Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
Here, once again, the response to this'n and the tale end of this'n too.
Tres, I'll respond later. I want to reread CoS before responding.
I have. But our board has no desire to become a net nanny or enforce a certain form of conduct in the rules.
The hyperbole of 'horrible turn' aside, things also got better for them too. Cloud was making sure to be home every night, to spent time with Tifa and the kids. And yes, the Happier Cloud is, the more the demons of the past weigh on Cloud. Given how weighed down he was in AC/C, he must have been damn happy.
Speaking of selective reading, did you miss the 'then' at the start of my post? My point is that assuming the manual as canon makes a contradiction, not the rest of the body of evidence. The DoC manual is at best a single outlier.
That's not my initial statement to you. Nor does that have a damn thing to do with the closeness of Cloud to either woman, but of Aerith's lingering emotions towards Zack.
I have read your first post. It does not read as pure opinion, but various casting of aspersions.
No. I did not.
No. To say that their relationships are similiar. You are making a bizarre false dichotomy where Cloud and Aerith must have a romantic relationship or none at all.
Except, again, that's not my argument at all. My argument is that the way Cloud reacts to both of their deaths, lamenting both of them two years later, points out that he does not react in a special romantic way towards Aerith, alive or dead.
Also, you are factually wrong, because Cloud sees Zack long before he sees Aerith in AC/C.
8 Times they say the same thing, and you say they contradict each other. Even if they disagree elsewhere, they very much agree on this.
So, the sources don't count because they don't like what you say on the subject? And no, the highwind scene was not optional.
1. Cloud not having a romantic intention towards Aerith does not mean he does not care for her.
2. Aerith loving Cloud does not 'prove' Clerith. Only Cloud loving Aerith romantically can validate the pair.
3. Nothing in the OG and especially not in the overall compilation actually shows a romantic intent towards Aerith.
So, I don't need to 'invalidate' Clerith, because you haven't validated it to begin with.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
My canon? If you refer to the dates, my point is that none of the dates seems to be 'the' correct choice. We keep getting hammered with the idea of all four of them. With the Highwind scene, only the high version has been addressed. Only the high version was listed as one of the four important scenes of FF7 in the 20th Anniversary Ultimania. Only the high version was in both versions of Memorial Album.
Yes. And that is 'the wrong choice' since recruiting those characters and doing their sidequests happened in the canon.
Since my canon is the canon, I will accept your concession on this argument.
Because 'my version of the canon' is the one that agrees with the OG, the movies, the novellas, and the sourcebooks.
Again, so you keep saying, but you never actually point one out.
Well, I certainly was not doing a german dance.
No. I don't think they should feel bad or that 'Clerith' is wrong. I think arguments in favor of the canonicity of the pairing are factually wrong and often extremely tortured, but that does not make that pairing 'wrong' in and of itself.
It is something to be argued about, Kiddo. And no, I don't have the 'rule' that everything written is canon. Please, stop looking for a wedge to try and discount all the sourcebooks. I know they say things about the canon you don't like. I know you think they contradict the canon, but what they do is contradict YOUR INTERPRETATION of canon. And they are amazingly consistent on this subject.
Where in the above are you getting that I read only one of your posts? I read your exchange. Even from the start what you gave was not opinion.
I do. And what sets me apart is that I realize these things are not actually opinions.
But that is not an opinion. It is, as you called it, a suggestion. It's also entirely baseless. Please, provide some evidence. Provide alternate, viable meanings for that text. Translate that page.
People are entitled to opinions. But too often people use the shield of opinion on things that are anything but. You have not been arguing about opinions, but claims on the narrative, claims on the Japanese language. Claims about other people.
If telling you your hypothesis is wrong counts as bashing, then no amount of ettiquette or miss manners false civility will make you feel any less bashed.
So you admit it's canon? Good to know. My work here is done, Huzzah!
Have you demonstrated its existence? No? Why should I 'admit' the existence of something which has not been shown to exist? I don't do that in real life. I see no reason to allow it here.
No. It's not a single scene. The high highwind scene is merely the point in which the potential becomes the actual.
Psst! Remember the bit where Cloud didn't believe that and Tifa reaffirmed it as him being brought to the both of them and Cloud's smile? Yeah. It's emphasizing that they think Aerith is blessing them.
And her happiness at the end and Cloud heading home and taking a day off to spend with her and the kids doesn't?
But nothing was revealed in the ending. Just that they knew each other, that they were friends. And then KH2 came along and blew the idea that Aerith was his light- an idea based largely on assumption- completely out of the water. That was a day of some mighty fine backpedaling from the Clerith camp.
Actually, we can say rather authoritavely that they CAN'T be any type of feeling. That they are feelings of romantic love. Because this scene was included in the section about party members displaying their romantic affections for other characters in the course of the game. There's even another section, specifically devoted to NON romantic displays of affection in the lower corner for contrast. That's WHY we can say with great authority, that these feelings were definitely romantic.
Not that it was not obvious before, but now it is in the proverbial black and white.
'The fact that you had to ask speaks volumes' still holds true. More true, after you point out the above.
The crap they enforce on irritating 'miss manners' forums and the like.
There are several pointed similarities, but the way ES conducts themself here and on TFC doesn't quite trigger the Shroudy response. Seeing the IP, though, I have an idea.
Tres, I'll respond later. I want to reread CoS before responding.
Idronon Sniper said:
I have. But our board has no desire to become a net nanny or enforce a certain form of conduct in the rules.
The hyperbole of 'horrible turn' aside, things also got better for them too. Cloud was making sure to be home every night, to spent time with Tifa and the kids. And yes, the Happier Cloud is, the more the demons of the past weigh on Cloud. Given how weighed down he was in AC/C, he must have been damn happy.
Speaking of selective reading, did you miss the 'then' at the start of my post? My point is that assuming the manual as canon makes a contradiction, not the rest of the body of evidence. The DoC manual is at best a single outlier.
That's not my initial statement to you. Nor does that have a damn thing to do with the closeness of Cloud to either woman, but of Aerith's lingering emotions towards Zack.
I have read your first post. It does not read as pure opinion, but various casting of aspersions.
No. I did not.
No. To say that their relationships are similiar. You are making a bizarre false dichotomy where Cloud and Aerith must have a romantic relationship or none at all.
Except, again, that's not my argument at all. My argument is that the way Cloud reacts to both of their deaths, lamenting both of them two years later, points out that he does not react in a special romantic way towards Aerith, alive or dead.
Also, you are factually wrong, because Cloud sees Zack long before he sees Aerith in AC/C.
8 Times they say the same thing, and you say they contradict each other. Even if they disagree elsewhere, they very much agree on this.
So, the sources don't count because they don't like what you say on the subject? And no, the highwind scene was not optional.
1. Cloud not having a romantic intention towards Aerith does not mean he does not care for her.
2. Aerith loving Cloud does not 'prove' Clerith. Only Cloud loving Aerith romantically can validate the pair.
3. Nothing in the OG and especially not in the overall compilation actually shows a romantic intent towards Aerith.
So, I don't need to 'invalidate' Clerith, because you haven't validated it to begin with.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
My canon? If you refer to the dates, my point is that none of the dates seems to be 'the' correct choice. We keep getting hammered with the idea of all four of them. With the Highwind scene, only the high version has been addressed. Only the high version was listed as one of the four important scenes of FF7 in the 20th Anniversary Ultimania. Only the high version was in both versions of Memorial Album.
Yes. And that is 'the wrong choice' since recruiting those characters and doing their sidequests happened in the canon.
Since my canon is the canon, I will accept your concession on this argument.
Because 'my version of the canon' is the one that agrees with the OG, the movies, the novellas, and the sourcebooks.
Again, so you keep saying, but you never actually point one out.
Well, I certainly was not doing a german dance.
No. I don't think they should feel bad or that 'Clerith' is wrong. I think arguments in favor of the canonicity of the pairing are factually wrong and often extremely tortured, but that does not make that pairing 'wrong' in and of itself.
It is something to be argued about, Kiddo. And no, I don't have the 'rule' that everything written is canon. Please, stop looking for a wedge to try and discount all the sourcebooks. I know they say things about the canon you don't like. I know you think they contradict the canon, but what they do is contradict YOUR INTERPRETATION of canon. And they are amazingly consistent on this subject.
Where in the above are you getting that I read only one of your posts? I read your exchange. Even from the start what you gave was not opinion.
I do. And what sets me apart is that I realize these things are not actually opinions.
But that is not an opinion. It is, as you called it, a suggestion. It's also entirely baseless. Please, provide some evidence. Provide alternate, viable meanings for that text. Translate that page.
People are entitled to opinions. But too often people use the shield of opinion on things that are anything but. You have not been arguing about opinions, but claims on the narrative, claims on the Japanese language. Claims about other people.
If telling you your hypothesis is wrong counts as bashing, then no amount of ettiquette or miss manners false civility will make you feel any less bashed.
So you admit it's canon? Good to know. My work here is done, Huzzah!
Have you demonstrated its existence? No? Why should I 'admit' the existence of something which has not been shown to exist? I don't do that in real life. I see no reason to allow it here.
No. It's not a single scene. The high highwind scene is merely the point in which the potential becomes the actual.
Psst! Remember the bit where Cloud didn't believe that and Tifa reaffirmed it as him being brought to the both of them and Cloud's smile? Yeah. It's emphasizing that they think Aerith is blessing them.
And her happiness at the end and Cloud heading home and taking a day off to spend with her and the kids doesn't?
But nothing was revealed in the ending. Just that they knew each other, that they were friends. And then KH2 came along and blew the idea that Aerith was his light- an idea based largely on assumption- completely out of the water. That was a day of some mighty fine backpedaling from the Clerith camp.
Actually, we can say rather authoritavely that they CAN'T be any type of feeling. That they are feelings of romantic love. Because this scene was included in the section about party members displaying their romantic affections for other characters in the course of the game. There's even another section, specifically devoted to NON romantic displays of affection in the lower corner for contrast. That's WHY we can say with great authority, that these feelings were definitely romantic.
Not that it was not obvious before, but now it is in the proverbial black and white.
Not when a (albeit fake) quote that said "Cloud is Tifa's ideal love" meant "Tifa loves Zack."
'The fact that you had to ask speaks volumes' still holds true. More true, after you point out the above.
The crap they enforce on irritating 'miss manners' forums and the like.
There are several pointed similarities, but the way ES conducts themself here and on TFC doesn't quite trigger the Shroudy response. Seeing the IP, though, I have an idea.
