• Due to datamining of the demo files, substantial leaks are now everywhere. As a reminder, some of these are in-development screenshots and may point to events that aren't going to be in the final game. Some of them are clearly going to be in the game. The TLS stance is this: Any thread which will contain discussion on the leaked images/ details must clearly contain [SPOILERS] within the title. Anything within those threads does not need to be spoiler tagged. Any POST anywhere on the board containing spoilers must be spoiler tagged or it will be removed and warned. Please report this where you see it. Let's try to make sure everyone can still freely post until everyone has a chance to play this game please!

Star Wars: Episode 7, 8... and BEYOND!

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Obviously TRoS doesn't literally undo TLJ (it can't), but it does make much of it feel less significant -- like it's not trying to build on what it set down as a stepping stone so much as trying to navigate around it as an obstacle.

reforging Anakin's lightsaber after destroying it, reforging Kylo's helmet after destroying it, bringing back Temmin after TLJ was quite specific about the entire Resistance other then what was on the Millenium Falcon being dead, characterising the galaxy as not yet willingly being under the First Order rule and the First Order needing another much larger fleet in order to start an empire ...
I agree that walking back the first two creates for symbolic dead end/discordance, but the second two aren't issues. Both the Poe Dameron comic and TLJ novelization had made clear that Snap and the rest of Black Squadron were on another mission at the time of the massacre.

As for the First Order not yet having control, I feel that was pretty clear even in just TLJ itself.
 

Lulcielid

Media Thinker
AKA
Lucis Caelum
Obviously TRoS doesn't literally undo TLJ (it can't), but it does make much of it feel less significant -- like it's not trying to build on what it set down as a stepping stone so much as trying to navigate around it as an obstacle.
While I agree that TRoS doesn't build on everything that TLJ left on, that's still way different than it trying to undo or dismissing, but I guess we will agree to disagree.

Re: to Roger

What's the issue with the lightsaber being repaired? Last time we saw the saber it was being carried by a character that represents love for Star Wars (Rey) and not someone that hates it (Kylo). It would only be a problem if the thesis of TLJ was let the past die or something like that.
 
In general if you're writing a sequel, it's a bad idea to undo big dramatic moments of your predecessor without giving them the same dramatic weight.

It's not that Narsil can't be reforged into Anduril, but since it was broken in a big dramatic moment, it needs to be reforged in a big dramatic moment too. If you break Anakin's sabre, it can be repaired, but as it was broken in a big dramatic scene, it needs to be repaired in a big dramatic scene. If you just go 'oh, it's repaired now', the next time you have a big dramatic scene, the audience goes 'last time this happened, it didn't matter, why should I believe it's important this time?'

Funny enough
Rey Palpatine was my joke theory back in post TFA days, although I thought she'd be a clone

Edit: Technically, Black Squadron is pre established, but the dramatic weight of TLJ is hung on the concept of the Resistance ships being the last. If that's not true, then the stakes are damaged. You can only do 'technically that's true, but not really' so many times before your big dramatic scenes stop working because your audience stops believing the stakes.
 
Last edited:

Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
I agree that walking back the first two creates for symbolic dead end/discordance, but the second two aren't issues. Both the Poe Dameron comic and TLJ novelization had made clear that Snap and the rest of Black Squadron were on another mission at the time of the massacre.
I know, to go even further, creators stated that MOST Resistance pilots and their ships that appeared in TFA were actually on other missions and alive and well during TLJ, almost as soon as the movie came out, and Leia was able to contact allies from the Millenium Falcon as soon as they left Crait in stark contrast to the absolute radiosilence the galaxy was giving her in TLJ, instantly walking back the portrayal of the situation that Rian Johnson gave. But regardless of what parts of TLJ were already decided were unsustainable and needed to undone before Abrams and Terrio ever came on board this is still a movie trilogy, what happened in TLJ still happened and TROS is it's direct sequel.

As for the First Order not yet having control, I feel that was pretty clear even in just TLJ itself.
The FIRST ORDER reigns.
Having decimated the peaceful
Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke
now deploys the merciless
legions to seize military
control of the galaxy.

Only General Leia Organa's
band of RESISTANCE fighters
stand against the rising
tyranny, certain that Jedi
Master Luke Skywalker will
return and restore a spark of
hope to the fight.
It's there in yellow on black in the opening crawl, we don't see how the rest of the galaxy is doing in TLJ but we are told what is happening. ROS tells us the first line isn't true and the second wasn't possible yet for the First Order.

What's the issue with the lightsaber being repaired? Last time we saw the saber it was being carried by a character that represents love for Star Wars (Rey) and not someone that hates it (Kylo). It would only be a problem if the thesis of TLJ was let the past die or something like that.
What Rey and Kylo represent is up to interpretation, and I don't recall saying it was an issue, it's a thing that happened in TLJ and was undone in TROS.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
It's there in yellow on black in the opening crawl, we don't see how the rest of the galaxy is doing in TLJ but we are told what is happening. ROS tells us the first line isn't true and the second wasn't possible yet for the First Order.
The second sentence qualifies the first though? They don't reign quite yet; they're in the process of "deploy[ing] the merciless legions to seize military control of the galaxy." And the second paragraph says it's a "rising tyranny," not an established one.
 

Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
The second sentence qualifies the first though? They don't reign quite yet; they're in the process of "deploy[ing] the merciless legions to seize military
control of the galaxy." And the second paragrapg says it's a "rising tyranny," not an established one.
They don't reign absolutely everywhere, not yet. But tyranny over all kinds of systems and planets is still an empire, which they are not come TROS. They need the Sith fleet to seize military control of the galaxy. If this was a fact in TLJ, the statements concerning the situation in TLJ no longer make much sense to me.
 

Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
With the trillogy complete here is how I would rank the lightsaber fights:

Most technical: Duel of Fates (I)

Easily the fight the most complex choreography in the saga as well as being one of the few fight that features more than two lightsaber weilders at the same time, with Obi-Wan vs Anakin (III) & The Throne Room Fight (VIII) coming as a strong second.

Most Spectacular: Obi-Wan vs Anakin (III)

This category is similar to the above but with more emphasis on flash & style, the above fight gets extra points for having enviroment hazards. Duel of Fathes and The Throne Room come as second as well.

Most Substantial: Luke vs Kylo Ren (VIII)

The duel that carried the most thematic weight, while it had quite little in terms of "fighting" had the most meaning as Luke's embraces his legend, the legend the Galaxy needed, and keeps the spirit of what the Jedi are meant to use the force.

Most Viseral: Rey & Kylo vs Praetorian Guards (VIII)

This award goes easily to any of the fights in ST as neither feel like they're playing with fragile toys (OT) or lack the puch feeling in their strikes (PT). The second Rey vs Kylo (IX) is a strong runner-up.
I'd go with Luke vs Vader (VI) for most visceral. Yoda vs Palpatine for most spectacular. I'd agree with your substantial and technical picks.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
If there's a wider war going on, why do all the key figures of the FO have nothing better to do than chase the tiny resistance fleet?
I'm not sure what this is in reply to (I'm just assuming the "deploy[ing] the merciless legions to seize military control" thing), but assuming control of the rest of the galaxy would still necessitate the dispatching of those merciless legions to show up and say "We're in charge now." There may not have been an actual war underway with everyone.
 
Sure, but somebody has be organising that. Snoke and Hux should really be busy doing stuff like 'Nar Shadda has surrendered, do you accept their terms' or 'Chandrila is holding out, we need your authorisation to divert reinforcements from sector 142' and such. They don't have any time to be playing with Rey and the Resistance, if they're currently in the process of galaxy conquering.

I know I need to allow for a certain amount of artistic license here, because it would really detract from the scenes if Snoke was constantly being interrupted by messengers, but the scale of a galactic war has been established in the PT, and there's no real indication that there are any other battles going on at the time.
The plot is hung on the hook that the Resistance are the last resistance in the galaxy, and if they fall the spark is out. If that's not true, then much of the stakes are gone. But if it is true, then what do they need the Sith fleet for? We're caught, either way.

Re lightsabre fights, Anakin v Obi in 3 tops the list, with ESB next and then TPM. Dunno after that, I'm not good at ranking things.
 
AKA
Mr. Ite
Shadiversity goes into deep analysis as to why the RotS duel of the fates is one of if not the best onscreen duel, and another video picking apart why the TLJ throne room fight is (almost) utter trash. I agreed with both videos 100%
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Everyone else said what I would have perfectly. I didn't mean RoS literally undid TLJ, but it certainly did it's best to distance itself from it and minimize certain imprints it left within the continuity.

I'll even admit there's one instance of RoS doing that I sorta/kinda liked, honestly.
One gripe I had with TLJ was its failure to utilize Luke Skywalker in any functional mentor type role for Rey. And yes, I understand it was intentional in that regard and they purposefully subverted that expectation. However I feel that was quite frankly a waste of Hamill's talent and Luke's character.

I absolutely loved the perspective and take of Luke taking failure so hard and being disenchanted with the Jedi. That whole character arc of his was great. I just would have preferred if Luke had a moment of believing in Rey a little bit to teach her and giving her *some* guidance before she left.

The moment Luke returns as a Force ghost to help Rey and give her his X-Wing was too wonderful. It was "safe" but I would argue a guardrail or two along uncharted and unexpected paths never hurts a narrative going in new directions. I felt satisfied with that little bit. It was a perfect connection to the past without being too heavily attached to it.

I will say that this is why a sequel should really only be undertaken by either the original team that made the work, or at the very least, a consistent team that is on the same page in regards to direction, tone, and narrative. You can't simply wing it and plug in multiple writers/directors to just pay-as-you-go in terms of plot. It just becomes akin to glorified fan fiction; there's no unified or cohesive message or focus that underlies the main narrative. It's not just about the plot, it's the tone and themes that matter in a story too.

As much shit as sequel heavy series like Final Fantasy or Kingdom Hearts can get, they don't literally go to war with their own entries. Continuity errors may happen along with disparate levels of quality due to a medium, but at least you don't have something like Riku being built up as a major deuteragonist in one story before he's suddenly replaced and put on a bus to Twilight Town, never to be seen again until the end where he gets 4 lines and summarily ignored. :monster:
 

Lulcielid

Media Thinker
AKA
Lucis Caelum
Everyone else said what I would have perfectly. I didn't mean RoS literally undid TLJ, but it certainly did it's best to distance itself from it and minimize certain imprints it left within the continuity.
Then use the correct words, they have specific meaning and makes conversations clear.
 
AKA
Mr. Ite
I dunno, I feel like “undid” is as good a word as any. “Let the past die, kill it if you have to” > “OMG I NEED MY SPECIAL MASK BACK” is a character 180. Luke throws the saber > Luke catches the saber and says “A jedi’s weapon deserves more respect.” These are clearly a Block, not a course correction or distancing. A straight up Block of the offer.
 

Charles Xavier

Pro Adventurer
AKA
I wish I had a more original name, but 'Charles Xavier' has always stuck to me for some reason.
With the trillogy complete here is how I would rank the lightsaber fights:

Most technical: Duel of Fates (I)

Easily the fight the most complex choreography in the saga as well as being one of the few fight that features more than two lightsaber weilders at the same time, with Obi-Wan vs Anakin (III) & The Throne Room Fight (VIII) coming as a strong second.

Most Spectacular: Obi-Wan vs Anakin (III)

This category is similar to the above but with more emphasis on flash & style, the above fight gets extra points for having enviroment hazards. Duel of Fathes and The Throne Room come as second as well.

Most Substantial: Luke vs Kylo Ren (VIII)

The duel that carried the most thematic weight, while it had quite little in terms of "fighting" had the most meaning as Luke's embraces his legend, the legend the Galaxy needed, and keeps the spirit of what the Jedi are meant to use the force.

Most Viseral: Rey & Kylo vs Praetorian Guards (VIII)

This award goes easily to any of the fights in ST as neither feel like they're playing with fragile toys (OT) or lack the puch feeling in their strikes (PT). The second Rey vs Kylo (IX) is a strong runner-up.
I'm still gutted that we didn't see a lightsaber duel between Rey and Darth Sidious.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
@Makoeyes987
Luke asking to respect the saber is clearly and apology to his behaviour in the last film and that he acknowledges he was wrong, this would look like a 180° of TLJ but that only fits if you miss that Luke being wrong is the plot & message of TLJ.
I agree, actually. Luke getting his head out of his ass was his character arc in the prior film -- and if anything, he's talking about Rey giving herself the respect and credit she deserves when he says what he does about the weapon.
 
I think the ROTS duel is one of the best fights in cinema, but I think he was too hard on the throne room. Eight on two will always have gaps, because in reality that's an impossible fight. If you have to slow things down frame by frame to find the flaws, they're not really flaws. I did notice first time through that Rey kicks one guard and knocks three back, but I'll give them that, because she only has so many limbs.

It did the storytelling it needed to do, we got Rey getting out of holds by being slippery and Kylo getting out of holds through brute force (and not being able to when he can't apply it.) Neat bit of characterisation there.

The really unfortunate bit of backtracking was the sidelining of Rose Tico, because they could have done a show of support for Loan Tran instead of caving to fan rage. Imagine an arc where after TLJ Rose has become determined never to have to rely on someone like DJ again, and so has worked hard to become the team slicer, cracking first order comms and sabotaging their systems, as a vital part of the core team.

“Let the past die, kill it if you have to” > “OMG I NEED MY SPECIAL MASK BACK” is a character 180.
I agree, but don't forget the TFA part.

"I will finish what you started"> "Let the past die" > *Goes back to venerating Vader mask.* So it's a 360.

Luke's arc in TLJ nearly works. Leaving aside
the random whining about the PT Jedi, (which I will never not hate, sorry)
, his disillusionment could have worked. He sets up reappearing in Episode Nine with 'See you around, kid', but then dies.

And this flies in the face of TLJ's themes about learning from failure and not killing the past, because he learned from failure and didn't kill the past...and then he died, after apologising to Leia and Kylo for his failures. Normally, if you learn the lesson of the core themes of a film, the story rewards you. But he dies, because he has to get out of the way of the main characters, and so doesn't get a second chance.

I think TLJ honestly tried to work with what it was given, but couldn't quite stick the landing because it was left in such a difficult spot. TFA and TROS, though, actively work against their predecessors.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
The more we learn about the process behind the making of "The Rise of Skywalker," the more bafflement consumes me. I've still been working on a review geared towards analysis of the plot and themes, and there are things in there you can dig out, but they're the dredges left behind in a reservoir that has already been harshly mined.

In addition to the leaks about Trevorrow and Connolly's initial script draft, we apparently also now have leaks of their final draft -- and it's good. It's really good, actually. It makes the Sequel Trilogy come together in ways that it doesn't feel like Abrams's and Terrio's script even tried.

It also shows us quite inarguably that Carrie Fisher's tragic passing was not the utter derailment of the original plan that it has been speculated to have been. Scenes from the earlier draft that involved Leia work just fine here with Poe (meeting with Lando), Connix (in command of the Resistance), and later Lando (when R2 is revived) filling in.

One can even see the origin of characters and concepts that made their way into the filmed product -- but one cannot even begin to delve into the thought process that would take one to those destinations from their far superior beginnings.

Trevorrow and Connolly's script would have shown us Rey fighting to free enslaved migrants, and despite failing, inspiring them; just the sort of direction TLJ left us to believe would evolve from the struggles and strife of its heroes; and just the sort of thing a certain child slave on Tattooine had once dreamed of before he grew up to become the very thing he hated.

This script would have also shown us the related consideration of Finn weighing and acknowledging that the enemies trying to kill he and his friends may be just like those slaves -- and more to the point, just like he used to be -- before inspiring at least one to turn away from a path of resigned abetting to villainy.

One can readily see how these ideas got diluted down into the much-easier-to-include-yet-vapid, unearned, no-involvement-from-our-heroes, no-growth-or-character-arc-journey-for-them-either concept of Jannah and the company of First Order defectors on the Water Moon of Endor. What remains unknowable -- unfathomable even -- is how any storyteller could think to arrive at the latter destination when beginning from the former positions.

Similarly, if less egregiously, we can see how a) the story beat of hijacking a Star Destroyer via Rey using Mind Tricks on the crew and b) Rey using Mind Tricks on Poe to get him to leave her behind was diluted into a couple of inconsequential jokes in the filmed product, wherein Rey disarms the threat of some Stormtroopers with her Force abilities, prompting Poe to wonder aloud to Finn if he thinks their friend ever uses that trick on them.

All of this is without even getting into the diluted-to-the-point-of-waste ideas that would have seen the Knights of Ren used to relevant effect; a more nuanced exploration of Rey's darkness; a more nuanced depiction of Ben's journey back to the light; Rose given noteworthy screentime and jobs to do; and the more explicit depiction of proper balance in The Force via its duality (TRoS still manages this, but barely).

I have been using the word "diluted" rather than "distilled" to describe these plot points, by the way, as that is precisely what occurred; particularly where the concept of the company of former Stormtroopers supplanted the other slave subplots. Seeing how we got to where we did from where we should have been is like watching a whole bag of gas station ice melt into a glass of good whiskey.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
@The Mad King
Yes, bummed out is precisely how I feel. As you said, I still like TRoS, though I have been finding it increasingly difficult to appreciate.

Getting the thoughts from my previous post out seems to have been cathartic to some degree, however. I feel less frustration than I did four hours ago. I appreciate that you guys are here to assist in this process. Your eyes legitimately are oddly of help with it.
 
Huh... that could be interesting, actually. The focus on the random citizenry is good to see, but doesn't quite go far enough for me.

Still feels like details are missing. The Jedi might have a beacon, but if it's so old, who would be listening?

"Darth Maul like character." What does this mean, I wonder? Visually Zabrak? Personality wise? Looking like a Sith Apprentice?

And the climax is
Rey killing someone in a rage? Really?

Sollony and Solana? Hmm.
 
Top Bottom