark Side and allowed it to feed your anger and desire for power.” Brother’s powers in the Force are not intrinsically evil despite being the opposite from Daughter's.
Echoes of that conflict ripple out throughout the whole galaxy in how events have transpired.
The Jedi originally balanced both Light AND Dark, which we see in the designs of the first Jedi Temple where Luke is:
By the time of the Prophesy in Episode I, the Jedi are already dogmatic. Removing children from their homeworlds, and rejecting attachment and other things that are inherent connections to the Dark, focusing solely on the Light. By the same token, the Sith are then entirely consumed with selfish power. Exactly HOW that first imbalance came about isn’t clear, but if Mortis gives any hints, the situation itself gave rise to the prophesy about the Chosen One. Additionally, if the Sith separated themselves from the Jedi, it stands to reason that it's both vanity of wanting their own thing, and rejection of one side for another that made the Sith splinter off. Either way, the two sides in opposition of one another was the result.
The Jedi’s interest in Anakin as the chosen one is because he’s the one who’s foretold to destroy the Sith. That’s the Jedi looking at the prophesy as a weapon to destroy the Sith, without addressing how their actions of rejecting half of the Force have caused/perpetuated imbalance in the Force that contribute to the way the Light and Dark manifest against one another. The Sister is responsible for unlocking the weapon that kills her. Additionally, the ways of the Jedi from the Prequel Era that Luke learned from are shown to be intrinsically interlinked to the rise of the Dark Side against them when he reacts to DESTROY the Darkness in Ben, thus causing the Dark Side to manifest again as Kylo Ren – pitting the Dark and Light against one another, rather than maintaining balance between them.
Anakin succeeds through self-sacrifice, like Father did with Brother. However, Anakin existed as both a Jedi and a Sith in the forms where they were only able to be against one another. Never able to take his place as someone who controlled both.
The sequel trilogy is about that cycle and whether it can be broken or if it’s repeating.
Anakin, Obi-Wan, & Ahsoka’s presence there triggers the series of events that bring about the most literal portrayal of the prophesy of the Chosen One around Anakin, which is all directly from George Lucas exploring larger concepts of the Force. It’s Anakin’s trial that shows that managing the balance between the Dark & Light is necessary. It shows that the answer isn’t rejection of one in favor of saving the other, but knowingly exercising CONTROL OVER BOTH.
Brother and Daughter are shown as opposites but also VERY alike – to be equally as capable for being benevolent and as violent as the other, depending on if the violence or benevolence stems from a selfish or selfless motivator. It’s the Daughter choosing to reveal the weapon sealed in the Altar that tips the conflict past the point of no return and actually brings the Light and Dark against one another directly. Her actions ultimately result in Brother killing her with the very weapon she unlocked when attempting to free himself from Father’s control – filling Brother with even MORE rage and pain. His desire to escape and bring peace and control through power escalates, growing unchecked until eventually the Father chooses to sacrifice himself to eliminate Brother, in order to restore balance.
Also, a VERY important note for the first clip: Father tells Brother, “You’ve done what is forbidden. You’ve chosen the Dark Side and allowed it to feed your anger and desire for power.” Brother’s powers in the Force are not intrinsically evil despite being the opposite from Daughter's.
Echoes of that conflict ripple out throughout the whole galaxy in how events have transpired.
The Jedi originally balanced both Light AND Dark, which we see in the designs of the first Jedi Temple where Luke is:
By the time of the Prophesy in Episode I, the Jedi are already dogmatic. Removing children from their homeworlds, and rejecting attachment and other things that are inherent connections to the Dark, focusing solely on the Light. By the same token, the Sith are then entirely consumed with selfish power. Exactly HOW that first imbalance came about isn’t clear, but if Mortis gives any hints, the situation itself gave rise to the prophesy about the Chosen One. Additionally, if the Sith separated themselves from the Jedi, it stands to reason that it's both vanity of wanting their own thing, and rejection of one side for another that made the Sith splinter off. Either way, the two sides in opposition of one another was the result.
The Jedi’s interest in Anakin as the chosen one is because he’s the one who’s foretold to destroy the Sith. That’s the Jedi looking at the prophesy as a weapon to destroy the Sith, without addressing how their actions of rejecting half of the Force have caused/perpetuated imbalance in the Force that contribute to the way the Light and Dark manifest against one another. The Sister is responsible for unlocking the weapon that kills her. Additionally, the ways of the Jedi from the Prequel Era that Luke learned from are shown to be intrinsically interlinked to the rise of the Dark Side against them when he reacts to DESTROY the Darkness in Ben, thus causing the Dark Side to manifest again as Kylo Ren – pitting the Dark and Light against one another, rather than maintaining balance between them.
Anakin succeeds through self-sacrifice, like Father did with Brother. However, Anakin existed as both a Jedi and a Sith in the forms where they were only able to be against one another. Never able to take his place as someone who controlled both.
The sequel trilogy is about that cycle and whether it can be broken or if it’s repeating.
There’s also an even bigger picture of how the galaxy at large views the Jedi over the course of events during Episode II & III. That most notably involves the Jedi going from being the flawed guardians of the Light and keepers of the peace, to becoming active tools of war and murder themselves. That’s heavily covered during the Clone Wars series, and is literally the note that Season 5 (the original series finale) ended on:
That speech about the Jedi by Barriss at the trial is why one of the Temple Guards who escorted Ahsoka out of the temple, who also helped Anakin arrest Barriss and bring her in, later turns against and murders the other temple guards during Order 66. That allows Anakin to move in on the temple unchecked – slaughtering the remaining Jedi, including the younglings. Later, that temple guard becomes the Grand Inquisitor who continued to hunt down the remaining Jedi for Vader/Palpatine by using his extremely detailed knowledge of the Jedi, in order to best them and their students.
Kanan’s Force vision where the Grand Inquisitor’s origin is revealed even directly covers him confronting that rigidly dogmatic attitude towards the Dark Side of the Force – literally forcing him to pick up a red lightsaber to defend himself as his trial to become a Jedi Knight.
That’s even before looking at the continuation of the Mortis Arc into Rebels through Ahsoka, where Ahsoka is literally the embodiment of the rejection of the dogmatic Jedi way and embracing the Light Side of the Force (literally embodying the path of redemption that the Jedi need to take). Whereas Ezra is guided to accept and not to reject the Dark Side of the Force.
Ahsoka is literally killed by Son, and brought back to life by the final act of Daughter. Symbolically looking at the one thing that the Light leaves behind when the Jedi are purged.
The result of her great Jedi trial ends with her leaving the order, and rejecting the title of Jedi completely.
(EDIT: APPARENTLY EMBEDS MAX OUT AT TEN, SO THE REST OF THESE ARE JUST LINKS)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOj6R4Yjkqk
That connection from Daughter follows her in the form of the Convor Morai sitting in the space outside of time, that eventually saves her
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OLNHU9xBCM
On the other end of that, there’s Ezra who frequently interacts with the Dark Side in non-destructive ways, eventually being the antithesis of Anakin’s journey by using the same powers that he gained from interacting with the Dark Side to save his homeworld.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E82eT45UBjo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av7kJUQ0oJo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0NcZUjUW5M
That’s not even getting to the fact that the Bendu is an open force of Balanced Force who also gives the prophesy for Thrawn’s defeat (amongst many other lessons):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIfp2To9Cvg
That all comes back around in Luke’s lesson about the Force itself being about the balance, and the idea that the Light won’t die even without the Jedi (and by extension, the Dark won’t die even when the Sith have been eliminated).
https://youtu.be/EwNtFdEhHd0?t=56
The Jedi can’t be about embracing the Light and eschewing the Dark, because doing that generates conflict between both sides of the Force that NEED to exist. The Jedi need to be about embracing BOTH. The viewpoints of each side of the Force need to be about seeing the manifestations of both sides of the Force not as inherently good or evil. The sides aren’t opposed to one another, but they’re intrinsically interconnected sides of EVERYTHING: Life leads to Death, and Death leads to new Life. Day leading to Night and back again. The Jedi can be BOTH selfless, and well as selfish. There’s no inherent need to rigidly adhere to codes of detachment like the Jedi did in Episode I.
Ben’s attachments to his parents are what’s pushing him towards being GOOD. Ben wants to let the past die, and eschew all attachments to the things he once cared for, and that’s shown as being something to REJECT – despite having been a core principle of the Jedi. Rey embracing her anger allowed her to learn the correct lesson from Luke’s failures, while abandoning what looks like her place of belonging, in order to go and save her friends. The Last Jedi plays with all SORTS of ways to show how the Jedi’s teachings were fundamentally wrong, as well as how those views on the two aspects of the Force were even what generated the conflict between them to begin with.
THAT’S why the Jedi needed a redemption arc, and also how they’re been actively building up to one over the last ten years, ever since George decided to start Clone Wars and dig deeper into the bigger themes that the films weren’t able to cover.
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Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
Your premise, if I understand correctly, is that Anakin was failed by the Jedi rather than seduced by the Dark Side, and that their teachings somehow led him down that path, and as such that his turn was the result of Jedi teachings rather than his choice.
Your other premise is that the destruction of the Jedi was a part of a necessary rebalancing of the Force.
Please correct me if I misunderstood.
Seduction, for me, means being induced or enticed to do something bad or unwise in the hope of a good or beneficial outcome.
That seems like an accurate description of Anakin's fall to me. He wanted the power to save Padme, and couldn't do it using the lightside. So he decided to work for Palpatine in order to gain the knowledge to save her. How do the failings of Jedi teachings come into this?
We're talking about the necessity of the destruction of the Jedi in order to rebalance the Force.
Assuming the above, I feel like the nature of the destruction of the Jedi is relevant. They were not struck down by the Force. They were not struck down by their lack of attachments. They were the victims of an orchestrated plot aimed at their destruction. How did the failure of Jedi teachings lead to this outcome? How would attachments have saved them? They didn't save Anakin from his fall.
The Force is bigger than the Jedi, it doesn't belong to them. Why should the emotional state of a few thousand force users in the galaxy demand
their destruction. At worst, it harms themselves and is beneficial to everyone else. The legacy of the Jedi is a thousand years of peace. That is not something that should deserve or necessitate destruction.
What could they actually have done differently, and how would it have prevented their destruction? It's easy to say 'don't fight the war', but that doesn't really help. If they don't attack Geonosis or use clones (notably, intending to end the war, not win it) then Dooku just uses his new army to invoke a purge on the Jedi. Lacking an army backing them up, they either die or hide, abandoning the people of the Republic.
Qui Gonn is the one that keeps pushing Anakin as the Chosen One. He goes to great lengths to ensure that Anakin is trained in the Jedi way (why does he do that, if as a follower of the Living Force, he believes the Jedi way is fatally flawed?) The Jedi Council doesn't do anything like that. He's the one that is responsible for taking Anakin from his home and training him in the Jedi way, which he does because of the Prophecy. That's not the will of the Jedi or their teachings.
Any way you put this together, the Jedi are the victims here. They are the victims of an orchestrated attempt at genocide, and if your interpretation are true, they're also the victims of the Force eradicating them because of their teachings
This is really strange, I've never seen anything like it before, where a large part of the fandom embraces the idea that the victims of genocide are at fault for their own destruction.
Your other premise is that the destruction of the Jedi was a part of a necessary rebalancing of the Force.
Please correct me if I misunderstood.
Seduction, for me, means being induced or enticed to do something bad or unwise in the hope of a good or beneficial outcome.
That seems like an accurate description of Anakin's fall to me. He wanted the power to save Padme, and couldn't do it using the lightside. So he decided to work for Palpatine in order to gain the knowledge to save her. How do the failings of Jedi teachings come into this?
We're talking about the necessity of the destruction of the Jedi in order to rebalance the Force.
Assuming the above, I feel like the nature of the destruction of the Jedi is relevant. They were not struck down by the Force. They were not struck down by their lack of attachments. They were the victims of an orchestrated plot aimed at their destruction. How did the failure of Jedi teachings lead to this outcome? How would attachments have saved them? They didn't save Anakin from his fall.
The Force is bigger than the Jedi, it doesn't belong to them. Why should the emotional state of a few thousand force users in the galaxy demand
their destruction. At worst, it harms themselves and is beneficial to everyone else. The legacy of the Jedi is a thousand years of peace. That is not something that should deserve or necessitate destruction.
What could they actually have done differently, and how would it have prevented their destruction? It's easy to say 'don't fight the war', but that doesn't really help. If they don't attack Geonosis or use clones (notably, intending to end the war, not win it) then Dooku just uses his new army to invoke a purge on the Jedi. Lacking an army backing them up, they either die or hide, abandoning the people of the Republic.
Qui Gonn is the one that keeps pushing Anakin as the Chosen One. He goes to great lengths to ensure that Anakin is trained in the Jedi way (why does he do that, if as a follower of the Living Force, he believes the Jedi way is fatally flawed?) The Jedi Council doesn't do anything like that. He's the one that is responsible for taking Anakin from his home and training him in the Jedi way, which he does because of the Prophecy. That's not the will of the Jedi or their teachings.
Any way you put this together, the Jedi are the victims here. They are the victims of an orchestrated attempt at genocide, and if your interpretation are true, they're also the victims of the Force eradicating them because of their teachings
This is really strange, I've never seen anything like it before, where a large part of the fandom embraces the idea that the victims of genocide are at fault for their own destruction.
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
This is coming from someone who's never gotten into anything Star Wars other then the movies and mostly has picked up things from outside the movies by pop culture osmosis... so, take it with a grain of salt.
It's not just Qui-Gon that wants to take Anakin off Tatooine. Anakin's mom, Shimi, wants him to go. She wants him to not be a slave, to be free, and if that means he has to leave her, that's okay. Both she and Anakin admit that they'll miss each other, but in light of the opportunity Anakin has, that's something worth going though. (And better for them to miss each other because one of them got out of slavery then because they were sold to different people...)
So far so good.
The problem starts when we finally see the Jedi Council and Anakin interact. That scene is critical in the formation of the relationship Anakin will have with the Council. And I find it very worrying. There's two major things we see there. The first is that Anakin, for all he is a little kid, is concidered to be "too old" to be trained. Which begs the question of how young someone has to be to start training as Jedi. Anakin going to be trained as a Jedi feels right because the one adult who has always been in his life, his mom, was ultimately okay with it... and so was Anakin. Start getting younger then that and age of consent stuff starts being a big issue. Latter movies show that the kids who join the temple are really young, so they probably don't get any say in it at all. So best-case scenario, their parents are the ones who gave them to the temple, worst-case scenario... yeah, that could paint the Jedi Order in a really, really bad light...
The second worrying thing is how the Council reacts to Anakins totally normal feelings of missing his mom. Like, no duh, he misses her. Anyone would. If Anakin didn't, I'd think something would be wrong with him! And the Council all but tells him he's wrong to be felling that. That it leads to danger because those feelings of attachmant can (not will) lead to the Dark Side, which is a really bad place to be. This is when I start face-palming at the entire Jedi Order and began to wonder exactly how long they've been out of touch with how normal, ordinary people process emotions. It also starts to go some way in explaining why they want their students to be so young. You can't get people think that emotions like missing people when they're gone are problematic without starting when they're really little. Like... all the Council had to do is tell Anakin that it's normal he's feeling that way at that moment and that he doesn't have to bottle those feelings up and it probably would have gone a long way to helping Anakin's emotional stability. They can save the "no-attachments" lesson for later when the situation isn't so emotionally charged.
Long story short... the council comes off as not knowing what really people think and act like, right off the bat. In fact, they come off as holding that in contempt. Given that, it seems something very wrong happened a long time ago in the Order for them to be so out of touch. And no one seems to be willing to tell them something's wrong so they can fix it. Or if they have, the Jedi come across as arrogant enough that they might have dismissed it.
Anakin's relationship with the Jedi continues to be turbulent in Attack of the Clones. Probably the biggest indication of that is how he feels he has to hide is marriage with Padme from them. He doesn't trust anyone with it. Not Obi-Wan, the person he's known the longest and who is almost a brother to him. Certainly not the council who though him missing his mom when he was a kid was a bad thing. Tell them he got married (one of the biggest attachments anyone can have)!? Yeah right. In fact, you could probably make a good argument that he got married in spite of them. He lost his mom because the Jedi wanted him to do his duty and not follow his attachment. And then gave himself another one. I can't see how he wouldn't know about the Jedi philosophy on attachment by now, so yeah... I think he started chafing at the Jedi's authority long before Revenge of the Sith.
The other thing that rubs me the wrong way in Attack of the Clones is a really small scene. It's the scene in the Jedi Libraries where Obi-Wan is trying to find Kamino. The reaction to him not being able to find it? "If it's not in the Jedi libaries, then it must not exist." Like... that just feels so typical of the Jedi's views that they know everything. And they don't...
The big thing for me, is that Anakin hasn't had any significant on-screen interactions with Palpitine up until now. And by the end of Clones, it's obvious he's not happy with the Jedi. They think he's wrong to miss people. They failed his mom. They don't understand why people matter to him. They might fear how powerful he is. They certainly aren't going to be happy that he's getting married to the woman that he loves.
The thing is, I don't know if the Jedi would be emotionally capable of understanding Anakin. He was raised in such a different envornment then they were and instead of trying to learn where he's coming from (grew up outside of the temple, remembers his mom, etc.), they basically tell him that something is wrong with him because his emotions are normal. And then they try to make him be like them.
Yeah... that's going to go over so well long-term...
Now as far as Palpatine goes... I'm not going to say he didn't draw Anakin to the Dark Side. I have a hard time seeing Anakin going full Sith Lord without his influence. I can see Anakin eventually rejecting the Jedi Order and leaving it without him though. He was well on the road to that by the time Clones ends. It's just, Anakin is a decent enough guy who does want to help people. And the Clone Wars were a good vehicle for that. It's just that he's the kind of guy who does fine on a battlefield and then has problems with the top brass. Once the Clone Wars are over... well, it's politics again and more interactions with the Council. And Anakin doesn't have the best relationship with them... I really can't see that situation going well. Just, not as bad as it did in canon.
I am not saying that there's plenty of people in the Jedi Order who didn't deserve to die. I don't even think anyone in the Jedi Order deserved to die actually. I do think the Jedi Order was in much need of a wake-up call about how out of touch they had become with how normal people behave, think, feel, etc. And I do think Anakin could still have been the one to give them that.
Long story short, I think Palpatine had a lot to do with how bloody the final Anakin vs. Jedi Order confrontation went down. But I think an Anakin vs. Jedi Order confrontation was always going to happen.
So far so good.
The problem starts when we finally see the Jedi Council and Anakin interact. That scene is critical in the formation of the relationship Anakin will have with the Council. And I find it very worrying. There's two major things we see there. The first is that Anakin, for all he is a little kid, is concidered to be "too old" to be trained. Which begs the question of how young someone has to be to start training as Jedi. Anakin going to be trained as a Jedi feels right because the one adult who has always been in his life, his mom, was ultimately okay with it... and so was Anakin. Start getting younger then that and age of consent stuff starts being a big issue. Latter movies show that the kids who join the temple are really young, so they probably don't get any say in it at all. So best-case scenario, their parents are the ones who gave them to the temple, worst-case scenario... yeah, that could paint the Jedi Order in a really, really bad light...
The second worrying thing is how the Council reacts to Anakins totally normal feelings of missing his mom. Like, no duh, he misses her. Anyone would. If Anakin didn't, I'd think something would be wrong with him! And the Council all but tells him he's wrong to be felling that. That it leads to danger because those feelings of attachmant can (not will) lead to the Dark Side, which is a really bad place to be. This is when I start face-palming at the entire Jedi Order and began to wonder exactly how long they've been out of touch with how normal, ordinary people process emotions. It also starts to go some way in explaining why they want their students to be so young. You can't get people think that emotions like missing people when they're gone are problematic without starting when they're really little. Like... all the Council had to do is tell Anakin that it's normal he's feeling that way at that moment and that he doesn't have to bottle those feelings up and it probably would have gone a long way to helping Anakin's emotional stability. They can save the "no-attachments" lesson for later when the situation isn't so emotionally charged.
Long story short... the council comes off as not knowing what really people think and act like, right off the bat. In fact, they come off as holding that in contempt. Given that, it seems something very wrong happened a long time ago in the Order for them to be so out of touch. And no one seems to be willing to tell them something's wrong so they can fix it. Or if they have, the Jedi come across as arrogant enough that they might have dismissed it.
Anakin's relationship with the Jedi continues to be turbulent in Attack of the Clones. Probably the biggest indication of that is how he feels he has to hide is marriage with Padme from them. He doesn't trust anyone with it. Not Obi-Wan, the person he's known the longest and who is almost a brother to him. Certainly not the council who though him missing his mom when he was a kid was a bad thing. Tell them he got married (one of the biggest attachments anyone can have)!? Yeah right. In fact, you could probably make a good argument that he got married in spite of them. He lost his mom because the Jedi wanted him to do his duty and not follow his attachment. And then gave himself another one. I can't see how he wouldn't know about the Jedi philosophy on attachment by now, so yeah... I think he started chafing at the Jedi's authority long before Revenge of the Sith.
The other thing that rubs me the wrong way in Attack of the Clones is a really small scene. It's the scene in the Jedi Libraries where Obi-Wan is trying to find Kamino. The reaction to him not being able to find it? "If it's not in the Jedi libaries, then it must not exist." Like... that just feels so typical of the Jedi's views that they know everything. And they don't...
The big thing for me, is that Anakin hasn't had any significant on-screen interactions with Palpitine up until now. And by the end of Clones, it's obvious he's not happy with the Jedi. They think he's wrong to miss people. They failed his mom. They don't understand why people matter to him. They might fear how powerful he is. They certainly aren't going to be happy that he's getting married to the woman that he loves.
The thing is, I don't know if the Jedi would be emotionally capable of understanding Anakin. He was raised in such a different envornment then they were and instead of trying to learn where he's coming from (grew up outside of the temple, remembers his mom, etc.), they basically tell him that something is wrong with him because his emotions are normal. And then they try to make him be like them.
Yeah... that's going to go over so well long-term...
Now as far as Palpatine goes... I'm not going to say he didn't draw Anakin to the Dark Side. I have a hard time seeing Anakin going full Sith Lord without his influence. I can see Anakin eventually rejecting the Jedi Order and leaving it without him though. He was well on the road to that by the time Clones ends. It's just, Anakin is a decent enough guy who does want to help people. And the Clone Wars were a good vehicle for that. It's just that he's the kind of guy who does fine on a battlefield and then has problems with the top brass. Once the Clone Wars are over... well, it's politics again and more interactions with the Council. And Anakin doesn't have the best relationship with them... I really can't see that situation going well. Just, not as bad as it did in canon.
I am not saying that there's plenty of people in the Jedi Order who didn't deserve to die. I don't even think anyone in the Jedi Order deserved to die actually. I do think the Jedi Order was in much need of a wake-up call about how out of touch they had become with how normal people behave, think, feel, etc. And I do think Anakin could still have been the one to give them that.
Long story short, I think Palpatine had a lot to do with how bloody the final Anakin vs. Jedi Order confrontation went down. But I think an Anakin vs. Jedi Order confrontation was always going to happen.