The dynamics of Deepground and SOLDIER

[Shizuka]

I was just wondering about Deepground and SOLDIER I know the Tsviets were the more powerful in Deepground aside from the lost force?

My question is why where Sephiroth, Angeal and Genesis trusted not to go against ShinRa? (I know all three eventually did) but what made them three so trustworthy? Compared to the Tsviets? The three of them held tremendous amount of power so why did ShinRa trust them especially Sephiroth?

Genesis joined SOLDIER because he wanted to be like Sephiroth and Angeal joined because of Genesis. (I really can't remember but I'm thinking that was the reason.)

I don't understand why Sephiroth remained there before Angeal and Genesis joined I'm assuming had no friends and I'm not going into whether Hojo was experimenting on Sephiroth when he was a child or not but it was clear he hated Hojo.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

You ask such interesting questions. Shizuka.

Close to the beginning of Before Crisis, when Sephiroth crosses swords with Elfe, she tells him that she is fighting for the future of the planet, and challenges him to explain what he is fighting for. He cannot answer her question, and it seems to be partly because he has no answer that he lets her go. (I realise there is some dispute about whether he put any serious effort into fighting her or not).

I know people have all sorts of theories about exactly how Sephiroth was raised, but all I can say is it must have been a very peculiar upbringing because until Nibelheim he is a person who does not want anything. Genesis wants to be a big celebrity and Angeal has found fulfilment in mentoring rookies and developing the SOLDIER ideology, but Sephiroth is like some old war horse who just stands waiting patiently in his stall until he is sent out to kill.

What I'm saying is I don't understand why he stayed with Shinra either. I think that the part of our brains which tells us that we can make our own choices was just completely undeveloped in him. It's like there's something missing, something fundamentally human. He did what he was programmed to do. Plus he doesn't really have any skills aside from killing, or much personality, so what would he do if he left Shinra? It's almost as if all his life he has simply accepted that this is what he does and this is the way things are, and he never thinks to question it until one day, in Nibelheim...

 

[jazzflower92]

If one thinks about it Shinra was basically Sephiroth's whole word before he turned evil.Until Nibelheim,Shinra gave Sephiroth a sense of belonging and identity as a person.One must also take into account that Genesis and Angeal grew up normal with a loving and supporting background.This means the two were allowed to choose their paths in life and take interest in certain skills.Sephiroth was probably raised in a controlled,strict enviorement that always emphasized putting the company's interest over his and made him follow the plan laid out for him regardless of what he felt.

 

[Shizuka]

Thank you very much LicoriceAllsorts I think I babble on too much. But getting back to the topic. Whatever Sephiroth's upbringing was like that is up for debate and until SE state this or not (which I doubt). Whether it had been abusive or not I'm sure we can all agree it would have been far from normal.

I get that ShinRa was all he knew but he had to have travelled Gaia a lot and seen how people lived their lives and must of realised how empty his life was.

I hardly think Angeal or Genesis can be classed as true friends as look how they treat him. He really never had anyone and when sane never seemed to look for that connection. Was he just like a robot that waited for orders and quickly obeyed. Which kind of made him a puppet of ShinRa which is rather ironic. I agree Elfe had a big impact on him as did Hojo he clearly hated him.

So to sum up my point again I don't understand sane Sephirith one bit in the OG I took he liked his status, the fame and the glory. But in CC he really resented it and there seemed to be no real purpose for him. The Japanese CC depict a much more resentful Sephiroth of his fame and really not wanting. The English version in my opinion seemed to mess it up a little.

I again have no idea why Sephiroth was trusted and the Tsviets clearly weren't. Didn't they think that their glorified weapon would crack and one day become a threat the everything? They took many precautions with the Tsviets why not him?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Yeah, Sephiroth is really like the mere shell of a human being. I don't know if this was deliberate or just weak writing or a bad translation. Angeal has his hobbies (he talks to plants) and even Genesis with his damn loveless has some kind of interest in his life outside of killing, but Sephiroth....

In one of my fics I have Tseng thinking how strange it is that President Shinra seems to trust Sephiroth unquestioningly, when Seohiroth is so strong that he could easily take over the entire company if he wanted. But he doesn't want. A lot of people characterise Sephiroth in their head-canon as brilliant, a kind of child prodigy, even a genius, but I suspect the only thing he was prodigiously good at was killing; intellectually, he seems a bit slow, maybe even not all there. Which would explain his one-track mind.

 

[Shizuka]

Yeah, Sephiroth is really like the mere shell of a human being. I don't know if this was deliberate or just weak writing or a bad translation. Angeal has his hobbies (he talks to plants) and even Genesis with his damn loveless has some kind of interest in his life outside of killing, but Sephiroth....

In one of my fics I have Tseng thinking how strange it is that President Shinra seems to trust Sephiroth unquestioningly, when Seohiroth is so strong that he could easily take over the entire company if he wanted. But he doesn't want. A lot of people characterise Sephiroth in their head-canon as brilliant, a kind of child prodigy, even a genius, but I suspect the only thing he was prodigiously good at was killing; intellectually, he seems a bit slow, maybe even not all there. Which would explain his one-track mind.

Yeah that's true they had their hobbies and Sephiroth had his shampoo. I really am not going into bashing CC but there was so many directions they could have taken Sephiroth's character or at least given depth to his character. At least in the OG he had substance before the incident he liked the glory and the fact that he was special even in if he was unlike able but in CC I think the writers wanted Sephiroth's character to appear more tragic even though in the OG I felt bad for him before CC.

I really like your idea of Tseng questioning ShinRa because that's what I'm trying to say he could of done all that yet he was so trusted. I really would like to read your fanfics LicoriceAllsorts they sound very interesting.

As for Sephiroth's intelligence I always thought he was abnormally intelligent. But again I don't CC or BC portrayed this very well. Insane Sephiroth is another story.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I just don't see how anyone who is highly intelligent would be content with life as a human weapon of mass destruction. Genesis is obviously two bricks short of a load; Angeal seems like the most intelligent of the bunch, since he has taken hold of his fate and done his best to turn it into something meaningful. But I wouldn't say any of them were exactly clever.

I mean, Hojo is highly intelligent in his Dr Mengele way, but he has no human warmth or compassion. Sephiroth in CC is shown to be capable of kindness, friendlness, gentle humour, and has at least a basic grasp on morality: it's wrong to hunt down and kill your friends.

 

[jazzflower92]

I can't see why not Sephiroth can't be both very intelligent but also socially standoffish and awkward.I can see why he would consider celebrity status overated because of the fact its rather shallow and doesn't give any true satisfication inwardly.It makes me think he has always had mental,emotional,and social disorders but hid them behind a cold exterior because of the fact thats probably how he hid his inner problems.

In my head before Sephiroth turned evil I think he sometimes secretly just wanted to be normal like everybody else because he was denied such things that people take for granted like a family and hometwon.

 

[Roger]

A lot of people characterise Sephiroth in their head-canon as brilliant, a kind of child prodigy, even a genius, but I suspect the only thing he was prodigiously good at was killing; intellectually, he seems a bit slow, maybe even not all there. Which would explain his one-track mind.

I'd say Zack is the one with one-track mind more then Sephiroth, even in the Original Game, he showed more interest in the workings of Mako and Materia then Zack did. He wasn't all "this how is it let's us kill things and that the end of my knowledge on the subject." In Dissidia musing on the meaning of life is made his distinct trait. Whenever he wasn't stalking Cloud he was monologueing Garland's ears off.

Just because Sephiroth found all the fulfullment he needed in being a soldier for Shinra doesn't mean he was slow and stupid.

I'm sure you consider Tseng highly intelligent but he's never wanted anything more then being Shinra's go-to guy for kidnappings and various criminal activity.

 

[Shizuka]

I question Sephiroth's intelligence as to why staying with ShinRa as what fufillment is really getting? Two "friends" one that joined to become like him then begins to resent the very person he strived to be and Angeal abandoning him for his other friend? Sephiroth had no purpose other than following orders and from my perspective didn't look outside the box as to thinking that there should have been more to life and ShinRa really was holding him back.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Just because Sephiroth found all the fulfullment he needed in being a soldier for Shinra doesn't mean he was slow and stupid.

I'm sure you consider Tseng highly intelligent but he's never wanted anything more then being Shinra's go-to guy for kidnappings and various criminal activity.

Well, that is true, but I never claimed Tseng had a highly developed moral intelligence (although he has his conflicted moments*) and planning and pulling off kidnappings and other crimes can be quite intellectually fulfilling, I would imagine. Plus Tseng is one of the Turks and they are all shown to have very strong, almost familial emotional bonds with one another, which Sephiroth doesn't really seem to share with anyone, although maybe he just gives that impression because he is so reserved.

I'm just saying that if you're super-intelligent you normally want to use that intelligence and you become frustrated if you can't. And we never really see Sephiroth using his super-intelligence. It takes him years to even begin to question Shinra's authority. Also Tseng is just an ordinary human being, but Sephiroth is the most powerful man on earth and could easily take over the Shinra Corp if he felt like it. He's such a huge hero, the army would probably defect to him in a heartbeat. Why is he content to take orders from Lazard and President Shinra if he is so much smarter and stronger than they are? Either he's not very bright, or he spent his entire childhood being brainwashed like a North Korean Olympic hopeful never to question anything. That's really the only possible explanation. So no wonder his brain goes completely haywire when he can't keep the questions at bay any longer.

(* and he does say that 'evil should look like evil' when reflecting on his treatment of Aerith; he cannot truly be her friend, since ultimately his duty is to put Shinra's interests first, and so he shouldn't act as if he is her friend, because that would only make the inevitable betrayal worse. All of which indicates quite a high degree of moral intelligence, I think)

 

[Roger]

I question Sephiroth's intelligence as to why staying with ShinRa as what fufillment is really getting? Two "friends" one that joined to become like him then begins to resent the very person he strived to be and Angeal abandoning him for his other friend? Sephiroth had no purpose other than following orders and from my perspective didn't look outside the box as to thinking that there should have been more to life and ShinRa really was holding him back.

Well that's CC trying to contrast Sephiroth with Genesis and Angeal. And anyway we only see Sephiroth on the clock. Just because Genesis and Zack are preposterously unprofessional on missions doesn't mean someone that focuses on the job is dead on the inside.

 

[Roger]

Why is he content to take orders from Lazard and President Shinra if he is so much smarter and stronger than they are? Either he's not very bright, or he spent his entire childhood being brainwashed like a North Korean Olympic hopeful never to question anything. That's really the only possible explanation. So no wonder his brain goes completely haywire when he can't keep the questions at bay any longer.

WHY? Just because someone is smarter and stronger then someone else means they have to destroy everything that person is?

However Sephiroth and President Shinra measure up in intelligence, Shinra Corp, the entity that controls the world is President Shinra's creation. Cloud, Zack and everyone didn't have to be brainwashed to start working there, why would Sephiroth need to be brainwashed or unfuctionally braindead to keep working there.

Maybe the Shinra Corporation just had his legit loyalty prior to Nibelheim. It had the loyalty of plenty of perfectly normal people.

 

[Shizuka]

Well that's CC trying to contrast Sephiroth with Genesis and Angeal. And anyway we only see Sephiroth on the clock. Just because Genesis and Zack are preposterously unprofessional on missions doesn't mean someone that focuses on the job is dead on the inside.

I totally agree and if I came across as Sephiroth being emotionally stunted I didn't mean it that way. I know he cared for Genesis and Angeal I just don't understand why. Even in the simulation I think Genesis really doesn't come across as a "friend" to Sephiroth. My point is why didn't Sephiroth venture out for bonds that are far less damaging and more rewarding.

I agree with LicoriceAllsorts again why was he ok with just following orders? I do think he was brainwashed that's why he snapped so easily. Also his genes really weren't the best for having no mental health issues. Lucrecia and Hojo and then Jenova added to the mix that's one ticking time bomb.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Because his life seems so unfullfilling. Killing things isn't even a challenge for him. He hits them and they die.

I guess what I'm trying to say - and I know other people have said it - is that Crsis Core was a farrgo of missed opportunities, and one of the opportunities they missed was the chance to show us Sephiroth at work as a military master-mind, discussing tactics, planning campaigns. But instead he does whar Lazard tells him to do (when he feels like it) - he goes out, hits things, and then comes home and washes his hair, or hangs out with his friends in the sim room and vandalises it - which is a clear symptom of someone who is bored out of his skull.

And Zack isn't exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer either. I can't imagine that intelligence is considered a big asset in SOLDIER.

I did once read a really excellent fanfic by Giraffe on the Moon called "A Smile On My Face". which does a much better job of bring the Wutai War to life than anything Square has ever produced; it has an excellent characterisation of Sephiroth as a strategist and a leader, and you can really see, in that fic, why he does what he does and remains loyal to Shinra. I recommend it.

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3454284/1/A-Smile-On-My-Face

 

[Roger]

I totally agree and if I came across as Sephiroth being emotionally stunted I didn't mean it that way. I know he cared for Genesis and Angeal I just don't understand why. Even in the simulation I think Genesis really doesn't come across as a "friend" to Sephiroth. My point is why didn't Sephiroth venture out for bonds that are far less damaging and more rewarding.

Genesis wasn't being a very good friend in the scenes we see of them together, no but it's lonely at the top, Cloud is probably a better indicator of the rest of the Shinra military then anyone else: weak, hero-worshipping meatshields. Hard to maintain Genesis wanted to be like Sephiroth, but he didn't hero-worship him and was actually a boon to have fighting alongside Sephiroth in the field which Genesis was completely alone in.

Angeal was a legit nice guy (before Genesis destroyed his whole world), who didn't seem to have become a SOLDIER First Class to be like Sephiroth at all.

I mean, the fact that Zack and Cloud had a friendship that transcended their difference in rank is testiment to how remarkable Zack was. Sephiroth didn't have that and when compared to Sephiroth a SOLDIER First Class looks like a nobody infantryman. Genesis and Angeal were the only friends he could really have by process of elimination.

 

[Roger]

Because his life seems so unfullfilling. Killing things isn't even a challenge for him. He hits them and they die.

I guess what I'm trying to say - and I know other people have said it - is that Crsis Core was a farrgo of missed opportunities, and one of the opportunities they missed was the chance to show us Sephiroth at work as a military master-mind, discussing tactics, planning campaigns. But instead he does whar Lazard tells him to do (when he feels like it) - he goes out, hits things, and then comes home and washes his hair, or hangs out with his friends in the sim room and vandalises it - which is a clear symptom of someone who is bored out of his skull.

And Zack isn't exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer either. I can't imagine that intelligence is considered a big asset in SOLDIER.

I did once read a really excellent fanfic by Giraffe on the Moon called "A Smile On My Face". which does a much better job of bring the Wutai War to life than anything Square has ever produced; it has an excellent characterisation of Sephiroth as a strategist and a leader, and you can really see, in that fic, why he does what he does and remains loyal to Shinra. I recommend it.

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3454284/1/A-Smile-On-My-Face

Well, Lazard doesn't go into the field. One would think that Sephiroth directly commanded large battalions during the war just like Genesis was doing before just before he defected. But I do agree, SOLDIER didn't need to have it own Director above the SOLDIER First Classes. And you can't blame Sephiroth for the VR simulation, Genesis was trying to kill him, Sephiroth could either tech him a lesson or have this situation again next Tesday.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Because his life seems so unfullfilling. Killing things isn't even a challenge for him. He hits them and they die.

I guess what I'm trying to say - and I know other people have said it - is that Crsis Core was a farrgo of missed opportunities, and one of the opportunities they missed was the chance to show us Sephiroth at work as a military master-mind, discussing tactics, planning campaigns. But instead he does whar Lazard tells him to do (when he feels like it) - he goes out, hits things, and then comes home and washes his hair, or hangs out with his friends in the sim room and vandalises it - which is a clear symptom of someone who is bored out of his skull.

Sometimes I think this is a symptom of them making Sephiroth (maybe all of SOLDIER) just too dang powerful in the Compilation titles. We got from the original game that they were supposed to be strong, but not a one of us saw Advent Children after playing the OG and thought, "Yeah, Cloud moved around exactly like I always thought he would."

Hell, that goes for the entire playable party, really, but especially Cloud with his skyscraper-scaling, dragon-bisecting, landing-on-his-feet-like-a-cat, chocobo-headed ass.

They made Sephiroth so freakin' overpowered that without making Wutai into a superpower that wouldn't have fit their OG aesthetic, they could never pose legitimate enough a threat to him that would justify him strategizing beyond "swing sword, clean blade, repeat."

 

[jazzflower92]

I think another reason why Shinra trusted Sephiroth so much is because he was practically brought up from birth to be under them.He was originally supposed to be an artificially made Ancient until it was found out he didn't have any of those powers and made him into a superior warrior.Shinra probably expected that Sephiroth would be totally loyal to them because it was all that he had.

 

[ForceStealer]

Well they did specifically say Sephiroth was never as powerful as he was in Advent Children. So they could have toned it down in CC anyway.

But you never saw anything give him any trouble in FF7 either. He seriously screwed the Midgar Zolom.

 

[Roger]

Sometimes I think this is a symptom of them making Sephiroth (maybe all of SOLDIER) just too dang powerful in the Compilation titles. We got from the original game that they were supposed to be strong, but not a one of us saw Advent Children after playing the OG and thought, "Yeah, Cloud moved around exactly like I always thought he would."

Hell, that goes for the entire playable party, really, but especially Cloud with his skyscraper-scaling, dragon-bisecting, landing-on-his-feet-like-a-cat, chocobo-headed ass.

They made Sephiroth so freakin' overpowered that without making Wutai into a superpower that wouldn't have fit their OG aesthetic, they could never pose legitimate enough a threat to him that would justify him strategizing beyond "swing sword, clean blade, repeat."

I agree. If 16 year old SOLDIER Second Class Zack can solo a whole fortress in an hour or so, what took Sephiroth so long conquering the rest of Wutai. If we actually had a game that showed why Wutai was able to keep Shinra at bay for a good 8 years, Sephiroth's day wouldn't look like borefest it does now.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

He takes down a helicopter and a dragon with one swipe in BC, one right after the other. It's like, ho-hum, oh look I chipped a nail.

 

[ForceStealer]

It takes him two swipes to kill the dragon in FF7, and takes 0 damage even taking a direct hit.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

But the dragon didn't hold out for eight years.

 

[ForceStealer]

lol, well I wasn't arguing that point, I was just saying that the Compilation wasn't the only thing with this disparity.