Star Wars: Episode 7, 8... and BEYOND!

[Lulcielid]

I like this idea.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

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[Clement Rage]

Sorry, been sick. Still open to being told to shut up, to whom it concerns, I really don't want to take over the thread or suck the enjoyment out of it.

Sorry to jump out of quote-replies to ya, Clement Rage, but I think that these two pieces do a fantastically good job of summing up the points that I'm getting at overall about the film, especially in regards to how The Last Jedi breaks away from the royal legacy theme. Some of them are a bit more of a meta-analysis of the message of the fspoileilm itself, but still really important to contextually understand for the sake of why people keep coming back to how different they are.

Also, everyone should read them, because they're excellent.

• http://www.vulture.com/2017/12/rey-p...-populism.html
• http://gerryconway.tumblr.com/post/1...-to-talk-about

Having read them, I'm not sure they address what I've been saying. Conway's Corner is a political diatribe that makes personal attacks against George Lucas (how the hell does the writer know whether or not he has despaired or was thwarted in a dream or not, that's ridiculous) Truthfully, I have a very hard time buying that Millenials have so much greater trials than the Baby Boomers. All those Civil Rights Movements had to battle through some hard crackdowns.

Anakin's fall was fear for his family making him accept the easy path to power, and then being too far gone to go back, it wasn't unclear. Meanwhile,

Spoiler

why Kylo turned (not the trigger, why he was tempted in the first place, hasn't been revealed yet.

For the second,

Spoiler

The Jedi acting as Judge, Jury Executioner only happens to people actively attacking them and Palpatine, after giving even him a chance to surrender. Among other things.

I could go through it point by point, but there's a lot of cherrypicking there. The Skywalkers are VIPS, but they're largely made to suffer because of it, not as some pampered elite. When all those crazy theories about Rey's origin were happening, most had her not a Skywalker, and there was no outrage over that. Making such a fuss over 'moving beyond the Skywalkers' feels like being proud of breaking down a door that wasn't locked.

[/spoiler]

But I think we have a crossed wire here, because those articles are arguing about the broad themes, which I broadly don't have a problem with. The main issue is in the execution.

Spoiler

War profiteering: As a theme, this works fine, but not in this movie, right now.

Because the previous film set up the new Republic as aggressively pacifist to the point of decommissioning most of their army, with a few dissenters funnelling money and gear to the resistance. The Resistance itself is shown to be poorly equipped, not enough to sustain a casino of war profiteers. The FO has been building their fleet in the furthest reaches of the galaxy in utmost secrecy, how does that work when they're buying from the same dealers as the resistance? The previous film called out the New Republic as pacifists, how can they turn around now and call them out for being warmongers?

Free the animals? After we've used them to escape, sure.

"Save what you love, don't destroy what you hate"

A great theme. Everyone in this film is motivated by saving what they love (including Finn and Poe). But it doesn't lead anywhere good. Every attempt to save without destruction fails and results in more lost lives. At the end, Poe is not talking about 'saving the galaxy', he's talking about 'burning the first order down'. Maybe he learned a different lesson?

I am not against the themes, but if you're going to do them, do them properly.

Even Bob thinks that

Spoiler

Force Sensitivity popping up randomly is a status quo change rather than where things were in the first place.

With regard to the Emperor's Throne Room,

Spoiler

it takes some long hard work from skilled Darkside tempters to get Luke to pick up the lightsabre. They're needling him for a long time before he draws, and that's with a helpful powerpoint presentation of his friends dying (not some hypothetical future threat, those explosions out the window are real Rebels dying.) Even then it takes him a long time to crack. It's very far from his first response and after his initial recovery. The Emperor rips out all of his hope, makes it seem like his only chance of making things right is to draw on him... and still has to work hard to get him to crack. That's not equivalent to his first impulse being to draw against a vague nebulous threat. Also, in Empire, Leia's pain was deliberately broadcast to draw him into a trap, his 'in danger' reflex doesn't kick in for every threat.

 

[Claymore]

Saw the movie again last night, this time in the 4DX experience. Even though I absolutely loved it the first time around, I found that going in again for a second time I could set aside the hype, expectations and the excitement surrounding a new Star Wars release and simply enjoy the story, characters and what was accomplished even more.

It's a great film and I'm even more excited about the next instalment.

 

[Charles Xavier]

 

[X-SOLDIER]

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[X-SOLDIER]

Thanks to Leeland Chee, we know what the final straw was that decided that the old EU became Legends canon – that time when Chewie died because they dropped a moon on him.

"For me it came down to simply that we had killed Chewbacca in the Legends — a big moon had fallen on him. Part of that [original decision] was Chewbacca, because he can't speak and just speaks in growls, he was a challenging character to write for in novels. Publishing had decided they needed to kill somebody, and it was Chewbacca, but if you have the opportunity to bring back Chewbacca into a live action film, you're not gonna deprive fans that. There's no way that I'd want to do an Episode VII that didn't have Chewbacca in it and have to explain that Chewbacca had a moon fall on his head. And if we were going to overturn a monumental decision like that, everything else was really just minor in comparison."

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[Lulcielid]

MRAs Make 46-Minute Cut Of ‘The Last Jedi’ That Edits Out All The Women. The salt is strong here. (spoilers)


Rian Johnson explains why he didn't use Knights of Ren in TLJ and more. (spoilers)

 

[Mage]

The MRA link is HILARIOUS. Some people want to watch the world burn, others want it remoulded in the image of a giant phallus.

 

[Ryushikaze]

-Your Post here-

Spoiler: The short version

I had a more in depth response here to the points you raised, but the forum ate it and I don't want to type it all up again, but the salient points are that you argue that Poe was acting impulsive and trying to use his former rank when speaking with Holdo. I do not recall him introducing himself by rank, just by name, but I'll admit I could just not remember that. I also don't think him asking for reassurance that there is a plan is him assuming he'll have a part in it. Nor do I think her initial confrontation with her was an appropriate response to his inquiry, to the point where I was honestly expecting her to explain she was trying to get him to undertake a plan of his own as a distraction or something.

Regardless of all that, we still have a Holdo who is introduced as angry at Poe for his brash and impulsive action that put the resistance at risk, and then we have a Holdo who speaks with praise for Poe after he has mutinied, a brash and impulsive action that put the resistance at risk.

I'm also like 90% sure that the De-femmed edit is Poe's {Ba Dum Tish} law in action. Oh, it's real, but I think it's a piss take, like the family friendly It trailer.

 

[Cthulhu]

Poe's law indeed. I wonder if they did an MRA version of that new Ghostbusters movie? If not, it needs to be done; I've not actually seen it but I can imagine it'd be a weird collage of the occasional random dude and loads of snaps of random ghosts and shit,

 

[wander]

TLJ was probably the worst Star Wars movie to date, or at least tied with Phantom Menace & Attack of the Clones.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Be careful not to cut yourself on all that edge, Wander.




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[Mage]

Phantom Menace was uniquely terrible.

 

[Clement Rage]

Re Moviebob: It's an interesting perspective, but I'm not sure I believe it.

Spoiler

For that to work, there needs to be a counterargument made to the idea that the old Jedi were worthless failures. The closest we get is stealing the Jedi texts, which is easy to miss and doesn't affect anything in this movie itself.

Luke successfully convinces Rey that he's not worth learning anything from and she leaves. Yoda doesn't comfort him by talking about anything he's achieved, he basically says 'Yup, you're a total failure, dude. But at least your bad example can help her avoid some of your mistakes' which doesn't even work as she immediately repeats his 'run off half cocked to confront a Dark Lord' mistake from Empire, except this time it works out. Yoda also convinces Luke (he's lying, but still) that the Jedi texts are so worthless they're worth burning. It doesn't feel like Luke changes his mind or is proved wrong. He believes, pretty much correctly, that Rey has learned nothing from him except failure, and his last scene feels like at attempt at redemption, not a reclaiming of past success. He confesses his failings to Kylo and Leia, and then sacrifices himself so that the new generations (people that can achieve things, unlike him 'I can't save him') can live on.

I figured the Poe/rank thing was just a new demotion so he's introducing himself at his old rank out of habit, like when your name or job title changes and you still answer to the old one out of habit before it sinks in. Holdo doesn't know him well enough to realise it wasn't deliberate so it rubs her the wrong way.

Having watched Clones and Menace lately, I feel they're essentially good films that are over maligned, stuff like 'I don't like sand' is deliberately taken at its worst possible interpretation in order to jeer. (Anakin is from Tattooine, home to 'very dangerous' sandstorms)

 

[wander]

Be careful not to cut yourself on all that edge, Wander.




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[X-SOLDIER]

What's most interesting about the Prequels is that (some wooden acting notwithstanding), they're good films trapped inside George Lucas' terrible editing.




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[Ryushikaze]

Re Moviebob: It's an interesting perspective, but I'm not sure I believe it.

Spoiler

For that to work, there needs to be a counterargument made to the idea that the old Jedi were worthless failures. The closest we get is stealing the Jedi texts, which is easy to miss and doesn't affect anything in this movie itself.

Luke successfully convinces Rey that he's not worth learning anything from and she leaves. Yoda doesn't comfort him by talking about anything he's achieved, he basically says 'Yup, you're a total failure, dude. But at least your bad example can help her avoid some of your mistakes' which doesn't even work as she immediately repeats his 'run off half cocked to confront a Dark Lord' mistake from Empire, except this time it works out. Yoda also convinces Luke (he's lying, but still) that the Jedi texts are so worthless they're worth burning. It doesn't feel like Luke changes his mind or is proved wrong. He believes, pretty much correctly, that Rey has learned nothing from him except failure, and his last scene feels like at attempt at redemption, not a reclaiming of past success. He confesses his failings to Kylo and Leia, and then sacrifices himself so that the new generations (people that can achieve things, unlike him 'I can't save him') can live on.

I figured the Poe/rank thing was just a new demotion so he's introducing himself at his old rank out of habit, like when your name or job title changes and you still answer to the old one out of habit before it sinks in. Holdo doesn't know him well enough to realise it wasn't deliberate so it rubs her the wrong way.

Having watched Clones and Menace lately, I feel they're essentially good films that are over maligned, stuff like 'I don't like sand' is deliberately taken at its worst possible interpretation in order to jeer. (Anakin is from Tattooine, home to 'very dangerous' sandstorms)

I would take everything Bob says with a tatooine full of salt. He originally billed himself as the game overthinker, and it fits. Man overthinks literally everything. He wrote, in a book, that the console wars were like vietnam to him.

Yeah. Let that sink in.

 

[Shademp]

 

[X-SOLDIER]

That was a really good video, Shad. I think that it works pretty well with this one:

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[Lulcielid]

Palpatine screentime in the OT vs Snoke screentime in the ST (so far).

Give or take some seconds and the reaults are:

7 minutes 15 seconds vs 7 minutes 30 seconds.

 

[Clement Rage]

I hate everything would be more credible if he stopped making the exact same cheap shots he's complaining about regarding the prequels in the same breath. And that backlash was easily nine times worse than what we're getting now.

What's most interesting about the Prequels is that (some wooden acting notwithstanding), they're good films trapped inside George Lucas' terrible editing.

Their main flaw seems to be just not adhering to people's expectations, as far as I can tell. 'This doesn't match my headcanon'. People just go 'Jar Jar' or 'midichlorians' and don't elaborate further.

TLJ suffers from this as well, but I still feel like there are substantive issues as well that get glossed over in the backlash to the backlash.

Re terrible editing, would you like to elaborate? I'm not sure what you mean (not trying to trip you up, honestly interested here)

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Re terrible editing, would you like to elaborate? I'm not sure what you mean (not trying to trip you up, honestly interested here)

This video is the best summary of it, and it is well worth your time. It honestly VASTLY changed the way that I watched the prequels last year, and made me understand more about why there're so many fan attempts to "correct" those films with just editing, and why the original non-special editions are the films were better before George went and re-edited them.

After watching that, I rewatched the prequels and found that if I watched them like an editor that there's SO much that could be cleaned up with the exact same basic edits like the ones that saved A New Hope from being a disaster and turned it into one of the biggest cultural icons that it is today.





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[X-SOLDIER]

3 mins in. It looks like Rian Johnson got to work with the writer of the novelization to include some of the things that were cut / weren't able to be added in the film (Rose & Paige, Han Solo's funeral, Luke & Rey's 3rd lesson, etc). Really interested in seeing what that has in store.




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[Clement Rage]

Thank you very much. I often see 'bad editing' come up as a criticism (in general, not this discussion), but people rarely elaborate on why and how. So that was most helpful.

Still think the prequels deserve far more credit than they get, though. The hate is one of the most toxic things any fandom's ever done where no one died (as far as I know). Must get around to watching Sith.