The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
Star Wars: Episode 7, 8... and BEYOND!
- Thread starter Charles Xavier
- Start date
Lulcielid
Eyes of the Lord
- AKA
- Lulcy
X-SOLDIER
Harbinger O Great Justice
- AKA
- X
Saw this on Twitter and felt that it was appropriate:
X
X
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
No, Disney didn't know how to tell a cohesive overarching narrative.
I'd imagine a director and screenwriter would love to stay true to this wondrous mythology. It's a shame Disney kept swapping said writers out like batteries resulting in an inconsistent and rushed pace to finish the movies.
I'd imagine a director and screenwriter would love to stay true to this wondrous mythology. It's a shame Disney kept swapping said writers out like batteries resulting in an inconsistent and rushed pace to finish the movies.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
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- TresDias
I would contend that The Force has mostly been explored as it should be since it's been with Disney. The last episode to season six of "The Clone Wars" came after Disney had ownership. Likewise "Dooku: Jedi Lost" and a number of comics that have properly depicted matters of The Force.
I would also include the Sequel Trilogy films (especially TLJ) in a positive assessment on this point. I only feel that this breaks down where the ST is concerned with TRoS mounting what is basically a philosophical retreat into somewhat deifying the Jedi of the PT-era. That made for an awkward disconnect.
Even so, overall TRoS did what it's supposed to as well. At least on this particular matter.
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
It ends up being weirdly meta, correcting beliefs the fanbase had rather than beliefs that anyone in universe had.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
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- TresDias
I'm not quite sure it corrected anything, unless there are fans who saw them as utterly without virtuous intent or otherwise respectable qualities.
As far as it goes, emphasizing the positives in their legacy is an appropriate creative decision for the third installment. Being that Luke promised Kylo "I will not be the last Jedi," and being that "Rey will restore the Jedi to their lost status as beacons of hope" is the implied direction the second installment left the third to take, it would be discordant not to emphasize that.
It just comes off as an awkward -- probably confusing even to some viewers -- clash to never really pay any lip service to either the Jedi Order's virtues or their failings beyond Rey really wanting them to talk to her ... especially since her chosen Force practice eschews their interpretation of The Force ... but then still bring them in at the eleventh hour to assist her, with such reverence and fanfare attached to the sequence. It's just plain awkward.
But that's how the editing of the whole film can be described.
As far as it goes, emphasizing the positives in their legacy is an appropriate creative decision for the third installment. Being that Luke promised Kylo "I will not be the last Jedi," and being that "Rey will restore the Jedi to their lost status as beacons of hope" is the implied direction the second installment left the third to take, it would be discordant not to emphasize that.
It just comes off as an awkward -- probably confusing even to some viewers -- clash to never really pay any lip service to either the Jedi Order's virtues or their failings beyond Rey really wanting them to talk to her ... especially since her chosen Force practice eschews their interpretation of The Force ... but then still bring them in at the eleventh hour to assist her, with such reverence and fanfare attached to the sequence. It's just plain awkward.
But that's how the editing of the whole film can be described.
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
I didn't mean to say that either was 'correct' just that they were fighting each other.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
All other considerations aside about the inclusion of this or that plot element, this piece from the first batch remains my favorite of the leaked concept art:
That look on Rey's face, the exertion behind her swing in her shoulders, the lunge in her legs -- man, what a well-crafted action piece.
That look on Rey's face, the exertion behind her swing in her shoulders, the lunge in her legs -- man, what a well-crafted action piece.
Roger
He/him
- AKA
- Minato
And Revan doesn't look halfbad eitherAll other considerations aside about the inclusion of this or that plot element, this piece from the first batch remains my favorite of the leaked concept art:
That look on Rey's face, the exertion behind her swing in her shoulders, the lunge in her legs -- man, what a well-crafted action piece.
X-SOLDIER
Harbinger O Great Justice
- AKA
- X
I wasn't prepared for the MASSIVE hit of nostalgia and yearning that that Eclipse Star Destroyer brought on.
I so wish that we got this versionnnnnnnn.
X
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
So many leaks...someone in Lucasfilm is a fan of CT's script.
Kuat looks great.
Kuat looks great.
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
Full CT script supposedly leaked online now. Summaries broadly accurate. An extremely mixed bag.
It's weird.
Half the plot is about how the galaxy needs hope and to pull together, the other half is about Rey and Kylo the unstoppable superheroes deciding everything through single combat. The themes completely contradict each other.
Finn leading stormtrooper revolt and underclasses of Coruscant... I'm mostly on board, but does everyone our leads work with need to get slaughtered?
Tor Valum teaches Kylo vampirism but is somehow surprised when he's betrayed thereafter. Betraying Master is a core religious tenet of the Sith, how did you not see that coming?
The force links everything...except Hux for some reason?
Rey succeeds where Yoda et al failed by... achieving the emotional balance of the average person and talking Kylo into killing himself. Try that on Palpatine and see how well that goes, kiddo.
Some of these ideas seemingly ended up on Rebels, sabotaged mobile capital, blinding wound in combat in a duel near a temple, then fighting on.
And Rey going to teach a new generation of Jedi...but what, exactly? The emotional balance most people already have?
Rose's story is absolutely brilliant, I'll give them that.
Half the plot is about how the galaxy needs hope and to pull together, the other half is about Rey and Kylo the unstoppable superheroes deciding everything through single combat. The themes completely contradict each other.
Finn leading stormtrooper revolt and underclasses of Coruscant... I'm mostly on board, but does everyone our leads work with need to get slaughtered?
Tor Valum teaches Kylo vampirism but is somehow surprised when he's betrayed thereafter. Betraying Master is a core religious tenet of the Sith, how did you not see that coming?
The force links everything...except Hux for some reason?
Rey succeeds where Yoda et al failed by... achieving the emotional balance of the average person and talking Kylo into killing himself. Try that on Palpatine and see how well that goes, kiddo.
Some of these ideas seemingly ended up on Rebels, sabotaged mobile capital, blinding wound in combat in a duel near a temple, then fighting on.
And Rey going to teach a new generation of Jedi...but what, exactly? The emotional balance most people already have?
Rose's story is absolutely brilliant, I'll give them that.
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
Hopefully. This is my biggest beef with the Jedi in the PT. They are amazingly bad at it. Specifically at recognizing the lack of it in other people and helping them get more emotionally balanced.
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
I should mention that the leaked script was the first draft, not the final one. Not quite fair to judge on a first draft, but I still have a lot of questions.
@Obsidian: But won't most people be more or less emotionally balanced anyway? What do they need special training in it for?
@Obsidian: But won't most people be more or less emotionally balanced anyway? What do they need special training in it for?
LNK
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Nate
Help with controlling those emotions, is my guess
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
God, I can't begin to understand why. This is so freakin' good. If the head honchos at Lucasfilm have an ounce of sense, we'll see this adapted into a comic at some point.
Literally the only leg TRoS has up on DotF is an explanation for Snoke. That's it. Literally, that is it. And glad as I am to have that, I would happily take that trade for everything else.
I'm hoping we see the final draft leak soon as well. We know they'll be pretty similar, but I am curious to see which of the two makes for the strongest.
From what we know, it sounds like the final draft put the Knights of Ren to a bit better use, but I thought it was really fitting how the first draft made use of Coruscant and Mortis.
Most people, even in this setting, can't move objects with their mind or influence the thoughts of others.Clement said:
Rey and Kylo's conflict didn't decide everything, though. Even Hux makes the point that the Sith-Jedi struggle is really a separate thing from the Resistance-First Order conflict.
Sure, fully empowered Dark Side Kylo would have been a galaxy-level threat, but his passing didn't affect the other battle at all. The Capital being destroyed was the decisive turning point in the wider war.
Clement said:
What do you mean? Rafe lives, Dade lives -- even Broom Boy returns at the end, seemingly having now been set free by Rose and Finn after the war was over.
Regarding that last one, by the way, imagine that.
Clement said:
Yeah, removing Tor Valum -- and changing the circumstances of Kylo's recovery from the holocron booby trap -- was definitely an improvement from this first draft to the final one. That said, I would take the entirety of what this first draft offered in an instant over the whole of finalized TRoS.
Clement said:
When has it been established that one can choose to become a Force-wielder without previously demonstrating any Force-sensitivity? If it were that simple, why doesn't everyone do it?
There's still hope for you yet, my friend.Clement said:
Roger
He/him
- AKA
- Minato
I'd like to reiterate my dislike for the idea that the only thing needed to effeciently operate a super star destroyer, a gargantaun ship with crew counts close to the hunderd thousand is one pilot and one navigator. Hux stating out loud that Kylo is not his nor anyone's master while trying to force Kylo's will on his council with the same breath is a new level of stupid for Hux (and that's high threshold to clear). Leia going right back to having to combat what she views as suicidal recklessness on Poe's part that'll get everyone killed without her renders The Last Jedi as pointless as anything.
Luke telling Kylo how empty his pursuit of power using the methods of the Sith is was fine but then gets undermined with him going "but Mortis, tho, that'll make him superpowerful." I already dislike Mortis with it professing to the objectively correct path to Balance, the Force and everything that the Jedi and the Sith are missing but having Kylo just being able to obtain it as a weapon is even worse. Mortis just becomes using the Force but better then that weak shit we see in the movies thus far if it also becomes the definite article on what Vader meant with the power of the Force making the power to destroy a planet insignificant.
How we transitioned from no one, literally no one in the galaxy giving a crap about Leia and the Resistance trying to save them from the tyranny of the First Order to everyone in the galaxy worshipping Luke and his mythical apprentice and only her death being able to stop the uprisings everywhere would also need much much more explaining for me. The way the events at Crait actually disheartened Poe in the Rise of Skywalker and the onus was on people in the galaxy outside of the Resistance to win back his faith was a much more compelling follow up to The Last Jedi for me.
Didn't want to keep reading the whole script any further then this.
Rey going undercover as a Tusken Raider, Tatioone's non-spacefaring native race, on Kuat's spacedock is also a stupid bit of fanservice but I don't care too much about that.
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The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
The script:
"INT. ECLIPSE DESTROYER - BRIDGE
A massive navigational bridge dense with FIRST ORDER CREW."
Roger said:
The script (some bolding added for clarity):
---
LEIA
They’ll kill millions. I’ve seen it. It’s too reckless.
POE
Resistance is reckless! Passion is the greatest weapon we have!
Poe appeals to Leia. Their history together laid bare.
POE (CONT'D)
The Rebels fought the Empire and won. You showed us it could be done. But that was your war. This one’s ours. Let us fight it.
Leia looks out at the Resistance Fleet. Young. Ready.
LEIA
Set a course for Coruscant. Ready all weapons and attack ships. This is a full assault.
---
Roger said:
The script:
---
Kylo reaches out. The stone slab slides off and falls to the ground with a THUD.
He looks down into the well beneath the temple, deep into the heart of Mortis, eager for his reward...
It’s EMPTY. Nothing. A hole in the ground.
KYLO
No...no....
Kylo searches the rune-covered walls for answers. He finds only arcane sculpted faces looking down at him.
---
Roger said:
I can think of at least a couple of other reasons someone may not involve themselves in a losing battle.
Roger said:
In fairness, that is something that began in "The Last Jedi." For that matter, the Resistance mattered to at least some people not already part of it there too.
Roger said:
This is actually a reasonable comment.
Roger said:
The script:
"The Dropship touches down in a canyon of white and blue sedimentary rock, kicking up a storm of silver sand.
STORMTROOPERS shield their eyes as the craft spits out a new batch of MIGRANT WORKERS from all corners of the galaxy--aliens and humans submitting to the First Order in exchange
for safety and a scrap of food."
Roger said:
It kind of shows!
Roger
He/him
- AKA
- Minato
"FIRST ORDER TECH
Just the bridge crew, sir. The rest
are on dock leave."
Again, it was sitting at space dock, it's not like it was ready to fly out and had a skeleton crew. It had much much less then that. If the navigational bridge is all that is required then the ten of thousands of people that work on the hundreds of other decks on a eclipse don't really have a job with regards to operating the ship. I don't like that idea.
You are leaving that they were forced to leave their base because Poe brought a Eclipse-clas star destroyer there.
"LUKE (VO)
This is where the dark path leads.
An empty tomb.
LUKE SKYWALKER’S VOICE. Haunting his nephew like a spirit.
KYLO
And where did your path lead?
You’re a ghost.
LUKE (VO)
I know what you’re searching for,
Ben. Your Master promised you
strength, but you feel hollow.
KYLO
Soon I will be more powerful than
any Jedi. Even you.
LUKE (VO)
Are you sure?"
"LUKE (CONT'D)
Beneath the Temple of Mortis lies a
power beyond anything the Jedi have
ever known. If Kylo reaches the
Temple, all we’ve fought for will
be lost. You have to confront him."
These are the passages I'm referring to, whether Kylo ultimately fails to life up to Luke's fears or not doesn't retroactively improve Luke's characterisation here.
So can I. All the same, having established that not a single person is willing to help, not one single head of planetary government, ship captain or even person manning a communications panel in the galaxy being willing to even respond with a message to remorsefully decline, the story should be about how the galaxy moved past this state of affairs, not skip to that substantial problem being overcome off screen.
How? Only the last few handul of Resistance survivors and the First Order witnessed Luke's final stand. And only the Resistance and Kylo are aware that Rey was Luke's apprentice. Did the crew of the Millenium Falcon do nothing but go around orating Luke's demise and dropping the news that he trained an apprentice for a week before he died throughout the galaxy for months? If that is how hope was restored the galaxy, SHOW us that instead of skipping to that being the case, cause it's not exactly the natural progression.
I know you've seen the other movies, but I guess I should add extremely hostile species that doesn't speak Basic to the Tusken Raiders description. There are millions of species that have spread throughout the galaxy and are ubiquitous in any population center and thus a common sight and useful as a disguise. The Tusken Raiders are not among those species but are iconic to us because the movies take place in no small part on Tatioone, a sparsely populated back-water desert planet that the average citizen of galaxy, like Rey or workers on Kuat probably wouldn't even have heard of much less recognise a local from. But it's recognisable to us so it gets the edge on being Rey's disguise. That's dumb fanservice in my eyes.
The script, I'm told is rather faithful to the summary of it, I'm led to understand.