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Star Wars: Episode 7, 8... and BEYOND!

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Since Tres covered the other post very succinctly, I'll just respond to Minato's:

The Jedi ways cause the Dark to return, yeah, because the Dark Side continues to exist and the Sith were removed, those Sith were trying or succeeding to subjugate the galaxy. In absence of the Jedi ways, users of the Dark Side would've dominated the galaxy completely.

And how does Ben show that the ideals and dogma of the Sith aren't limited to evil? Even if he's not evil (I'm not convinced of this BTW) He's not a Sith. The Sith as per the prophecy were destroyed, his actions don't inform them.
Yes, in the absence of the Jedi ways, the Sith would have taken over and dominated the galaxy completely. However, in the absence of the Sith, the Jedi did the same thing for all intents and purposes. Their role was a selfless one, rather than the selfish one, but you’re still looking at scenarios where there is one sect of Force Users devoted to a single aspect of the Force in a position of power over the rest of the Galaxy, and doing so kept the Force out of balance.

Additionally Ben doesn’t show the ideals and dogma of the Sith were positive. You’ve got that a little bit backwards. Ben shows the views of the Jedi can be evil. He’s VERY much embracing the “let go of anything you fear to lose” when he’s going to let the Resistance be destroyed. It’s the pain and loss of killing his father that’s breaking his connection to the Dark Side, rather than strengthening it. It's his familial connections and the dangers they're in that makes him hesitate when attacking the cruiser with his mother on board.

It’s Rey who shows that the paths that only the Sith focused on can be used for things other than evil. She experiences DEEP loss and absolute seething hatred towards Ben. She dives right in to the Dark Side cave without hesitation, and when she goes there physically the vision leaves her alone – something that causes her MASSIVE pain, but pain she embraces. All her connections bring her pain, but those, along with the reality of her parents abandoning her is something that she holds on to, rather than something that she lets go of like she would have been taught under the Jedi Order.

Holding on to pain would normally have been a path to the Dark Side.
In this case, letting go of that pain from attachments and overthrowing that's the path that the Dark Side is taking.


They accept Anakin, despite his committing genocide out of anger, hate and revenge, they just continued to instruct in a fashion they feel would prevent him from doing those kinds of things again.
But HOW they instruct him is important. They DON’T teach him how to control his emotions and use that power in the Force for good. They teach him how to detach so that he doesn’t experience the emotions that lead to that. That’s a VERY significant difference in the specifics, because it’s that viewpoint that ultimately pushes Anakin to the Dark Side. The Jedi would tell him to let go of Padmé and not to mourn her death, whereas the Sith would tell him to seek the power to save her in the Dark Side. Again, it’s the point that the Dark Side is inherently selfishly motivated, but not evil. Plagueis’ ability to keep loved ones from dying and creating life are INCREDIBLY selfish, but they’re absolutely not evil powers.


Because using great power in anger or fear or hate or to selfishly achieve ones own ends alone is an inheritely bad idea and it's not a model by which justice and peace is achieved.

There's a difference between inheritely evil and inheritely not safe to be use by people.
Like I just mentioned with Plagueis: Being selfish isn’t inherently evil at all. Being completely selfish is, and that’s what the Sith are (again, anyone only embracing ONE side of the Force and rejecting the other is problematic on both sides). Balancing selfish and selfless urges are IMPORTANT. The Jedi codes became all about only embracing the selfless and rejecting anything selfish – and that kept throwing the Force out of balance.

Which Dark Side powers are inherently not safe to be used by people? As a preemptive counter-argument: Mind Tricks that the Jedi use is a power that’s inherently RIDDLED with potential dangers for abuse – but that doesn’t stop the Jedi from instructing people on how to use it safely. There’s nothing that the Dark Side offers that couldn’t be used safely, just like there aren’t any things that the Jedi have that couldn’t be abused.

The Light Side didn't create war to destroy the Dark Side. The Jedi entered a war to oppose Dooku's attack on the Republic. There are Force Sects out there that don't seek dominion of the galaxy or exclusively use the Light Side of the Force and the Jedi leaves them be. Until Palpatine involves them because Sith is definitely both all about tthe Dark Side and dominion of the galaxy including all other force sects. Episode I makes that clear, Maul being a force user they don't know is one thing, being a Sith Lord quite another.

All fighting forces and organisations in the galaxy were founded to protect this and that interest. And they all failed when matched against Palpatine's ambitions. The Republic was an objective failure in this regard as well. Does not mean it should not exist, nor that practitioners of the Light Side who guard it and attempt to achieve peace and justice should not exist.
You completely misunderstand the SCOPE of things here. The Jedi and the Sith have been at war with each other on and off for THOUSANDS of years. The dogmas of the Jedi and the Sith during that time have become diametrically opposed: EACH rigidly adhere to only utilizing ONE SIDE of the Force. The Jedi are supposed to be about teaching and maintaining balance, not about eliminating the Dark Side. When that’s what they’d both come to practice, each of them kept bringing each side of the Force against each other as the other waxed and waned in power. It was a cycle of never-ending war.

The conflict in Episode I was orchestrated by the Dark Lord of the Sith, but that’s a very small part of a conflict between the two of them that has been going on for literal MILLENNIA. That conflict keeps coming back again and again, by tipping things towards either the Light or the Dark. The idea of the balance is that that cyclical conflict DOESN’T return because both sides exist in harmony, rather than being turned against one another. That's why both the Jedi and the Sith were destroyed.


The Jedi didn't create war, they didn't force Palpatine and Snoke into being. And whether or not choosing not be a personal user of it creates conflict within the Force or not, use of the Dark Side (using the Force in anger or aggression or otherwise letting your emotions guide it's use) in inself is not perfect way to achieve either peace or justice. Justice certainly doesn't enter into it. If you thought your actions were just, you wouldn't need emotions to guide your actions to doing them.

Ezra loves his homeplanet, his homeplanet also happened to genuinely be in an unjust occuption by a foreign aggressor his entire life, good for him. But your loved ones aren't always a flawless compass towards the path to justice and peace and sooner or later letting the Dark Side influence your actions will put you at odds.
In a cosmic sense, the Jedi rejecting the Dark Side ABSOLUTELY DID force Palpatine and Snoke into being. They also DEFINITELY stoked the return of the conflict between Light and Dark that brought about that war. By keeping the practices of Force Users focused on only the Light for 1000 years, they were building up a catastrophic event when the balance inevitably tipped back. Like the Father says, "Too much dark OR light would be the undoing of life as you understand it." You can't claim that by keeping the Dark side of the Force actively suppressed for 1000 years that the Jedi weren't equally responsible for creating that event. It's just like claiming that Sidious creating the Empire and taking over the galaxy and slaughtering all the Light Side Force Users wasn't also setting up for the Light to return and destroy the Sith. Claiming those things don't cause one another isn't looking at the bigger picture of the Force and its relationship to conflict in the galaxy.

Anakin loved his home planet, too. Tattooine also happened to be ruled by the Hutts, where he and his mother was LITERALLY slaves. The Jedi didn't do a single fucking thing about it. Padmé's disgusted by it when she finds out that that sort of injustice is happening in a Republic where the Jedi have been in power, unopposed for 1000 years. Despite being a member of that noble order, the Jedi never used his connections to that planet in an attempt to bring justice to it. His mother died horribly. What the Jedi were doing wasn't a flawless compass towards the path to justice and peace either. That's evident in the VERY start of Episode I.

The Jedi selflessly enforce the justice as determined by the democracy of the senate, because that matches their ideals to achieving peace. The Sith selfishly enforce justice by taking control because they believe that they are the best equipped to lead the galaxy, because that matches their ideals to achieving peace. Both the systems of the Old Republic AND the Galactic Empire constantly fail people all over the galaxy. One gets mired in the inaction of bureaucracy and inaction and the other is overly totalitarian. Those systems need a balance, but those orders keep building just one or the other as each one falls.

The whole point on a personal level is that your actions AREN'T put at odds if you can learn to balance BOTH selfish and selfless motives. People naturally exist with both, and you can control both. Just because you want to trains as a force wielder doesn't mean that you have to devote yourself to EITHER being a completely detached monk OR a totally self-obsessed maniac – but that's what the Jedi & Sith are causing by clinging to one side and pushing away the other. They don't have to be in violent opposition towards one another if you accept that you can't ever completely destroy one side or the other. It will ALWAYS push back. That's why the Balance is the answer, and both the Jedi and Sith were incredibly problematic and needed to be removed to keep from just repeating the mistakes of the past.




X:neo:
 

Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
For that matter, even had the prophecy spoken of the Sith, the end of the Sith doesn't mean the end of the Dark Side. The Jedi Order was just plain oblivious.
Where did the Jedi ever say that the final destruction of the Dark Side is their goal or the goal of the Chosen One?

Yes, in the absence of the Jedi ways, the Sith would have taken over and dominated the galaxy completely. However, in the absence of the Sith, the Jedi did the same thing for all intents and purposes. Their role was a selfless one, rather than the selfish one, but you’re still looking at scenarios where there is one sect of Force Users devoted to a single aspect of the Force in a position of power over the rest of the Galaxy, and doing so kept the Force out of balance.
Like you said point out later in this post, the Hutt Empire exists despite a thousand years of the Jedi supposedly dominating the galaxy, the Senate goes about his ways despite what the Jedi want. It's not a matter of selfish vs selfless rule, Dark Side users conquer the galaxy time and again, the Jedi do not.

Additionally Ben doesn’t show the ideals and dogma of the Sith were positive. You’ve got that a little bit backwards. Ben shows the views of the Jedi can be evil. He’s VERY much embracing the “let go of anything you fear to lose” when he’s going to let the Resistance be destroyed. It’s the pain and loss of killing his father that’s breaking his connection to the Dark Side, rather than strengthening it. It's his familial connections and the dangers they're in that makes him hesitate when attacking the cruiser with his mother on board.


It’s Rey who shows that the paths that only the Sith focused on can be used for things other than evil. She experiences DEEP loss and absolute seething hatred towards Ben. She dives right in to the Dark Side cave without hesitation, and when she goes there physically the vision leaves her alone – something that causes her MASSIVE pain, but pain she embraces. All her connections bring her pain, but those, along with the reality of her parents abandoning her is something that she holds on to, rather than something that she lets go of like she would have been taught under the Jedi Order.

Holding on to pain would normally have been a path to the Dark Side.
In this case, letting go of that pain from attachments and overthrowing that's the path that the Dark Side is taking.
His attachment to his idea of his grandfather is obviously an attachment he seeks to keep. He lashes out at computer console because he thinks nothing of using the Force in anger or hate. He's going to conquer the galaxy because that's what he wants. Letting go of attachments are just one part of Jedi code. And ultimately Rey wouldn't kill Ben despite her hatred.

But HOW they instruct him is important. They DON’T teach him how to control his emotions and use that power in the Force for good. They teach him how to detach so that he doesn’t experience the emotions that lead to that. That’s a VERY significant difference in the specifics, because it’s that viewpoint that ultimately pushes Anakin to the Dark Side. The Jedi would tell him to let go of Padmé and not to mourn her death, whereas the Sith would tell him to seek the power to save her in the Dark Side. Again, it’s the point that the Dark Side is inherently selfishly motivated, but not evil. Plagueis’ ability to keep loved ones from dying and creating life are INCREDIBLY selfish, but they’re absolutely not evil powers.
Obi-Wan was Anakin's teacher and he did not teach him not to care about Padmé or Ahsoka or himself. Obi-Wan loves Anakin like a brother. He's not of the opinion that Jedi are unfeeling robots. He was trying to teach him to not let those attachments drive his actions and lead him to use the Force for selfish means. He failed. Despite openly loving Anakin and being attached to him and knowing about his marriage to Padme, Obi-Wan failed.

Like I just mentioned with Plagueis: Being selfish isn’t inherently evil at all. Being completely selfish is, and that’s what the Sith are (again, anyone only embracing ONE side of the Force and rejecting the other is problematic on both sides). Balancing selfish and selfless urges are IMPORTANT. The Jedi codes became all about only embracing the selfless and rejecting anything selfish – and that kept throwing the Force out of balance.

Which Dark Side powers are inherently not safe to be used by people? As a preemptive counter-argument: Mind Tricks that the Jedi use is a power that’s inherently RIDDLED with potential dangers for abuse – but that doesn’t stop the Jedi from instructing people on how to use it safely. There’s nothing that the Dark Side offers that couldn’t be used safely, just like there aren’t any things that the Jedi have that couldn’t be abused.
The Force itself probably still does not care but taking lives for your own ends is a form of evil to most living being as they treasure their lives. Denying the will of others for a means that only serves your own likewise, evil to the rest of society. Punishing people because your feelings tell you they deserve regardless of whether your rational thinking supports it is likewise evil. Letting your feelings drive you are a bad way to enforce justice.

You completely misunderstand the SCOPE of things here. The Jedi and the Sith have been at war with each other on and off for THOUSANDS of years. The dogmas of the Jedi and the Sith during that time have become diametrically opposed: EACH rigidly adhere to only utilizing ONE SIDE of the Force. The Jedi are supposed to be about teaching and maintaining balance, not about eliminating the Dark Side. When that’s what they’d both come to practice, each of them kept bringing each side of the Force against each other as the other waxed and waned in power. It was a cycle of never-ending war.

The conflict in Episode I was orchestrated by the Dark Lord of the Sith, but that’s a very small part of a conflict between the two of them that has been going on for literal MILLENNIA. That conflict keeps coming back again and again, by tipping things towards either the Light or the Dark. The idea of the balance is that that cyclical conflict DOESN’T return because both sides exist in harmony, rather than being turned against one another. That's why both the Jedi and the Sith were destroyed.
Eliminating Sith Lords and eliminating the Dark Side are two different things.

In a cosmic sense, the Jedi rejecting the Dark Side ABSOLUTELY DID force Palpatine and Snoke into being. They also DEFINITELY stoked the return of the conflict between Light and Dark that brought about that war. By keeping the practices of Force Users focused on only the Light for 1000 years, they were building up a catastrophic event when the balance inevitably tipped back. Like the Father says, "Too much dark OR light would be the undoing of life as you understand it." You can't claim that by keeping the Dark side of the Force actively suppressed for 1000 years that the Jedi weren't equally responsible for creating that event. It's just like claiming that Sidious creating the Empire and taking over the galaxy and slaughtering all the Light Side Force Users wasn't also setting up for the Light to return and destroy the Sith. Claiming those things don't cause one another isn't looking at the bigger picture of the Force and its relationship to conflict in the galaxy.
Yes, I would claim exactly that. Palpatine's actions didn't force Luke, Leia, Obi-Wan, Yoda or Han into being through some cosmic will. They exists just because they did. They would've been born and lived in the galaxy regardless of the success of his schemes. Palpatine being imperfect failed to eliminate all the Jedi, or all things that threaten his dominion over Vader. There was no resurgence of the light, there were less Light users after Palpatine's action but not as few as he liked, and those he missed raised a child that was powerful with the Force to stop him. Luke chose the Jedi because he valued them, not because the Light was stronger in that moment.

Likewise Palpatine was a person who was strong with strong with the Force who made a selfish choice. Was the Jedi Order perfect? No. Nor should they be. Nor should Rey be expected to be perfectly prepared to sense and deal with any threat that threatens the Force ever even if she does manage to use the Force in perfectly equally selfish and selfless ways. She'll still be a person that makes mistakes. Just like it should be forgiven of the Jedi that they were people that were capable of mistakes.

Anakin loved his home planet, too. Tattooine also happened to be ruled by the Hutts, where he and his mother was LITERALLY slaves. The Jedi didn't do a single fucking thing about it. Padmé's disgusted by it when she finds out that that sort of injustice is happening in a Republic where the Jedi have been in power, unopposed for 1000 years. Despite being a member of that noble order, the Jedi never used his connections to that planet in an attempt to bring justice to it. His mother died horribly. What the Jedi were doing wasn't a flawless compass towards the path to justice and peace either. That's evident in the VERY start of Episode I.

The Jedi selflessly enforce the justice as determined by the democracy of the senate, because that matches their ideals to achieving peace. The Sith selfishly enforce justice by taking control because they believe that they are the best equipped to lead the galaxy, because that matches their ideals to achieving peace. Both the systems of the Old Republic AND the Galactic Empire constantly fail people all over the galaxy. One gets mired in the inaction of bureaucracy and inaction and the other is overly totalitarian. Those systems need a balance, but those orders keep building just one or the other as each one falls.
Tatooine wasn't in the Republic And the Jedi don't assume it to be their place to make the Republic go to a war of conquest on the entire galaxy because they feel their rule is best.

The whole point on a personal level is that your actions AREN'T put at odds if you can learn to balance BOTH selfish and selfless motives. People naturally exist with both, and you can control both. Just because you want to trains as a force wielder doesn't mean that you have to devote yourself to EITHER being a completely detached monk OR a totally self-obsessed maniac – but that's what the Jedi & Sith are causing by clinging to one side and pushing away the other. They don't have to be in violent opposition towards one another if you accept that you can't ever completely destroy one side or the other. It will ALWAYS push back. That's why the Balance is the answer, and both the Jedi and Sith were incredibly problematic and needed to be removed to keep from just repeating the mistakes of the past.
You do not HAVE to. The Jedi turn away candidates that they feel would have difficulty letting go of attachment and fear and whatnot. THEY DO NOT KILL THEM. Anakin was using his force powers for podracing and other stuff and the Jedi would've been perfectly happy to let him continue. They didn't because he was the Chosen One and Obi-Wan wasn't giving them a choice. They knew it was because of feeling of loyalty towards Qui-Gon and let that go as well. The Jedi act to preserve peace and achieve justice, and see those who have FALLEN to the Dark Side as a threat to that (they are). They don't kill anyone that both have strong feelings and uses the Force ever. They just choose to refrain from teaching THEIR Jedi arts to those that can't use them in selfless ways.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
So, let’s reiterate to get back into the larger concepts for a bit, because I think that’ll be better for the direction of the discussion than hitting into minutia, because I'm curious where the disconnect about the Jedi being incredibly problematic comes from.



The scenario in which we find ourselves at the start of Episode I: The Phantom Menace has the Jedi Order at the absolute and unopposed height of their power with tens of thousands of Jedi all trained in the use of the Light side of the Force. As Obi-Wan would say later “The Jedi were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic for 1000 years.” The Jedi also believed (wrongly) that the Sith were extinct throughout that entire period.

One of the first things we learn is that at the height of their power and at the end of 1000 years of “Jedi peace” there are several massively prominent and galactically well-known groups who openly practice slavery and oppression outside the Old Republic who are going unopposed by anyone, even as injustices grow unchecked amidst the incapable democracy in the Old Republic. Additionally, the Jedi’s dogma is continually pushing the Force out of balance by only training individuals in the Light and rejecting everything from the Dark.

Why is neither of those things apparently the Jedi’s responsibility to correct?

The Force exists in ALL THINGS, so why don’t the Jedi help anyone outside of the Old Republic? Why can’t the Jedi nurture balance in the Force through their own teachings? What exactly WERE the Jedi doing for an ENTIRE MILLENNIUM that was so important if they weren’t ACTUALLY keeping peace, upholding justice, or fighting against the Sith? Why does anyone in the galaxy who’s being actively oppressed and wronged need that? – That's the whole point. They don’t need those versions of the Jedi. They need someone who will stand up and take action for them regardless of where these injustices take place. The Jedi Order won’t ever do that. They’re failing the galaxy and blinding themselves to where they’re needed when it doesn’t fit their code.


That’s when the Chosen One shows up.

But why then? What’s different about this point compared to the last 1000 years of the Jedi not doing anything for the galaxy? Well, who WAS taking action this whole time? Oh, THAT’S right – the Sith. Those people the Jedi didn’t think existed any more. Instead of waging war against the Jedi openly, they just exploited the Jedi’s complete lack of ability to ACTUALLY keep the peace – even inside the Old Republic itself. Darth Sidious literally managed to take control of the Separatists AND the Republic & play them all like puppets to do whatever the hell he wanted with them, until he could unite them ALL under the First Galactic Empire. ONE SITH managed to influence change in the limited section of the galaxy where the Jedi were supposedly active, on a scale that literal TENS OF THOUSANDS of Jedi couldn’t.

The Jedi were symbols who had wrapped themselves up so deeply in perpetuating the practice of a twisted dogma that kept the Force out of balance, that they even managed to render themselves completely ineffective at the three things they were supposed to be able to do: Keep peace, Uphold justice, & Oppose the Sith. Failed, failed, & failed. The Chosen One abandoned the Jedi & joined Sidious to help bring about the Jedi’s destruction during Revenge of the Sith (note: contextually, the Sith can't seek revenge without being wronged by the Jedi first, so that title establishes an important causative relationship between the two groups). Why would that happen? Why would he JOIN the Sith?

The prophesy is about the fact that the Jedi are supposed to be a legend, a symbol of justice to the oppressed, and a beacon of hope to those in need. But they’re also supposed to actually DO those things by using the power of the Force. Instead, the Jedi were split to only embrace Light and oppose the Sith – and the Sith embraced only the Dark to oppose the Jedi. That had created a situation for constant war for as long as the two groups existed. Then, after the Jedi were, “All but extinct” Luke came around as A New Hope. He rejected the Jedi teachings who told him he needed to destroy Vader, and managed to prove to his father that – despite all of the horrible things he’d done, he wasn’t LOST to the Dark Side forever. The Chosen One turned on and destroyed the Sith to save Luke – sacrificing himself and dying in the process, leaving the legacy of the Force to his son and allowing the Return of the Jedi.


Almost 30 years go by, and the Balance is maintained during that time.

While that balance was extant, it was also very tenuous. Luke & Snoke existed in the shadows of what came before, and there was also Ben who was in the middle – he was both Anakin’s Light & Vader’s Dark. Luke was strong enough with the Light to oppose Snoke, so that balance held JUST enough to keep their Light and Dark in check, but that's not enough to have both sides of the Force exist in harmony. That’s because Luke didn’t know how to CONTROL his fear about the Dark Side as a lingering source of evil, and Snoke always saw the Light as something he needed to snuff out once and for all. Luke had always lost control to the Dark Side in moments of fear – but he’d always recovered from them, rather than it dominating his destiny like it did with his father. However, with Ben, a single moment of fear was all it took to send Kylo Ren spiraling towards the Dark Side. Things tipped back out of balance, war was reignited in the galaxy, and things started to repeat the cycle of what had come before all over again.

Luke understood what that catalyst was: The teachings of the Jedi Order. Treating the Force like it was two things by having Dark and Light sides that exist in opposition to one another actively generates conflict and continually destroys peace. The Force can’t be wielded like it’s two different super powers, because it’s not two different things – IT’S ALL THE SAME FORCE. Having that split apart into two sects itself IS the issue. Luke understood that the Jedi Order needed to be destroyed as much as the Sith Empire did. The Jedi were supposed to use THE FORCE. Not some of it. Not only the selfless parts. Not only the selfish parts. The Force.

In helping to destroy the Sith and saving his father from them, Luke had never achieved control of the dark side in himself, only fear of it. He knew that the Light wouldn’t die without the Jedi, just like the Dark wouldn’t die without the Sith. So, he removed himself from the Force to allow the Jedi and their teachings to die out so that the Light of The Force Awakens elsewhere. He knew the Light wouldn't die without him, and that without those teachings of the Dark Side as being evil, there was a chance for Balance to return so long as he was The Last Jedi. That’s when Rey becomes Ben’s balance in the Force. She seeks out Luke, but he’s isolated himself away from all of the conflict. He's refused to train any more Jedi to stand against Ben & Snoke. He only taught Rey lessons of WHY he would never train more Jedi. However, in doing so he DID pass on his failures and those of the Jedi Order, which taught Rey what she needed to know. That enabled Luke to understand that the SYMBOL of the Jedi was important. Through him, it had become something that wasn’t just a legend of half-truths, but something to inspire others to be better. He knew that he couldn't save Ben's soul, and he doesn't even try What he DOES is that he manages to win a victory that establishes the Jedi as the symbol of what they were supposed to be but never were. It's that spark of legend that's inspiring kids in areas of the galaxy that are oppressed regardless of who's in power. The legacy of the Jedi is reaching the places it had abandoned before, but now that Snoke and Luke are both dead, and the balance isn't kept between two Masters of each side attempting to sway their student – it’s up to Rey & Ben to bring about balance within each other, to follow up on that legend Luke left behind.


But how?

By saving what they love, not destroying what they hate – You know, LITERALLY THE EXACT THING that neither the Jedi nor the Sith allowed Anakin to do with just one side of the Force, even though he was the most powerful Force wielder in the entire Galaxy. Neither the Light nor the Dark is capable of saving what you care about on its own – whether it comes to a single person or the future of the Galaxy. So, what does Rey want: she wants to find where she belongs. What does Ben want: to achieve his grandfather's goal, and not be destroyed or manipulated for his power. So... exactly what you'd need to form the Jedi as they were when they began since for Ben to accept Anakin's entire legacy and not just Vader's portion of it, he'll need to accept Rey since he can't just take the lightsaber from her by force. By embracing the entirety of the Force as one group, the Jedi could finally become what they were always meant to be: A symbol of hope, but one that would also actually uphold peace, justice, and the balance of the Force in the ENTIRE GALAXY. That’s literally the whole point of the Prophesy about the Chosen One bringing balance. It’s what the entire Skywalker Saga is about.







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Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
So, let’s reiterate to get back into the larger concepts for a bit, because I think that’ll be better for the direction of the discussion than hitting into minutia, because I'm curious where the disconnect about the Jedi being incredibly problematic comes from.



The scenario in which we find ourselves at the start of Episode I: The Phantom Menace has the Jedi Order at the absolute and unopposed height of their power with tens of thousands of Jedi all trained in the use of the Light side of the Force. As Obi-Wan would say later “The Jedi were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic for 1000 years.” The Jedi also believed (wrongly) that the Sith were extinct throughout that entire period.

One of the first things we learn is that at the height of their power and at the end of 1000 years of “Jedi peace” there are several massively prominent and galactically well-known groups who openly practice slavery and oppression outside the Old Republic who are going unopposed by anyone, even as injustices grow unchecked amidst the incapable democracy in the Old Republic. Additionally, the Jedi’s dogma is continually pushing the Force out of balance by only training individuals in the Light and rejecting everything from the Dark.

Why is neither of those things apparently the Jedi’s responsibility to correct?

The Force exists in ALL THINGS, so why don’t the Jedi help anyone outside of the Old Republic? Why can’t the Jedi nurture balance in the Force through their own teachings? What exactly WERE the Jedi doing for an ENTIRE MILLENNIUM that was so important if they weren’t ACTUALLY keeping peace, upholding justice, or fighting against the Sith? Why does anyone in the galaxy who’s being actively oppressed and wronged need that? – That's the whole point. They don’t need those versions of the Jedi. They need someone who will stand up and take action for them regardless of where these injustices take place. The Jedi Order won’t ever do that. They’re failing the galaxy and blinding themselves to where they’re needed when it doesn’t fit their code.
The Jedis are peacekeepers not soldiers. What you are calling is for the Jedi to subvert the democratic rule of the Republic (ineffective in Episode I though it maybe) and force it into wars where people will be forced to lay down for Jedi goals on foreign worlds like Tatioone. That might end the slave trade. It will also mean the loss of countless innocent lives. A more selfish Jedi Order would make that call perhaps, and it would do good in some places. But create many enemies for them and the Republic doing so. It's not a road to peace. The Jedi by the time of the prequels do seem too attached to Republic, I don't deny that. But they are able to acts as diplomats and intercede into the trade disputes thanks to those attachments. If they were just self-rightous interlopers in that conflict Palpatine could quite right declare them enemies of the Republic in short order. There are pros and cons to the arrangement between the Jedi and Republic like any other.


What’s different about this point compared to the last 1000 years of the Jedi not doing anything for the galaxy?
There is nothing that claim the Jedi Order spend thousands of year literally not dioing anything. The Galaxy is not some perfect utopia yet, no.

Well, who WAS taking action this whole time? Oh, THAT’S right – the Sith. Those people the Jedi didn’t think existed any more. Instead of waging war against the Jedi openly, they just exploited the Jedi’s complete lack of ability to ACTUALLY keep the peace – even inside the Old Republic itself. Darth Sidious literally managed to take control of the Separatists AND the Republic & play them all like puppets to do whatever the hell he wanted with them, until he could unite them ALL under the First Galactic Empire. ONE SITH managed to influence change in the limited section of the galaxy where the Jedi were supposedly active, on a scale that literal TENS OF THOUSANDS of Jedi couldn’t.
Yes, Sidious used the bureaucratic and democratic nature of the Republic against it, knowing the Jedi won't outright overthrow the Republic and install themselves as dictators as he would. The Jedi CAN do these things too, they don't because they let the people of galaxy forge their own destinies where possible.

The Jedi were symbols who had wrapped themselves up so deeply in perpetuating the practice of a twisted dogma that kept the Force out of balance, that they even managed to render themselves completely ineffective at the three things they were supposed to be able to do: Keep peace, Uphold justice, & Oppose the Sith. Failed, failed, & failed. The Chosen One abandoned the Jedi & joined Sidious to help bring about the Jedi’s destruction during Revenge of the Sith (note: contextually, the Sith can't seek revenge without being wronged by the Jedi first, so that title establishes an important causative relationship between the two groups). Why would that happen? Why would he JOIN the Sith?
The Sith once ruled the galaxy, the Jedi put a stop to that, this is what revenge is sought for. And Anakin was tricked. Palpatine never displayed he had the power to save Padme or his children nor any inclination to do even if he could.

The prophesy is about the fact that the Jedi are supposed to be a legend, a symbol of justice to the oppressed, and a beacon of hope to those in need. But they’re also supposed to actually DO those things by using the power of the Force. Instead, the Jedi were split to only embrace Light and oppose the Sith – and the Sith embraced only the Dark to oppose the Jedi.
There are ten thousand Jedi in the prequels and only very few of them are on Coruscant only minding their business, the rest are under going missions all over the galaxy, like we see Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan undertake at the very beginning. Like the many scraps Anakin and Obi-Wan had already undergone before any mention of Sith were made. Palpatine can just nuke Coruscant and take out Jedi that way, that wouldn't be near enough. He needs to start a war and position his men close to active Jedi through it as the Jedi keep themselves too busy to be eliminated in one fell swoop otherwise. And where is it writ that the Sith only resort to focusing on the Dark to oppose the Jedi?

Luke understood what that catalyst was: The teachings of the Jedi Order. Treating the Force like it was two things by having Dark and Light sides that exist in opposition to one another actively generates conflict and continually destroys peace. The Force can’t be wielded like it’s two different super powers, because it’s not two different things – IT’S ALL THE SAME FORCE. Having that split apart into two sects itself IS the issue. Luke understood that the Jedi Order needed to be destroyed as much as the Sith Empire did. The Jedi were supposed to use THE FORCE. Not some of it. Not only the selfless parts. Not only the selfish parts. The Force.
It's not the Jedi Order that call the not Dark Side "the Light". They call it the Force. It's people that seek to disagree with them that find need to put a name to it. The Jedi use the Force. Yet it's also true that Anakin went from smiling and embracing his jedi friends to killing children, killing those friends and only seeing enemies everywhere, this happened in hours, minutes, really. There exists a part of the Force that corrupts ones intentions and helps you down a dark path and the Jedi are aware and mindful of it. They ought to be. Even if, in the prequels they did not handle everything perfectly.

In helping to destroy the Sith and saving his father from them, Luke had never achieved control of the dark side in himself, only fear of it. He knew that the Light wouldn’t die without the Jedi, just like the Dark wouldn’t die without the Sith. So, he removed himself from the Force to allow the Jedi and their teachings to die out so that the Light of The Force Awakens elsewhere. He knew the Light wouldn't die without him, and that without those teachings of the Dark Side as being evil, there was a chance for Balance to return so long as he was The Last Jedi.
The Dark Side or Light Side will not die along with it's practitioners. The Force will exist regardless, I feel.

That’s when Rey becomes Ben’s balance in the Force. She seeks out Luke, but he’s isolated himself away from all of the conflict. He's refused to train any more Jedi to stand against Ben & Snoke. He only taught Rey lessons of WHY he would never train more Jedi. However, in doing so he DID pass on his failures and those of the Jedi Order, which taught Rey what she needed to know. That enabled Luke to understand that the SYMBOL of the Jedi was important. Through him, it had become something that wasn’t just a legend of half-truths, but something to inspire others to be better. He knew that he couldn't save Ben's soul, and he doesn't even try What he DOES is that he manages to win a victory that establishes the Jedi as the symbol of what they were supposed to be but never were. It's that spark of legend that's inspiring kids in areas of the galaxy that are oppressed regardless of who's in power. The legacy of the Jedi is reaching the places it had abandoned before, but now that Snoke and Luke are both dead, and the balance isn't kept between two Masters of each side attempting to sway their student – it’s up to Rey & Ben to bring about balance within each other, to follow up on that legend Luke left behind.


But how?

By saving what they love, not destroying what they hate – You know, LITERALLY THE EXACT THING that neither the Jedi nor the Sith allowed Anakin to do with just one side of the Force, even though he was the most powerful Force wielder in the entire Galaxy. Neither the Light nor the Dark is capable of saving what you care about on its own – whether it comes to a single person or the future of the Galaxy. So, what does Rey want: she wants to find where she belongs. What does Ben want: to achieve his grandfather's goal, and not be destroyed or manipulated for his power. So... exactly what you'd need to form the Jedi as they were when they began since for Ben to accept Anakin's entire legacy and not just Vader's portion of it, he'll need to accept Rey since he can't just take the lightsaber from her by force. By embracing the entirety of the Force as one group, the Jedi could finally become what they were always meant to be: A symbol of hope, but one that would also actually uphold peace, justice, and the balance of the Force in the ENTIRE GALAXY. That’s literally the whole point of the Prophesy about the Chosen One bringing balance. It’s what the entire Skywalker Saga is about.
We will not see a galaxy that free of any injustice in any corner of the galaxy at the end of this. Ben's conquest of the galaxy will be prevented but there will be places in the galaxy people will die injustly where Rey can't reach. Just like there were for the Jedi.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Where did the Jedi ever say that the final destruction of the Dark Side is their goal or the goal of the Chosen One?
My points are:

a) when they learned that the Sith still existed, they began ascribing meaning to the prophecy that "balance" called for the suppression/elimination of these Dark Side Force users, and

b) they never even considered the possibility that "balance" may also entail their own proliferation and influence being reduced

That's their myopia on display: they had only just learned that some Sith were still around, and they almost immediately concluded that the prophecy about balance being restored to the Force meant these Sith -- the first Dark Side users they were made aware of in a very long time -- would have to be destroyed in order for the Force to be in balance.

I still don’t know where the opposition to all this is coming from, being the underpinning that it is to the entire saga (and being that George Lucas himself conceived the destructive false dichotomy between the Light and Dark), but I can definitely assure you and Clem that this is where the sequel trilogy is headed. The novelization to "The Force Awakens" even begins with this poem from the Journal of the Whills:

First comes the day
Then comes the night.
After the darkness
Shines through the light.
The difference, they say,
Is only made right
By the resolving of gray
Through refined Jedi sight.


The Jedi will be returning, via Rey, to their proper state as Grey Force users.
 
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Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
My points are:

a) when they learned that the Sith still existed, they began ascribing meaning to the prophecy that "balance" called for the suppression/elimination of these Dark Side Force users, and

b) they never even considered the possibility that "balance" may also entail their own proliferation and influence being reduced

That's their myopia on display: they had only just learned that some Sith were still around, and they almost immediately concluded that the prophecy about balance being restored to the Force meant these Sith -- the first Dark Side users they were made aware of in a very long time -- would have to be destroyed in order for the Force to be in balance.

I still don’t know where the opposition to all this is coming from, being the underpinning that it is to the entire saga (and being that George Lucas himself conceived the destructive false dichotomy between the Light and Dark), but I can definitely assure you and Clem that this is where the sequel trilogy is headed. The novelization to "The Force Awakens" even begins with this poem from the Journal of the Whills:

First comes the day
Then comes the night.
After the darkness
Shines through the light.
The difference, they say,
Is only made right
By the resolving of gray
Through refined Jedi sight.


The Jedi will be returning, via Rey, to their proper state as Grey Force users.
The Chosen One does destroy the Sith, the Jedi live on, through Luke, Rey, possibly Ben. They weren't wrong about the what, only about the how.
 
AKA
The Engineer
The Jedis are peacekeepers not soldiers. What you are calling is for the Jedi to subvert the democratic rule of the Republic (ineffective in Episode I though it maybe) and force it into wars where people will be forced to lay down for Jedi goals on foreign worlds like Tatioone.
I would say that when the Jedi made a huge mistake when they agreed to be peacekeepers under the rule of the Republic. Whenever that was in SW history. The Jedi are not supposed to serve the Republic. They are supposed to keep the Force from being abused. In the long run, being under the Republic has curtailed their influence throughout the entire galaxy.
for Jedi goals on foreign worlds like Tatioone. That might end the slave trade. It will also mean the loss of countless innocent lives.
This isn't the greatest example. No matter how the slave trade on Tatioone will end, it will cost the lives of innocent people. Upending a society-wide practace (and economy) like that tends to do that. However, if the Jedi were to get involved on Tatioone, the odds of the anit-slavery people winning would be much higher. If the Jedi don't get involved, it's far more likely the pro-slavery people will win and then innocent lives would be lost for nothing instead of something.
A more selfish Jedi Order would make that call perhaps, and it would do good in some places. But create many enemies for them and the Republic doing so. It's not a road to peace.
Except peace has never been a goal of the Jedi (the original Balance!Jedi anyway). Balance should never be confused with peace. The TMP Jedi (Light!Jedi ?) seem to have done this. If the entire orriginal goal of the Jedi was balance, then that means they should be going after force users who are not balanced. While the end-goal would be peace, the meathods used to get there probably wouldn't be peaceful given what kinds of things the Force lends itself well too, especially the extreme sides of the Force. Most of those things seem to be all about combat. Or mind manipulation.
If they were just self-rightous interlopers in that conflict Palpatine could quite right declare them enemies of the Republic in short order.
Palpatine would declare them enemies of the Republic no matter what the Jedi did or what their relationship to the Republic was. He's a Sith. He wants them wiped out on principle.
There are pros and cons to the arrangement between the Jedi and Republic like any other.
Yeah, there are. The Light!Jedi remind me of a superhero team that decided they would accept government oversight and in the long run, that oversight led to the superhero team compromising on some of their core values. Or maybe they decided to compromise some of there core values first and then accepted the oversight... But hey, at least they get good press and the government backs them up!
 

Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
I would say that when the Jedi made a huge mistake when they agreed to be peacekeepers under the rule of the Republic. Whenever that was in SW history. The Jedi are not supposed to serve the Republic. They are supposed to keep the Force from being abused. In the long run, being under the Republic has curtailed their influence throughout the entire galaxy.
Yeah, the Republic makes up a big part of the populated galaxy. Having some authority within it helps. Not every way, but being lawless interlopers without any voice in the largest interstellar community has it's downsides as well. You think the other side of the coin would have worked out better with the advantage of hindsight, I agree. But it would have been imperfect either way.

This isn't the greatest example. No matter how the slave trade on Tatioone will end, it will cost the lives of innocent people. Upending a society-wide practace (and economy) like that tends to do that. However, if the Jedi were to get involved on Tatioone, the odds of the anti-slavery people winning would be much higher. If the Jedi don't get involved, it's far more likely the pro-slavery people will win and then innocent lives would be lost for nothing instead of something.

Except peace has never been a goal of the Jedi (the original Balance!Jedi anyway). Balance should never be confused with peace. The TMP Jedi (Light!Jedi ?) seem to have done this. If the entire orriginal goal of the Jedi was balance, then that means they should be going after force users who are not balanced. While the end-goal would be peace, the meathods used to get there probably wouldn't be peaceful given what kinds of things the Force lends itself well too, especially the extreme sides of the Force. Most of those things seem to be all about combat. Or mind manipulation.
I can't speak to the alleged original Balance!Jedi, I haven't read stories that feature them heavily yet but no, peace has been a goal of the Jedi for over a thousand generations as far we know. They needed Anakin because the road to balance from where they were was far from a peaceful one. But Anakin's example is not one to be followed by what comes after.

Palpatine would declare them enemies of the Republic no matter what the Jedi did or what their relationship to the Republic was. He's a Sith. He wants them wiped out on principle.
But he needed decades of subterfuge to get it done in the prequels, he needed to sell it to the democratic government that he was in the right. If the Jedi didn't care how their actions looked, if they selfishly interceded anywhere they wanted without any oversight, it would've been supereasy. And rightfully so. The Jedi don't know everything and should employ restraint with their great power. The prequel Jedi do know restraint, maybe they knew it too well but it would've never been perfect. Rey's way won't be perfect either and will have it's setbacks too, and that's okay.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
@Minato This is a more broad-stokes reply to your first post since there've been a couple follow-ups since then:

As the most prominent knowledgable acolytes of the Force, the Jedi Order don’t seem to understand that adhering to one side of the Force inherently generates war. If they don't understand that, that's a problem in and of itself. Their code is galvanizing conflict to rise against them, which fundamentally undermines that their role is that of peacekeepers. While there are pros and cons to the Jedi & the Republic being in charge of a large chunk of the Galaxy, there are also those pros and cons to the Sith's Galactic Empire being in charge. There’s no doubt that the Empire will go anywhere in the galaxy to rule it, and they use fear to quell opposition to discourage conflict, not to mention the Senate applauded the creation of the Empire.

We learn to understand that all the Clones and Stormtroopers are all real people with their own views. The Death Stars were all manned by people: they had technicians, officers, janitors, and all sorts of regular people with military security clearances. The Sith Empire blew up the peaceful dissonants on Alderaan, and the Rebellion blew up two battle stations of the Galactic Imperial Army. Depending on your PR spin, both of those could be called acts of terrorism. Each side is willing to accept necessity of a massive loss of enemy life to bring about the change they’re interested in. Yes – the Empire it was absolutely evil and terrible, but the Old Republic was a complete disaster of injustice and inaction that didn’t serve its citizens, which is why that democracy died with thunderous applause. Anything that’s only supported by one side of the Force doesn’t work, because the other side pushes against it until the system finally fails under its own incompetence, or gets massively upended. Both result in sparking conflict that costs countless innocent lives of galactic citizens every time.

The biggest thing is that the Jedi are able to get defeated by the very politics and bureaucracy of the place that they’ve intentionally contained themselves within – the legacy of the Jedi is that of failure. They installed themselves there to be able to cling ONLY to the Selfless paths of Force use – which they were never meant to do. Thank you for mentioning that the Jedi call it, “the Force” and “the Dark side” because that’s important to that point. It’s referred to on Mortis as the Light and the Dark, as well as doing what is Selfless and what is Selfish, but only as a WHOLE is it ever referred to as “The Force.” This is an even MORE important distinction, because for 1000 years, the Jedi have taught that the Light IS the Force, and the Dark Side is something sinister, dangerous, and unnatural. If that dogma could've been overturned, it would have been. Instead, it became so entrenched that it was impossible to uproot. That's why the Chosen One only appears when the Sith have the ability to wipe out the Jedi.

This is where comparing the role of the Prime Jedi as maintaining the Balance, and then looking at what the Jedi became by twisting those ideals into something else that @The Twilight Mexican covered brilliantly when looking at the differences between the original Codes and their interpretations by the Jedi Order completely changing their meaning. Additionally, the Jedi Order only kept their name after the schism because the Sith are the ones who took up a different one. They've been usurping the title of being Jedi while practicing something completely different to what the Jedi always were. They've been doing it so prominently that referring to the ACTUAL Jedi have to be called the Prime Jedi to differentiate them. They quite literally changed what the galaxy believed that Jedi were, and a huge amount of the galaxy turned against them in support of the Empire.

There’s no reason the Jedi EVER needed to only exist or act in the Old Republic. Saying that, “they let people of the galaxy forge their own destinies” is a very PR-poetic way of saying “they actively let people be enslaved because they only cared about the destinies of people under their own democracy.” That’s one of the most key themes in Episodes I & II and the entire importance of Anakin’s background as a freed slave from outside of the Old Republic. What the Jedi had become needed to be completely removed before the Galaxy could heal as much as the Sith needed to be destroyed. If you think of the Galaxy as a living thing, rule under solely Jedi Order or the Sith are like having tumors. They each lack specific types of healthy cellular function that should be present. One’s massive and benign, and the other’s tiny and malignant. They’re both bad to have, and they should both be completely removed to prevent them from regrowing, and allow something healthy to take their place.



Let’s talk about cheating death with the Force, because it happens in several different ways.

The Dark side gives power to cheat death and unnaturally remain alive because they have a selfish attachment to mortal life. The Nightsisters used the Dark Side to create and strengthen physical matter, and also to assume ghost-like incorporeal forms – but those were all just forms of life, as they could still be killed. The Light side are the only one who come back as Force Ghosts, because it’s associated with their selfless nature of allowing themselves to return to the Force and not being attached to their crude physical forms allowing them to exist beyond death. The Sith could create phantoms like Darth Bane did, but Yoda dismisses it as a mere illusion and not a living thing. Insofar as we can tell, the potential for utilizing the Dark Side of the Force to prevent death is definitely an established capability as much as using the Light Side to move beyond mortal life after death. There’s no reason to assume Sidious was lying about Plagueis' accomplishments, but there IS still more to it.

There’re two Force powers from Clone Wars, and one from The Last Jedi that provide some more context for Palpatine’s specific claim about cheating death. The Daughter uses the last of her own Life Force to bring Ahsoka back from the dead through a selfless act, so we know that giving life force to someone else in exchange for your own is possible. Additionally, Sidious’ pupil Maul used the Dark Side to keep himself unnaturally alive for YEARS after being cut in half, by clinging to his hatred, his desire for revenge, and focusing constantly on the Sith mantra – but it drove him utterly insane until Talzin helped to restore him. Snoke is shown to’ve been capable of bridging Rey & Ben’s minds across the galaxy because of their pre-existing connection to one another, which shows that the Dark Side being able to trigger links between individuals in the Force. So, let’s put all of that together:

Anakin & Padmé were very closely connected in the Force, and he had visions of her dying in childbirth from the strength of that connection. Palpatine knew all about that connection, and he also knew each of them individually quite well. Something that’s not answered is: How would Sidious have had ANY idea what Padmé’s fate was a galaxy away when Anakin didn’t? Why would he have been staying aware of it at all?

It’s important to pay attention to specific the words Sidious uses when speaking of his master Plagueis, “He was able to keep the ones he cared about from dying.” This is a power that Sidious says he can teach Vader, but isn’t something Vader himself knows in Episode III. Sidious would have been the only Sith with that power – and he only cared about keeping Vader alive and under his control. On top of that, Padmé was also a danger to him because she was one of the few openly opposed his rule as Emperor, and also rejected Anakin’s path on the Dark Side. The intercutting between Padmé’s medically unexplained death (droids can’t sense the Force) and Vader rising from his surgery pretty heavily implies that her lifeforce was used to keep Vader alive. “It seems that in your anger, you killed her.” Sidious crafts his manipulations VERY carefully. It’s most likely that Sidious used Anakin & Padmé’s connection in the Force to keep his apprentice from dying. That let him keep Vader at his command, robbed Vader of hope that would cause his apprentice to turn against him, remove a dissonant voice in the Senate, and use her death to give Vader a constant source of hatred and pain, in order to continually keep continue to keep himself alive with the Dark Side.

It's very important to remember that the Dark Side's power to keep physical things alive isn't inherently evil – even if it's selfish. The same goes for the Dark Side's ability to use the Force to create life. Those powers have a MASSIVE potential to be used for good as a tool of the Jedi. Understanding control of both sides of the Force makes Jedi so much MORE in literally every way. Those are things that the Jedi Order gave up by rejecting the Dark Side, rather than learning to control both sides in balance. The balance is necessary in so many ways for the Jedi to actually be what they're supposed to be, and make them effective at keeping the galaxy safe, rather than placing it in danger like they have been.






X :neo:
 
TTM, it's a little unfair to ask me to restate my position and then tell me that I'm repeating myself.

This conversation began because X was talking about the 'redemption' of the Jedi. 'Redemption' isn't a morally neutral word, it implies a transgression that has to be made up for. And given that this transgression is 'rejecting the Dark side' which by your hypothesis is what they were already annihilated for.

I'm not wedded to the Living Force being a will, it could just be a Force of nature. But if it is, the laws of nature don't care about politics. If 'rejecting one side of the Force' is the problem, then it shouldn't care whether you call yourself a Sith or not, it should care whether you reject the Light/Darkside or not.

It's not like individuals are too small to matter, because when there was two Jedi and Two Sith, the imbalance was still a thing. So it's not like small numbers are inconsequential. Which raises the question of why a law of nature that eradicates those that use one side of the force ignores them if they don't call themselves Sith or Jedi. It's established that there was balance for many years with the death of Palpatine. How does that work if Snoke was still around? He's an exclusive Darkside user that functions exactly like a Sith, he just doesn't call himself one. And he was around at this time, when we're told balance was achieved. So is Maz, a lightside Force User that believes that the fight against the Darkside is 'the only fight'.

Here's Lucas on the Force
He does say that the sides have to be kept in balance, but only outlines the imbalance on the part of the darkside. If there's a similar quote about going too far to the lightside I'd love to see it. Not just 'they have to be kept in balance' but some kind of reference to the Jedi failing because they rejected the darkside.

Re the Sith, no they shouldn't be destroyed just for being Sith. Engineering a war, on the other hand is worth at least arrest, which is what the Jedi try to do.

one sect of Force Users devoted to a single aspect of the Force in a position of power over the rest of the Galaxy, and doing so kept the Force out of balance.
There's also the Senate, the Jedi don't rule.

They DON’T teach him how to control his emotions and use that power in the Force for good. They teach him how to detach so that he doesn’t experience the emotions that lead to that.
Are you sure? How do you know that? Obi Wan says 'be mindful of your feelings', which isn't 'suppress' or 'detach.'

Plagueis’ ability to keep loved ones from dying and creating life are INCREDIBLY selfish, but they’re absolutely not evil powers.
We never get to see them. Maybe they function like Horcruxes for all we know.

It was a cycle of never-ending war.
Apart from that thousand years of peace. Out of a period of 6,000 years since Atch-To, that's a big chunk of time without Jedi-Sith War, assuming it was the only time that happened.

That's their myopia on display: they had only just learned that some Sith were still around, and they almost immediately concluded that the prophecy about balance being restored to the Force meant these Sith -- the first Dark Side users they were made aware of in a very long time -- would have to be destroyed in order for the Force to be in balance.
Qui Gon is the one that brings up the prophecy, he's the one that's sure. The Jedi Council are a lot more cautious and hesitant about it.

About Tattooine... the Jedi can and do destroy slave empires (those Egyptian cat people) but there's only ten thousand of them in a galaxy of trillions, they have limits. The only way to prevent the slave trade would be to invade and occupy Tattooine...with what army, exactly? The Republic doesn't have one, so how many thousand Jedi would it take to subjugate Tattooine by themselves? Could they even do it? How many slaves get exploded by their masters in the process? How many would they have to leave behind afterwards to ensure their will was followed?

It's driven home over and over that the Jedi are insufficient to fight a war by themselves. Meanwhile, what's happening in the rest of the galaxy?

Why is there no middle ground here between 'absolutely perfect' and 'completely worthless.'
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
This conversation began because X was talking about the 'redemption' of the Jedi. 'Redemption' isn't a morally neutral word, it implies a transgression that has to be made up for. And given that this transgression is 'rejecting the Dark side' which by your hypothesis is what they were already annihilated for.
Yeah, the word “Redemption” is intentional. The Jedi Order had been improperly training literally tens of thousands of ACTIVE Force Wielders in use of the Force for over a thousand years. They taught that there was “The Force” and “The Dark Side“ but not about the Force being a balance of light and dark, of selflessness and selfishness, with one inextricably interlinked to the other. What they are training Force Wielders by the time of Episode I is essentially straight heresy to the original Prime Jedi doctrine of balance.

The path for redemption is the Jedi returning to being what they were meant to be: Force Wielders who maintain the balance. That's how the Father describes himself in Mortis since he can control both his children.

I'm not wedded to the Living Force being a will, it could just be a Force of nature. But if it is, the laws of nature don't care about politics. If 'rejecting one side of the Force' is the problem, then it shouldn't care whether you call yourself a Sith or not, it should care whether you reject the Light/Darkside or not.
Qui-Gon (who is always used as the messenger of the Force after his death) literally states that it has a will when speaking about Anakin in Episode I, "Finding him was the will of the Force. I have no doubt of that."

It's not like individuals are too small to matter, because when there was two Jedi and Two Sith, the imbalance was still a thing. So it's not like small numbers are inconsequential. Which raises the question of why a law of nature that eradicates those that use one side of the force ignores them if they don't call themselves Sith or Jedi. It's established that there was balance for many years with the death of Palpatine. How does that work if Snoke was still around? He's an exclusive Darkside user that functions exactly like a Sith, he just doesn't call himself one. And he was around at this time, when we're told balance was achieved. So is Maz, a lightside Force User that believes that the fight against the Darkside is 'the only fight'.
Not to be rude, have you actually been reading my posts? As I stated earlier, this isn’t a matter of having equal opposing forces. That’s not true balance. The dark and light in harmony together is the balance. Mortis literally shows Anakin controlling both of them as a demonstration of this. I ALSO very clearly outlined that the imperfect balance that existed after the Sith were destroyed was held between Luke as the Light, Ben as Both, and Snoke as the Dark, and that slipped out of balance when Luke's actions pushed Ben to the Dark (again, repeating the cycle of the Jedi's failures). That's why the Force Awakened in Rey, and now she's Ben's balance in the Force. That's also why both Snoke and Luke passed on in the same film.


Here's Lucas on the Force
He does say that the sides have to be kept in balance, but only outlines the imbalance on the part of the darkside. If there's a similar quote about going too far to the lightside I'd love to see it. Not just 'they have to be kept in balance' but some kind of reference to the Jedi failing because they rejected the darkside.
I mean, Tres & I have both quoted this line of Father's from the Mortis Arc any number of times now, since that was written by George Lucas: “Too much light or dark would be the undoing of life as you understand it.” Also, here's Dave Filoni talking in an interview about how he and George Lucas portrayed that in the Clone Wars, it's all about the Jedi failing because they can't control the Dark Side that they're struggling with. Here's a direct quote from Dave Filoni:


Here's another one of Dave talking about both the intentional direct parallels between Mortis and what takes place in the Galaxy at large, as well as the failures of the Jedi in the Season 5/Series finale of Clone Wars just to further reinforce the contextual relevance of that original Mortis quote:

"But part of the reason why, when it came down to it, that I wanted Sam to play Maul was because he had played the Son. And I wanted this concept, which is a very far-out concept, that there were echoes of everything that happened on Mortis happening throughout the show. And that Maul is an echo of the Son and some of the evil the Son was talking about which echoes in our galaxy. There were certain things that Sam and I did vocally that we wanted to be specifically like the Son. When we first find Maul, you can even hear Maul muttering some of the same dialogue that the Son actually says on Mortis. So there’s definitely a connection between those two characters, because they’re both connected to the dark side of the Force."

All of these things that are wrapped up in Ahsoka’s story, which ultimately make her realize what the audience realizes. “I love the Jedi Order. They’re very important to me, I’ve always respected them. But there’s something wrong here, and I need to walk away from it to assess it.”

Here's Bendu in Rebels talking about the conflict existing inside the Kanan because he's inherently afraid of the Dark side corrupting Ezra, and why he outright dismisses the idea of that outright:


Here's another one of Dave Filoni talking about the The Priestesses, Force Gods, Bendu and The Force & how the practices of the Jedi and the Sith are beliefs that they've placed onto the Force as their way of thinking and their way of controlling it, and they're not the Force itself:



Are you sure? How do you know that? Obi Wan says 'be mindful of your feelings', which isn't 'suppress' or 'detach.'
I am, because Yoda literally says tells Anakin to let go of his attachments and everything he'd fear to lose:


We never get to see them. Maybe they function like Horcruxes for all we know.
We DO get to see them. I listed a MASSIVE number of specific examples of ways that those types of things have been achieved with the Force in both the shows & films. You can't just claim we've never seen them, because Plagueis himself has never been shown.

Apart from that thousand years of peace. Out of a period of 6,000 years since Atch-To, that's a big chunk of time without Jedi-Sith War, assuming it was the only time that happened.
As we've stated numerous times, that ISN'T a period of peace. It's a 1000 year period without direct conflict between the Jedi the Sith. There's no indication there was peace that whole time. The Jedi called themselves "the guardians of peace" but that's just a title for someone who has to actively intervene in conflicts. The galaxy itself was still filled with injustices outside of the Old Republic that the Jedi weren't involving themselves in.

Qui Gon is the one that brings up the prophecy, he's the one that's sure. The Jedi Council are a lot more cautious and hesitant about it.
And he's definitively shown to be correct in the Mortis Arc.

About Tattooine... the Jedi can and do destroy slave empires (those Egyptian cat people) but there's only ten thousand of them in a galaxy of trillions, they have limits. The only way to prevent the slave trade would be to invade and occupy Tattooine...with what army, exactly? The Republic doesn't have one, so how many thousand Jedi would it take to subjugate Tattooine by themselves? Could they even do it? How many slaves get exploded by their masters in the process? How many would they have to leave behind afterwards to ensure their will was followed?

It's driven home over and over that the Jedi are insufficient to fight a war by themselves. Meanwhile, what's happening in the rest of the galaxy?
I'm sorry, the Jedi exist on the capital world of galactic politics and negotiation. Why exactly would liberating Tatooine require subjugation by a Jedi Army? ONE Dark Lord of the Sith took control of almost the entire galaxy with basically nothing but politics. But for some reason, the Jedi have thousands of times more resources, but still can't use either politics OR combat to liberate the oppressed?

Why is there no middle ground here between 'absolutely perfect' and 'completely worthless.'
I think that you're hung up on this idea of extreme dichotomies FAR too much.

The Jedi Order's codes, teachings, and practices are fundamentally flawed in a way that generates conflict within themselves, conflict within the Force, brings about war, as well as their own destruction. No one's saying that they didn't help people or do good, but that's no different from the way that regular people or other servants of the government help out each other. The Jedi have a VASTLY larger role they should be fulfilling because of their connection to the Force. What everything boils down to is: Did the benefits that the Jedi's presence provided outweigh the issues they created? No. Not in the slightest. How do we know?

The Chosen One didn't arise until the Jedi could be destroyed. If the Jedi's ways could have been changed to bring about Balance in the Force, and not continually generate conflict between the Light and Dark, there's 1000 years where that could have happened... and never did. The core premise of the prophesy is an example that the Jedi are objectively failures at everything they were supposed to be, and weren't able to change. Giving them a full millennium to adapt was PLENTY of time. If something doesn't change and continues to be an issue after 1000 years, the idea of destroying that is very much a last resort, and not the ideal path, but it's the path that's made VERY clear by the events in the story.




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Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
@Minato This is a more broad-stokes reply to your first post since there've been a couple follow-ups since then:

As the most prominent knowledgable acolytes of the Force, the Jedi Order don’t seem to understand that adhering to one side of the Force inherently generates war. If they don't understand that, that's a problem in and of itself. Their code is galvanizing conflict to rise against them, which fundamentally undermines that their role is that of peacekeepers.
If the Force requires them all to be selfish on daily basis, to regularly use the Force to achieve their goals instead of helping other then they can never be peacekeepers. Using their might for selfish ends creates conflict against one all on it's own.

While there are pros and cons to the Jedi & the Republic being in charge of a large chunk of the Galaxy, there are also those pros and cons to the Sith's Galactic Empire being in charge. There’s no doubt that the Empire will go anywhere in the galaxy to rule it, and they use fear to quell opposition to discourage conflict, not to mention the Senate applauded the creation of the Empire.

We learn to understand that all the Clones and Stormtroopers are all real people with their own views. The Death Stars were all manned by people: they had technicians, officers, janitors, and all sorts of regular people with military security clearances. The Sith Empire blew up the peaceful dissonants on Alderaan, and the Rebellion blew up two battle stations of the Galactic Imperial Army. Depending on your PR spin, both of those could be called acts of terrorism. Each side is willing to accept necessity of a massive loss of enemy life to bring about the change they’re interested in. Yes – the Empire it was absolutely evil and terrible, but the Old Republic was a complete disaster of injustice and inaction that didn’t serve its citizens, which is why that democracy died with thunderous applause. Anything that’s only supported by one side of the Force doesn’t work, because the other side pushes against it until the system finally fails under its own incompetence, or gets massively upended. Both result in sparking conflict that costs countless innocent lives of galactic citizens every time.
And for all the Republic's failures, and the Empire willingness to intercede everywhere, I'd argue the Empire was the worse trade off, they personally murders trillions of people, enslaved major portions of the galaxy and completely extinquished entire civilisations. Rey will have a choice too, will she allow the people of the galaxy to practice self-governence or not, even if some of them she disagrees with? Will she accept any help from any government for her Jedi to grow. There are people outside the Republic the Jedi didn't help, but there will be many if not more people Rey's Jedi can't help if she has no authority to train anyone from any culture and has to rely on charity on an individual basis.

The biggest thing is that the Jedi are able to get defeated by the very politics and bureaucracy of the place that they’ve intentionally contained themselves within – the legacy of the Jedi is that of failure. They installed themselves there to be able to cling ONLY to the Selfless paths of Force use – which they were never meant to do. Thank you for mentioning that the Jedi call it, “the Force” and “the Dark side” because that’s important to that point. It’s referred to on Mortis as the Light and the Dark, as well as doing what is Selfless and what is Selfish, but only as a WHOLE is it ever referred to as “The Force.” This is an even MORE important distinction, because for 1000 years, the Jedi have taught that the Light IS the Force, and the Dark Side is something sinister, dangerous, and unnatural. If that dogma could've been overturned, it would have been. Instead, it became so entrenched that it was impossible to uproot. That's why the Chosen One only appears when the Sith have the ability to wipe out the Jedi.
The Chosen saves the Jedi from being wiped out. It leaves Luke, trained by Yoda and Obi-Wan as the last man standing. For good or for ill (given the sequel trilogy, we can say for ill, things are worse then ever), that was his role.

This is where comparing the role of the Prime Jedi as maintaining the Balance, and then looking at what the Jedi became by twisting those ideals into something else that @The Twilight Mexican covered brilliantly when looking at the differences between the original Codes and their interpretations by the Jedi Order completely changing their meaning. Additionally, the Jedi Order only kept their name after the schism because the Sith are the ones who took up a different one. They've been usurping the title of being Jedi while practicing something completely different to what the Jedi always were. They've been doing it so prominently that referring to the ACTUAL Jedi have to be called the Prime Jedi to differentiate them. They quite literally changed what the galaxy believed that Jedi were, and a huge amount of the galaxy turned against them in support of the Empire.
Okay, NONE OF US have read any stories about how the original Jedi actually spend their days in the new canon or how selfish they were in their interactions with other cultures, or how interested in peace, justice, conquest or ruling they were. Let's not blindly assume they were definitely like this or that or always right about everything based on one mural that has imagery you find appealing.

There’s no reason the Jedi EVER needed to only exist or act in the Old Republic. Saying that, “they let people of the galaxy forge their own destinies” is a very PR-poetic way of saying “they actively let people be enslaved because they only cared about the destinies of people under their own democracy.” That’s one of the most key themes in Episodes I & II and the entire importance of Anakin’s background as a freed slave from outside of the Old Republic. What the Jedi had become needed to be completely removed before the Galaxy could heal as much as the Sith needed to be destroyed. If you think of the Galaxy as a living thing, rule under solely Jedi Order or the Sith are like having tumors. They each lack specific types of healthy cellular function that should be present. One’s massive and benign, and the other’s tiny and malignant. They’re both bad to have, and they should both be completely removed to prevent them from regrowing, and allow something healthy to take their place.
The moment you force a democracy without it being a agreed upon by a majority, to go to a war of conquest on a planet slave-trading or no, it stops being a democracy and starts being a dictatorship. And Tatioone needs more then lightsabers killing slave owners. It's a barely habitable world at all. It needs people, with resources to be willing to bring water, food and supplies there after the Huttese and their system was taken out of the picture for generations before anyone was helped. The Republic isn't the only entity that can be this probably, but Jedi would've needed to attach themselves as peacekeepers to some other interstellar government for generations instead. And they would've needed to be exceedingly selfless to maroon themselves on a barren planet waiting for it to reach prosperity some day they can't see. Their assocation with the Republic probably started very similiarly.



Let’s talk about cheating death with the Force, because it happens in several different ways.

The Dark side gives power to cheat death and unnaturally remain alive because they have a selfish attachment to mortal life. The Nightsisters used the Dark Side to create and strengthen physical matter, and also to assume ghost-like incorporeal forms – but those were all just forms of life, as they could still be killed. The Light side are the only one who come back as Force Ghosts, because it’s associated with their selfless nature of allowing themselves to return to the Force and not being attached to their crude physical forms allowing them to exist beyond death. The Sith could create phantoms like Darth Bane did, but Yoda dismisses it as a mere illusion and not a living thing. Insofar as we can tell, the potential for utilizing the Dark Side of the Force to prevent death is definitely an established capability as much as using the Light Side to move beyond mortal life after death. There’s no reason to assume Sidious was lying about Plagueis' accomplishments, but there IS still more to it.

There’re two Force powers from Clone Wars, and one from The Last Jedi that provide some more context for Palpatine’s specific claim about cheating death. The Daughter uses the last of her own Life Force to bring Ahsoka back from the dead through a selfless act, so we know that giving life force to someone else in exchange for your own is possible. Additionally, Sidious’ pupil Maul used the Dark Side to keep himself unnaturally alive for YEARS after being cut in half, by clinging to his hatred, his desire for revenge, and focusing constantly on the Sith mantra – but it drove him utterly insane until Talzin helped to restore him. Snoke is shown to’ve been capable of bridging Rey & Ben’s minds across the galaxy because of their pre-existing connection to one another, which shows that the Dark Side being able to trigger links between individuals in the Force. So, let’s put all of that together:

Anakin & Padmé were very closely connected in the Force, and he had visions of her dying in childbirth from the strength of that connection. Palpatine knew all about that connection, and he also knew each of them individually quite well. Something that’s not answered is: How would Sidious have had ANY idea what Padmé’s fate was a galaxy away when Anakin didn’t? Why would he have been staying aware of it at all?

It’s important to pay attention to specific the words Sidious uses when speaking of his master Plagueis, “He was able to keep the ones he cared about from dying.” This is a power that Sidious says he can teach Vader, but isn’t something Vader himself knows in Episode III. Sidious would have been the only Sith with that power – and he only cared about keeping Vader alive and under his control. On top of that, Padmé was also a danger to him because she was one of the few openly opposed his rule as Emperor, and also rejected Anakin’s path on the Dark Side. The intercutting between Padmé’s medically unexplained death (droids can’t sense the Force) and Vader rising from his surgery pretty heavily implies that her lifeforce was used to keep Vader alive. “It seems that in your anger, you killed her.” Sidious crafts his manipulations VERY carefully. It’s most likely that Sidious used Anakin & Padmé’s connection in the Force to keep his apprentice from dying. That let him keep Vader at his command, robbed Vader of hope that would cause his apprentice to turn against him, remove a dissonant voice in the Senate, and use her death to give Vader a constant source of hatred and pain, in order to continually keep continue to keep himself alive with the Dark Side.

It's very important to remember that the Dark Side's power to keep physical things alive isn't inherently evil – even if it's selfish. The same goes for the Dark Side's ability to use the Force to create life. Those powers have a MASSIVE potential to be used for good as a tool of the Jedi. Understanding control of both sides of the Force makes Jedi so much MORE in literally every way. Those are things that the Jedi Order gave up by rejecting the Dark Side, rather than learning to control both sides in balance. The balance is necessary in so many ways for the Jedi to actually be what they're supposed to be, and make them effective at keeping the galaxy safe, rather than placing it in danger like they have been.
Sidious wanted Anakin on his side, Anakin wanted to save his wife and children, and Sidious was willing to lie to get Anakin on his side to do it. So no, Sidious saying so is not a reason to believe that something is so. If Plagueis' research was in some other direction entirely and Anakin came to him having had the same visions, you think he would just go "that's rough buddy".

And fatally and agonisingly draining the lifeforce of another person to extend another is a lot more then selfish, it's abhorrent. You really think that is not a potential way generating conflict against you? Stealing a person's life?
 
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X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
If the Force requires them all to be selfish on daily basis, to regularly use the Force to achieve their goals instead of helping other then they can never be peacekeepers. Using their might for selfish ends creates conflict against one all on it's own.
Wait, what? No one said they have to do something selfish every day. All it's talking about is balancing the things that you do for others with the things you do for yourself, and not cutting off one side and making yourself into either a Monk or a Egomaniac. The end of Rebels is the perfect example of doing that: Ezra choosing to break off from the Rebellion to stay and protect his own homeworld and his crew/family. That was ultimately something selfish by taking away from the goals of the Rebellion. However, it was still used for good that the Rebellion never would have accomplished on its own. The Jedi have the power to be MASSIVELY influential, even in small numbers. That's what makes it so important that they do good where they are – which was the whole point that started this discussion since that's the message that brings Anakin's origins as a slave on Tatooine into connection with the kids kept in servitude on Canto Bight – both places outside of the reach of the Republic in need of help.

(Also, if you want to dig into psychological egoism, you can make the argument that all motivations – even altruism – are inherently selfish ones, and denying that is fundamentally denying your own agency. That's just making yourself into a tool to be manipulated by others for their own ends, which is exactly how the Jedi got themselves destroyed in the first place).


And for all the Republic's failures, and the Empire willingness to intercede everywhere, I'd argue the Empire was the worse trade off, they personally murders trillions of people, enslaved major portions of the galaxy and completely extinquished entire civilisations. Rey will have a choice too, will she allow the people of the galaxy to practice self-governence or not, even if some of them she disagrees with? Will she accept any help from any government for her Jedi to grow. There are people outside the Republic the Jedi didn't help, but there will be many if not more people Rey's Jedi can't help if she has no authority to train anyone from any culture and has to rely on charity on an individual basis.
Ok, so this is really two points. First, let's tackle the galactic governing body. The Old Republic was a quagmire of ineffective democracy that wasn't helping the people in the galaxy who needed it and let people die while they discussed things in a committee. That shifted into a system that was more efficient, but also more ruthless – the Empire. That was bad because it was authoritarian and totalitarian in the extreme. So, when the Empire was destroyed... they went back to the Republic and demilitarization again – and with it they brought back all of the problems that existed before. They're repeating a cycle by not learning from its failures: Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. All of the lessons in The Last Jedi are an analysis of why the events in The Force Awakens are an echo of what came before it: It addresses the cycle of war, repetition in galactic government, the Light against the Dark, even in the themes of how it works as a Star Wars story, and shows the path to getting out of that seemingly self-perpetuating cycle.

Additionally, the Jedi don't need to be a part of the galactic government. Technically speaking, if we look at the description given in A New Hope, the practitioners of the arts of the Force are treated as a religion – they even train in temples. The Jedi don't have to exist as a single body, so long as their codes are unified and uphold the balance of the Force. Individuals can train on their own worlds, and in their own cultures and help their own people however they choose to. If there are Jedi who represent their own cultures, and those cultures come into conflict with one another, the Jedi exist as moderators on both sides who can deescalate conflict – and keep the peace. That's EXACTLY what the Jedi's role is supposed to be. They protect what they're passionate about, but for the good of everyone. Selfish motivations for selfless goals.

The Chosen saves the Jedi from being wiped out. It leaves Luke, trained by Yoda and Obi-Wan as the last man standing. For good or for ill (given the sequel trilogy, we can say for ill, things are worse then ever), that was his role.
This is where nitpicking of the term "Jedi" comes into play, so I'll split it out a bit more:

  1. The Prime Jedi were founded and kept the Force in Balance.
  2. They split into the dark/selfish Sith and the light/selfless Jedi Order: The Force fell out of balance, and the galaxy fell deeper into conflict.
  3. The Sith and Jedi Order were in conflict for several millennia.
  4. The Sith fell into "extinction" (hiding) and the Jedi Order grew for 1000 years.
  5. Unopposed, the Jedi Order never brought balance to the Force during their prominence.
  6. The Sith staged a plan to take over the Old Republic & destroy the Jedi Order.
  7. The Chosen One: Anakin emerged & was trained by the Jedi Order, as the Sith rose and war spread across the galaxy.
  8. Anakin joined the Sith, became Darth Vader, and destroyed the Jedi Order thus establishing the Galactic Empire.
  9. Anakin's son Luke was trained by the last of the Jedi Order who had also trained his father – attempting to correct their own mistakes.
  10. Darth Vader betrayed and destroyed the Sith, returning to the Light and the Cosmic Force.
  11. The Force was left in a delicate Balance: Luke's Light was left matched by Snoke's Dark.
  12. The Galactic Empire fell and the New Republic was formed.
  13. Luke created a new Jedi training temple to instruct Ben & other students in the ways of the Force.
  14. The teachings of the Jedi Order didn't allow Luke to accept the Dark Side, and that pushed Ben to become Kylo Ren.
  15. Conflict again arose with the First Order against the New Republic as Kylo Ren focused on following the path of Darth Vader to power.
  16. Luke removed himself from the Force, studied the failures of the Jedi and the true nature of the Force itself to understand.
  17. Rey discovered that the Force had awoken in her, and Anakin's lightsaber called out to her, rejecting Ben.
  18. Rey studied under Luke, who trained her in why the Jedi Order needed to end. She showed him why the JEDI needed to remain.
  19. Ben kills Snoke for the selfish motivations of taking his ruling the First Order.
  20. Luke dies selflessly to save Rey & the Resistance, passing on the title and legacy of the Jedi to her.
  21. Balance now exists between both halves of The Chosen One's legacy in the Force: Vader's legacy in Ben & Anakin's in Rey.
So, the "Jedi" in some sense have always existed in some capacity. The Jedi Order were a fallen version of the Prime Jedi, and technically speaking so were the Sith in the same capacity. The Chosen One eliminated both the Jedi Order and the Sith, leaving a path by which the Jedi could once again emerge from following the will of the Force, and learning from the mistakes that both the Sith and the Jedi Order had made in straying from the path of the Prime Jedi.

The path of the Jedi's legacy returning was passed from Qui-Gon to Obi-Wan to Yoda to Anakin to Luke.

That chain is important, because Qui-Gon acting outside of the Old Republic and the duties of the Jedi Order are what brought him to Anakin. Additionally, it's why he's the Jedi who is able to appear as a Force Ghost to Obi-Wan & Yoda. He's teaching them as Luke grows to inherit his own legacy. Luke's legacy is a difficult one, because he has to embrace the Light Side of the Force to be able to stand against the Dark and they need to ensure that he doesn't fall to the same things that turned Anakin. Part of what he is learning is their failures with his father and rejecting that Vader needs to die. Luke doesn't believe that the good in him was extinguished when he fell to the Dark Side – but that's something Obi-Wan and Yoda still can't see because of their understanding of the extreme juxtapositions of the Jedi Order and Sith as ultimate expressions of Light and Dark.

Luke is ultimately right and is able to save his father from being wholly consumed by Dark Side. It was an act of love AND of hatred that destroyed Darth Sidious and ended the legacy of the Sith. Anakin becomes a Jedi again before he dies (that's why he's able to be a Force Ghost) – he isn't a member of the Jedi Order or the Sith, but rather he exists as he was always meant to as the Chosen One: he is a balance of the Light and Dark sides of the Force.

Luke fundamentally understands the balance of the Force. He knows that one isn't lost to one path forever. However, because of his role in destroying the Sith and how he drew power from his attachments to his friends being in danger, he has a weakness when it comes to threats of the Dark Side that pushes him into acting out of fear that he's never learned to control properly (abandoning his training and running to Bespin, slicing off Vader's hand in rage when Leia's threatened). It's THAT last lingering piece of the Jedi Order that exists as an instinct that wasn't removed from his training, because it was necessary for him to be stronger in the Light and to fear the Dark in order to overcome Sidious. That ultimately causes the downfall of the Balance and pushes Ben towards Snoke.

However, Luke does the right thing. He doesn't form a counter-force to stop Snoke and Kylo Ren. That's what the Jedi Order would have done. Instead, he recognizes the faults in the Jedi teachings as being his own. He removes himself from the Force because he knows that the Light will reemerge, and studies the history of the Jedi. Now – that takes a toll on Luke, because he has to accept his failures and he sees the failures of the Jedi Order and of himself as TRUTH of the the legacy he has made as a Legend. When Rey arrives, he finally learns to pass on the thing that Obi-Wan, Yoda, & Anakin all passed on to him: failure. He teaches Rey the weaknesses of the Jedi Order and of himself, so that she is able to rise above them. It's understanding that that allows him to embrace the Force again, and become a Legend that is MORE than his own failures. He's passed on the legacy of the Jedi to Rey so that they can grow beyond their failures and not be defeated by them. The Jedi can survive and improve.

When that comes to the prophesy, it's also important. Ben is embracing Vader's legacy of destroying his Dark Side master and having the power to rule and bring peace to the galaxy. Rey's accepting Anakin's legacy that's called out to and chosen her – and it's important to remember that Anakin died as a Jedi in balance in the Force – accepting the Light and Dark and saving him from dying as Darth Vader. That's why she attempts to save Ben, but he can't come to the Light Side and remain in balance. She fails by attempting to win how Luke won. If she wants to save him, she has to accept her own selfish darkness otherwise there won't be selfless light that he can accept. Ben is Vader's son, but Rey is just as much Luke's daughter since he passed his legacy off to her, and she is the other half of Anakin's legacy and balance in the Force. That's even more obvious in the confrontation. Rey is now holding on to Anakin's legacy – his lightsaber, but Ben still wants it, too. She retains it, but now it's split in half, like the Force. How do you put it back together into something new that's also a representation of what came before? You take what's broken, and you honor what came before, but you make it your own.

Okay, NONE OF US have read any stories about how the original Jedi actually spend their days in the new canon or how selfish they were in their interactions with other cultures, or how interested in peace, justice, conquest or ruling they were. Let's not blindly assume they were definitely like this or that or always right about everything based on one mural that has imagery you find appealing.
Oh, I'm not ONLY basing this on the mosaic image of the Prime Jedi in the first Jedi temple (who's sitting in a state of meditation and balance as described in the Visual Dictionary for The Last Jedi). The Mortis Gods describe the two halves of the force that Daughter and Son represent as being that which is selfiless and that which is selfish, while the Father describes himself as a Force wielder who keeps them in balance. The Bendu even calls the sides of the Force by name as the Ashla (light) and Bogan (dark), and describes himself as the one in the middle. Every depiction of practitioners of the ancient Force all depict those beings maintaining balance. Every ancient being who speaks to the Jedi talks to them somewhat like children who don't really understand what they're talking about. There's plenty of basis in the core Star Wars media to understand what the original Jedi Order was built on, even if we don't yet know the specifics

On top of that, understanding what each side of the Force IS and what it represents allows you to look at how those focuses have shaped the traditions, motivations, and behaviour of both the Jedi Order and the Sith. Even if we don't know exactly HOW the Prime Jedi were eventually split apart into two disparate factions, it's easy to understand where they came from. There's enough across the mythology and history presented to give plenty of understanding for how that changed over time.

The moment you force a democracy without it being a agreed upon by a majority, to go to a war of conquest on a planet slave-trading or no, it stops being a democracy and starts being a dictatorship. And Tatioone needs more then lightsabers killing slave owners. It's a barely habitable world at all. It needs people, with resources to be willing to bring water, food and supplies there after the Huttese and their system was taken out of the picture for generations before anyone was helped. The Republic isn't the only entity that can be this probably, but Jedi would've needed to attach themselves as peacekeepers to some other interstellar government for generations instead. And they would've needed to be exceedingly selfless to maroon themselves on a barren planet waiting for it to reach prosperity some day they can't see. Their assocation with the Republic probably started very similiarly.
See my earlier comment about why the Jedi are ultimately a religious institution and tying them to a governmental body is fundamentally unnecessary and ultimately probably a bad idea.

Sidious wanted Anakin on his side, Anakin wanted to save his wife and children, and Sidious was willing to lie to get Anakin on his side to do it. So no, Sidious saying so is not a reason to believe that something is so. If Plagueis' research was in some other direction entirely and Anakin came to him having had the same visions, you think he would just go "that's rough buddy".

And fatally and agonisingly draining the lifeforce of another person to extend another is a lot more then selfish, it's abhorrent. You really think that is not a potential way generating conflict against you? Stealing a person's life?
There's a VERY important distinction about that when it comes to the Emperor. We know for certain that Sidious has twisted the truth to a particular perspective (he is a career politician after all). That being said, as someone who legitimately was a VERY successful politician, he also understands that there is a MONUMENTALLY dangerous difference between manipulating the truth and outright lying. I can't think of even a single example of Palpatine/Sidious outright lying about ANYTHING. Always telling a version of the truth from a particular perspective is how he maintains his control, so something that's just blatantly untrue is dangerous to him. Especially with Vader as his apprentice, lying about the powers he'd be able to teach him is something he'd have no reason to do, because it'd be FAR more likely to turn Vader against him – something that Sith always need to be mindful of.

On top of that, Sidious is THE Dark Lord of the Sith, and as such is the most knowledgable and powerful Dark Side user ever. Sidious is digging into things that are VASTLY more complex and dangerous in the Force than saving someone. On top of that as I showed before, there are NUMEROUS examples of far less trained practicioners of the Dark Side being capable of doing saving themselves from what should be fatal injuries – the most significant that being Maul, since he was Sidious' apprentice. We also see Mother Talzin using Dark Side magic to restore Maul's health and strength. There are MORE than enough indications that the ability to save a loved one is a power that the Dark Side of the Force can enable one to do, and Sidious is far, FAR more capable than any of them.

The one and only power he mentions that we haven't seen is when he says, "he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create life." THAT is a much more significant power – but it's not one that Anakin's interested in, which is why he mentions the ability to keep the ones he cared about from dying. However, this is another thing that understanding the Dark and Light sides of the Force give plenty of insight into. The Sith fear death, and that fear drives their power, and helps them find ways to keep themselves alive with the power of the Dark Side. All of their power is selfish and deeply rooted in their own mortal life. Ultimately that means that they're most interested in understanding how the ties of the Cosmic Force work with the Living Force in the physical world. That's why the Sith never had the ability to become Force Ghosts at all, and the Jedi Order didn't originally believe in that capability either.

Again, that distinction bring the whole topic back around, because it helps to show that the Dark and Light Sides are specific expressions of a path that certain groups took to understand using a part of the Force's power – they're not actually a part of the Force itself. The Force exists as the Cosmic Force and Living Force continually feeding back into one another. Only utilizing the Dark Side or the Light Side creates an imbalance in that flow of the Force itself, and that feedback loop continually pushes and self-regulates. If the Force is out of balance, that becomes conflict as the flow pushes itself back into balance. That intent and the awareness of the Force is the will of the Force that Qui-Gon speaks about. That is what the Jedi are supposed to feel and follow, because that's what allows them to maintain the balance of the Force and peace in the galaxy – by preventing that conflict in the Force from arising and manifesting, and also by stopping conflict as mediators and individuals.

That's what the Jedi Order wasn't doing for 1000 years. It's why the Chosen One only showed up when he could destroy both them and the Sith. That allowed the Force to be able to return to being in balance, so that the Jedi could go back to being what they were supposed to be – guardians of peace and justice who wielded the Force and kept it in balance.




X:neo:
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
TTM, it's a little unfair to ask me to restate my position and then tell me that I'm repeating myself.
I was asking you to clarify the reason(s) for your ongoing rejection of the canon, established nature of the Force, Sith, Jedi, etc.

What I got was (what feels like) a repeated non sequitur, non-answer to a non-issue question no one is asking about whether a religious sect "deserved genocide" for practicing their religion wrong. Which has precisely nothing to do with the topic initially under dissection anyway.

I am still assuming good faith, but this whole exchange is just increasingly bizarre and feels very "If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit."
This conversation began because X was talking about the 'redemption' of the Jedi. 'Redemption' isn't a morally neutral word, it implies a transgression that has to be made up for.
It does not by necessity imply a moral component, no. The word is often -- probably most often in contemporary usage -- simply used to refer to making up for a shortcoming.
I'm not wedded to the Living Force being a will, it could just be a Force of nature. But if it is, the laws of nature don't care about politics.
They also wouldn't care about whether someone "deserves genocide." =P
Here's Lucas on the Force
He does say that the sides have to be kept in balance, but only outlines the imbalance on the part of the darkside. If there's a similar quote about going too far to the lightside I'd love to see it. Not just 'they have to be kept in balance' but some kind of reference to the Jedi failing because they rejected the darkside.
In addition to the quotations and recordings X has already provided that, on their own, are sufficient to resolve your question, we also have this:

The Clone Wars S03E16 Altar of Mortis | Episode Featurette

Dave Filoni said:
In the Mortis trilogy, with Christian Taylor -- the writer -- and I were discussing these stories after George had laid them out. We were discussing "How do we conquer this?" and "How do we … how do we bring it all together to make it make sense and still maintain some kind of continuity with the other 'Star Wars' films"?

With something this supernatural, I would just tell Christian, "You have to think of it like these are three entire episodes that take place in the tree when Luke is on Dagobah." This is all spiritual, this is all metaphorical, this is all symbolic in some way. Ultimately, the Dagger of Mortis is really just more of a metaphorical device.

The difficult thing about the Dagger was trying to work out the logic of it. You have this weapon that can kill these beings. Joel Aron and I made the blade manifest itself out of smoke, so it that it seems to have some kind of more magical properties. I always thought it was a very Wagnerian scene, to go down into the depths, surrounded by fire.

If we branch on our discussion on the Dagger as a metaphor, then I can tell you that many things in this arc of stories is a metaphor. Everything is symbolic of everything that takes place in all six "Star Wars" films.
This alone soundly puts to rest your claim that "The idea of the Force needing to rebalance itself through mutual annihilation is not supported by events in the films." That is precisely what the Mortis arc -- a story "symbolic of everything that takes place in all six 'Star Wars' films" -- portrays.

But even if that weren't enough, we have these comments from Lucas throughout the decades:

"The Force has two sides to it - [Light and Dark]. It is not a[n inherently] malevolent or benevolent thing."
- From a 1980 interview with Time

"The idea of positive and negative, that there are two sides to an entity, a push and a pull, a yin and a yang, and the struggle between the two sides are issues of nature that I wanted to include in the film."
- From "Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays," 1997

"The overriding philosophy in Episode I—and in all the 'Star Wars' movies, for that matter—is the balance between good and evil."
- From "Star Wars: The Making of Episode I," 1999

"I wanted to have this mythological footing because I was basing the films on the idea that the Force has two sides, the good side, the evil side, and they both need to be there. Most religions are built on that, whether it's called yin and yang, God and the devil—everything is built on the push-pull tension created by two sides of the equation. Right from the very beginning, that was the key issue in 'Star Wars.'"
- From a 2002 interview with Time

"In each of us we have to balance these emotions, and in the 'Star Wars' saga the most important point is balance, balance between everything."
- 2002 interview with Time

In particular, note these portions of some of those comments: "The overriding philosophy in ... all the 'Star Wars' movies"; "Right from the very beginning, that was the key issue in 'Star Wars"; "... in the 'Star Wars' saga the most important point is balance."

Note as well that Lucas describes this balance he speaks of a natural push-pull between two equal sides. This isn't an imbalance in need of correction; this is the long forgotten balance needing to be restored. That's what the "Star Wars" movies are about.

And to reiterate another thing Filoni said in his quote above, the concepts for the Mortis arc came from Lucas himself. Christian Taylor, who scripted those episodes, has said the same:

The thing that is amazing is that George is completely involved in the show. ... We get these outlines for "Clone Wars" and George has built the outline with you. ...

... I remember sitting in the room and George talked about The Force, he did his monologue. I wished I had recorded it on my iPhone, it was so iconic, but I probably would have been fired if I had done that. And it was all so thought out and incredibly articulated. There’s a rhyme and reason to it, it’s not just fluff, and it fits very much in with my spiritual path of Buddhism and the true teachings of Christianity, not the bigoted, twisted version of Christianity. Then we sort of got to pick what we wanted to do and I thought, "What am I going to ask for? Am I going to pick the C-3PO arc or the Ahsoka?" And I decided to pick the scariest one, the one everyone had been joking about as the frightening one. I knew it would be terrible or really wonderful. And it was wonderful. It’s very operatic, very Wagnerian, it’s big and it’s epic. It was controversial as well. I knew it would be an interesting failure or an interesting success. ...

... The "Mortis" arc, it was an incredible challenge. It was a chance for George to explore aspects of The Force that had never been discussed before and was a spiritual universe outside of the traditional "Star Wars" we know and love….
And for thorough measure:

Clone Wars S03E17 Ghosts of Mortis | Episode Featurette

Dave Filoni said:
And as disappointing as it was in a way, I guess -- because it would have been cool to have these characters appear in "Clone Wars" -- it was absolutely the right thing to do. Because they just can’t exist in that form, they can’t exist in that way. But I think for fans it would be neat to know that at least that idea was considered, that we went very far with it, and that in the end, after discussions, it was really George that said "No, I thought this would be good, I wanted to do this, but it doesn’t jive with my bigger explanation of the Force."

And it gives you an insight to the detail to which he ... gets into these issues with the Force and these concepts of the bigger spiritual aspects of "Star Wars." He’s very involved in it, and to be honest, the writers and I feel very strongly, when we are bringing these types of episodes to the screen -- I mean, George has to be more involved than normal. Because we have to get this stuff right. Of everything we do, we have to get this stuff right. Because this is the Force. This is the whole ballgame.
Why is there no middle ground here between 'absolutely perfect' and 'completely worthless.'
Why is there no middle ground here between 'absolutely perfect' and 'completely worthless.'
Why is there no middle ground ...
WHY INDEED

=P
 

Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
Wait, what? No one said they have to do something selfish every day. All it's talking about is balancing the things that you do for others with the things you do for yourself, and not cutting off one side and making yourself into either a Monk or a Egomaniac.
You've been talking this whole time about the need to in equal parts use the Force selfishly and selflessly.

The end of Rebels is the perfect example of doing that: Ezra choosing to break off from the Rebellion to stay and protect his own homeworld and his crew/family. That was ultimately something selfish by taking away from the goals of the Rebellion. However, it was still used for good that the Rebellion never would have accomplished on its own. The Jedi have the power to be MASSIVELY influential, even in small numbers. That's what makes it so important that they do good where they are – which was the whole point that started this discussion since that's the message that brings Anakin's origins as a slave on Tatooine into connection with the kids kept in servitude on Canto Bight – both places outside of the reach of the Republic in need of help.

(Also, if you want to dig into psychological egoism, you can make the argument that all motivations – even altruism – are inherently selfish ones, and denying that is fundamentally denying your own agency. That's just making yourself into a tool to be manipulated by others for their own ends, which is exactly how the Jedi got themselves destroyed in the first place).
There's no need for everyone that uses the Force to be a Jedi, or for the Jedi to always be like those for who their path doesn't work.


Ok, so this is really two points. First, let's tackle the galactic governing body. The Old Republic was a quagmire of ineffective democracy that wasn't helping the people in the galaxy who needed it and let people die while they discussed things in a committee. That shifted into a system that was more efficient, but also more ruthless – the Empire. That was bad because it was authoritarian and totalitarian in the extreme. So, when the Empire was destroyed... they went back to the Republic and demilitarization again – and with it they brought back all of the problems that existed before. They're repeating a cycle by not learning from its failures: Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. All of the lessons in The Last Jedi are an analysis of why the events in The Force Awakens are an echo of what came before it: It addresses the cycle of war, repetition in galactic government, the Light against the Dark, even in the themes of how it works as a Star Wars story, and shows the path to getting out of that seemingly self-perpetuating cycle.

Additionally, the Jedi don't need to be a part of the galactic government. Technically speaking, if we look at the description given in A New Hope, the practitioners of the arts of the Force are treated as a religion – they even train in temples. The Jedi don't have to exist as a single body, so long as their codes are unified and uphold the balance of the Force. Individuals can train on their own worlds, and in their own cultures and help their own people however they choose to. If there are Jedi who represent their own cultures, and those cultures come into conflict with one another, the Jedi exist as moderators on both sides who can deescalate conflict – and keep the peace. That's EXACTLY what the Jedi's role is supposed to be. They protect what they're passionate about, but for the good of everyone. Selfish motivations for selfless goals.
If Jedi stay on their own world then they abandon trillions of people on other words to suffering on their own devices. Why is it okay for these new Jedi to do the best they can in their immediate vicinity but the old Jedi Order is condemned for having a reach that proved itself limited in anyway by the practical reality of living in a big galaxy populated by a very diverse number of species?

This is where nitpicking of the term "Jedi" comes into play, so I'll split it out a bit more:

  1. The Prime Jedi were founded and kept the Force in Balance.
  2. They split into the dark/selfish Sith and the light/selfless Jedi Order: The Force fell out of balance, and the galaxy fell deeper into conflict.
  3. The Sith and Jedi Order were in conflict for several millennia.
  4. The Sith fell into "extinction" (hiding) and the Jedi Order grew for 1000 years.
  5. Unopposed, the Jedi Order never brought balance to the Force during their prominence.
  6. The Sith staged a plan to take over the Old Republic & destroy the Jedi Order.
  7. The Chosen One: Anakin emerged & was trained by the Jedi Order, as the Sith rose and war spread across the galaxy.
  8. Anakin joined the Sith, became Darth Vader, and destroyed the Jedi Order thus establishing the Galactic Empire.
  9. Anakin's son Luke was trained by the last of the Jedi Order who had also trained his father – attempting to correct their own mistakes.
  10. Darth Vader betrayed and destroyed the Sith, returning to the Light and the Cosmic Force.
  11. The Force was left in a delicate Balance: Luke's Light was left matched by Snoke's Dark.
  12. The Galactic Empire fell and the New Republic was formed.
  13. Luke created a new Jedi training temple to instruct Ben & other students in the ways of the Force.
  14. The teachings of the Jedi Order didn't allow Luke to accept the Dark Side, and that pushed Ben to become Kylo Ren.
  15. Conflict again arose with the First Order against the New Republic as Kylo Ren focused on following the path of Darth Vader to power.
  16. Luke removed himself from the Force, studied the failures of the Jedi and the true nature of the Force itself to understand.
  17. Rey discovered that the Force had awoken in her, and Anakin's lightsaber called out to her, rejecting Ben.
  18. Rey studied under Luke, who trained her in why the Jedi Order needed to end. She showed him why the JEDI needed to remain.
  19. Ben kills Snoke for the selfish motivations of taking his ruling the First Order.
  20. Luke dies selflessly to save Rey & the Resistance, passing on the title and legacy of the Jedi to her.
  21. Balance now exists between both halves of The Chosen One's legacy in the Force: Vader's legacy in Ben & Anakin's in Rey.
So, the "Jedi" in some sense have always existed in some capacity. The Jedi Order were a fallen version of the Prime Jedi, and technically speaking so were the Sith in the same capacity. The Chosen One eliminated both the Jedi Order and the Sith, leaving a path by which the Jedi could once again emerge from following the will of the Force, and learning from the mistakes that both the Sith and the Jedi Order had made in straying from the path of the Prime Jedi.

The path of the Jedi's legacy returning was passed from Qui-Gon to Obi-Wan to Yoda to Anakin to Luke.

That chain is important, because Qui-Gon acting outside of the Old Republic and the duties of the Jedi Order are what brought him to Anakin. Additionally, it's why he's the Jedi who is able to appear as a Force Ghost to Obi-Wan & Yoda. He's teaching them as Luke grows to inherit his own legacy. Luke's legacy is a difficult one, because he has to embrace the Light Side of the Force to be able to stand against the Dark and they need to ensure that he doesn't fall to the same things that turned Anakin. Part of what he is learning is their failures with his father and rejecting that Vader needs to die. Luke doesn't believe that the good in him was extinguished when he fell to the Dark Side – but that's something Obi-Wan and Yoda still can't see because of their understanding of the extreme juxtapositions of the Jedi Order and Sith as ultimate expressions of Light and Dark.

Luke is ultimately right and is able to save his father from being wholly consumed by Dark Side. It was an act of love AND of hatred that destroyed Darth Sidious and ended the legacy of the Sith. Anakin becomes a Jedi again before he dies (that's why he's able to be a Force Ghost) – he isn't a member of the Jedi Order or the Sith, but rather he exists as he was always meant to as the Chosen One: he is a balance of the Light and Dark sides of the Force.
I'd have to know when the prophecy of the Chosen One was made to agree. I don't know that everything was perfect before the Sith and those Jedi who would remain as their counterparts, nor that balance was never reached before at any point afterwards for tens of thousands of years

Luke fundamentally understands the balance of the Force. He knows that one isn't lost to one path forever. However, because of his role in destroying the Sith and how he drew power from his attachments to his friends being in danger, he has a weakness when it comes to threats of the Dark Side that pushes him into acting out of fear that he's never learned to control properly (abandoning his training and running to Bespin, slicing off Vader's hand in rage when Leia's threatened). It's THAT last lingering piece of the Jedi Order that exists as an instinct that wasn't removed from his training, because it was necessary for him to be stronger in the Light and to fear the Dark in order to overcome Sidious. That ultimately causes the downfall of the Balance and pushes Ben towards Snoke.
I thnk it's unfair to call that a lingering piece of the Jedi Order he never knew. His fear of what Ben's Dark Side stand might mean is rooted in reality. He's known Vader, he's seen what the Emperor can do, he's seen what two of them did the galaxy. He has more reason to fear Ben going down that path then Jedi teachings. Brandishing your lightsaber against a sleeping defenseless victim speaks to me of a lack of Jedi training, which is exactly what we know Luke to possess.

However, Luke does the right thing. He doesn't form a counter-force to stop Snoke and Kylo Ren. That's what the Jedi Order would have done. Instead, he recognizes the faults in the Jedi teachings as being his own. He removes himself from the Force because he knows that the Light will reemerge, and studies the history of the Jedi. Now – that takes a toll on Luke, because he has to accept his failures and he sees the failures of the Jedi Order and of himself as TRUTH of the the legacy he has made as a Legend. When Rey arrives, he finally learns to pass on the thing that Obi-Wan, Yoda, & Anakin all passed on to him: failure. He teaches Rey the weaknesses of the Jedi Order and of himself, so that she is able to rise above them. It's understanding that that allows him to embrace the Force again, and become a Legend that is MORE than his own failures. He's passed on the legacy of the Jedi to Rey so that they can grow beyond their failures and not be defeated by them. The Jedi can survive and improve.
Luke not forming a counter-force meant the death of trillions he could have saved. It could have meant the falling of the entire galaxy to the dark side for thousand years. He didn't know someone like Rey would come around in a mere decade.

When that comes to the prophesy, it's also important. Ben is embracing Vader's legacy of destroying his Dark Side master and having the power to rule and bring peace to the galaxy. Rey's accepting Anakin's legacy that's called out to and chosen her – and it's important to remember that Anakin died as a Jedi in balance in the Force – accepting the Light and Dark and saving him from dying as Darth Vader. That's why she attempts to save Ben, but he can't come to the Light Side and remain in balance. She fails by attempting to win how Luke won. If she wants to save him, she has to accept her own selfish darkness otherwise there won't be selfless light that he can accept. Ben is Vader's son, but Rey is just as much Luke's daughter since he passed his legacy off to her, and she is the other half of Anakin's legacy and balance in the Force. That's even more obvious in the confrontation. Rey is now holding on to Anakin's legacy – his lightsaber, but Ben still wants it, too. She retains it, but now it's split in half, like the Force. How do you put it back together into something new that's also a representation of what came before? You take what's broken, and you honor what came before, but you make it your own.
Ben is making war on the galaxy and Rey is her own person, not at fault for Ben refusing to let himself be redeemed by not being selfish enough.

Oh, I'm not ONLY basing this on the mosaic image of the Prime Jedi in the first Jedi temple (who's sitting in a state of meditation and balance as described in the Visual Dictionary for The Last Jedi). The Mortis Gods describe the two halves of the force that Daughter and Son represent as being that which is selfiless and that which is selfish, while the Father describes himself as a Force wielder who keeps them in balance. The Bendu even calls the sides of the Force by name as the Ashla (light) and Bogan (dark), and describes himself as the one in the middle. Every depiction of practitioners of the ancient Force all depict those beings maintaining balance. Every ancient being who speaks to the Jedi talks to them somewhat like children who don't really understand what they're talking about. There's plenty of basis in the core Star Wars media to understand what the original Jedi Order was built on, even if we don't yet know the specifics
The Mortis Gods aren't Jedis, they don't have to be Jedis and I feel likewise the Jedi don't have to be like them. Ben (Kenobi) for all his wisdom did not have all the answers for Luke, nor did Yoda for all his centuries, Luke despite being the victorious hero of the Galactic War, did not have all the answers for Rey, nor did the Jedi Order have all the answers for Anakin (a rather extreme case but it was a rather extreme case, they knew training Anakin was a bad idea but the prophecy and Obi-Wan didn't leave them a lot of choice in the matter, if it were another fearfilled nine year old, they would have send him back to his family where he belongs). I'm fine with that, the idea that the Balance Jedi, the Mortis Gods or the Whills do have all the answers that are the only right answers and way to be for every Force-User in existence I don't find very Star Wars, that's just me. Yoda could still laugh and enjoy the simple things in live after nine hundred years, his answers worked for him. Like you say in a previous paragraph, Rey needs to make what comes next her own, not because these bunch of old dead guys were soooo right as opposed to the old dead guy she had the misfortune of training under. And there'll be force-users after her that her ways won't suit either.

See my earlier comment about why the Jedi are ultimately a religious institution and tying them to a governmental body is fundamentally unnecessary and ultimately probably a bad idea.
Only if peacekeeping and maintaining justice was a bad idea to embark upon in the first place. societies do inevitably form some structure, and making peace within them inevitably involves having some approval of some of those structures.

There's a VERY important distinction about that when it comes to the Emperor. We know for certain that Sidious has twisted the truth to a particular perspective (he is a career politician after all). That being said, as someone who legitimately was a VERY successful politician, he also understands that there is a MONUMENTALLY dangerous difference between manipulating the truth and outright lying. I can't think of even a single example of Palpatine/Sidious outright lying about ANYTHING.
Sidious says only one has found the way to save one loved ones from dying and that together in time, Anakin and Sidious can find it as well. Now either he was lying about that being Plagueis, lying about there only being one or latter or lying about his news of Padme's death.

Always telling a version of the truth from a particular perspective is how he maintains his control, so something that's just blatantly untrue is dangerous to him. Especially with Vader as his apprentice, lying about the powers he'd be able to teach him is something he'd have no reason to do, because it'd be FAR more likely to turn Vader against him – something that Sith always need to be mindful of.
He stonecold tells Anakin he doesn't need guidance. He then becomes his master. He didn't believe it, he didn't want Anakin to believe for any great amount of time. He just fed him the lie he needed to hear to set him against the Jedi in that one moment.

On top of that, Sidious is THE Dark Lord of the Sith, and as such is the most knowledgable and powerful Dark Side user ever. Sidious is digging into things that are VASTLY more complex and dangerous in the Force than saving someone. On top of that as I showed before, there are NUMEROUS examples of far less trained practicioners of the Dark Side being capable of doing saving themselves from what should be fatal injuries – the most significant that being Maul, since he was Sidious' apprentice. We also see Mother Talzin using Dark Side magic to restore Maul's health and strength. There are MORE than enough indications that the ability to save a loved one is a power that the Dark Side of the Force can enable one to do, and Sidious is far, FAR more capable than any of them.
They experience here and there but they don't master the art of it. To master saving people from dying naturally involves experimentation on the dying and assembling a sizable testbatch of people that are dying in the first place, and if you are right of the true reason for Padme's death, it involves toying with the degrees of lifeforce that can be drained from the healthy. It is practice that can have useful benefits when mastered sure, but the Jedi shouldn't be frowned for not wanting to try and get to that point over the piles of bodies Plagues and/or Sidious undoubtedly did.
 
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X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
You've been talking this whole time about the need to in equal parts use the Force selfishly and selflessly.
Yeah, but let me show you how absurd what you suggested sounds in an everyday context: You're suggesting that the way for a group of people to ensure that they achieve a sustainable balance between violence and non-violence would be to make sure that you always punch someone and hug someone ever day. That is absolutely, laughably absurd.

Balance is, "Don't be too selfless or too selfish." which is really just, "Make sure that you take care of the needs of others and not just yourself, but don't do so to the point that it's overly at your own expense." You do realize that most normal people are generally a balanced mix of being altruistic and opportunistic, yeah? It's creation of the extreme dichotomy between of the Jedi & Sith that made both of them crazy and rigidly dogmatic.

Balance in the Force is like a balance in temperature – it requires regulation and an ability to adjust things contextually that will push and pull as they fluctuate naturally. Here's a very plain metaphor of Star Wars using temperature:

There is a closed system and people find that they possess a supernatural ability to control temperature. They create a group to teach others who have that ability how to control temperature. Fast forward several thousand years: Now everyone is divided into two sects: One group now only cools things down (which they still call "controlling temperature"). The other group only heats things up (called using the hot side). The group that used the hot side disappeared for 1000 years. During that time, there were huge numbers of "temperature controllers" and things seemed nice and cool, but they only ever got colder. Everything continually slowed down, some things froze, and eventually some things burned where they couldn't get to because they froze themselves in place. It got harder to do things well, and eventually when the Hot Side sect returned, the people embraced the. The "temperature controllers" were melted completely. Then, things started to catch fire and it threatened to burn down everything, so the Hot Side sect was extinguished. Now there was an equilibrium again. It became easy to see "temperature" wasn't just hot or cold. Cooling things down wasn't always good, and heating things up wasn't always evil. Also, if the Temperature Controllers still embraced only one side of changing the temperature – eventually the other side is going to have come around to work AGAINST what they'd done to keep everything livable. The ONLY possible answer was to learn to use both safely. It's not the answer because that was what people used to do, it's the answer because that it fundamentally the core mechanic of how temperature regulation functions.

So no – You don't have to make sure to freeze something and burn something else every single day. That's patently ridiculous, and completely misunderstands the core concept of what a natural balance is.


There's no need for everyone that uses the Force to be a Jedi, or for the Jedi to always be like those for who their path doesn't work.
This is to my above point. Being a Jedi should be about your devotion to learning about the Force. If you care about learning to use the Force, you should be taught to understand how to safely use and how not to abuse that power – which means understanding maintaining the balance by listening to the will of the Force. The Jedi are supposed to be there to train people in the ways of the Force, so that they can use those powers to make the galaxy a better place, and ensure that the Force isn't thrown into disharmony.

If Jedi stay on their own world then they abandon trillions of people on other words to suffering on their own devices. Why is it okay for these new Jedi to do the best they can in their immediate vicinity but the old Jedi Order is condemned for having a reach that proved itself limited in anyway by the practical reality of living in a big galaxy populated by a very diverse number of species?
Again, you're completely misinterpreting what I said to the point of absurdity.

The Jedi don't HAVE to leave their homeworld, family, and attachments any more because attachments to those things aren't forbidden. Like what Ezra did, they CAN stay on their homeworld if it's in need of help, regardless of what government it's a part of, OR they COULD travel elsewhere in the galaxy to assist there instead. They can use all of their passion and attachments – things that the Jedi Order forbid – in order to be a larger benefit to the galaxy.

Like I said, follow the concept of the Jedi as a religion (as they're described as being in A New Hope since they meditate and study a massive invisible cosmically powerful force). They can basically exist anywhere. If there's a temple that happens to be located on your homeworld, you can stay and learn the ways of that religion there, if not, you could travel to where one is. Then, once you're a member of that religion, you could stay there and assist people, you could return to your homeworld and help people there, you could even be a wanderer.

I'd have to know when the prophecy of the Chosen One was made to agree. I don't know that everything was perfect before the Sith and those Jedi who would remain as their counterparts, nor that balance was never reached before at any point afterwards for tens of thousands of years
Again, what's with this weirdly extreme interpretation of everything?

No one is claiming that the galaxy was perfect back then. Nothing magically becomes a utopia when the Force is in balance. That just means that the natural cycle of the energy flowing through and binding everything in the universe together is functioning smoothly. Also, before splitting into the Jedi and the Sith, the Prime Jedi studied to maintain balance of the Force within themselves. On top of that, both of the ancient Force users we've met – the Father and the Bendu – maintain balance in the Force and understand the deeper functional concepts of the Force itself.

So, given the evidence of what the stories have actually provided, what makes you doubt that the Force was in balance before the Jedi & Sith split?

I thnk it's unfair to call that a lingering piece of the Jedi Order he never knew. His fear of what Ben's Dark Side stand might mean is rooted in reality. He's known Vader, he's seen what the Emperor can do, he's seen what two of them did the galaxy. He has more reason to fear Ben going down that path then Jedi teachings. Brandishing your lightsaber against a sleeping defenseless victim speaks to me of a lack of Jedi training, which is exactly what we know Luke to possess.
Yes, but he ALSO knows that you can come back from the Dark Side, and it's not a one-way trip, it's something you can overcome and control.

Luke says several things about Ben in The Last Jedi that provide important conext:

  1. "I've seen this raw strength only once before, in Ben Solo. It didn't scare me enough then... It does now."
  2. "By the time I realized I was no match for the darkness rising in him, it was too late. I went to confront him, and he turned on me. He must've thought I was dead. When I came to, the temple was burning. He had vanished with a handful of my students, and slaughtered the rest. Leia blamed Snoke, but...it was me. I failed. Because I was Luke Skywalker. Jedi Master. A legend."
  3. "I saw darkness. I sensed it building in him. I'd seen it in moments during his training. But then I looked inside, and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction, pain, death, and the end of everything I love because of what he will become. And for the briefest moment of pure instinct, I thought I could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow. And I was left with shame and with consequence. And the last thing I saw were the eyes of a frightened boy whose Master had failed him."

So from that, Luke expresses that he learned several things in a particular order.
  1. He was no match for the raw strength in the Force that Ben possessed.
  2. Luke wasn't initially afraid of that power, but he came to be when he saw that power as a darkness that he was no match for.
  3. He'd sensed the darkness during their training, but it was his FEAR of that power in the darkness that makes him look inside Ben while he's asleep, rather than addressing it with him directly.
  4. Luke sees a vision of the death and end of everything he loves, and instinctively lashes out to attempt to destroy it.
Luke ignites his lightsaber while Ben is asleep, because that was the one moment that he has a chance to destroy a darkness that he was no match for – His ONLY chance was while Ben can't fight back. He reacted automatically to that vision of his loved ones dying, because of how he doesn't instinctually know how to control the rage he experiences when there are threats to things he cares about – because it's something the Jedi Order never taught him. They only taught him to give up those things (Yoda tells him not leave to save Han & Leia, and Obi-Wan says that if he can't kill Vader than the Emperor has already won). However, he managed to save Han, Leia, and his Father by clinging to those attachments and not giving them up.

The Jedi rejecting attachments means he was never taught how to control his emotions about them – Not knowing how to control that is almost what caused him to kill Vader when Leia was threatened – like the Emperor wanted. However, overcoming that moment on his own, and holding to his attachment to his father if how he'd saved Anakin rather than killing Vader, and the Emperor & Sith had been defeated. The core defining story of Luke's legend there all centers around the weaknesses that the Jedi Order's teachings left him with. That's WHY he detaches himself from the Force in order to allow the Jedi to die out – He knows that it's he's incapable of ignoring that calling if he feels it, and he can always feel Han & Leia in the Force. He's leaving the Force to bring back balance without those parts of the Jedi living on and bringing back the Dark side.


Luke not forming a counter-force meant the death of trillions he could have saved. It could have meant the falling of the entire galaxy to the dark side for thousand years. He didn't know someone like Rey would come around in a mere decade.
What ever makes you think he could have saved them? Luke's very clearly stated that he's no match for Ben. If he went up against Ben AND Snoke – he would most certainly die. Luke's death at the hands of Kylo Ren would DEVASTATE that spark of hope in the galaxy that he once brought to it.
His actions had already pushed Ben to the dark and set that course in motion, and doing more would've made it catastrophically worse.

You know how we know that? Luke embracing the light and coming to defeat them was quite literally Snoke's ENTIRE PLAN:
  1. "Skywalker lives! The seed of the Jedi Order lives! As long as he does...hope lives in the galaxy. I thought you [Kylo Ren] would be the one to snuff it out."
  2. "I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger, his equal in the light would rise. Skywalker... I assumed."
  3. "You have the spirit of a true Jedi! And because of that...you must die. My worthy apprentice, son of darkness, heir apparent to Lord Vader. Where there was conflict, I now sense resolve; Where there was weakness, strength. Complete your training, and fulfill your destiny."
Luke doesn't fall for that trap, because he understands the bigger picture: BALANCE. His actions had triggered Ben to be pushed to the Dark Side, and pushing harder against that Darkness just solidifies the conflict. By the same token, he's not powerful enough to defeat them, and his death at their hands plunges the galaxy back into rule of darkness, and kills hope along with it. EITHER of those happening is re-creating the cycle of the Jedi and Sith all over again, and triggering untold millennia of war and no chance of peace. It would mean the destruction of everything that Anakin brought about by creating the balance.

So no: He removes himself from the picture completely. That removes him passing on more teachings of the Jedi, that triggered the conflict. It als prevents the First Order from using his death to increase their own power. By trusting in the will of the Force, everything we see happens: the Force awakens in Rey and she becomes Ben's balance. She seeks out Luke and restores his faith in the idea of the Jedi as a Legend. Rey joins with Ben and ensures that Snoke is destroyed. Luke stands against the First Order, saves the Resistance, and becomes an unkillable legend that spreads throughout the galaxy – reigniting the hope that his death was meant to snuff out.

Ben is making war on the galaxy and Rey is her own person, not at fault for Ben refusing to let himself be redeemed by not being selfish enough.
I literally do not understand what that sentence means as a response to what I said.

The Mortis Gods aren't Jedis, they don't have to be Jedis and I feel likewise the Jedi don't have to be like them. Ben (Kenobi) for all his wisdom did not have all the answers for Luke, nor did Yoda for all his centuries, Luke despite being the victorious hero of the Galactic War, did not have all the answers for Rey, nor did the Jedi Order have all the answers for Anakin (a rather extreme case but it was a rather extreme case, they knew training Anakin was a bad idea but the prophecy and Obi-Wan didn't leave them a lot of choice in the matter, if it were another fearfilled nine year old, they would have send him back to his family where he belongs). I'm fine with that, the idea that the Balance Jedi, the Mortis Gods or the Whills do have all the answers that are the only right answers and way to be for every Force-User in existence I don't find very Star Wars, that's just me. Yoda could still laugh and enjoy the simple things in live after nine hundred years, his answers worked for him. Like you say in a previous paragraph, Rey needs to make what comes next her own, not because these bunch of old dead guys were soooo right as opposed to the old dead guy she had the misfortune of training under. And there'll be force-users after her that her ways won't suit either.
What are you even saying? The Mortis Gods are Force Users so powerful that the Father literally removed them from the temporal universe, so that they don't tear it apart with their power. They're placed within a location where the entire Force of the galaxy flows through that space and is magnified. That's why what happens there is an echo of everything that happens with the Force throughout all 6 Star Wars films. The prophesy of the Chosen One was originally for Anakin to take Father's place to maintain balance in the Force, but he maintained balance in the Force by bringing about the destruction of the Light and Dark there completely – and thus doing the same in the galaxy.

The prophesy of the Chosen One bringing balance to the Force, and everything about the Mortis gods are both George Lucas' direct creations explaining what the Force is, and how it works within the framework of the universe. It's literally the very core concept of ALL OF STAR WARS. To be clear on just how VERY IMPORTANT that is to the entirety of Star Wars, there was originally a scene for Ghosts of Mortis that had Darth Revan & Darth Bane appearing to the Son. It was removed, because as interesting as it was, the Sith can't exist as Force Ghosts, so George removed it because, "'I thought it would be good and wanted to do it, but it didn't jive with my bigger explanation of the Force.'" That's used by Dave Filoni to explicity explain, "it gives you an insight into the detail to which [George Lucas] got into the issues with the Force and the concepts of the bigger spiritual aspect of Star Wars." It's literally impossible to overstate how careful, intentional, and meticulous everyone on the Lucasfilms storygroup are with the writers when it comes to that stuff.

This has always been about the Chosen One destroying the groups who taught that Light and Dark were things at all. They're not actual parts of the Force, and that's why Clone Wars and Rebels blur the lines of good and evil when it comes to selfish and selfless motives. The destruction of the Sith AND the Jedi was about forcibly eschewing the polarizing dogmas of the groups that had pushed the Force out of balance by using some of it and forbidding the rest of it. The balance has always been about the Jedi finally coming to an understanding of the literal mechanics of how the Force works and affects everything the galaxy, in order to reach balance. That's why the Father and the Bendu are in complete balance between light and dark: they use The Force – and The Force is always all of those things together.

To quote Luke: "It's the energy between all things, a tension, a balance that binds the universe together."

Life, death and decay, that feeds new life.
Warmth. Cold.
Peace. Violence.
And between it all?
Balance and energy – a Force.
And inside you? – That same Force.


The Force IS the Balance. The ability to control The Force is the ability to shift the energy balance between things. Light and Dark are an expression of two methods of control – they're not a part of The Force. If you only control ONE PART of the Force – you're constantly pulling things out of balance. That's just the fundamental mechanics of how it's designed, because The Force literally flows through EVERYTHING. What Force users do and how they do it affects EVERYTHING.

That's why the balance is the way to use the Force, and why that's what the Jedi are meant to represent. They can study plenty of different ways to use the Force, and things that can be done with the Force, but you cannot utterly reject parts of it, because that will cause the Force itself to indiscriminately push against that until it returns to being balanced.

Only if peacekeeping and maintaining justice was a bad idea to embark upon in the first place. societies do inevitably form some structure, and making peace within them inevitably involves having some approval of some of those structures.
Please see where I addressed the Jedi as a religion again, because you seem to have missed the point. Also, the concept of the Force itself being kept in balance also prevents conflict from arising because of how the Force connects to everything.

Sidious says only one has found the way to save one loved ones from dying and that together in time, Anakin and Sidious can find it as well. Now either he was lying about that being Plagueis, lying about there only being one or latter or lying about his news of Padme's death.
"To cheat death is the power only one has achieved, but if we work together, I know we can discover the secret."

You missed the most important part because you paraphrased. Look at the wording carefully. "Cheating death" and "saving someone from dying" are very, VERY different things. Cheating death isn't the same as keeping someone alive. Sidious is using Anakin's interest and is very carefully offering him something different than Anakin thinks he is. Also, for reference about what carefully crafted phrase is likely referring to: Qui-Gon was the first and only individual at this point in time to have "cheated death." It's possible that Sidious became aware of someone cheating death, especially since Yoda's journey involved visiting the Sith world of Moraband and the Dark Side Cave.


He stonecold tells Anakin he doesn't need guidance. He then becomes his master. He didn't believe it, he didn't want Anakin to believe for any great amount of time. He just fed him the lie he needed to hear to set him against the Jedi in that one moment.
Again, you're missing specifics of context because you're paraphrasing. Here's the quote:

"You don't need guidance, Anakin. In time, you will learn to trust your feelings. Then, you will be invincible. I have said it many times, you are the most gifted Jedi I have ever met."

He's specifically telling Anakin to trust his own feelings and power over the direction of the Jedi, to give Anakin the impression that those abilities should get him whatever he wants. Yes, Anakin was referring to Palpatine's guidance getting him an assignment, but Palpatine is twisting that message to mentally set Anakin on a specific path with reference towards how Anakin views his own place among the Jedi. He's planting seeds of doubt when it comes to the path of the Jedi, so that he can leverage that later, because that mindset of trusting his feelings and power and feeling like he doesn't need guidance from the Jedi is EXACTLY what he'll use to manipulate Anakin away from and against the Jedi.

Sidious doesn't outright lie.

They experience here and there but they don't master the art of it. To master saving people from dying naturally involves experimentation on the dying and assembling a sizable testbatch of people that are dying in the first place, and if you are right of the true reason for Padme's death, it involves toying with the degrees of lifeforce that can be drained from the healthy. It is practice that can have useful benefits when mastered sure, but the Jedi shouldn't be frowned for not wanting to try and get to that point over the piles of bodies Plagues and/or Sidious undoubtedly did.
I mean... the Nightsisters did TONS of experimentation on their own kind to get as good as they were at it, too. Nothing about what they do wouldn't be considered a mastered art. Additionally, while it's one of the last books that left in Legends Canon, it was Plagueis who had triggered Shmi's immaculate conception of Anakin. The specifics of his character haven't been explored in current canon.

Also, the Jedi Order would have looked at a different approach, because of their focus on selflessness. (Note: this is not the act of keeping someone from dying, or creating life that Sidious refers to). The only person we EVER see getting brought back to life from being stone cold dead is Ahsoka, and the Daughter uses her own dying spirit to bring Ahsoka back – and that creates her connection with Morai that hasn't been fully explored yet.

Lastly, if you want to look at this in context to the balance and the Jedi using the Force and not just a part of it – you DO realize that there's a way to learn how to treat injuries on a small scale that would allow them to learn those techniques in non-sinister ways that also don't involve piling up a ton of bodies, right? That's intentionally misunderstanding how the core concept of medicine and treatment works. You learn how to help heal cuts before you dive in to open-heart surgery. There're obvious humane ways to learn how to heal people with medicine, and those same things can be applied to learning to heal people with cosmic space fantasy powers.



X :neo:
 

Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
Yeah, but let me show you how absurd what you suggested sounds in an everyday context: You're suggesting that the way for a group of people to ensure that they achieve a sustainable balance between violence and non-violence would be to make sure that you always punch someone and hug someone ever day. That is absolutely, laughably absurd.

Balance is, "Don't be too selfless or too selfish." which is really just, "Make sure that you take care of the needs of others and not just yourself, but don't do so to the point that it's overly at your own expense." You do realize that most normal people are generally a balanced mix of being altruistic and opportunistic, yeah? It's creation of the extreme dichotomy between of the Jedi & Sith that made both of them crazy and rigidly dogmatic.
The Jedi Order lives in a relative lap luxury on Coruscant. They are not crazy incapable of doing things for themselves. They don't use the Force for selfish ends.

Balance in the Force is like a balance in temperature – it requires regulation and an ability to adjust things contextually that will push and pull as they fluctuate naturally. Here's a very plain metaphor of Star Wars using temperature:

There is a closed system and people find that they possess a supernatural ability to control temperature. They create a group to teach others who have that ability how to control temperature. Fast forward several thousand years: Now everyone is divided into two sects: One group now only cools things down (which they still call "controlling temperature"). The other group only heats things up (called using the hot side). The group that used the hot side disappeared for 1000 years. During that time, there were huge numbers of "temperature controllers" and things seemed nice and cool, but they only ever got colder. Everything continually slowed down, some things froze, and eventually some things burned where they couldn't get to because they froze themselves in place. It got harder to do things well, and eventually when the Hot Side sect returned, the people embraced the. The "temperature controllers" were melted completely. Then, things started to catch fire and it threatened to burn down everything, so the Hot Side sect was extinguished. Now there was an equilibrium again. It became easy to see "temperature" wasn't just hot or cold. Cooling things down wasn't always good, and heating things up wasn't always evil. Also, if the Temperature Controllers still embraced only one side of changing the temperature – eventually the other side is going to have come around to work AGAINST what they'd done to keep everything livable. The ONLY possible answer was to learn to use both safely. It's not the answer because that was what people used to do, it's the answer because that it fundamentally the core mechanic of how temperature regulation functions.

So no – You don't have to make sure to freeze something and burn something else every single day. That's patently ridiculous, and completely misunderstands the core concept of what a natural balance is.
I never said freeze or burn anything. I'm talking about using the Force to do selfish things. If you always make sure never to let it be at the expense of someone else before doing something for one's self then it's not selfish and certainly not at all the Dark Side. You've coolly and rationally thought it through and decided this is morally okay and will not have negative reprecussions. Using the Dark Side, letting your emotions guide your actions before anything else, means inheritely caring less if your actions might logically lead to injustices. Rey's one girl, maybe she can get away with it but if you teach such a practice to tens of thousands of superpowered individuals, you're gonna see some problems.

This is to my above point. Being a Jedi should be about your devotion to learning about the Force. If you care about learning to use the Force, you should be taught to understand how to safely use and how not to abuse that power – which means understanding maintaining the balance by listening to the will of the Force. The Jedi are supposed to be there to train people in the ways of the Force, so that they can use those powers to make the galaxy a better place, and ensure that the Force isn't thrown into disharmony.
People that have had bad experiences and might not agree with Jedi training exist, no matter what form you imagine Jedi training taking. Making the galaxy a better place is always gonna involve not training everyone.



Again, you're completely misinterpreting what I said to the point of absurdity.

The Jedi don't HAVE to leave their homeworld, family, and attachments any more because attachments to those things aren't forbidden. Like what Ezra did, they CAN stay on their homeworld if it's in need of help, regardless of what government it's a part of, OR they COULD travel elsewhere in the galaxy to assist there instead. They can use all of their passion and attachments – things that the Jedi Order forbid – in order to be a larger benefit to the galaxy.
Or not, because those families and people of their homeworld aren't always gonna have agendas that agree with the Jedi and your new Jedi never neccesarily learn to the prioritise the goal of making the galaxy a better place because they never leave their families to train in the first place. Except now they are superpowered.

Like I said, follow the concept of the Jedi as a religion (as they're described as being in A New Hope since they meditate and study a massive invisible cosmically powerful force). They can basically exist anywhere. If there's a temple that happens to be located on your homeworld, you can stay and learn the ways of that religion there, if not, you could travel to where one is. Then, once you're a member of that religion, you could stay there and assist people, you could return to your homeworld and help people there, you could even be a wanderer.
Or cause wars because not every culture like new religions getting established in their mids. With the Republic and a centralised temple you can train with some peace and security by thanks to laws exist that protect Jedi.

Again, what's with this weirdly extreme interpretation of everything?

No one is claiming that the galaxy was perfect back then. Nothing magically becomes a utopia when the Force is in balance. That just means that the natural cycle of the energy flowing through and binding everything in the universe together is functioning smoothly. Also, before splitting into the Jedi and the Sith, the Prime Jedi studied to maintain balance of the Force within themselves. On top of that, both of the ancient Force users we've met – the Father and the Bendu – maintain balance in the Force and understand the deeper functional concepts of the Force itself.

So, given the evidence of what the stories have actually provided, what makes you doubt that the Force was in balance before the Jedi & Sith split?
The Sith exist, so I naturally assume some original Jedi encountered problems in the smoothly running universe they couldn't deal with just by going with the teachings the Jedi had to offer. Maybe it was a fast process, maybe it happened over a period of centuries, maybe the first to call themselves Sith used what was always there, maybe the Sith took a page out of the book of earlier Dark Side sects. All I'm saying is I don't know and you don't know. We haven't seen the Prime Jedi at work.

Yes, but he ALSO knows that you can come back from the Dark Side, and it's not a one-way trip, it's something you can overcome and control.
He knows the former, I do not know that he knows the latter. Luke certainly doesn't control the Dark Side and his father only overcame for a few minutes.

Luke says several things about Ben in The Last Jedi that provide important conext:

  1. "I've seen this raw strength only once before, in Ben Solo. It didn't scare me enough then... It does now."
  2. "By the time I realized I was no match for the darkness rising in him, it was too late. I went to confront him, and he turned on me. He must've thought I was dead. When I came to, the temple was burning. He had vanished with a handful of my students, and slaughtered the rest. Leia blamed Snoke, but...it was me. I failed. Because I was Luke Skywalker. Jedi Master. A legend."
  3. "I saw darkness. I sensed it building in him. I'd seen it in moments during his training. But then I looked inside, and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction, pain, death, and the end of everything I love because of what he will become. And for the briefest moment of pure instinct, I thought I could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow. And I was left with shame and with consequence. And the last thing I saw were the eyes of a frightened boy whose Master had failed him."

So from that, Luke expresses that he learned several things in a particular order.
  1. He was no match for the raw strength in the Force that Ben possessed.
  2. Luke wasn't initially afraid of that power, but he came to be when he saw that power as a darkness that he was no match for.
  3. He'd sensed the darkness during their training, but it was his FEAR of that power in the darkness that makes him look inside Ben while he's asleep, rather than addressing it with him directly.
  4. Luke sees a vision of the death and end of everything he loves, and instinctively lashes out to attempt to destroy it.
Luke ignites his lightsaber while Ben is asleep, because that was the one moment that he has a chance to destroy a darkness that he was no match for – His ONLY chance was while Ben can't fight back. He reacted automatically to that vision of his loved ones dying, because of how he doesn't instinctually know how to control the rage he experiences when there are threats to things he cares about – because it's something the Jedi Order never taught him. They only taught him to give up those things (Yoda tells him not leave to save Han & Leia, and Obi-Wan says that if he can't kill Vader than the Emperor has already won). However, he managed to save Han, Leia, and his Father by clinging to those attachments and not giving them up.
He experiences rage because he's allowed himself to be a very emotional being in the first place. Luke refused the Jedi way in this regard and was left with attachments that can easily be threatened in a forever chaotic universe and accepted all the associated risks. Yeah, he saved his friends and his Jedi master died by the time he came back from saving those friends, it's not the Jedi Master's fault he doesn't know how to deal with further threats to those friends given that he got in this situation by not listening in the first place.

The Jedi rejecting attachments means he was never taught how to control his emotions about them – Not knowing how to control that is almost what caused him to kill Vader when Leia was threatened – like the Emperor wanted. However, overcoming that moment on his own, and holding to his attachment to his father if how he'd saved Anakin rather than killing Vader, and the Emperor & Sith had been defeated. The core defining story of Luke's legend there all centers around the weaknesses that the Jedi Order's teachings left him with. That's WHY he detaches himself from the Force in order to allow the Jedi to die out – He knows that it's he's incapable of ignoring that calling if he feels it, and he can always feel Han & Leia in the Force. He's leaving the Force to bring back balance without those parts of the Jedi living on and bringing back the Dark side.
Force-sensitive people in addition to Ben Solo will still exist despite Luke's death and they won't get trained and they will have loved ones that get threatened too, and they'll react, with fear and other emotions. How is that balance?

What ever makes you think he could have saved them? Luke's very clearly stated that he's no match for Ben. If he went up against Ben AND Snoke – he would most certainly die. Luke's death at the hands of Kylo Ren would DEVASTATE that spark of hope in the galaxy that he once brought to it.
His actions had already pushed Ben to the dark and set that course in motion, and doing more would've made it catastrophically worse.

You know how we know that? Luke embracing the light and coming to defeat them was quite literally Snoke's ENTIRE PLAN:
  1. "Skywalker lives! The seed of the Jedi Order lives! As long as he does...hope lives in the galaxy. I thought you [Kylo Ren] would be the one to snuff it out."
  2. "I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger, his equal in the light would rise. Skywalker... I assumed."
  3. "You have the spirit of a true Jedi! And because of that...you must die. My worthy apprentice, son of darkness, heir apparent to Lord Vader. Where there was conflict, I now sense resolve; Where there was weakness, strength. Complete your training, and fulfill your destiny."
Luke doesn't fall for that trap, because he understands the bigger picture: BALANCE. His actions had triggered Ben to be pushed to the Dark Side, and pushing harder against that Darkness just solidifies the conflict. By the same token, he's not powerful enough to defeat them, and his death at their hands plunges the galaxy back into rule of darkness, and kills hope along with it. EITHER of those happening is re-creating the cycle of the Jedi and Sith all over again, and triggering untold millennia of war and no chance of peace. It would mean the destruction of everything that Anakin brought about by creating the balance.

So no: He removes himself from the picture completely. That removes him passing on more teachings of the Jedi, that triggered the conflict. It als prevents the First Order from using his death to increase their own power. By trusting in the will of the Force, everything we see happens: the Force awakens in Rey and she becomes Ben's balance. She seeks out Luke and restores his faith in the idea of the Jedi as a Legend. Rey joins with Ben and ensures that Snoke is destroyed. Luke stands against the First Order, saves the Resistance, and becomes an unkillable legend that spreads throughout the galaxy – reigniting the hope that his death was meant to snuff out.
You know who else isn't a match for Ben Solo and Snoke? Everyone else in the galaxy. Should they all give up too? Sure, Snoke had ideas for how to handle Luke's potential return. The answer to that problem is not, give up, let them have the galaxy to do with as they wish. Luke can fight in more ways then to walk straight up to Ben and Snoke and try to strike them both down with a lightsaber. Everyone else has to find other ways of saving the galaxy too.

I literally do not understand what that sentence means as a response to what I said.
Rey shouldn't want to save or stop Ben in order to put the Force, Anakin's lightsaber or Anakin's legacy back together, he should be stopped because he killing people and destroying and subjegating planets. and if he can't be saved without her accepting Dark Side in her own right, maybe she shouldn't try to save him.

The prophesy of the Chosen One bringing balance to the Force, and everything about the Mortis gods are both George Lucas' direct creations explaining what the Force is, and how it works within the framework of the universe. It's literally the very core concept of ALL OF STAR WARS. To be clear on just how VERY IMPORTANT that is to the entirety of Star Wars, there was originally a scene for Ghosts of Mortis that had Darth Revan & Darth Bane appearing to the Son. It was removed, because as interesting as it was, the Sith can't exist as Force Ghosts, so George removed it because, "'I thought it would be good and wanted to do it, but it didn't jive with my bigger explanation of the Force.'" That's used by Dave Filoni to explicity explain, "it gives you an insight into the detail to which [George Lucas] got into the issues with the Force and the concepts of the bigger spiritual aspect of Star Wars." It's literally impossible to overstate how careful, intentional, and meticulous everyone on the Lucasfilms storygroup are with the writers when it comes to that stuff.

This has always been about the Chosen One destroying the groups who taught that Light and Dark were things at all. They're not actual parts of the Force, and that's why Clone Wars and Rebels blur the lines of good and evil when it comes to selfish and selfless motives. The destruction of the Sith AND the Jedi was about forcibly eschewing the polarizing dogmas of the groups that had pushed the Force out of balance by using some of it and forbidding the rest of it. The balance has always been about the Jedi finally coming to an understanding of the literal mechanics of how the Force works and affects everything the galaxy, in order to reach balance. That's why the Father and the Bendu are in complete balance between light and dark: they use The Force – and The Force is always all of those things together.
The dark and light side existed for the Mortis Gods as well potentially before there were any Jedi to speak of. The Jedi and the Sith didn't create the Dark Side or it's alternative, just used the Force in ways that suited their aims and put names to it accordingly.

To quote Luke: "It's the energy between all things, a tension, a balance that binds the universe together."

Life, death and decay, that feeds new life.
Warmth. Cold.
Peace. Violence.
And between it all?
Balance and energy – a Force.
And inside you? – That same Force.


The Force IS the Balance. The ability to control The Force is the ability to shift the energy balance between things. Light and Dark are an expression of two methods of control – they're not a part of The Force. If you only control ONE PART of the Force – you're constantly pulling things out of balance. That's just the fundamental mechanics of how it's designed, because The Force literally flows through EVERYTHING. What Force users do and how they do it affects EVERYTHING.

That's why the balance is the way to use the Force, and why that's what the Jedi are meant to represent. They can study plenty of different ways to use the Force, and things that can be done with the Force, but you cannot utterly reject parts of it, because that will cause the Force itself to indiscriminately push against that until it returns to being balanced.
Then there can never be peace or justice as using the force in hatred (for example) is a way to use the Force nevertheless.

Also, the concept of the Force itself being kept in balance also prevents conflict from arising because of how the Force connects to everything.
If balance was what preceeded the Jedi and Sith then balance must have led to conflict at some point.

"To cheat death is the power only one has achieved, but if we work together, I know we can discover the secret."

You missed the most important part because you paraphrased. Look at the wording carefully. "Cheating death" and "saving someone from dying" are very, VERY different things. Cheating death isn't the same as keeping someone alive. Sidious is using Anakin's interest and is very carefully offering him something different than Anakin thinks he is. Also, for reference about what carefully crafted phrase is likely referring to: Qui-Gon was the first and only individual at this point in time to have "cheated death." It's possible that Sidious became aware of someone cheating death, especially since Yoda's journey involved visiting the Sith world of Moraband and the Dark Side Cave.
It's possible that's what he meant. But Sidious never wanted to truly work together with Anakin, Lucas conceived of the Sith as a master and a apprentice always trying to get rid of each other. Sidious has made numerous false promises of peace, allegiance and cooperation to many in his career as Sith and politician.


Again, you're missing specifics of context because you're paraphrasing. Here's the quote:

"You don't need guidance, Anakin. In time, you will learn to trust your feelings. Then, you will be invincible. I have said it many times, you are the most gifted Jedi I have ever met."

He's specifically telling Anakin to trust his own feelings and power over the direction of the Jedi, to give Anakin the impression that those abilities should get him whatever he wants. Yes, Anakin was referring to Palpatine's guidance getting him an assignment, but Palpatine is twisting that message to mentally set Anakin on a specific path with reference towards how Anakin views his own place among the Jedi. He's planting seeds of doubt when it comes to the path of the Jedi, so that he can leverage that later, because that mindset of trusting his feelings and power and feeling like he doesn't need guidance from the Jedi is EXACTLY what he'll use to manipulate Anakin away from and against the Jedi.

Sidious doesn't outright lie.
Anakin does need guidance both the instance and in general sense. Nor does Sidious want for Anakin to be invincible by trusting his feelings. Anakin trusted his feelings on Mustafar in the face of everything, it made him anything but invincible.

I mean... the Nightsisters did TONS of experimentation on their own kind to get as good as they were at it, too. Nothing about what they do wouldn't be considered a mastered art. Additionally, while it's one of the last books that left in Legends Canon, it was Plagueis who had triggered Shmi's immaculate conception of Anakin. The specifics of his character haven't been explored in current canon.
And the Nightsisters have a very unequal culture. I don't think they should be wiped out for being force culture that doesn't really seek balance but I wouldn't call them a example to follow.

Also, the Jedi Order would have looked at a different approach, because of their focus on selflessness. (Note: this is not the act of keeping someone from dying, or creating life that Sidious refers to). The only person we EVER see getting brought back to life from being stone cold dead is Ahsoka, and the Daughter uses her own dying spirit to bring Ahsoka back – and that creates her connection with Morai that hasn't been fully explored yet.

Lastly, if you want to look at this in context to the balance and the Jedi using the Force and not just a part of it – you DO realize that there's a way to learn how to treat injuries on a small scale that would allow them to learn those techniques in non-sinister ways that also don't involve piling up a ton of bodies, right? That's intentionally misunderstanding how the core concept of medicine and treatment works. You learn how to help heal cuts before you dive in to open-heart surgery. There're obvious humane ways to learn how to heal people with medicine, and those same things can be applied to learning to heal people with cosmic space fantasy powers.
Understanding of human anatomy was helped by examining corpses (and yeah, inhumane practices have happened in the past of this field as well). We are talking about life force. It will have to start with the experimentation on the lives of living people starting from a place of ignorance of what you are doing.
 
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@Minato Ya need to slow down when you read these posts, man. You've been heavily misinterpreting big pieces in the last few replies, and literally misreading things in this one.

The Jedi Order lives in a relative lap luxury on Coruscant. They are not crazy incapable of doing things for themselves. They don't use the Force for selfish ends.
The Jedi Order only use a PART of the Force, as a result of believing in "the extreme dichotomy between of the Jedi & Sith that made both of them crazy and rigidly dogmatic." Nowhere was the word "incapable" even used. It doesn't matter that the Jedi live in luxury at all – Having your needs met doesn't make people selfless or selfish.

I never said freeze or burn anything. I'm talking about using the Force to do selfish things. If you always make sure never to let it be at the expense of someone else before doing something for one's self then it's not selfish and certainly not at all the Dark Side. You've coolly and rationally thought it through and decided this is morally okay and will not have negative reprecussions. Using the Dark Side, letting your emotions guide your actions before anything else, means inheritely caring less if your actions might logically lead to injustices. Rey's one girl, maybe she can get away with it but if you teach such a practice to tens of thousands of superpowered individuals, you're gonna see some problems.
I never claimed you said anything about it, because my example of freezing and burning was a METAPHOR. I wrote an entire paragraph that was prefaced with the sentence, "Here's a very plain metaphor of Star Wars using temperature:" What is going on here? Re-read that and look at the point I was making about what balance is and isn't, 'cause you're still missing it completely.

In the real world, millions of people can function every day in a natural, sustainable balance of doing the things they want to do, and the things others need them to do.

People that have had bad experiences and might not agree with Jedi training exist, no matter what form you imagine Jedi training taking. Making the galaxy a better place is always gonna involve not training everyone.
I'm not sure what your point is here. The Jedi are always somewhere people CHOOSE to go to learn about the Force. Again, it's functionally a religion (just one with real invisible powers instead of imaginary ones), and no one is suggesting people are forced to train as Jedi.

Or not, because those families and people of their homeworld aren't always gonna have agendas that agree with the Jedi and your new Jedi never neccesarily learn to the prioritise the goal of making the galaxy a better place because they never leave their families to train in the first place. Except now they are superpowered.
Literally what are you talking about here!? NO ONE said people never leave their families to train. The Jedi Order had people give up their kids if they wanted them to train. Under the Jedi Order they didn't keep their attachments to their families, because that might lead them to the dark side. The only thing anyone said is that Rebels especially proved that those attachments aren't a path to evil, and keeping the Force in balance means that Jedi wouldn't give those things up anymore, because attachments aren't rigidly forbidden – because the Jedi would actually use the Force and not just a small section of it that they personally decided is the only true path.

Or cause wars because not every culture like new religions getting established in their mids. With the Republic and a centralised temple you can train with some peace and security by thanks to laws exist that protect Jedi.
The Jedi religion is well over 6000 years old, and is literally called called "that ancient religion" in A New Hope. Also, there's a group called the Church of the Force that still exists throughout the Galaxy. The Jedi would be able to initially establish themselves where those religious views are accepted and continue to spread wherever they can do good as they grow, and become accepted more places. There's literally no indication that doing that would start a war, especially if the Jedi's role is explicitly to avoid doing that. Remember, "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never attack." That's the exact thing that Luke did to overcome the First Order. You know how they ensure they continue to do that? – They learn control. You know how WOULD start wars? Untrained Force users who don't know how to control their powers. The Jedi are already the solution to that.

The Sith exist, so I naturally assume some original Jedi encountered problems in the smoothly running universe they couldn't deal with just by going with the teachings the Jedi had to offer. Maybe it was a fast process, maybe it happened over a period of centuries, maybe the first to call themselves Sith used what was always there, maybe the Sith took a page out of the book of earlier Dark Side sects. All I'm saying is I don't know and you don't know. We haven't seen the Prime Jedi at work.
It's almost like the whole theme is to learn from the failures of those who came before you so that you don't repeat them, and Rey has all of the original ancient texts of the Jedi to be able to prevent that balance from being split this time...

He knows the former, I do not know that he knows the latter. Luke certainly doesn't control the Dark Side and his father only overcame for a few minutes.
Luke definitely improved his control over his Dark Side tendencies over time, but never completely mastered it. That's how he knows it's possible. He flew into a rage when Leia was threatened and was only snapped out of it after slicing off Vader's hand and seeing parallels to himself in Vader. When it came to Ben, he instinctively flicked on his blade after seeing a vision of the destruction of everything he cared about. So yeah, he definitely understands both things.

He experiences rage because he's allowed himself to be a very emotional being in the first place. Luke refused the Jedi way in this regard and was left with attachments that can easily be threatened in a forever chaotic universe and accepted all the associated risks. Yeah, he saved his friends and his Jedi master died by the time he came back from saving those friends, it's not the Jedi Master's fault he doesn't know how to deal with further threats to those friends given that he got in this situation by not listening in the first place.
You're still missing the bigger point. Luke holding on to those attachments OVER the Jedi's teachings are what saved the galaxy. Learning from their mistakes in thinking Vader was lost, and proving that he wasn't. That's one more example of selfish love being used for good, and why the answer isn't forbid use of whole sections of your natural emotions in the Force.

Force-sensitive people in addition to Ben Solo will still exist despite Luke's death and they won't get trained and they will have loved ones that get threatened too, and they'll react, with fear and other emotions. How is that balance?
It's almost like that's why it's important for the Jedi to be able to be anywhere in the galaxy and not limited to a single governmentally controlled region of space...

You know who else isn't a match for Ben Solo and Snoke? Everyone else in the galaxy. Should they all give up too? Sure, Snoke had ideas for how to handle Luke's potential return. The answer to that problem is not, give up, let them have the galaxy to do with as they wish. Luke can fight in more ways then to walk straight up to Ben and Snoke and try to strike them both down with a lightsaber. Everyone else has to find other ways of saving the galaxy too.
Again, this isn't understanding how the Force works at all, or what Luke was doing. Luke didn't give up: He was attempting to ensure that the Force would restore balance and that that balance wouldn't be disrupted by the flaws of the Jedi. Fighting back against that side of the Force would only galvanize the conflict.

Rey shouldn't want to save or stop Ben in order to put the Force, Anakin's lightsaber or Anakin's legacy back together, he should be stopped because he killing people and destroying and subjegating planets. and if he can't be saved without her accepting Dark Side in her own right, maybe she shouldn't try to save him.
Again, this is fundamentally not understanding what makes the Jedi different from regular people. The RESISTANCE is there to stop the military sides of the conflict. The JEDI exist to stop the imbalance in the Force, and assist in securing lasting peace by maintaining that balance.

Also, you do realize that thus far, the people that Ben's been show to've killed himself were Lor-San Tekka, Han Solo, a few Resistance pilots, Snoke, & Snoke's Praetorian Guards, right? He's killed as many "bad guys" as he has "good guys" at this point. HUX was the one who ordered Starkiller base to fire on the Hosnian system under the command of Snoke, and destroyed multiple worlds – Ben was just watching it from a ship. Also, The First Order hasn't subjugated any worlds by the end of VIII either.

And again, to reiterate: The Dark Side and the Light Side aren't parts of the Force. They're ideas projected onto the Force that only cover a portion of it. Literally the ENTIRE SERIES OF FILMS is about bringing back balance to the Force.


The dark and light side existed for the Mortis Gods as well potentially before there were any Jedi to speak of. The Jedi and the Sith didn't create the Dark Side or it's alternative, just used the Force in ways that suited their aims and put names to it accordingly.
And remember: the Son does what is selfish and the Daughter does what it selfless – and Anakin destroyed both of those things in order to bring back balance, rather than maintain control over them separately. The lesson is literally to stop separating control it into two different ideological groups, and unify the Force again as the balance.

Then there can never be peace or justice as using the force in hatred (for example) is a way to use the Force nevertheless.
That's why the Jedi still have still a code of conduct that doesn't involve dividing between selfish or selfless actions: "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never attack" and why the message of The Last Jedi was, "Act to save what you love, not to destroy what you hate" – both of those things can be done selfishly OR selflessly for the good of others.


If balance was what preceeded the Jedi and Sith then balance must have led to conflict at some point.
Which is why the theme of "the greatest teacher, failure is" and Rey possessing the original Jedi texts is what happened in The Last Jedi.

It's possible that's what he meant. But Sidious never wanted to truly work together with Anakin, Lucas conceived of the Sith as a master and a apprentice always trying to get rid of each other. Sidious has made numerous false promises of peace, allegiance and cooperation to many in his career as Sith and politician.

Anakin does need guidance both the instance and in general sense. Nor does Sidious want for Anakin to be invincible by trusting his feelings. Anakin trusted his feelings on Mustafar in the face of everything, it made him anything but invincible.
Again, I've yet to see any example of anything that's an outright lie by Sidious. You've got to be able to provide one, if you think he's just making up the entire story about Plagueis out of nowhere. Also, Vader trusted in his feelings to save Luke, and as a result was able to become one with the Force as a Force Ghost. In the end – no one ever killed him and he also continued to live beyond death. It seems like Anakin learned to become invincible and to cheat death by trusting his feelings... the exact two things Sidious promised him he would learn.

And the Nightsisters have a very unequal culture. I don't think they should be wiped out for being force culture that doesn't really seek balance but I wouldn't call them a example to follow.
Is there any reason that they can't be taught balance, so that their powers aren't only one-sided?


Understanding of human anatomy was helped by examining corpses (and yeah, inhumane practices have happened in the past of this field as well). We are talking about life force. It will have to start with the experimentation on the lives of living people starting from a place of ignorance of what you are doing.
That's assuming that none of the Jedi, Sith, or other Force sensitive cultures have ever studied that or documented anything. Dathomir as an example, there's plenty of study that was done by them that could be used to understand the mechanics of how something like that could be done in the Force without resorting to just the Dark Side in order to make it safer, stronger, & more effective tool for the Jedi. Again, the whole point is that the "Dark Side" only used part of the Force, and that limits its potential. The Dark Side was never evil, only selfish. There are plenty of ways to look at both when it comes to interacting with the Living Force. Working together with those is the clear answer to removing the stigmas attached to certain powers, as well as helping keep the Force in balance.



Really though, it seems like you're just trying to see enough to respond, and not actually reading to understand. You've been completely missing HUGE chunks of things that've been clarified multiple times. It might be best to just figure out what it is you don't agree with specifically, so that I can address that, rather than quote-responding to my points that you're just skimming over.




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X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
So... I'm actually gonna bring this back up in a more broad sense as it applies to war & (galactic) politics to make the point one that more closely follows WHY that's the story that's being told in the films, and why that's the lesson chosen for movies based on WWII and reexamining things as they exist in the current socio-political climate.

This occurred to me after watching several videos about Trump and the correlations between various iterations of the rise of Fascism within different nations and time periods (watch them all if you have the time, they're quite good). There was a particular quote in one of the videos that stood out to me, and that's something worth looking at insofar as the messages that The Last Jedi serves up: "Fascism arises from a reaction to & despising of the left – when identity is focused less on what you believe, and more on what you hate."

In the rise of the Galactic Empire, this is most obvious in its rise to power and acceptance being a reaction by the majority populace growing to despise the constant ineffectiveness of the Old Republic & the Jedi, which are actually the underhanded results of a single leader rising to power working to actively discredit them. We all know some variation of George Santayana's famous quote from The Life of Reason: The Phases of Human Progress, Vol 1: Reason in Common Sense, "Those who fail to learn from the mistakes of their predecessors are destined to repeat them." Once the Empire is destroyed, it's replaced with The New Republic – a system with the same issues as what came before, where the war profiteers are still profiting and doing harm to the galaxy in places justice doesn't reach effectively. Very clearly we see that repetition taking place when The First Order rise out of the legacy of the failure of the Jedi repeated by Luke Skywalker in the creation of Kylo Ren. In The First Order's case, the conflict of Light and Dark is more focused, so there's less careful political machination and instead it takes rise through direct and overwhelming military force. As a result, we have to look more closely at the deeper underlying Force machinations that fuel the First Order: "The Dark Side arises from a reaction to and a despising of the Jedi, as the First Order's identity is focused less on what they believe, and more on what they hate."


That's it. That right there is your cut & dry, 9 film Star Wars galactic political, mythical, & spiritual plot – all laid out start to finish.


By embracing teachings that only allow Jedi to use the Light Side of the Force, they're continually creating a counter-balance as a sect that uses the Dark Side of the Force in direct opposition to them. It always creates "us" and "them" groups who are diametrically opposed to one another, and rigidly entrenched in their beliefs. As a result, that Dark Side always becomes solely defined by its unrelenting pursuit of power out of an unending hatred against the the Light, the Jedi & the Republic. That means that so long as the Jedi don't practice balance, but instead only ever focus on the Light Side of the Force – the Dark side of the Force will inevitably arise as the generation of the reemergence fascism and war within the galaxy.

Hence why the only solution to breaking the continual perpetuation of that cycle is to achieve a sustainable balance in the Force that no longer generates the rise of the Darkness as a counter to the Light – but instead – continually acts to keep both sides of the Force under control. Also by, "saving what you love, not destroying what you hate" you also have the literal counter to the very defining ideals of rising political fascism. Love winning over Fear is also the ideology that always needs to define the Jedi to keep that Force in balance, since it's literally the core message of Star Wars & the Force itself, as best summed up by Dave Filoni when talking about Season 4 of Rebels:

The Force is the core of Star Wars and you have to be careful if you answer too many questions about it. Belief in the Force itself is part of what drives it. Not everybody in the Star Wars universe believes in it, which is interesting, because its actions and abilities are on display quite often so you think “why doesn’t everybody believe in it?” What so hard about Han Solo that he doesn’t believe in the Force when the Jedi Knights weren’t so long ago as we find out in the prequels. Because it takes discipline and training and crafting and commitment and faith to believe in this thing. That it gives you power, that it flows through you, it’s in all of you, you all have it to some degree.

Fear is the root of all evil, fear destroys everything, fear makes you make decisions you would not make, fear makes you think you’re making good decisions when they’re poor decisions because you’re afraid. And if you take nothing else away from Star Wars you should make no decision out of fear.

When the Emperor stands before you and has destroyed your father and ruined your life and you’re powerless and he made you hate your father almost, and you throw him down. You must remember, at that critical point, to say “I’m going to throw my weapon away because I love the person next to me, I love my father, I love my mother, and nothing you do can destroy that. Nothing.

And you stand on your commitment, and then that inspires Anakin to help, that is what inspires the love, which is something evil does not understand. That’s the core of Star Wars and that is the power that you can’t possibly imagine if you’re evil that Obi-Wan speaks of.

So yeah. There's the solution as it exists in the flow of the Force, the reflection of the political world of the Star Wars Universe, and the core themes of the basic decisions in the films themselves when they turn out for right or wrong.





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