Suspension of Disbelief and Good Fiction.

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Lord Noctis

Harbinger of Darkness
AKA
Caius Ballad
#26
So, you created a thread specificly to tell us our taste in fiction sucks? Why? Do you think we're going to change our tastes because you say so?
 

DLPB

Banned Flunky
AKA
Seifer Almasy, DanielReturns
#27
So, you created a thread specificly to tell us our taste in fiction sucks?
I did? News to me. But glad to see that you are now identifying "us" as the clique of yours. That is a start...

I created the thread to educate you, but that's beyond you. How many of you actually bothered watching that guys reviews and learning something? Hmmm.
 
AKA
Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
#28
Another macro I take it? It amazes me that you cant see how retarded those things make you look...
Wow, you are so perceptive you see things even when they aren't there :awesome:
 

Ⓐaron

Factiō Rēpūblicāna dēlenda est.
AKA
The Man, V
#29
I did? News to me. But glad to see that you are now identifying "us" as the clique of yours. That is a start...

I created the thread to educate you, but that's beyond you. How many of you actually bothered watching that guys reviews and learning something? Hmmm.
 

Lord Noctis

Harbinger of Darkness
AKA
Caius Ballad
#30
I did? News to me. But glad to see that you are now identifying "us" as the clique of yours. That is a start...

I created the thread to educate you, but that's beyond you. How many of you actually bothered watching that guys reviews and learning something? Hmmm.
Ok, so you want to educate us, fine. What makes you qualified to educate me, or anyone else here, about what is or is not good fiction? What precisely is it that makes your opinions and ideas better than mine or Dacon's?
 
AKA
Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
#31
What is this goddamn clique?

IF I HAD A CLIQUE THEY WOULD DO THINGS FOR ME
 

DLPB

Banned Flunky
AKA
Seifer Almasy, DanielReturns
#32
Ok, so you want to educate us, fine. What makes you qualified to educate me, or anyone else here, about what is or is not good fiction? What precisely is it that makes your opinions and ideas better than mine or Dacon's?
If I could explain that to you, I would. All I do know is, the amount of times I see a retarded post here is way above what I would call normal. Dacon for example, has no idea about the basic structure of fiction. I know that because I have seen his posts, and they demonstrate a lack of understanding that at first I put down to trolling. I am not talking about detailed arguments here, I am talking basic understanding that you should know when you are 10.

So why am I more qualified than him? Because I do understand. I have obviously read a shit load more on it and understand the debate far better. I don't need a badge to tell me that I know what I am on about and he doesnt. It is as plain as a pair of tits.

Go and watch the reviews and if after you have finished, you are disagreeing with that guy on a lot of stuff he says, watch it again and again until it sinks in. That reviewer by the way, understands it more than me in a lot of places, and actually educated me as well.
 
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Lord Noctis

Harbinger of Darkness
AKA
Caius Ballad
#34
If I could explain that to you, I would. All I do know is, the amount of times I see a retarded post here is way above what I would call normal. Dacon for example, has no idea about the basic structure of fiction. I know that because I have seen his posts, and they demonstrate a lack of understanding that at first I put down to trolling.

So why am I more qualified than him? Because I do understand. I have obviously read a shit load more on it and understand the debate far better. I don't need a badge to tell me that I know what I am on about and he doesnt. It is as plain as a pair of tits.
I've never notcied a lack of udnerstanding in his posts.

But regardless, you say you understand what makes good fiction, and in your mind I'm certain you do. However, have you considered that what you judge to be good fiction or bad fiction is not exactly the same as what other people consider to be good or bad? If so have you further considered that maybe that doesn't have to do so much with a lack of proper understanding so much as a difference in taste? One mans treasure is anothers garbage.
 

Ⓐaron

Factiō Rēpūblicāna dēlenda est.
AKA
The Man, V
#35
If there were an objective manner to determine what is good fiction and what is bad fiction (which there isn't), and you understood this objective manner, you wouldn't need to link to some random site on the internet to explain what good fiction is. You'd be able to explain it in your own words.
 

DLPB

Banned Flunky
AKA
Seifer Almasy, DanielReturns
#36
Well that's a very good post. (Apart from not seeing lack of understanding in Dacons posts that is)

You are correct, that it is each person who enjoys what they enjoy. That is opinion. Bad taste does exist though. But... you are right. We all like different things and that's not the issue.

The issue is, that certain things, even if you like them, are flawed. It is possible to like something which is poorly made or developed or has many flaws. AC for example, it isn't an opinion that AC is poorly made from a story point of view. It is a fact.

It has got so many things wrong with it, not least the fact that development and story are really basic, that although you are free to like the film, you can't just dismiss the faults.

It is 1 long battle sequence after another, trying to make up for the fact that nothing is happening. A study of AC would expose it for so many things it isn't funny. It has broke so many fundamentals of story telling... including... telling a proper story with proper narrative and dialogue.

Sure, it isn't all bad. Sure, you can still enjoy it. But that doesn't alter the fact that it got so many things wrong.

If you look at the reviews that guy has done of Star Wars, you will see how he rips its soul apart and exposes it for just how BAD it is. And it IS bad... it is no opinion. But does that mean people can't like it?

Hell no. Personal preference and how good a fiction is, are not the same thing.

If there were an objective manner to determine what is good fiction and what is bad fiction (which there isn't), and you understood this objective manner, you wouldn't need to link to some random site on the internet to explain what good fiction is. You'd be able to explain it in your own words.


Except I can, and I come to nearly all the conclusions he does, because they are facts. Plot holes, bad dialogue, lack of exposition, over use of special effects arent just something you dream up... they are real and provable.
 
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AKA
Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
#38
Someone with such a poor grasp on grammar shouldn't try to impose themselves as the barometer for good literature.

YEAH I SAID IT.
 
AKA
The Engineer
#39
It should be mentioned that there is no such thing as a flawless movie/book/game.

What determines whether a person sees a movie/book/game as good or not depends on what type of flaws they are okay with and how they overlook them.
 

DLPB

Banned Flunky
AKA
Seifer Almasy, DanielReturns
#40
AC:

Dialogue is poor.
Exposition is poor
Story is basic
use of special effects is too long and at the expense of story
No attempts made to explain certain events (like Rufus surviving, and getting up from his wheel chair)

Characters are "just there", we dont know anything about loz or the others. All we know is they are there. We feel nothing for them. The only reason we can feel something for the established characters is because we played VII. That's not a good thing, if it has to rely on the previous installment. It is a flaw.

Denzel. Why should I feel anything for him? He is just some kid. Nothing explained.

I would have to go through Advent Children and doa review voice over. You know what! I WILL.

and I havent seen ACC. I cant see it making a difference either.
 
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#41
First of all, have you watched AC Complete or not? Because it explains Denzel. Second, I thought this was obvious, but Rufus being decrepit was a facade.
 

Lord Noctis

Harbinger of Darkness
AKA
Caius Ballad
#42
Well that's a very good post. (Apart from not seeing lack of understanding in Dacons posts that is)

You are correct, that it is each person who enjoys what they enjoy. That is opinion. Bad taste does exist though. But... you are right. We all like different things and that's not the issue.

The issue is, that certain things, even if you like them, are flawed. It is possible to like something which is poorly made or developed or has many flaws. AC for example, it isn't an opinion that AC is poorly made from a story point of view. It is a fact.

It has got so many things wrong with it, not least the fact that development and story are really basic, that although you are free to like the film, you can't just dismiss the faults.

It is 1 long battle sequence after another, trying to make up for the fact that nothing is happening. A study of AC would expose it for so many things it isn't funny. It has broke so many fundamentals of story telling... including... telling a proper story with proper narrative and dialogue.

Sure, it isn't all bad. Sure, you can still enjoy it. But that doesn't alter the fact that it got so many things wrong.

If you look at the reviews that guy has done of Star Wars, you will see how he rips its soul apart and exposes it for just how BAD it is. And it IS bad... it is no opinion. But does that mean people can't like it?

Hell no. Personal preference and how good a fiction is, are not the same thing.





Except I can, and I come to nearly all the conclusions he does, because they are facts. Plot holes, bad dialogue, lack of exposition, over use of special effects arent just something you dream up... they are real and provable.
But one could argue that if a person enjoys a movie, even a heavily flawed one, then that movie is good for that individual. Its true that things like plot holes and poor dialogue can harm a film, and make it unappealing to many many people. But if you enjoy the piece of fiction in question then it is good for you, just not for everyone else.
 

Ⓐaron

Factiō Rēpūblicāna dēlenda est.
AKA
The Man, V
#44
Except I can, and I come to nearly all the conclusions he does, because they are facts. Plot holes, bad dialogue, lack of exposition, over use of special effects arent just something you dream up... they are real and provable.
See, no, everything you mentioned is subjective. William S. Burroughs wrote books where large portions of the plot weren't even explained. They were regarded as revolutionary. By your standards that would make them "bad fiction" despite the fact that the writing was so incendiary it wound up inspiring a whole new generation of writers.

"Bad dialogue" is completely subjective. Writing that one person finds terrible might be superb to another. Apart from obvious things like poor grammar (which is all over the place in your posts, I might add), there's really no objective criteria for "bad dialogue." Not even "realistic dialogue" necessarily means "good dialogue"; reviewers have constantly noted that no one speaks in Don DeLillo like people actually speak in real life, but that hasn't stopped them from being extremely highly regarded by critics and other writers.

"Lack of exposition" might be regarded as a strength by some readers. Some people don't want to read two hundred pages of backstory when they come into a novel; they want to get right into the action.

As for "over use [sic] of special effects," who's to say what's overuse?

So no, nothing you mentioned is at all an objective criterion for determining whether fiction is good or bad, since for starters nothing you mentioned can even be evaluated objectively. And unsurprisingly, you once again declared that you were right without bothering to prove it in the slightest.
 

Lord Noctis

Harbinger of Darkness
AKA
Caius Ballad
#45
AC:



and I havent seen ACC. I cant see it making a difference either.
Also don't you think this might be a bit of aflawed assumption to make. True AC was very poorly made, but can you realy say for sure that ACC is just as bad without watching it first?
 

DLPB

Banned Flunky
AKA
Seifer Almasy, DanielReturns
#47
It isn't going to make any difference whatsoever. It was a turd to begin with., It would be like changing a few edits in star wars PM and trying to claim its vastly better.
 

DLPB

Banned Flunky
AKA
Seifer Almasy, DanielReturns
#48
Also don't you think this might be a bit of aflawed assumption to make. True AC was very poorly made, but can you realy say for sure that ACC is just as bad without watching it first?

yes I can.

as for theman, I ignored your whole post after the first sentence. The post I made was not an opinion. It was a fact. Plot holes, and such are real things which can be demonstrated, Stop arguing with that. Now.
 
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#50
You are right that if you hate it will not change your mind. But it is unequivocally better from a story point of view and your unwillingness to consider does not do wonders for your position.
 
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