(Tagged Remake Spoilers) OG Frustration Thread/Double Standards

[Stiggie]

...I can actually relate to that feeling, because while on one hand I was enjoying the sidequest, a part of me was also chomping at the bit to see what was next past the side quests. But I also knew that I wanted to pace myself and not get to the end cause I'd regret it ending




I actually just ordered Nier Automata for the PS4 a few days ago. Should be here tomorrow so I'll know this frame of reference soon

I've heard good things, and I'm curious so.. It'll be interesting.

Lucky, it's my second favorite game, and has my favorite game ending of all time together with Crisis core, just make sure you listen to the game and don't quit after the first playthrough. I Judged the game an 8/8 on my first playthrough, 9/9 on second, 10/10 on third, and 12/11 after the final ending.


To me, FFVII aged very well actually, I share almost none of the annoyances I read other people having. "Quit acting like a retard and Climb" is still one of my favorite lines in final fantasy history and I would have laughed my ass off had they kept it in.

I think Cid's character was great because he was an asshole, I never thought his behavior was funny, and I've always disliked smokers, but the fact that this person was so imperfect is what made me like his character, I HATE it when games try to put a rosy color on everything, I LOVE painful reality.
Cid to me always seemed like an understandably broken and depressed man, watching him take it out on Shera, who depressingly put up with it felt very genuine to me and I'd be sad to see that go. Is it abusive? In a way, sure, but so is Cloud leaving Tifa with two kids so that he could run off and die somewhere. But I love the admittance that life isn't peachy. And I think depression should be honestly portrayed, and those who suffer from it should be understood, not demonized.

I also still love random battles. They suck if you just want to get THROUGH a game sure, but I don't play these games to reach the end, I play them to play, I play them because I want to fight monsters and try out materia and combinations. Yeah, at some point I've tried everything, but that's not a fault in the game to me, that's just me having played it do death. In the remake especially there were lots of times where I just wanted to go and slaughter some enemies and I never really felt capable of just doing that. I did do quite a bit of that in FFXV actually, and I still enjoyed it.

When it comes to the visuals, I actually appreciate them more these days than I did back when I first saw the game. I just saw low resolution back then, now I see some of the brilliance about them capturing so much soul with so little to work with.

I do agree with Fort Condor, I NEVER liked Fort Condor. I also never liked the chocobo breeding, I always compared it to FFIX and FFIX was just so much better in that regard.
I HATED not being able to beat Joe.
I think the game would have been much better off without Cait Sith as well. That thing was a thorn in my side the entire game, the moment Cait Sith 2 shows up while Cloud is beating Aerith is still the most jarring tension breaker I've ever seen in gaming.
Riding A dolphin I can do without.
And while I don't want this gone, I do have to commit sacrilege by saying I think this aged poorly: I think Vincent is WAY too goth edgy.
Then there are the small plot contrivances like Nanaki not knowing the truth about his father.
And collecting the huge materia is dreary AF. If the remake changes anything, it can add some interesting stuff there.


Some changes I didn't know I needed, but turns out I do:
Madam M, Chocobo Sam, and Andrea Rhodea.
Jessies backstory.
More early game Cloti.
Marle and the other general expansions to the people of midgar.
The holographic scene in Shinra HQ.


Some changes I didn't like:
Wedge and Biggs not dying on the pillar, ruining one of the best scenes of the OG.
Clouds episodes don't make me wonder if it's just in his head or if Sephiroth is actually a lovecraftian horror like he did in the OG.
I didn't like them showing so much of Seph so early.
I didn't like the changes from the escape from the Jailcell to Shinras death, that was in my top 3 anticipated moments of the remake. That shift into horror, but the Purple exploding blood, the lack of gore, the lack of general ominous feeling, and the change in how it was resolved really ruined it for me. In fact, with the pillar change, the remake ruined both my favorite moments from the Midgar portion of the OG.
In general I hate the age rating, having a container in place of Jenovas decapitated head is ridiculous, and I don't like shadow blood when people are stabbed, this also really makes me fear for the next installments.
I didn't like the superficiality of the shinra factory infiltration in chapter 4, or the secret base in chapter 13(?).
The Whispers in general and everything they interfered with.
Making it explicit that avalanche wasn't to blame for reactor 1.
Not enough small options about Clouds behavior, I get needing to give Tifa the flower, and having to high five Aerith, but why couldn't I say Tifa was my girlfriend or other small meaningless ones like that?.
I REALLY wanted to be able to talk to my companions at will.

I am sure there is a BUNCH more for both categories but those are the first things I came up with.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Folks: Psst. This isn't the remake complaints thread.

If Belle Delphine can come make a bombastic return for sim- I mean fans ...

Me and my jar of bathwater are feeling personally attacked over here.

 

[kathy202]

So... on the topic of OG frustration/complaints and since Cid was mentioned rather recently, is it just me or is he a too young to be this jaded? Not that younger people can't be jaded, but I've always thought he was in his 40s until I decided to do my research one day and it was quite a surprise.

 

[ExampleZ]

So... on the topic of OG frustration/complaints and since Cid was mentioned rather recently, is it just me or is he a too young to be this jaded? Not that younger people can't be jaded, but I've always thought he was in his 40s until I decided to do my research one day and it was quite a surprise.

Yeah Barret is even older but Cid is still the "grouchy old fart" of the group.

 

[Odysseus]

Cid should have been 50 and nobody can change my mind

 

[Rydeen]

No, don't show them. Spare their eyes. Let them walk away unscathed, Ody.

 

[Odysseus]

No, don't show them. Spare their eyes. Let them walk away unscathed, Ody.

yeah that's fair

 

[Torrie]

So, back to the topic. Let's leave poor Jessie alone, shall we?

I didn't like the changes from the escape from the Jailcell to Shinras death, that was in my top 3 anticipated moments of the remake. That shift into horror, but the Purple exploding blood, the lack of gore, the lack of general ominous feeling, and the change in how it was resolved really ruined it for me. In fact, with the pillar change, the remake ruined both my favorite moments from the Midgar portion of the OG.

The sequence with the blood trail was absolutely terrifying for me back in my adolescent years. Well, I'm easily frightened by sudden sounds, find violence disturbing, the music always makes my heart race etc., so I avoid horror films and stuff like that. The scene itself wasn't that "horror", but it creates such a huge contrast to the previous goofiness, to the chibi in-game models. I mean, the contrast itself is a great stylistic device, but it looked to me as if it didn't belong there and didn't really match with Jenova's character later in the game. The massacre in the Gold Saucer looked more like it was done by Jenova, not by Dyne. After leaving the Junon ship (they should've added some blood on the floor as well), she was just peacefully crawling around the world without killing anyone else. (Well, except for Her Who Must Not Be Named.)

Whereas the lack of red blood is probably the result of the age rating and the Chinese censorship rules, I do think the Remake did it better: it doesn't look so appalling, and the purple is more aligned with the idea of Jenova being extra-terrestrial. She doesn't have to have red blood, after all.

Afterthought: If the devs had made the blood trail purple in the OG, it would have looked like paint leaked from someone's bucket.

 

[Lulcielid]

Outside of their Limit Breaks, all characters are interchangeable with no distint gameplay identity, something that the Remake rectified (now if they actually had more depth...)

 

[Odysseus]

I'll be honest, I've never understood how people can say the characters are interchangeable

It's purely a combat thing. The materia system being so versatile is a double edged sword, because it means all the characters more or less perform the same in battle. Some are better than other for pure DPS thanks to their limit breaks, but otherwise it really doesn't make much of a difference. This is actually advantageous for the story, since it means you can have whoever you want present in any scene without it being an inconvenience, though all the party members get similar stock dialogue for most scenes anyway since any of them could be there. In that sense, they are pretty interchangeable even in a story context, unless they're in the focus of the story event.

 

[Cat on Mars]

Hard disagree (my quest for disagreeing with everyone at least once continues!).

In the OG, Aerith was useless in the first line of battle. Cloud, Tifa and Red were useless in the rear line. Barret, Cid and Yuffie were the most versatile characters regarding this aspect. Vincent and Sith Sith were the wildcards, one for ranged attacks and the other for melee attacks.
In addition to this, their base stats were very different. Tifa and Yuffie were faster than the others, while other's characters ATB bar took ages to recharge. You get the idea.

Every FF has a system you can break to your advange. In FFVII was materia, obviously.

The Remake just made gameplay differences obvious and flashy and awesome and the tactical use for every character is mandatory.

I'll be honest, I've never understood how people can say the characters are interchangeable, but that's because they are first and foremost to me characters in a story rather than pieces of equipment in a game.

Yes.
Their roles aren't interchangeable, even if they share dialogue lines.
I'll be forever curious about why Sephiroth used Tifa's appareance to fool the party.

 

[Odysseus]

In the OG, Aerith was useless in the first line of battle.

Okay yeah Aerith's attack stat in general was garbage, no disagreements there.

Cloud, Tifa and Red were useless in the rear line.

Long range materia nullifies this though, you can do the same damage from the back row as the front. You'd need to grind like a mother fucker to get three of them though, so that's fair.

Barret, Cid and Yuffie were the most versatile characters regarding this aspect.

Does Cid have a long range weapon? I didn't realize. I know Barret and Yuffie have melee weapons, so they are more versatile without the need of special materia.

I'm sticking to my guns on the shared dialogue being an issue, though. A lot of the characters just fade into the background after their 15 minutes are up, especially ones who don't have big ties to the larger story like Red XIII, Vincent, and Yuffie. I really hope the remake rectifies that one.

I'll be forever curious about why Sephiroth took Tifa's appareance to fool the party.

Hmmmmmmmmm

 

[Cat on Mars]

You'd need to grind like a mother fucker to get three of them though, so that's fair.

My point still stands, then. Also, I hate this kind of grinding, I don't play videogames to get bored.

A lot of the characters just fade into the background after their 15 minutes are up, especially ones who don't have big ties to the larger story like Red XIII, Vincent, and Yuffie. I really hope the remake rectifies that one.

Fair point. I hope for the same in the Remake, I'm really looking forwards to it.

 

[Erotic Materia]

I'll be forever curious about why Sephiroth used Tifa's appareance to fool the party.

Because who wouldn't trust Tifa?

I would literally do anything she asked me tho

 

[Stiggie]

Hard disagree (my quest for disagreeing with everyone at least once continues!).

In the OG, Aerith was useless in the first line of battle. Cloud, Tifa and Red were useless in the rear line. Barret, Cid and Yuffie were the most versatile characters regarding this aspect. Vincent and Sith Sith were the wildcards, one for ranged attacks and the other for melee attacks.
In addition to this, their base stats were very different. Tifa and Yuffie were faster than the others, while other's characters ATB bar took ages to recharge. You get the idea.

Every FF has a system you can break to your advange. In FFVII was materia, obviously.

The Remake just made gameplay differences obvious and flashy and awesome and the tactical use for every character is mandatory.



View attachment 6877
Yes.
Their roles aren't interchangeable, even if they share dialogue lines.
I'll be forever curious about why Sephiroth used Tifa's appareance to fool the party.

I think you might not have ever disagreed with me though, as far as I can remember, and I agree with you here.
I think it's even mentioned somewhere isn't it that when Aerith dies you are supposed to feel that loss in your party? Like that spot is never filled because no one really performs her role as well as she does?

I'm sticking to my guns on the shared dialogue being an issue, though. A lot of the characters just fade into the background after their 15 minutes are up, especially ones who don't have big ties to the larger story like Red XIII, Vincent, and Yuffie. I really hope the remake rectifies that one.

I actually think this is one of the main reasons for the entire "the unknown journey" thing.
Within Midgar, it was rather easy to force certain party compositions. You usually didn't have more than three people anyway, and there were ways to remove one from the equation (still think this is the main reason Sephiroth stabs Barret XD, why else would Barret not help fight Jenova).

But by the end of the game it becomes pretty hard.

Cue post-midgar FFVII. You immediately pick a party and decide to rendezvous in Kalm. You can't do that unless you want interchangeable dialogue like you said. And since now dialogue isn't just writing some text, but motion capture, voice acting, etc, this just doesn't work.

So immediately after Midgar, shit will need to change. I think might be a large part of the stuff that will change in future installments, just excuses to force certain party compositions and have certain people do other things etc.

If you have 6 people and a group of 3. Do you include all 6 in cutscenes? Do you make a bunch of different scenes depending on your party choice? Or do you just change the story so that there are 3 people doing stuff over here, and 3 people doing stuff over there?

I'll be forever curious about why Sephiroth used Tifa's appareance to fool the party.

This is a silly question, if you could change in whoever you wanted.....why would you not change into Tifa?
The better question is "if you were Sephiroth and could change into anyone, then how quickly would you be checking if they were real"?

 

[Erotic Materia]

I think might be a large part of the stuff that will change in future installments, just excuses to force certain party compositions and have certain people do other things etc.

God I hope that's not the case. The variable interactions between whichever party members you choose to have with you is half the fun of the game.

 

[Cat on Mars]

I think you might not have ever disagreed with me though, as far as I can remember, and I agree with you here.

Give it time, we'll disagree about something soon.
But you're right, Aerith's place remains empty. After her death I started enjoying the boss batles more because they were more challenging, she makes the game a breeze.

I think might be a large part of the stuff that will change in future installments, just excuses to force certain party compositions and have certain people do other things etc.

If they're lazy fucks, that's what we're getting. I always expect the worst from them so I agree with you again (damn!). I'll be glad to be proven wrong, though.

Because who wouldn't trust Tifa?

I would literally do anything she asked me tho

I can't disagree tbh.

However, @Odysseus knows what I'm really talking about.

 

[Stiggie]

God I hope that's not the case. The variable interactions between whichever party members you choose to have with you is half the fun of the game.

I get that, but I think it will be really difficult to enforce with such a large team. Especially if we consider things like battle cutscenes. If you can select your own party, then that becomes such a hassle.

If we look at the sephiroth fight, that's the only time in Remake where you could have any party composition you wanted.
And how did they do it? They had one cutscene for Tifa entering, one for Aerith, I think, then three variations already based on if the second character would be Aerith, Tifa, or Barret, with Tifa or Aeriths animations being swaped. Then the only unique cutscene I think we get is when everyone is once again present and we get a hero shot.

(correct me if I'm wrong on any of that).

They've already had to work around it, and it's already difficult, add in a couple more characters and they'll either need copy paste animations and interchangeable dialogue, or some other solution.

 

[Makoeyes987]

This is not a difficult proposition at all. The scenes are rendered within the game's engine and dialogue for each party member can be recorded and used for appropriate scenes when a character is present. S-E has doing this for any party that involves voice acting, for years. They're not averse to having lines be used exclusively for when a character is present.

Most major scenes will more than likely be redone to include the whole party present. In others, it will not be difficult to simply have dialogue exist that only appears if you follow that choice or dialogue quest line. They did it in the Remake already. They did it in XIII and X. And given the game will be separate releases, this is not an overwhelming proposition.

 

[Odysseus]

If you have 6 people and a group of 3. Do you include all 6 in cutscenes? Do you make a bunch of different scenes depending on your party choice? Or do you just change the story so that there are 3 people doing stuff over here, and 3 people doing stuff over there?

One thing I'm almost certain of for remake part 2 is that the party capacity is going to be higher than 3. With the AI controlled Red XIII, we already had 4 in the jenova battle.

 

[Lulcielid]

Hard disagree (my quest for disagreeing with everyone at least once continues!).

In the OG, Aerith was useless in the first line of battle. Cloud, Tifa and Red were useless in the rear line. Barret, Cid and Yuffie were the most versatile characters regarding this aspect. Vincent and Sith Sith were the wildcards, one for ranged attacks and the other for melee attacks.
In addition to this, their base stats were very different. Tifa and Yuffie were faster than the others, while other's characters ATB bar took ages to recharge. You get the idea.

Every FF has a system you can break to your advange. In FFVII was materia, obviously.

The Remake just made gameplay differences obvious and flashy and awesome and the tactical use for every character is mandatory.
.

Sure some character are better at some basic stuff than others, like Cloud being a better melee dps than Aerith can be, but that doesn't change the fact that their core gameplay is almost the same because everyone can use the same tools in equal form (How Cloud uses fire materia is the same as how Tifa does, with the only diference being damage numbers) and everyone can take the same role (like how you can give everyone HP materia to make them all tanks, or give them all magic material to make them mages, etc) and neither have unique mechaniques outside of Limit Breaks.

 

[Makoeyes987]

If you have 6 people and a group of 3. Do you include all 6 in cutscenes? Do you make a bunch of different scenes depending on your party choice? Or do you just change the story so that there are 3 people doing stuff over here, and 3 people doing stuff over there?

We're definitely going to see the party as whole more. Splitting up won't happen unless absolutely necessary for a quest line specific for a chapter, or a unique side quest that chapter replay will allow you to do with everyone.

 

[Cat on Mars]

Sure some character are better at some basic stuff than others, like Cloud being a better melee dps than Aerith can be, but that doesn't change the fact that their core gameplay is almost the same

No, not by a long shot. Aerith is made to use materia, load her with it a shit-ton of it and place her in the rear line and use someone to guard her, and Cloud doesn't really need to use materia, he needs to take all the damage he can and perform Limit Breaks all the time, that's what he's for. Using Cloud to summon or cast magic is a waste of time when other party members can do it with better results.

Splitting up won't happen unless absolutely necessary for a quest line specific for a chapter, or a unique side quest that chapter replay will allow you to do with everyone.

That would be great, really. But I remain cautious.

 

[Stiggie]

We're definitely going to see the party as whole more. Splitting up won't happen unless absolutely necessary for a quest line specific for a chapter, or a unique side quest that chapter replay will allow you to do with everyone.

Well, I think I'd be more inclined to think that's true if it weren't for the fact that the first thing that happens in remake as soon as you have 4 playable characters is that the game deviates from the original in order to add in a chapter where you are split up into two parties of 2.

I know that they'll often all be together, but I just feel like these sorts of work around will happen quite a bit as well, hopefully not as repetitively.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

The materia system is absolutely broken in the OG if you know what you're doing. Get up to the weapons/armors with eight slots each and you could go ham. Even more so with Sources for stat manipulation. The Enemy Skill materia in particular made a lot of other materia obsolete too, so you could have more stat-based materia to pad things out with. And lets not talk about the Master Materia which made an already broken system even more broken...

I think I started out of Midgar with Cloud, Tifa and Red XIII and then switched out Red XIII with Vincent when I got him. I... really didn't have to use anyone else. Put Sprint Shoes on every one with an Enemy Skill materia and MAG and STR materia and you could beat just about any normal enemy configuration in the game. Add in the OP summons when they were gotten and it was a fun time.

For better or worse, FFVII was not a hard game. I have a hard time seeing people having so much trouble with it that they actually have to pay attention to character stats, but then I tend to over-grind like crazy...