Synopsis of History of Deepground

[The Twilight Mexican]

Perhaps they did.

As for the other matter, the same word was used in Japanese for Sephiroth Copies and Genesis Copies. The original game's English localization rendered this word as "clone," but the word was (ironically) the English word "copy" in both cases and the process was achieved the same way in both cases (via a transfer of cells from their namesake).

Hollander doesn't physically resemble Genesis because, according to the CC Complete Guide, the cells he used on himself were Gillian's cells, left over from the process in which her cells were given to Genesis as a fetus. He also demonstrates rapid degradation and only a small wing because of his comparatively weak physical form.

Had the Tsviets received Genesis's actual cells, they would be Genesis Copies, and, like all those SOLDIERs before them, should have received his degradation as well. Even Angeal's more stable cells led to degradation in Lazard.

 

[S and G]

As for the other matter, the same word was used in Japanese for Sephiroth Copies and Genesis Copies. The original game's English localization rendered this word as "clone," but the word was (ironically) the English word "copy" in both cases and the process was achieved the same way in both cases (via a transfer of cells from their namesake).

Yeah, I kinda figured this would have been the case originally, but I kinda like the unintentional distinction as it makes it easier for reference purposes.

Hollander doesn't physically resemble Genesis because, according to the CC Complete Guide, the cells he used on himself were Gillian's cells, left over from the process in which her cells were given to Genesis as a fetus. He also demonstrates rapid degradation and only a small wing because of his comparatively weak physical form.

Of course, how silly of me.

Had the Tsviets received Genesis's actual cells, they would be Genesis Copies, and, like all those SOLDIERs before them, should have received his degradation as well. Even Angeal's more stable cells led to degradation in Lazard.

Your reasoning is sound. Like I said before, I lumped cellular transplants and genetic mapping together under 'exposure to G-Cells', but your arguments have since shown that the two should and must be made distinct. I will be sure to do that when I edit the article.

 

[Roger]

Pretty sure the the experiments came before the genetic mapping - especially in the case of Nero

I'd say so. Lost Force, Deepground's cream of the crop before Weiss and the others came into adulthood didn't appear to be Tsviets and Genesis joined SOLDIER at about 15ish. Mapping Genesis' genetic material onto their strongest and most successful experiments probably only got started when he came back to Shinra. Inspired by it though they were, Project G was still considered a failure before then.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I know we all agreed a while ago that the Tsviets couldn't have been injected with Genesis's actual cells, but I thought I'd let everyone know we can confirm that. I've been looking at some scans of the CC Ultimania and see that the book's Scenario Q&A mentioned only "the Genesis element" (ジェネシスの因&#23376, whereas when they're referring to cells, they use 細胞 (e.g. Jenova cells/ジェノバ細胞 and S cells/S細&#32990.

Here's a scan from pg. 546:
http://imgur.com/3xJOX3a.jpg

因子 is used when talking about genes -- for example, the first sentence of the Japanese Wikipedia article on genes is:

遺伝子（いでんし）は生物の遺伝情報を担う主要因子であると考えられている。

"Genes are the primary element thought to carry the genetic information of living things."

Meanwhile, in Crisis Core, Hollander explains his deterioration as being due to injecting himself with Genesis's actual cells (ジェネシスの細&#32990.

So, yeah, consider it 100% confirmed that the Tsviets had some element of Genesis's genes mapped onto them rather than were injected with his cells.

 

[Shademp]

*STANDING OVATIONS*

You are the definition of AWESOME, Sir Tres.

 

[S and G]

Thank you for taking the time to look into that.

 

[Skan]

Has someone confirmed that Genesis doesn't actually have Jenova cells? Iirc, he had Gillian's genes mapped onto him, which would at best mean that he's got Jenova-like cells, but not actual Jenova-cells. (I also imagine neither he nor Angeal were injected with Jenova cells like regular SOLDIERs during their application process, if only because the scientists would have liked to see how they did compared to the other SOLDIERs/Sephiroth).

 

[Obsidian Fire]

^^It's canon that Shin-Ra thinks Angeal and Genesis are failiers of the G-Project branch. So Shin-Ra doesn't have any reason to not treat them as normal people. It's highly implied that Genesis started having problems with degredation because the process of making SOLDIERs started playing with what was done to him as a kid.

Might want to check out the Crisis Core ultimania...

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I just double checked the CC Ultimania's Scenario Q&A. It doesn't specify whether they received Jenova's cells as adults. Just that Genesis received Gillian's genes (ジリアンの因&#23376 as opposed to her cells.

Personally, I've always assumed that they would have received them as adults for the same reason you mentioned, Obsidian. Of course, Angeal would have likely already had them, what with growing in Gillian's womb.

 

[S and G]

I just double checked the CC Ultimania's Scenario Q&A. It doesn't specify whether they received Jenova's cells as adults. Just that Genesis received Gillian's genes (ジリアンの因&#23376 as opposed to her cells.

Personally, I've always assumed that they would have received them as adults for the same reason you mentioned, Obsidian. Of course, Angeal would have likely already had them, what with growing in Gillian's womb.

Wasn't the entire point of the second half of Crisis Core that Genesis was trying to use S-Cells to stop the degradation? Was it not stated that J-Cells and S-Cells are pretty much the same thing?

At Modeoheim, Hollander states that only he knows how to stop the degradation, to which Genesis casually replies "Jenova cells" as if he had discovered the secret. That suggests to me that he did not receive J-Cells as an adult if at all.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Well, yeah, but it also seemed like Hollander was making stuff up as he went along so that Genesis would keep him alive. At first he says they need Jenova's cells, and when that doesn't work, he says they need "the last pure S cells" or some nonsense.

Maybe Hollander really believed it, though.

Anywho, they may not have received anything as adults. Like I said, I've always assumed they did since Shin-Ra thought they were normal beforehand, but we don't actually know for sure.

 

[S and G]

I still want to know what Genesis' epithet was. All this "it remains a secret for now" then doing nothing with it saddens me

 

[Skan]

Did ShinRa actually think they were normal though? First of all, the two of them were clearly still kept under surveillance during their childhood, and you don't typically ... keep an eye on normal people. Second of all, as far as I understand it, they were deemed failures specifically because they didn't exhibit any Ancient-powers (whatever those are) while Sephiroth did -- but that doesn't necessarily mean that ShinRa thought they were normal.

I guess my mind is having a hard time grasping why they'd be treated as "normal SOLDIERs" when ShinRa could've had a lark collecting more data on two not-as-successful experiments.

Also, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but Angeal would not have started degrading? Hollander seems convinced that he won't, but after Zack's fight, he looks awfully ... old and dying, not just dying. Plus, his copies certainly degrade.

Obsidian: Could you point out to me where it is implied that Genesis's degradation was spurred on by the SOLDIER treatments?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Did ShinRa actually think they were normal though? First of all, the two of them were clearly still kept under surveillance during their childhood, and you don't typically ... keep an eye on normal people. Second of all, as far as I understand it, they were deemed failures specifically because they didn't exhibit any Ancient-powers (whatever those are) while Sephiroth did -- but that doesn't necessarily mean that ShinRa thought they were normal.

The people keeping them under surveillance lied to Shin-Ra about their abilities. Genesis's parents didn't want them to be SOLDIERs.

 

[Skan]

^ Can you source that for me?

I understand that Gillian definitely didn't want Angeal joining SOLDIER. The only thing I could find is the following off the Q&A:

It was Genesis’ foster parents duty to observe him, and to stay in communication with ShinRa. It is feasible that Genesis received an education from ShinRa because of his parents. However Genesis’ [sic: parents???] feelings had changed, and it can be surmised that they came to a point where they didn’t mind deceiving ShinRa for the sake of their son. On the other hand, since Gillian considered a relationship with ShinRa to be foolish, she completely refused to allow Angeal to go into SOLDIER’s special training. At any rate, they weren’t given the systematic specialized education for becoming a SOLDIER and their relation to ShinRa was still kept secret.

I'd always assumed that "they didn't mind deceiving ShinRa" to be a nod towards the scene in CC where Zack told Genesis that they were his parents, so they would've lied to ShinRa for him anyways. In any case, the English translation at least doesn't say anything about Genesis's parents not wanting him to join SOLDIER, just that at some point they were willing to lie for him and that Genesis never received specialized SOLDIER training. (It seems if it were certain that Genesis's parents didn't want him to join, the answer would've been more clear-cut, as in Gillian's case, but it could be a translation issue. I'd more or less assumed Genesis's parents were indifferent towards SOLDIER while Gillian was against it.)

They certainly weren't forced/purposefully scouted by ShinRa for SOLDIER. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the scientists over there wouldn't take the opportunity to gather more potentially interesting data once they present themselves.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

That's the bit I was referencing. I took it to mean they lied to Shin-Ra about Genesis and Angeal's abilities, so the Turks never came to test them until they decided to join on their own.

 

[Clement Rage]

Maybe this was answered already, but I have a question. Building up DG numbers required lots of kidnapping. But who actually did the kidnappings? The Turks did some, but it's implied they didn't know about the project. They had to kidnap lots of SOLDIERs... but SOLDIERs aren't easy marks. If you send less than Tsviet level troops, they might escape. Tsviets don't seem capable of the necessary subtlety to avoid leaving traces. And there aren't enough of them to do it consistently, so I'm confused. There aren't many Restrictors either.

 

[Blade]

Just finished reading this amazing topic. Kudos all around for all the hard work.

I don't think Lost Force had a problem doing their own dirty work, since the restriction chips basically meant their orders were unquestionable for a long time.

Shelke's situation was that she was going to get recruited for SOLDIER anyway, Deepground just got to her first, so there's some kind of competition going on between Turks, SOLDIER, and Deepground SOLDIER.

Also I'm wondering about Nero and Weiss. They're brothers, yet it was said that Nero consumed his mother when he was born.

I assume Weiss is his "older" brother and born a couple years before him? I'm surprised there's no resentment from Weiss for Nero killing his mother.

Another thing I want to know is... WHAT HAPPENED TO ROSSO!?!?!

Cloud fought her and then.... ?????

Nobody knows what happened. People assumed she died, but this is post-Advent Children Cloud we're talking about, he purged his Jenova Cells, right? Cloud doesn't fight/kill unless he has to I'd think... and Rosso is elite.

Did she just disappear to parts unknown?

 

[Shademp]

Did she just disappear to parts unknown?

She went the "fall into darkness" route after Vincent defeated her in Dirge of Cerberus, with the audience supposed to assume that she died. Almost like Azul, except Azul's death was even closer to the fall-down-dark-hole trope.

As for what happened after Cloud and Rosso clashed swords, anything could have happened. What is clear is that neither were defeated/killed. If we want, we can imagine Cloud having a lengthy duel with Rosso.

 

[Roger]

Maybe this was answered already, but I have a question. Building up DG numbers required lots of kidnapping. But who actually did the kidnappings? The Turks did some, but it's implied they didn't know about the project. They had to kidnap lots of SOLDIERs... but SOLDIERs aren't easy marks. If you send less than Tsviet level troops, they might escape. Tsviets don't seem capable of the necessary subtlety to avoid leaving traces. And there aren't enough of them to do it consistently, so I'm confused. There aren't many Restrictors either.

Their marks were founded SOLDIERs and wounded normal soldiers who seemed to have potential and they probably get a good number of people that recruit for SOLDIER and there are people just born in Deepground like Nero and Weiss.

 

[Blade]

I still like to believe Rosso is still alive somewhere and that she ran in to Genesis somewhere down in the depths of the Planet (cuz a hot redhead like her is probably not gonna die that easily methinks).

*is waiting for an FFVII sequel*

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah, it really makes no sense that the fall should kill her unless Vince had already fatally wounded her and her pride demanded she at least deprive him of the opportunity to deliver the killing blow.

At any rate, it was directed such that we are supposed to accept that it killed her. Also seems kind of unlikely that Vince wouldn't have just watched her fall all the way down and confirmed she was dead before moving on, or that the WRO wouldn't have searched for her body later.

 

[Shademp]

Plus it feels entirely pointless to resurrect Rosso after Dirge of Cerberus. She would only return to follow the orders of Weiss and to be another boss battle. Aside from that there are no interesting consequences in the narrative if she survived.

There ain't much point in Weiss either, but at least the secret ending projected that Weiss will survive in one form or another. "It is not yet time for slumber. We still have much work to do...my brother." Rosso doesn't have this sort of prediction attached to her.

 

[Blade]

Maybe not, but she followed Weiss and was loyal to him for a while, right?

I'm sure there's some ideas going around for what will happen "After Omega".

 

[Roger]

We will still need minibosses in the next game. I'd rather have Rosso then characters that can take on AVALANCHE come outta nowhere.