The dynamics of Deepground and SOLDIER

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
I was just wondering about Deepground and SOLDIER I know the Tsviets were the more powerful in Deepground aside from the lost force?

My question is why where Sephiroth, Angeal and Genesis trusted not to go against ShinRa? (I know all three eventually did) but what made them three so trustworthy? Compared to the Tsviets?

If you're asking why Shinra didn't keep Sephiroth chained to Mako Reactor and the other two confined to a basement having no intention of ever making use of them despite investing massive funds creating them then well, Crisis Core had a different writer then Dirge of Cerberus. Not a great one, but good enough to not use any precedent set by Dirge.
 

Shizuka

Pro Adventurer
Genesis wasn't being a very good friend in the scenes we see of them together, no but it's lonely at the top, Cloud is probably a better indicator of the rest of the Shinra military then anyone else: weak, hero-worshipping meatshields. Hard to maintain Genesis wanted to be like Sephiroth, but he didn't hero-worship him and was actually a boon to have fighting alongside Sephiroth in the field which Genesis was completely alone in.

Angeal was a legit nice guy (before Genesis destroyed his whole world), who didn't seem to have become a SOLDIER First Class to be like Sephiroth at all.

I mean, the fact that Zack and Cloud had a friendship that transcended their difference in rank is testiment to how remarkable Zack was. Sephiroth didn't have that and when compared to Sephiroth a SOLDIER First Class looks like a nobody infantryman. Genesis and Angeal were the only friends he could really have by process of elimination.

I don't understand how Angeal can be classed as a good guy forcing Zack into fighting him had a huge effect on Zack. He looked up to Angeal arguably more than anyone other than Aerith. And forcing Zack to kill him is hardly actions of a good person.

As for Sephiroth not wanting to be friends with ranks lower than him that's rather superficial isn't it? And why does he have to make friends only within ShinRa? Sephiroth must of traveled throughout Gaia during missions why couldn't he have made friends? I suppose his celebrity status was a lot more suffocating than it seemed as he was probably aware that people only wanted him now for superficial reasons.
 

Shizuka

Pro Adventurer
I think another reason why Shinra trusted Sephiroth so much is because he was practically brought up from birth to be under them.He was originally supposed to be an artificially made Ancient until it was found out he didn't have any of those powers and made him into a superior warrior.Shinra probably expected that Sephiroth would be totally loyal to them because it was all that he had.

And that was clearly a very stupid mistake ok their part as we know Sephiroth didn't just turn against them but the entire world. I really think ShinRa was naive in thinking he wouldn't turn against them. Sephiroth was such a hero I'm willing to say the army wouldn't of minded following him but I'm sure tge population of Gaia (some) would have sided with him in the anti-ShinRa battle.

If you're asking why Shinra didn't keep Sephiroth chained to Mako Reactor and the other two confined to a basement having no intention of ever making use of them despite investing massive funds creating them then well, Crisis Core had a different writer then Dirge of Cerberus. Not a great one, but good enough to not use any precedent set by Dirge.

Yeah I agree there was massive amounts spent in the Jenova project but I'm pretty sure Deepground wasn't exactly cheap...

I never realised that the FFVII other games or movie had different writers I assumed it was all the same. As to keep plot holes as little possible. I guess that's pretty stupid on my part.
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
shizuka@ Yeah,when you are a celebrity of that high status you will bound to have people who are only interested in your fame and want to piggy back on it.I think one reason maybe he was close to both Angeal and Genesis was he probably thought he had found friends that actually did see him as a person instead of a useful tool/human weapon or were all googly eyed around him.
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
I don't understand how Angeal can be classed as a good guy forcing Zack into fighting him had a huge effect on Zack. He looked up to Angeal arguably more than anyone other than Aerith. And forcing Zack to kill him is hardly actions of a good person.

Like I said that was after Genesis ruined his life and his mother killed herself out of guilt. And anyway Angeal wanted Zack to follow his dreams. Zack only wanting to help Angeal even though he couldn't and Shinra surely wanting Zack or Sephiroth to end Angeal sooner or later Angeal stood in the way of Zack's life. Look at how things ended for Zack. That would have only happened even sooner in his life if Angeal had stuck around making Zack choose between his friends and Shinra.

As for Sephiroth not wanting to be friends with ranks lower than him that's rather superficial isn't it? And why does he have to make friends only within ShinRa? Sephiroth must of traveled throughout Gaia during missions why couldn't he have made friends? I suppose his celebrity status was a lot more suffocating than it seemed as he was probably aware that people only wanted him now for superficial reasons.

Well who says he didn't? Crisis Core is Zack's game, we hardly get a good look at Sephiroth's private life. Sephiroth treated his friends as friends, his boss as his boss, he was friendly enough to Cloud and Tifa prior to his breakdown (asking them question, letting Cloud see his family, reassuring Tifa' safety to her father, explaining Mako Fountains to them), he probably had some friends out there, just not people he hung around with on a daily or even monthly basis other then Angeal and Genesis.
 

Shizuka

Pro Adventurer
shizuka@ Yeah,when you are a celebrity of that high status you will bound to have people who are only interested in your fame and want to piggy back on it.I think one reason maybe he was close to both Angeal and Genesis was he probably thought he had found friends that actually did see him as a person instead of a useful tool/human weapon or were all googly eyed around him.

Thank you jazzflower. I see your point but I find it highly superficial to be just friends with first classes. I agree becoming friends with your average joe from the likes of Kalm would have been a difficult friendship as the likely chances they would of had nothing in common.

Why didn't he reach out to the higher executives? The Turks? I'm sure there would of been common ground, there was also Lazard. Heck maybe even the people that make his shampoo. I guess the relationships between Genesis and Angeal put him off forming other bonds. Which is a shame
 

Roger

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AKA
Minato
Yeah I agree there was massive amounts spent in the Jenova project but I'm pretty sure Deepground wasn't exactly cheap...

Well that's what I'm saying. Hell, I'm sure Deepground and even Rosso and Nero individually were all more expensive projects then Sephiroth.

And what did the Shinra Corporation get in return? The knowledge that they could without ever intending to actually do anything with them. It just didn't make any sense and you can hardly blame CC for not following in DoC footsteps.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
I never realised that the FFVII other games or movie had different writers I assumed it was all the same. As to keep plot holes as little possible. I guess that's pretty stupid on my part.

Yeah, the writing hasn't been entirely consistent, and neither have the writers. Kazushige Nojima wrote the bulk of the original game, as well as Advent Children and Crisis Core (though one gets the impression from interviews that Yoshinori Kitase and others mandated quite a bit of CC). He also wrote the On the Way to a Smile stories, The Kids Are Alright and was credited as "Scenario Supervisor" on Before Crisis, though that apparently doesn't mean he wrote any of the actual episodes.

Hiroki Chiba was Dirge of Cerberus's writer, while Benny Matsuyama wrote Maiden Who Travels the Planet.

So, Kazushige Nojima is the primary writer, and Yoshinori Kitase has referred to him as the ultimate authority on story when it comes to FFVII and the Compilation, but he hasn't written every detail of it.
 

Shizuka

Pro Adventurer
I agree Zack's fate was sealed whether or not Angeal had fought Zack or not. I thought it was Angeals's mother that committed suicide?

I know it wasn't Sephiroth's game but they went into his life before madness slightly and made me (as well as others I assume) have more questions about him and I guess I found his character more confusing and more tragic than the OG.

Well that's what I'm saying. Hell, I'm sure Deepground and even Rosso and Nero individually were all more expensive projects then Sephiroth.

And what did the Shinra Corporation get in return? The knowledge that they could without ever intending to actually do anything with them. It just didn't make any sense and you can hardly blame CC for not following in DoC footsteps.


No I'm not blaming CC for not following the footsteps of DoC I'm just failing to comprehend why Sephiroth had so much trust within the company and the Tsviets where kept so hidden.
 
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Regarding Angeal's death, I agree with Shizuka that forcing Zack to kill his own beloved mentor was hardly the act of a good person. But I think the reason he did it was because he wanted to open Zack's eyes to the reality of Shinra. Zack seems initially to have blamed Hollander, who was by then already on the run from Shinra, rather than Shinra itself, but by the time he gets to Nibelheim he's warning Cloud to stay out of SOLDIER, because it's a 'nest of monsters'.

So I think Angeal was being cruel to be kind. Unforunately the result was a grief-stricken, guilt-ridden and bewildered Zack who finally decided to take up Angeal's sword, literally, and fill his shoes in SOLDIER, which probably wasn't the outcome Angeal had been hoping for.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
The Tsviets seemed to be loose cannons. Sephiroth, as we discussed, seemed content to just go where they told him.
 

Roger

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AKA
Minato
And really Angeal and Genesis were just normal farmboys that didn't know about their secret past decided to join the military of their own free will.
 

Shizuka

Pro Adventurer
Yeah but at one point Genesis really became resentful of Sephiroth a d couldn't handle that he wasn't the "hero" and took LOVELESS to literally.

I can see the Tsviets being a loose cannon and Sephiroth was a puppet of ShinRa which is a little ironic. I really wish they'd answer all the questions but I doubt that will ever happen.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
According to the developers, it was just a(n) (un)happy coincidence that Genesis and Angeal ended up in SOLDIER:

Q3-2: There are those called “G Series SOLDIERS,” are these other children created within Project G besides Genesis and Angeal? Were they all born in Banora, and were they monitored with the anticipation of them joining SOLDIER when they were older?

A3-2: Of the children born because of Project G, Genesis and Angeal were the only survivors.

It was Genesis’ foster parents duty to observe him, and to stay in communication with ShinRa. It is feasible that Genesis received an education from ShinRa because of his parents. However Genesis’ feelings had changed, and it can be surmised that they came to a point where they didn’t mind deceiving ShinRa for the sake of their son. On the other hand, since Gillian considered a relationship with ShinRa to be foolish, she completely refused to allow Angeal to go into SOLDIER’s special training. At any rate, they weren’t given the systematic specialized education for becoming a SOLDIER and their relation to ShinRa was still kept secret.

However, through ShinRa’s information management, public opinion came to be “ShinRa should undertake protecting our livelihood” and “SOLDIERs are the allies of the citizens, fighting to protect their peaceful way of life.” Particularly, Banora as a village closely connected to ShinRa had many supporters of the company. For that reason, not only Genesis and Angeal, but many of the villagers took jobs related to ShinRa, recognizing it as making them a success in life and a winner.

Following that trend, Genesis volunteered for SOLDIER and as his close friend, Angeal volunteered as well.

http://thelifestream.net/lifestream-projects/translations/340/crisis-core-ultimania-scenario-qa/
 

Shizuka

Pro Adventurer
So again why didn't Sephiroth leave ShinRa? He must of known of their corruption. Was it clear submission or because if not knowing anything else and it was his comfort zone?
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
He might have not felt good out of his comfort zone and the fact is that Shinra probably would never let him quit in peace.After Angeal and Genesis defected they probably don't want their star warrior resigning.
 
According to the developers, it was just a(n) (un)happy coincidence that Genesis and Angeal ended up in SOLDIER:



http://thelifestream.net/lifestream-projects/translations/340/crisis-core-ultimania-scenario-qa/


On the one hand that's cool because I didn't know that, but on the other hand it either seems like a bullshit explanation or ShinRa is a lot less ruthless than we take them for, if it lets Gillian and Genesis' adoptive parents make all the decisions about their children's lives - especially since Hollander is still working for the company. From that quotation it appears that Shinra didn't think of those two little experiments as 'belonging' to them in any way. They just let them go live their own lives. To me that doesn't really make sense but oh well.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
I get the impression from it that Shin-Ra must have taken them for failures who offered little promise of any sort, and that their parents probably lied to Shin-Ra about what kind of potential they displayed. Then the kids show up asking to become SOLDIERs, and, what do you know, they just needed a mako bath to kickstart their abilities.
 
I'm not going to argue with word of God but I'm still confused about something. Doesn't it say somewhere - maybe in CC itself? - that Banora was a Shinra company town? I thought the whole town was like the Truman Show, a fake town set up to be an experimental laboratory for raising these two kids.

I mean it just seems incredible that Shinra Inc. would take the parents' word for it and not send a couple of Turks to check the kids out, especially since, as Lazard later quite rightly observes, "We can't trust them, because they're his family."

Sometimes I think SE just pull these backstories out of their arse.
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
I'm not going to argue with word of God but I'm still confused about something. Doesn't it say somewhere - maybe in CC itself? - that Banora was a Shinra company town? I thought the whole town was like the Truman Show, a fake town set up to be an experimental laboratory for raising these two kids.

I mean it just seems incredible that Shinra Inc. would take the parents' word for it and not send a couple of Turks to check the kids out, especially since, as Lazard later quite rightly observes, "We can't trust them, because they're his family."

Sometimes I think SE just pull these backstories out of their arse.

More like Rocket City. Shinra was done with them, and they just stayed there.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Yeah, that's a better illustration. Shin-Ra let the town become independent. It's mentioned on that same page I linked. The town existed prior to Project G for reasons unrelated to them, but it was still a convenient place to send the kids because of the Shin-Ra connections there.
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
Shinra burns down towns if they need to, but that doesn't mean it's always their first choice. If something isn't important enough, they'll let it go.

Honestly, I thought Dirge made more sense than AC or BC (maybe not CC). The in story explanation for why it was created was that President Shinra wanted a trump card if SOLDIER ever betrayed him (and he was right to worry, as it turns out). However, the entire project was a fuckup...Nero was too powerful to control, Rosso was too bloodthirsty, Shelke needs regular mako baths. But once the project was begun, Shinra had to keep feeding it, because you can't easily exterminate a couple of thousand soldiers without resistance.

As to why they were never used, Shinra knew they would kill anything in their path, even their allies and have to be wiped out, and then the whole project would come out and the public would be pissed off about all the kidnappings. I mean, Rosso apparently kills a thousand of her own men for no reason after they escape.

Sephiroth's powerful, but he dsn't know the army will follow him. And why risk death at the hands of Shinra for something he doesn't even want? He doesn't particularly want to rule the world until he thinks JENOVA deserves to.
 
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Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
Shinra burns down towns if they need to, but that doesn't mean it's always their first choice. If something isn't important enough, they'll let it go.

Honestly, I thought Dirge made more sense than AC or BC (maybe not CC). The in story explanation for why it was created was that President Shinra wanted a trump card if SOLDIER ever betrayed him (and he was right to worry, as it turns out). However, the entire project was a fuckup...Nero was too powerful to control, Rosso was too bloodthirsty, Shelke needs regular mako baths. But once the project was begun, Shinra had to keep feeding it, because you can't easily exterminate a couple of thousand soldiers without resistance.

As to why they were never used, Shinra knew they would kill anything in their path, even their allies and have to be wiped out, and then the whole project would come out and the public would be pissed off about all the kidnappings. I mean, Rosso apparently kills a thousand of her own men for no reason after they escape.

Sephiroth's powerful, but he dsn't know the army will follow him. And why risk death at the hands of Shinra for something he doesn't even want? He doesn't particularly want to rule the world until he thinks JENOVA deserves to.

I don't remember where it was explicietly said that in case SOLDIER betrayed them is why they were kept around. And if so, if normal SOLDIER's loyalty is questioned, what exactly is ensuring the greater loyalty of Deepground? By all rights, those recruited into Deepground are treated a great deal worse then those recruited into SOLDIER.
Case in point Rosso: Her killing thousands of her own men was not something unusual with her, it was just her continuing on with her day as always. The Restrictors prove that they can easily kill her, their loyalty to Shinra being much greater then hers and Shinra had decided already to never ever in ever to use her no matter what, so why keep her around. How is her spending all her time in lethal training simulations thinning the Deepground ranks useful.

If they actually want Deepground to remain small and that's why they instruct their soldiers to kill each other as much as possible, they could've just NOT made a hundred times bigger then ACTUAL SOLDIER operation or at least stopped sending thousands down there at some point. On the subject, I thought it was hard to join SOLDIER? I don't like the retcon that it was never hard, the reason SOLDIER is so small is because 99% of their applicants are drugged and wake up in Deepground and Cloud just sucks THAT much for not even getting in at all.

Then there's Weiss. This is guy is not said to be crazy bloodthirsty like Rosso or even passively a hazard to be around like Nero. They're just afraid of him because he's too powerful. So they keep him drugged up, chained up to a Mako Reactor and inject him with a Virus that'll kill him if anything happens to the Restrictors and the main computer. Now given that they have done all this stuff to him, again I ask why don't you just kill him? The fact that you have done all this stuff to him clearly proves that you can. Despite somhow possessing all the Tsviets abilities save Nero, Weiss is calld the pure for being relatively untampered with. As proof of a successful expriment, he holds less value then Nero or Rosso.

Not that you know, they ever tried to recreate Nero, Rosso or Azuls ability in someone they haven't proceeded to treat like dicks or anything.

But here's the really weird part, in spite of not even trusting Weiss to be concious and merely confined to Deepground like Rosso, they do actual make use of him on rare occasion. They wake him up, unchain him, give him a mission, and send him on his way fully expecting him to come back despite having pretty much the worst quality of life of any Shinra employee ever, and that's saying something. Did the chips in their necks have such amazing wireless systems that they still receive inside even Nero's Darkness dimension?

Lastly I feel Deepground as a whole undermines the end of FFVII. Midgar was supposed to not be habitable anymore and Mako Reactor unusable. But here comes along an vast innummerable army that uses Mako to sustain themselves daily and have been living underneath Midgar for three years. And they brought a vast Armada of Mako-powered helicopters and spiderbots along with them.
 
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