Also, Rey seems kinda flip floppy. One scene she's expressing serious doubt about being a Jedi and having big problems with the whole light vs dark and balance thing, then the next scene she's in she tells Leia that she trusts her Jedi training to see her through. There needs to be a scene between these two to show why Rey would transition from one mindset to the other.
Given that I have to watch blurays in black and white, I defer to your judgement re colours.
Hard to judge without a full script, and 'early draft' can be very different from the final one, together with how much this could be reconciled with Carrie Fisher's sudden death.
Some things I like, others I don't. Force Ghost Luke is nice, still makes no sense that Rey's upset about being 'nobody' like every other Jedi. Good to see Coruscant again.
Mortis and 'you succeeded where we failed'...sigh.
Re that JJ Quote, that can be good advice. It's easy to get lost in details and explaining everything, or overanalyse your work and never do anything with it. One thing Lucas was very good at is knowing what to explain and what not to explain.
There's a lot to like in there, starting with the title crawl which is actually kinda awesome. But there is one major crucial problem. I absolutely hate the way Kylo Ren's arc seems to be handled here. Maybe there's some missing details or something from the end, but it seems like in this version he just stays a villain, with no redemption in sight. Live or die, Ben's redemption is vital in any version of episode ix imo. It's one of the most important concepts in all of Star Wars.
Whatever issues I have with TROS, and there are many, it at least nailed that aspect of things.
I've been watching the videos from the YouTuber who dropped this on us, and the way he explains it, "Duel of the Fates" apparently still would have had it go that Leia connects with Ben through The Force as he's about to kill Rey. He then repents as Rey is dying and extending her hand to him. He takes her hand and gives his life force to her.
So, similar to what we got, but still very different.
Well, I'm glad we got the IX we did then instead of Colin's. Having Bossk survive the infernal explosion on Jabba's yacht above the Sarlacc Pit but keeping Boba dead ... would've invoked some serious nerdrage in me.
Dengar survived that explosion, though, both in the old Expanded Universe and the new canon.
As for Boba, there's no way we don't see him again somewhere down the line. He's just too popular and iconic. Besides, the "Aftermath" novels have already established that he and his armor are not still in the Sarlacc. It was left deliberately ambiguous as to whether he came out alive, but my money's on yes.
Hard to judge without a full script, and 'early draft' can be very different from the final one, together with how much this could be reconciled with Carrie Fisher's sudden death.
Dengar survived that explosion, though, both in the old Expanded Universe and the new canon.
As for Boba, there's no way we don't see him again somewhere down the line. He's just too popular and iconic. Besides, the "Aftermath" novels have already established that he and his armor are not still in the Sarlacc. It was left deliberately ambiguous as to whether he came out alive, but my money's on yes.
Dengar, unlike Bossk was never shown to be on the yacht. The stories were he survived work on the presumption that he wasn't. And the Aftermath novel don't say anything. It could be Boba's armor, could be someone else's, Boba could have made it out alive or the armor could've been regurgitated after his death, as such, Boba might never appear again, yet if he does the person that brings him back wouldn't have to deal with Cobb at all if they don't want to. It's utterly non commital on the situation.
Why don't they just make all of the scripts into movies, and if they don't fit into the canon of one universe, have multiple universes/interpretations, like Marvel, DC, and lots of other works of fiction . That way we can have "Oh, I preferred X universe/ending (etc) to Y's one". Inb4 "Too expensive!" I don't think any movie studio has learnt that you don't need to spend much money to earn a shit ton of profit, despite this being demonstrated time and time again (Get rich quick idea: let's make a movie, TLS ). Yet they throw a lot of money at special effects in these films. They should invest more money in quality of story than fancy costumes, sets, and CGI. Lights and angles is all you need to make shit look good visually . Many a beautiful film has been made on a shoe string budget. I suspect people are fatigued of Star Wars, because of the average story-telling, narrow range of perspectives (eg: Jedi versus Sith). No amount of fancy graphics is going to hide that, especially if poorly composed (as is common). The entire movie industry seems to be under this spell. Exploring other things in a multi/universe is a breath of fresh air (if you can't be original, and create something entirely new >.>). I quite liked Rogue One, and it seems like the Mandalorian was well-received also.
The more I see, the more convinced I am that the ideal version of Episode IX lies somewhere around the halfway point between what we got, and what Collin Trevorrow was doing. Most of what I don't like in TROS is addressed in Duel Of The Fates, and most of what I don't like in dotf is addressed in TROS.
When did production start? It seems unlikely that they filmed scenes from an early draft.
Edit: I mean, I guess they could have, but since it was so different from what we got, short of a justice league situation I can't see them completely changing streams mid production.
You are correct, now that I've refreshed my memory. Dengar was in Jabba's palace when Luke was (as seen in RotJ), but the old EU has Dengar arriving at the Pit of Carkoon after the battle.
Regardless, even in the old canon, multiple people survived the explosion of Jabba's sail barge, including the entire Max Rebo Band and Bossk himself, so I don't see what the problem is with Bossk being alive?
Roger said:
And the Aftermath novel don't say anything. It could be Boba's armor, could be someone else's, Boba could have made it out alive or the armor could've been regurgitated after his death, as such, Boba might never appear again, yet if he does the person that brings him back wouldn't have to deal with Cobb at all if they don't want to. It's utterly non commital on the situation.
Which is why I said "It was left deliberately ambiguous whether he came out alive." =P What's clear, though, is that the Sarlacc has been gutted and is being pillaged by Jawas. That's made abundantly clear.
In addition, it's made clear that these Jawas acquired the torched pieces of Jabba's sail barge along with a full suit of Mandalorian armor.
All I said about this is that we now know Boba and his armor are not still in the Sarlacc. That's not saying he's necessarily alive. Between that information and his popularity, though, my money is on him being revealed alive at some soon-ish point.
You are correct, now that I've refreshed my memory. Dengar was in Jabba's palace when Luke was (as seen in RotJ), but the old EU has Dengar arriving at the Pit of Carkoon after the battle.
Regardless, even in the old canon, multiple people survived the explosion of Jabba's sail barge, including the entire Max Rebo Band and Bossk himself, so I don't see what the problem is with Bossk being alive?
The old canon is not a measure what's okay or not.
Which is why I said "It was left deliberately ambiguous whether he came out alive." =P What's clear, though, is that the Sarlacc has been gutted and is being pillaged by Jawas. That's made abundantly clear.
In addition, it's made clear that these Jawas acquired the torched pieces of Jabba's sail barge along with a full suit of Mandalorian armor.
All I said about this is that we now know Boba and his armor are not still in the Sarlacc. That's not saying he's necessarily alive. Between that information and his popularity, though, my money is on him being revealed alive at some soon-ish point.
They acquire a lot of junk in a lot of different places. They don't commit to saying the Mandalorian armor is from the Sarlacc pit, or is even green in color. They also don't commit to saying the Sarlacc is actually dead or not. While Jawa are pulling out in intestines, it still only says it's injured. And yeah, I'd imagined Boba would be revealed as a alive at a soon-ish point. We've all been thinking that for 6 years, might go for another 6 years still.
There was originally “a little more information about it, what was keeping [Palpatine] alive,” but, Brandon said, “it seemed to go off topic.”
“There was so much information in the film and so many characters that we wanted to have an audience concentrate on. I think we felt we didn’t want to clutter the film up with things you didn’t need to know,” she said.
Boba was absolutely alive in Jedi Academy, and other EU titles. It’s just a matter of whether Disney is gonna do it their way, or leave well enough alone.
Suggests an almost improvisational approach to some things that sounds a lot like the issues that Miller & Lord had when filming Solo that ultimately got that film a new director.
I've been reading this thread and it's been so interesting hearing everyone's thoughts and the discussion generated here.
Without going into tl;dr territory I will say that over all, while I enjoyed and thought Rise of Skywalker was a nice, wholesome conclusion, there was a clear disparity of vision and themes present throughout this Sequel trilogy that dragged the movies down. Like, it's gobsmackingly obvious. After watching Force Awakens, and The Last Jedi again, I can't help but feel as if I've been watching a clash of creative visions between two diametrically opposed directors and writers, and RoS is the victory lap of one over the other.
I think the Star Wars sequel movies are the clearest example of the perils of creating a sequel with no unifying vision or cohesive writing to link them all. Not just in terms of linking to the source material, but linking them all to themselves. These three movies feel so different from each other and it creates a discordant narrative that is simply inconsistent in its storytelling. If you focus on the main narrative points and in-universe elements, then it's not so bad, and they are certainly all enjoyable movies individually but the fact they're supposed to be telling a continuous narrative is... Bizarre.
I never hated TLJ however I would say I liked it the least of the 3 new movies. I respect the balls Rian Johnson had to tell the type of story he did, but there were some things I would have changed. However, while I enjoyed RoS, it felt like it was trying too hard to undo a lot of what TLJ did. It created a very obvious and unnecessary tension within the trilogy movies.
In summation, Disney fucked up in not having a clear direction or map for the franchise in place before doing these movies. They simply winged it.
Like, I have no problems whatsoever with
Rey being the granddaughter of Palaptine. That's fucking cool to me and a great way of exploring themes of identity and agency. But if you're gonna have a huge revelation like that, it needs to be built up from the jump. Her incredible aptitude with the Force is the perfect foot in the door to that plot. I loved the conflict with the Dark Side she exhibited in RoS. That should've been explored and showcased in the other movies!!! Not just in the last one!!!
And that fight against her evil side? That was amazing, why did it just appear only to disappear as if it never happened??
These are all things that should have been alluded to and built upon in the past two movies. This is a character arc that would have been incredible if it had simply been planned properly and executed with some finese and vision. Everything in this trilogy is just half-assed, rushed and paced poorly. I have no idea what direction they were going with Finn and Poe. What was it that Finn wanted to tell Rey as they sunk in quicksand? Why are there three possible love interests for Finn and it just is left dangling? Hell, at least the cool black woman former stormtrooper might get with Lando. Cause she just got dropped like garbage in the end. Like, it's all so strange.
And Rose Tico just got fridged out of nowhere. Like, it's so bizarre. But it's indicative of the fact that these movies are being made by two different people with very different visions of who and what's important to the story.
In the end, RoS isn't shit, and is actually enjoyable and acceptable for an end movie. But it definitely is weak. And certainly not the type of end something as awesome and amazing as Star Wars deserves. The sequels are a cautionary tale of how one can fail at making a sequel for something beloved. The sequel trilogy doesn't live up to the original at all. At least, to me.
If you focus on the main narrative points and in-universe elements, then it's not so bad, and they are certainly all enjoyable movies individually but the fact they're supposed to be telling a continuous narrative is... Bizarre.
This is definitely the big, unfortunate takeaway. =(
Mako said:
Like, I have no problems whatsoever with
Rey being the granddaughter of Palaptine. That's fucking cool to me and a great way of exploring themes of identity and agency. But if you're gonna have a huge revelation like that, it needs to be built up from the jump.
I agree there was nothing inherently wrong with the idea at all. I'd even say what was already established by TFA and TLJ is sufficient to build upon for the idea -- it was just executed way too clumsily here in how it was revealed for it to be poignant rather than histrionic to the point of being ineffectual.
Mako said:
And that fight against her evil side? That was amazing, why did it just appear only to disappear as if it never happened??
Jannah possibly being Lando's daughter is implied by the Visual Dictionary. Lando's infant daughter was taken by the First Order to become a Stormtrooper.
Other stuff that comes to my mind might be certain characters not being prominent (Rose) but that's not undoing stuff, that's just a character being unused. Not exploring ideas set up in the TLJ (Kylo as Supreme Leader) but that's not undoing, that's just a wasted potential idea. Not exploring either ideas & themes with some characters (Finn & Poe) but that's not exploring new ideas & themes, not undoing stuff. Explaining the background of characters that TLJ didnt explain (Snoke) but that's explaining a background, not undoing stuff.
These are stuff on top of my head that I have seem people screaming about "undoing TLJ" but neither of them "undoes" the previous movie, at worst it's taking a different direction than what the end of TLJ might have lead you to believe but that's it, it's a different direction and one that to me is does not undo anything, it probably was a safe direction but that's not undoing TLJ, it's just taking a safer direction, unless your view of "undoing TLJ" is being a safer movie than TLJ.
I can think of dozen of criticisms to TRoS, undoing TLJ is not one of them.
Other stuff that comes to my mind might be certain characters not being prominent (Rose) but that's not undoing stuff, that's just a character being unused. Not exploring ideas set up in the TLJ (Kylo as Supreme Leader) but that's not undoing, that's just a wasted potential idea. Not exploring either ideas & themes with some characters (Finn & Poe) but that's not exploring new ideas & themes, not undoing stuff. Explaining the background of characters that TLJ didnt explain (Snoke) but that's explaining a background, not undoing stuff.
These are stuff on top of my head that I have seem people screaming about "undoing TLJ" but neither of them "undoes" the previous movie, at worst it's taking a different direction than what the end of TLJ might have lead you to believe but that's it, it's a different direction and one that to me is does not undo anything, it probably was a safe direction but that's not undoing TLJ, it's just taking a safer direction, unless your view of "undoing TLJ" is being a safer movie than TLJ.
I can think of dozen of criticisms to TRoS, undoing TLJ is not one of them.
reforging Anakin's lightsaber after destroying it, reforging Kylo's helmet after destroying it, bringing back Temmin after TLJ was quite specific about the entire Resistance other then what was on the Millenium Falcon being dead, characterising the galaxy as not yet willingly being under the First Order rule and the First Order needing another much larger fleet in order to start an empire, that's just general story elements, what themes TLJ and TROS did or didn't explore respectively is highly subjective.
With the trillogy complete here is how I would rank the lightsaber fights:
Most technical: Duel of Fates (I)
Easily the fight the most complex choreography in the saga as well as being one of the few fight that features more than two lightsaber weilders at the same time, with Obi-Wan vs Anakin (III) & The Throne Room Fight (VIII) coming as a strong second.
Most Spectacular: Obi-Wan vs Anakin (III)
This category is similar to the above but with more emphasis on flash & style, the above fight gets extra points for having enviroment hazards. Duel of Fathes and The Throne Room come as second as well.
Most Substantial: Luke vs Kylo Ren (VIII)
The duel that carried the most thematic weight, while it had quite little in terms of "fighting" had the most meaning as Luke's embraces his legend, the legend the Galaxy needed, and keeps the spirit of what the Jedi are meant to use the force.
Most Viseral: Rey & Kylo vs Praetorian Guards (VIII)
This award goes easily to any of the fights in ST as neither feel like they're playing with fragile toys (OT) or lack the puch feeling in their strikes (PT). The second Rey vs Kylo (IX) is a strong runner-up.
. That way we can have "Oh, I preferred X universe/ending (etc) to Y's one". Inb4 "Too expensive!" I don't think any movie studio has learnt that you don't need to spend much money to earn a shit ton of profit, despite this being demonstrated time and time again (Get rich quick idea: let's make a movie, TLS 
