Synopsis of History of Deepground

[EX_SOLDIER]

Thanks guys, it's always nice to know your work is appreciated. You guys have helped share with me a great amount of things about the compilation that I didn't know, so it's only fair. I just seem to have accumulated some pretty rare stuff in the last couple of years. To be honest, I don't know why I didn't think to post this sooner. It's been sitting unused for about six months. What an arse. I'll try to get the rest written asap.



I didn't know that was on the international version either. I take it they weren't subbed officially? I downloaded the vids from youtube ages ago so never really bothered. I have a mammoth archive of pics though (I think I sent you them Mako :/) but they were copied from a Japanese site so even though there are no site graffiti on them, I don't think it would be fair to post them. As for ripping them, well...let's just say my advice would be about as useful as using your cock as a bungee rope.

Hey, thanks is due to you from me. I got a good education on the Tsviets about info I had no idea of. Much appreciated my friend. I guess the rest just falls in place with DOC.

 

[guisado]

Hi i have a doubt, Shelke have G-cells or jenova cells too? thanks!

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Probably neither. She was never a regular SOLDIER, so she wouldn't have received Jenova cells, and Deepground SOLDIERs didn't get cell injections of any kind.

 

[guisado]

Probably neither. She was never a regular SOLDIER, so she wouldn't have received Jenova cells, and Deepground SOLDIERs didn't get cell injections of any kind.

But in the article of S & G say :

As well as having the ability to SND, Shelke was later exposed to Jenova cells and their reaction with the Mako in her body caused great physical enhancement. Training within the Deepground SOLDIER regime, she was taught to fight with energy sabres designed by Argento. Her petite stature and nimble movements made Shelke a tough opponent, and over time she proved herself worthy of the rank of Tsviet. However, due to her body’s Mako weakness and need for Mako baths, she was unable to participate in regular battles or field missions outside Deepground. With her SND skills proving invaluable to the Tsviets, Shelke was successfully infused with G-Cells, and became the fourth member of the Coloured Tsviets with a codename that reflected her ability; ‘Shelke the Transparent’.


She have G-cells yeah¿

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

You'll need to ask S and G what his source for all that is. Shelke should never have received Jenova cells, nor should she have received any cells from Genesis.

As we went over in the thread you made about Weiss, the Tsviets had Genesis's genes mapped onto them, but they did not receive any of his genetic material. I'll send S and G a message and ask him to look at this thread.

 

[S and G]

Please be aware that much of that article was written after extensive research and translating so while I am confident that over 95% of it is accurate, there are possible errors. In addition, the final edit was not made by me but by Makoeyes, so there may be additions or amendments to it that I didn't write.

I would have to check back over my notes to confirm certain aspects so my answer is based on memory alone and therefore can be argued with.

As far as I can recollect, Weiss is special within DG as he is 'pure', and has not been tainted by Jenova cells. The very fact that he is singled out by this suggests that everyone else of SOLDIER status, regardless of whether they are DG-based or not, has some form of Jenova as part of their genetic makeup. I disagree with Hawkeye's comments and would think that Shelke is included in that.

However, without consulting my notes, I could be mistaken.

DG SOLDIERs differ genetically from regular SOLDIERs because of the levels of Mako in their bodies (they require uniforms that provide a constant dose of Mako which is topped up daily in Mako baths). Shelke is an extreme case of this. SOLDIERs are as strong as they are by balancing Mako and Jenova during the 'surgery' that makes them that way. Weiss is the exception and his abilities without the addition of Jenova make him so special.

The Crisis Core Ultimania states that the Tsviets with coloured epithets were injected with Genesis' genes, and are thus considered his 'hellspawn'. Hawkeye explained in the other thread the difference between genes and cells. I suspect there has been a translation issue at my end when I wrote the article whereby 'genes' and 'cells' have been lumped together and called G-Cells.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I can't recall -- and checking our site's translations doesn't mention anything of the sort -- any time in which Weiss was singled out for not having Jenova cells. His 10th AU profile doesn't, and the interview from the DC Complete Guide doesn't mention it:

http://thelifestream.net/lifestream...irge-of-cerberus-interview-with-the-creators/

What I do notice being here, though, is that a profile for regular SOLDIERs will specify that they receive both mako and Jenova while a profile for Deepground SOLDIERs in the same book will mention the mako their bodies need to stay alive.

For example, in the 10th AU:

http://thelifestream.net/lifestream...nal-fantasy-vii-series-terms-and-definitions/

And if you look at the term list from the DC Complete Guide, the regular soldiers are again specified as receiving mako and Jenova. Deepground's SOLDIERs don't have their own entry, but the entry for Deepground itself just focuses on the radical and inhumane experimentation associated with Deepground.

Worth noticing, though, is that SOLDIER and Deepground are consistently specified to have existed before Genesis. It was after his birth that Deepground, originally a SOLDIER medical facility, became what we know it as today. Meaning there were SOLDIERs enhanced only with mako before there were SOLDIERs enhanced with both mako and Jenova.

Particularly given that Deepground SOLDIERs seem less impressive than regular SOLDIERs, relying mostly on machine guns and similar weaponry, it stands to reason Deepground SOLDIERs wouldn't have Jenova cells as well. Those Deepground SOLDIERs armed only with a sword and dressed like regular SOLDIERs that Vincent encountered would likely be the survivors of the regular SOLDIER units mentioned in the DC Complete Guide's term list as having joined Deepground after Meteorfall.

And, really, if the entire population of Deepground had suffered from Geostigma, you would think it would have been mentioned as a matter of significance somewhere. Or that whoever was in that chopper Vincent sent into the mako inside the no. 0 reactor would have fucked things up right there by contaminating Hojo's carefully crafted stream of pure mako with Jenova.

For a number of reasons, it only makes sense that Jenova wasn't a standard application for Deepground SOLDIERs.

 

[Shademp]

I can't recall -- and checking our site's translations doesn't mention anything of the sort -- any time in which Weiss was singled out for not having Jenova cells. His 10th AU profile doesn't, and the interview from the DC Complete Guide doesn't mention it

I think the source behind the idea that Weiss does not have Jenova cells, and that this was important when choosing Omega's host, derives from Hojo's comments after Vincent defeats Weiss.

- Weiss's Last Breath

The video has no subtitles and Hojo's lines are slightly difficult to hear, but I booted up my own copy and activated the cutscene with subtitles. Thusly...

Hojo: Why!?
Why is Omega's power fading? Why?


(Nero) Weiss...


Hojo: What is going on?

*Nero's ghost rises from Weiss*

Nero: Weiss.

Hojo: Impossible!

*flashback to Nero dying and then his spirit infecting Weiss*

Hojo: Get out of me!

Hojo: Omega's host must be pure!

Hojo: Why do you think I had you
create mako untainted by Jenova!?

Hojo: If a filthy being like you infected it...

Nero: Silence.

It is not the direct claim we might want, but the implication is that Weiss can only be a pure host for Omega if he does not have Jenova cells (and if there is no stagnated mako present). But again, it is only strongly implied.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Of course he doesn't have them and could only be a pure host as such, but it doesn't indicate that this is true of he alone in Deepground. That's the point of contention on the table.

Hojo speaks of making a stream of pure mako, free of Jenova's taint, and, thus, without anyone who had suffered from Geostigma (e.g. the unfortunate Kalm residents gunned down at the beginning rather than kidnapped). So, that brings me back to my earlier point that the pilot(s) of that Dragonfly Vincent sent into the mako stream would have ruined everything right then and there had they possessed Jenova cells.

I really don't think there's any evidence pointing to the Deepground SOLDIERs having the cells, with exception to those few Jenova-type SOLDIERs who joined after Meteorfall. All the rest are clearly less impressive physically, and the SOLDIER program they sprung from pre-dated Jenova-type SOLDIERs.

 

[Shademp]

Oh, sorry. I must not have been quite awake when I read the posts.


On the topic of this article, there are many claims about Argento that I'd wish to see removed from the essay, if they can't be confirmed.

During the Wutai War, as part of a mass influx of individuals into Deepground due to Shinra’s desire to further genetic warfare, a young woman named Argento was sent to Deepground. She quickly became highly regarded by her peers for her exceptional sword and analytical kills. Climbing the ranks of Deepground SOLDIER using honed ability and intelligence, she achieved Tsviet status, and became of special interest to the Restrictors. They were impressed by her sword expertise which led to one member challenging her to a training duel. The battle ended in bloodshed for Argento, however, when she lost her right eye to the blade of the Restrictor.

In addition to this, her artistic and creative mind was put to use when she was charged with the task of designing and crafting the weapons of her comrades at the upper-echelons of the Deepground food chain, including Rosso’s double-bladed lance capable of bursts of fire, and twin gunblades named ‘Heaven’ and ‘Earth’ for Weiss. Unbeknownst to the Restrictors, Argento silently began to harbor resentful feelings towards them.

Communicating his thoughts to the Coloured Tsviets through Argento, the Restrictors’ messenger to the Tsviets and sympathiser to the cause, Weiss divulged his scheme to use someone not restrained by the restriction chip to infiltrate Lost Force.

I have found no confirmation of Argento being transferred to Deepground during the Wutai War, nor that she is the one who made the Tsviet weapons. Also, while the last claim "Communicating his thoughts to the Coloured Tsviets through Argento, the Restrictors’ messenger to the Tsviets and sympathiser to the cause", makes sense, the methods and exact channels in which the scheme was communicated is not shown. We know that Argento is a sympathizer, from this playonline mode scene, where Shelke's and Argento's scheming is hinted at at the end, but that's all.



There is also this thing about Genesis which bothers me.

Aware of their cellular connection to the man and the high importance of the mission given their involvement, Weiss explained the situation in Deepground to Genesis and asked him to join them in their fight against the Restrictors. Remorseful of his actions since leading the mass SOLDIER desertion and wishing to reclaim his pride as a SOLDIER by atoning for his sins, Genesis rejected the request. Leaving Deepground soon after arriving, he sealed himself in a chamber below Midgar, only to be awoken when the Planet needed him again.

Highlighted in bold, I have seen no confirmation of Genesis being honestly remorseful. The cause for his rejection of Deepground is unknown, as far as my knowledge goes.


I would very much like to see the Deepground History article updated, both with edits and referenced sources at the end. /academical mode

 

[S and G]

Okay, so I have gone back over some of my notes and have answers to some of these points but not necessarily for others. Please keep in mind the original article was written many years ago when I was much more in-tune with what was going on than I am now. As such, it is probable that answers from the article are probably more relevant than the ones I’m giving here. I am very much open to the possibility that I am mistaken in parts.

DG SOLDIERs’ J-Cell Exposure

Firstly, on the point of cell exposure, Tres has made a strong case above regarding whether or not DG SOLDIERs were exposed to Jenova cells. Having reviewed the scripts and all my notes, I can confirm that it is never stated anywhere that DG SOLDIERs were exposed to Jenova cells. Conversely, it is never stated anywhere that they are not. The only genetic trait commented on is the high quantity of Mako in their bodies.

The 10th Anniversary Ultimania has this to say:

The members belonging to DG are special SOLDIERs which have undergone rigorous experiments. They are only commanded to get stronger and everyday they stand side-by-side with death. Because of the experiments, they must depend upon mako baths or they cannot preserve their bodies, and they need it so much that a weak stream of mako flows through their suits.

(Please note at this time that the term ‘experiments’ refers heavily to the training battles that the SOLDIERs face rather than anything medical or otherwise. This is reflected in a Restrictor’s use of the term in Event 10 – ‘‘E’ for Emperor’ when he describes Weiss’ “experiment” as a handicap match against Azul and Rosso.)

Bear in mind that there are continuity errors regarding what happens to individuals exposed to high degrees of Mako when they die. Former SOLDIERs, for example, such as Zack and Sephiroth are seen to fade to spirit energy very soon after death, while the same is not always true for DG SOLDIERs despite their elevated exposure. During DC: Online, there is even comment by Este-D that the is a SOLDIER 'waste disposal' where dead bodies can be found. Why would that exist if people fade quickly? I would hazard a guess that this is more of an oversight than anything, but valid to my next point.

Tres very astutely pointed out that the Dragonfly chopper that crashes into the Mako swell in DG would have contained DG SOLDIERs, thus any trace of Jenova would disrupt Hojo's plan, and by deduction, they cannot contain Jenova. In addition, what would have happened if all DG was afflicted by Geostigma? Clever points but I do have a few counter arguments:

1) As discussed above, there are several continuity errors regarding the bodies of DG SOLDIERs and this isolated incident cannot be considered in my opinion to have a bearing on the overall story.
2) Hojo ordered that those with Geostigma are not added to the pure Mako. However, this does not mean that any drop of Jenova cells will ruin it, it simply means that the proportion needs to be high enough that the healthy have to be differentiated.
3) He makes a big deal about Nero tainting Weiss because Weiss is the shell, not necessarily because he is a single strand of stagnant Mako.
4) During On the Way to a Smile, I'm sure it mentions in Case of Yuffie or Case of Nanaki (though, I'm not 100% on this) that those worst afflicted by Geostigma are those without a strong sense of self. This reflects the SOLDIER process whereby Mako poisoning can occur for those with 'weak' minds. It could therefore be argued that SOLDIERs may not suffer the same physical aggravations brought about by Geostigma as they have already shown a tolerance to Jenova cells and Mako. We already know that one of the reasons Cloud suffers from it is through his guilt towards Aerith.

While these stories pre-date the creation of Dirge of Cerberus, it is stated in both Final Fantasy VII and Advent Children that ALL SOLDIERs "have Jenova cells put inside them". However, this could easily be a continuity error or a reflection of the fact neither Cloud nor Marlene know about DG's existence. That being said, I don't think it makes a great of sense to discount the probability that DG SOLDIERs also have Jenova exposure given that modern-day SOLDIER revolves around that genetic enhancement.

Here is Souya's original translation:

Deepground

A secret facility that is built underneath Midgar
Even in Shinra, there is only a few who know of its existence

That place, it ignores and defies all morals,
"To what extent will humans become stronger?"
That experiment and research has been undergoing for a long time......

Those who are being abducted and brought to this place......
Those who are injured and being transported to this place......
Those who are as far back as one can remember......
Those who appeared in that place on a certain day all of a sudden......
Those who know what that place is......
Those who don't know anything......

Various people are gathered there.

Deepground...... Shinra's Dark Secret......

To have an entire military community made up of all sorts of people, some of whom were injured SOLDIERs or trapped there after Meteorfall, challenging one another to test the boundaries of human capability, all while not actually using the genetic enhancements available (that said normal SOLDIERs would already have) seems a bit off. But, it could be argued that this was all part of the 'experiments'.

In addition, we know that Rosso, Nero and Azul are all the sole survivors of their respective experiments (to push the boundaries of humanity, stagnant Mako injected into an unborn child, and the Metamorphose Project), so I'm not sold on the idea that the 'Reapers' who have the chance to make it all the way to Tsviet rank are without any enhancement beyond Mako. Shelke would obviously fall into this - particularly as she does not specialise in combat so compromises would have to be made.

Anyway, the point is that it's all open to interpretation as there are plot holes and inconsistencies everywhere. My vote is that the DG SOLDIERs except Weiss have been exposed to Jenova cells at some point, as it would make sense to enhance them with things other than just Mako, though none seem to possess alternative attributes.

DG SOLDIERs' G-Cell Exposure

The Crisis Core Ultimania has this to say:

Section 7: Connections with the DC Secret Movie

Q7-1: In DC's G Reports, it says that "G", one of the 'two taboos', bears an epithet signifying 'unique'. What does this mean?

A7-1: The 'two taboos' refers to Sephiroth and Genesis. In comparison to Sephiroth, the strongest and worst SOLDIER who tried to seize the life of the planet, Genesis was considered a unique SOLDIER who sealed himself away to protect the planet.

The Shinra Company, in an effort to conceal the relationship between the company and Genesis who had threatened the world, relegated information regarding Genesis to the highest level of secrecy and forbids even the use of the name 'Genesis'. Thus some of the scientists who knew detailed information on Genesis began to refer to Genesis as "G, to whom has been added a word signifying 'unique.'" This is just like how Weiss, Nero, Rosso and Azul were given codenames corresponding to colours.

As for what exactly the name meaning 'unique' is, that's a secret at present.Q7-2: In DC it is said that "the appearance of G changed the course of Deepground (DG)" and "SOLDIERs branded with epithets of colour are the hell spawn of G". Does this mean that Weiss and the other Tsviets with colour epithets who were created in DG were created using the results of Project G for reference?

A7-2: Yes. Only the DG SOLDIERs who have been injected with Genesis' genes could become a Tsviet with a colour epithet.

Q7-3: You call tell from the voices that the two men who appear by helicopter and recover Genesis are DC's Nero and Weiss, but what do they mean when they say "apparently he's a brother of ours" and "however... will he agree to it?"? From DC's hidden movie you can interpret that Genesis has been laid to rest in the cave under Midgar up until he awakens, but...?

A7-3: The 'elder brother' is used in the figurative sense. If they are injected with Genesis' genes, that creates a connection, a bond between the cellular units. That is what is meant by 'brother'.

Tres also made a distinction between gene mapping and cellular infusion:

On the topic of Weiss and the Tsviets, what happened there was gene mapping, which is different from injection. Basically, what Shademp said above:

Shademp wrote:Maybe there is a distinction to be made here. Perhaps there is a difference between transferring cells and only transferring genetic material.

Though the wording I would use here is "genetic traits" rather than "genetic material," as that seems to imply cells, at least to my ears.

Anyway, gene mapping involves the copying of genetic "code" or "blueprints," if you will, without the actual transfer of the original organism's genetic material.

The answer thus comes down to how accurate the translation of the Ultimania questions is. In other words, if the term 'genes' refers to G-Cells, then it is cut and dry. If it refers to genetic mapping, then we have a slightly different situation. I will hold my hands up and say that I interpreted 'genes' as G-Cells so, depending on the outcome of this debate, I may be wrong. The particular statement about the 'unique' epithets also lends weight to Tres' argument that the special bond is not just G-Cells.

EDIT 1

Deepground's Existence in Relation to 'G'

Based on the DC Complete Guide:

Deepground
A creation of President Shinra, its very existence is hidden in the dark. Originally a medical facility for SOLDIER, following the existence of the SOLDIER called “G,” all ethics were disregarded and the purpose of the facility was perverted … as all work now went into producing the most powerful of warriors.

, Tres wrote:

Worth noticing, though, is that SOLDIER and Deepground are consistently specified to have existed before Genesis. It was after his birth that Deepground, originally a SOLDIER medical facility, became what we know it as today. Meaning there were SOLDIERs enhanced only with mako before there were SOLDIERs enhanced with both mako and Jenova.

This is a common misconception. You may notice here the phrase "following the existence of the SOLDIER called 'G'." This is the same phrase repeated throughout the Ultimanias, one which many read as "following the birth of 'G'."

However, the immoral experiments of DG didn't begin until after Genesis joined SOLDIER, or at least when he began displaying signs of abnormal strength. While it is never confirmed anywhere, my interpretation is that the success of Sephiroth's birth was the benchmark of what would become the perfect soldier enhancement (ie a very particular balance of Jenova cells and Mako - later known as S-Cells) but when Genesis (a "failed" experiment) was also strong enough to reach SOLDIER, it gave the scientists of DG food for thought.

We known that Rosso is the first child to be born in DG in [µ]-εγλ 1985. This would put Genesis' age somewhere between 8 and 15 by my reckoning based on the 'born approximately 30 years before FFVII' vagueness.

While once more never really confirmed anywhere, it would not make a great deal of sense for DG to have existed prior to Midgar's construction as Midgar did not become Shinra's HQ until after building on the Plate began in [µ]-εγλ 1976. I would expect the two to have been built simultaneously so as to arouse less suspicion. Given that Midgar was built roughly around the same time as Genesis' birth, we're talking a very short time for DG to have been a medical facility for injured SOLDIERs before things turned sour.

Also, do you have any citation for the

Worth noticing, though, is that SOLDIER and Deepground are consistently specified to have existed before Genesis.

section, particularly the existence of SOLDIER? I'm not suggesting you are incorrect on that matter, but I have personally never considered 'SOLDIER' as such to have existed prior to Sephiroth's birth, though a Shinra military force of some kind must have.

EDIT 2

Argento Facts

One of the main reasons I decided to write the synopsis in the first place was that there were a load of things I had in my collection that couldn’t be found online anymore since most of the sites had been taken down. I’m not really surprised you haven't seen most of it elsewhere. I used to discuss it at length with people who had played the game or had access to Japanese sites and scripts. Suzaku and Shinra Employee in particular were two fountains of knowledge, and Hito pointed me in the right direction a few times.

Below are my comments to things mentioned by Shademp:

During the Wutai War, as part of a mass influx of individuals into Deepground due to Shinra’s desire to further genetic warfare, a young woman named Argento was sent to Deepground. She quickly became highly regarded by her peers for her exceptional sword and analytical kills.

In addition to this, her artistic and creative mind was put to use when she was charged with the task of designing and crafting the weapons of her comrades at the upper-echelons of the Deepground food chain

I have found no confirmation of Argento being transferred to Deepground during the Wutai War, nor that she is the one who made the Tsviet weapons.

Being the one who made the weapons is something that is revealed during one of the game's non-cutscene interactions. This was confirmed by Shinra Employee who had read the full script in Japanese and had translated much of it. Unfortunately, I do not have a copy of the transcript, nor am I in contact with him anymore. I took his word for it as he had been correct on just about everything else and had no reason to make it up. He is also the one who revealed that the npcs in the game suggest Usher was a real SOLDIER who went missing on a mission and was presumed dead.

The transfer to DG for Argento is something that is hazy for me. I have no notes on it that I can find which would suggest that either it was something that came up in passing or I have tried to join the dots about Argento's past from what information is available. Either way, I'm unable to confirm at this time how accurate the statement is and agree that it should be edited.

Communicating his thoughts to the Coloured Tsviets through Argento, the Restrictors’ messenger to the Tsviets and sympathiser to the cause, Weiss divulged his scheme to use someone not restrained by the restriction chip to infiltrate Lost Force.

Also, while the last claim "Communicating his thoughts to the Coloured Tsviets through Argento, the Restrictors’ messenger to the Tsviets and sympathiser to the cause", makes sense, the methods and exact channels in which the scheme was communicated is not shown. We know that Argento is a sympathizer, from this playonline mode scene, where Shelke's and Argento's scheming is hinted at at the end, but that's all.

Argento's inclusion in the plan to overthrow the Restrictors is hinted at all the way through the game, including in a number of cutscenes. For example, not only does she discuss the plan secretively with Shelke in Event 2, she attends the death of the Restrictor in Event 12. And this is just the stuff available to English-speakers.

The comment about Argento being the go-between was more of an embellishment as she is often seen to be a liaison between the Restrictors and the DG SOLDIERs, particularly the Tsviets. However, it is equally likely that Shelke and Weiss communicate via SND so that he can pass his orders along.

Genesis in Deepground

Aware of their cellular connection to the man and the high importance of the mission given their involvement, Weiss explained the situation in Deepground to Genesis and asked him to join them in their fight against the Restrictors. Remorseful of his actions since leading the mass SOLDIER desertion and wishing to reclaim his pride as a SOLDIER by atoning for his sins, Genesis rejected the request. Leaving Deepground soon after arriving, he sealed himself in a chamber below Midgar, only to be awoken when the Planet needed him again.

Highlighted in bold, I have seen no confirmation of Genesis being honestly remorseful. The cause for his rejection of Deepground is unknown, as far as my knowledge goes.

The information comes from the Crisis Core Ultimania:

Section 6: About Genesis

Q6-3: After Genesis is collected in the Shinra helicopter you can see a sheet of paper saying "To become the dew that quenches the land; to spare the skies, the seas to sands; I shall become an unspoken offering." Is this phrase from the lost final chapter of LOVELESS?

A6-3: The final chapter of LOVELESS is missing, and nothing official exists in the world of FFVII. Experts study it, and there are currently various theories about it. The phrase you mentioned is the final chapter of LOVELESS as Genesis conceived it, and reflects Genesis' state of mind.

By being defeated by Zack, Genesis is able to regain the pride he had as a SOLDIER, and with Sephiroth and Angeal now dead, he decided that it is up to him, who has being left behind, to protect the world. And so, in order to prepare for the day when a crisis threatens the world, Genesis seals himself in the flooded chamber on his own volition. This is the true meaning of Genesis' version of the phrase from the final chapter of LOVELESS, and at the same time the true meaning of the secret movie in DC (see A7-3).

Section 7: Connections with the DC Secret Movie

Q7-1: In DC's G Reports, it says that "G", one of the 'two taboos', bears an epithet signifying 'unique'. What does this mean?

A7-1: The 'two taboos' refers to Sephiroth and Genesis. In comparison to Sephiroth, the strongest and worst SOLDIER who tried to seize the life of the planet, Genesis was considered a unique SOLDIER who sealed himself away to protect the planet.

The Shinra Company, in an effort to conceal the relationship between the company and Genesis who had threatened the world, relegated information regarding Genesis to the highest level of secrecy and forbids even the use of the name 'Genesis'. Thus some of the scientists who knew detailed information on Genesis began to refer to Genesis as "G, to whom has been added a word signifying 'unique.'" This is just like how Weiss, Nero, Rosso and Azul were given codenames corresponding to colours.

As for what exactly the name meaning 'unique' is, that's a secret at present.

Q7-2: In DC it is said that "the appearance of G changed the course of Deepground (DG)" and "SOLDIERs branded with epithets of colour are the hell spawn of G". Does this mean that Weiss and the other Tsviets with colour epithets who were created in DG were created using the results of Project G for reference?

A7-2: Yes. Only the DG SOLDIERs who have been injected with Genesis' genes could become a Tsviet with a colour epithet.

Q7-3: You call tell from the voices that the two men who appear by helicopter and recover Genesis are DC's Nero and Weiss, but what do they mean when they say "apparently he's a brother of ours" and "however... will he agree to it?"? From DC's hidden movie you can interpret that Genesis has been laid to rest in the cave under Midgar up until he awakens, but...?

A7-3: The 'elder brother' is used in the figurative sense. If they are injected with Genesis' genes, that creates a connection, a bond between the cellular units. That is what is meant by 'brother'.

In CC Nero and Weiss are on a mission to recover Genesis, so in this case "will he agree to it?" means "will he agree to join us or not?" But, as in the response for A6-3, Genesis rejects it and decides to have himself sealed in the water-filled chamber below Midgar.

To someone who has only played DC, when they watch the secret movie in that game they will take it as "an ominous being sealed in a water-filled chamber has been release onto the world", but if you watch the movie again after having completed CC then one could go 180 degrees and interpret it in a completely different way.

You may be right that he did not regret his actions during Crisis Core as such, but he at least knew that his actions had to change.

Updated Article

I would very much like to see the Deepground History article updated, both with edits and referenced sources at the end. /academical mode

I agree that this is long overdue as I imagine a couple of things will have to be amended. Unfortunately, I spend a lot of time writing elsewhere so I can't guarantee that it gets done anytime soon.

I'll do my best to cite what I can but a fair chunk of the information comes from sites that no longer exist or individuals who would have to be quoted, and a lot of the quotes I don't have - only my own scribblings and notes at the time of the discussion. This is one of the main reasons I didn't do it in the first place. We could maybe open it up to a debate once the citations are given so that a full and comprehensive article can be written for and by the community rather than just me.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Bear in mind that there are continuity errors regarding what happens to individuals exposed to high degrees of Mako when they die. Former SOLDIERs, for example, such as Zack and Sephiroth are seen to fade to spirit energy very soon after death, while the same is not always true for DG SOLDIERs despite their elevated exposure. During DC: Online, there is even comment by Este-D that the is a SOLDIER 'waste disposal' where dead bodies can be found. Why would that exist if people fade quickly? I would hazard a guess that this is more of an oversight than anything, but valid to my next point.

I'm not really convinced Zack's body faded away like Lazard's. During CC, we see dead SOLDIERs in Junon. The ending may have just been artistic symbolism. It seems doubtful that something like Angeal's spirit flying down from the sky to escort Zack to the Lifestream within the planet really happened.

As for Sephiroth, the only time we see him fade away like that (Advent Children) is when his body was completely composed of spirit energy and a little bit of Jenova.

2) Hojo ordered that those with Geostigma are not added to the pure Mako. However, this does not mean that any drop of Jenova cells will ruin it, it simply means that the proportion needs to be high enough that the healthy have to be differentiated.

Maybe so.

4) During On the Way to a Smile, I'm sure it mentions in Case of Yuffie or Case of Nanaki (though, I'm not 100% on this) that those worst afflicted by Geostigma are those without a strong sense of self. This reflects the SOLDIER process whereby Mako poisoning can occur for those with 'weak' minds. It could therefore be argued that SOLDIERs may not suffer the same physical aggravations brought about by Geostigma as they have already shown a tolerance to Jenova cells and Mako. We already know that one of the reasons Cloud suffers from it is through his guilt towards Aerith.

While true, Rufus was dying from it, and it's hard to imagine someone more confident than him. Even with his desire to redeem his company and correct his father's mistakes, self-loathing or a lack of confidence don't show up with him.

While these stories pre-date the creation of Dirge of Cerberus, it is stated in both Final Fantasy VII and Advent Children that ALL SOLDIERs "have Jenova cells put inside them". However, this could easily be a continuity error or a reflection of the fact neither Cloud nor Marlene know about DG's existence.

It would likely be the latter. It had been previously said that blue/green eyes were a mark of SOLDIER, but the average person would not have been aware of either Rosso or Weiss, who have red and yellow eyes respectively.

The answer thus comes down to how accurate the translation of the Ultimania questions is. In other words, if the term 'genes' refers to G-Cells, then it is cut and dry. If it refers to genetic mapping, then we have a slightly different situation. I will hold my hands up and say that I interpreted 'genes' as G-Cells so, depending on the outcome of this debate, I may be wrong. The particular statement about the 'unique' epithets also lends weight to Tres' argument that the special bond is not just G-Cells.

I'll ask hito if he can give us the exact Japanese used there.

It really wouldn't even make sense for the Tsviets to have Genesis's actual genetic material, though. Remember that Genesis has some of Jenova's genetic material, so Weiss couldn't have received this and still been a pure host for Omega.

This is a common misconception. You may notice here the phrase "following the existence of the SOLDIER called 'G'." This is the same phrase repeated throughout the Ultimanias, one which many read as "following the birth of 'G'."

However, the immoral experiments of DG didn't begin until after Genesis joined SOLDIER, or at least when he began displaying signs of abnormal strength. While it is never confirmed anywhere, my interpretation is that the success of Sephiroth's birth was the benchmark of what would become the perfect soldier enhancement (ie a very particular balance of Jenova cells and Mako - later known as S-Cells) but when Genesis (a "failed" experiment) was also strong enough to reach SOLDIER, it gave the scientists of DG food for thought.

We known that Rosso is the first child to be born in DG in [µ]-εγλ 1985. This would put Genesis' age somewhere between 8 and 15 by my reckoning based on the 'born approximately 30 years before FFVII' vagueness.

This would make Genesis 8 at the very oldest. 30 years before FFVII was 1977. And being that the vague date range is "25-30" years, the range we're working with is 3 to 8.

He hadn't even left Banora yet at this point.

While once more never really confirmed anywhere, it would not make a great deal of sense for DG to have existed prior to Midgar's construction as Midgar did not become Shinra's HQ until after building on the Plate began in [µ]-εγλ 1976. I would expect the two to have been built simultaneously so as to arouse less suspicion. Given that Midgar was built roughly around the same time as Genesis' birth, we're talking a very short time for DG to have been a medical facility for injured SOLDIERs before things turned sour.

Also, do you have any citation for the section, particularly the existence of SOLDIER? I'm not suggesting you are incorrect on that matter, but I have personally never considered 'SOLDIER' as such to have existed prior to Sephiroth's birth, though a Shinra military force of some kind must have.

Well, the date ranges make it obvious enough, as does Deepground's existence as a SOLDIER medical facility prior to the inhumane experiments that led to Rosso's birth.

Added to that, though, the Ultimania Omega for FFVII directly says that Shin-Ra rose from a weapons manufacturer to the world power in the first place because they discovered mako technology and brought an end to a global war through the use of mako-enhanced SOLDIERs wielding materia. Their control was cemented in the post-war period by people's growing dependence on mako.


I'll message hito right now and see if he can get us that info about Genesis and the Tsviets.

 

[Clement Rage]

It had been previously said that blue/green eyes were a mark of SOLDIER

Really? Where? I know Mako eyes glow, but where did anyone hear it involved specific eye colours

 

[Roger]

Really? Where? I know Mako eyes glow, but where did anyone hear it involved specific eye colours

The whole "colour of the sky" exchange between Aerith and Zack kinda loses it's meaning if it had nothing to do with being a SOLDIER.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

There's that, and I know it was mentioned in at least Maiden Who Travels the Planet, if not elsewhere.

 

[Clement Rage]

Huh. I interpreted that as Zack specifically referring to his (blue) eyes, I mean he talks about how glowing eyes are a mark of SOLDIER, and then 'colour of the sky, right', as Aeris stares into his eyes, talking about what she's seeing, and he knows his eyes are blue. Genesis' eyes seem to be grey here,

http://images4.fanpop.com/image/pho...final-fantasy-7-fan-club-19981585-998-700.png

while Sephiroth's eyes are green, and every other SOLDIER wears a mask. (Angeals are blue).Although people like Azul and Rosso don't have blue eyes, they aren't conventional SOLDIERs, so I don't know how much that counts. I always just assumed that mako eyes made whatever eye colour you already had glow brighter.

Oh well. Anyway, this thread is a fantastic resource, great work from everyone involved.

 

[Unlucky]

@eye color topic: I'm confused about this now. I remembered this exchange way back:

http://thelifestream.net/forums/showthread.php?t=128&page=323

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah, as we went over back then, Maiden says that blue/green eyes (I think it used a kanji that could mean either color) were the sign of SOLDIER, and the conversation between Zack and Aerith in CC implies that his eye color is likewise indicative.

It may well be that this was retconned at some point, a misunderstanding, or that the particular nature of the experiments conducted on the Tsviets prevents this from holding true for them. Whatever the case, if regular SOLDIERs all have blue/green eyes, then the average person would conclude that all SOLDIERs should, as the average person would know nothing of Deepground.

 

[ForceStealer]

As I was in that thread, I'm with Clement now. I always thought SOLDIER eyes just glowed, not that color had anything to do with it. If Tifa underwent a mako shower, her eyes would glow with reddish/brown light.

And I never heard Aerith and Zack's conversation as a justification for this. As Clement says, the fact that they glow, and the fact that his eyes are the color of the sky are two independent facts.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Aerith: "So pretty..."
Zack: "The face?"
Aerith: "The eyes!"
Zack: "You like them? Then take a closer look. Eyes infused with mako energy. A SOLDIER trademark."
Aerith: "Oh, you!"
Zack: "Color of the sky, right?"

It's certainly not presented as two independent facts.

Anyway, I don't really have a dog in this race. I'm just reporting what has happened, and that is: at least for a while, it was canon that blue-green glowing eyes were known to be a SOLDIER trait (via Maiden) and Crisis Core seems to support that notion even after the release of Dirge of Cerberus.

Even if not taking the conversation from Crisis Core into account, we're still dealing with a scenario where it was either retconned by Dirge or where Dirge revealed that what generally held true about SOLDIER didn't hold true with the Tsviets, which was what I referenced the matter of mako eyes for. The idea that all SOLDIERs have Jenova cells is analogous to the notion that all SOLDIERs have blue-green eyes -- e.g., Weiss is an exception to both at the very least, and others in Deepground are without a doubt exception to the Jenova bit, what with Deepground/SOLDIER existing prior to Sephiroth becoming SOLDIER.

And for that matter, SE hasn't been terribly consistent in its presentation of what "mako eyes" really means. At first, it seemed like that green glow around the pupil in Cloud's eyes must be it, and that made perfect sense. Then everyone from Rufus to Denzel to Cid had the same glow and it clearly had nothing to do with mako.

And without that being the mako glow, Cloud's eyes demonstrate nothing that would qualify as a glow, so who the fuck knows what everyone's supposed to be on about at this point when they're remarking on a glow in his eyes from Midgar to Gongaga.

 

[S and G]

I would have to say I'm more on the side of them simply glowing rather than having to be any particular colour. However, outside of Deepground, there are no characters presented with an alternative eye colour to blue (or pale green in Sephiroth's case).

The line Tres is refering to from XComp's original translation is:

Zacks who had blue eyes that proofed he was in Soldier appeared before her.

This is very specific but blue being the definitive colour of a SOLDIER's eyes is not referenced anywhere else in the Compilation. Everywhere else just says that their eyes have a brilliant glow.

However, the chances of Genesis, Angeal, Zack and Cloud all having the same eye colour are pretty slim so there may be more to the above quote than meets the eye. (Teehee, get it?)

 

[Roger]

And for that matter, SE hasn't been terribly consistent in its presentation of what "mako eyes" really means. At first, it seemed like that green glow around the pupil in Cloud's eyes must be it, and that made perfect sense. Then everyone from Rufus to Denzel to Cid had the same glow and it clearly had nothing to do with mako.

Yeah the green around Cloud's irises was the only thing particularly noticible about them. Even then I don't really see how Cloud is marked as SOLDIER by his eyes from across a room.

Zack had a rather peculair shade of blue tho.

 

[Clement Rage]

Could that be a misunderstanding based on the earlier conversation? It's Aeris, she might just assume that blueness is a part of SOLDIER eyes because Zack's are the one she knows best. I feel like it would come up more if SOLDIERs eyes changed colour, Tifa would mention it or someone would refer to 'Mako blue'.

Ah, I don't really care that much. But as someone who hasn't played CC, are there any SOLDIER NPCs in the game who don't wear helmets apart from the ones already mentioned?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

No, Angeal, Genesis and Sephiroth are the only ones without helmets.

As for whether it could be a misunderstanding on Aerith's part, sure. I mean, she is only going to know what she's been exposed to -- i.e., she's met Zack and probably seen Angeal, Genesis and Sephiroth in the media. That being said, the kanji she used to describe his eyes could encompass blue and green, which I think I mentioned earlier.

Check out the Wikipedia article on ao (color) for more.

Another point that occurs to me in opppsition to Tsviets being treated with Genesis's actual cells: They don't get his degredation like the Genesis Copies who received his cells. They should have been dead long before Dirge, like all those other SOLDIERs, had they received his actual cells.

I'd still like to know what the gene mapping was supposed to do for them, though, and why whatever trait that was involved was unique to Genesis. Did it make their bodies more receptive to accepting the experiments performed on them -- e.g., Azul's body accepted the Behemoth DNA better, Nero's fetal form accepted the stagnant mako more readily, Weiss's cells became fully saturated with pure mako without it killing him?

 

[S and G]

Another point that occurs to me in opppsition to Tsviets being treated with Genesis's actual cells: They don't get his degredation like the Genesis Copies who received his cells. They should have been dead long before Dirge, like all those other SOLDIERs, had they received his actual cells.

They weren't 'copies', though, so that shouldn't apply. There is a clear distinction between 'copies' and 'clones' as one displays physical resemblances to the donor (Genesis and Angeal) whereas the other only displays a genetic resemblance (Sephiroth). However, Hollander is the only person to have taken Genesis cells (not the genetic mapping as discussed above) and retained his physical form (ie a Genesis clone rather than a Genesis copy), but obviously still showed degradation. So, your argument holds up in that regard.

I'd still like to know what the gene mapping was supposed to do for them, though, and why whatever trait that was involved was unique to Genesis. Did it make their bodies more receptive to accepting the experiments performed on them -- e.g., Azul's body accepted the Behemoth DNA better, Nero's fetal form accepted the stagnant mako more readily, Weiss's cells became fully saturated with pure mako without it killing him?

Pretty sure the the experiments came before the genetic mapping - especially in the case of Nero