The Final Fantasy VII LTD Thread (Round 4)

[Vendel]

He is sure yukking it up with Aerith.

And Q don't ignore the context of my quote. You should know better.

 

[Dashell]

And Q don't ignore the context of my quote. You should know better.

Fine *pouts*

Maybe Cloud laughing with Aerith was another mistake

 

[Vendel]

Fine *pouts*

Good. Now go get me a bowl of grapes and cover me with chocolate icing.

Spoiler

 

[OneWingedDemon]

so yeah, just because he's under jenova's control doesn't mean parts of himself don't show through.

Uh huh…and who the fuck denied that? It's not a game of numbers. It wasn't real Cloud in the Shirna building with the axe and Fake Cloud in the church with the flower pot.
He was a mix of a lot of shit, including his own personality, DUH. But that's like saying that because there are carrots in the fucking soup, I can give you a bowl of carrot soup alone and ignore the other 565686970 ingredients I threw in. Can't be done. The ideal image of himself, Zack, etc...isn't this what he built? Is this not fucking spelt out in case you didn't get it? Are people seriously going around thinking Cloud was only suffering from seizures on the occasional day?

Arguing with people who seriously think Cloud was Jenova on disk one

Well mental retardation would not be a problem if you addressed arguments actually made, and did not strawman or invent your own to attack.
No one said Jenova took his mind and body for a spin until the credits rolled.
What was said, (corroborated by the fucking books) was that Cloud was a deeply disturbed individual whose identity issues made up a very large part of the game and were the driving force behind his arc. To try and underplay that is to do the entire game a disservice. Cloud built a whole new persona for himself because he couldn’t deal. He is broken. He is messed up and all characters comments on this.

It’s not just about Cloud having amnesia of some sort. Cloud has literally lost his identity. Does Aeris not say she wants to meet the real Cloud? A Cloud, obviously, she has not seen. A Cloud she does not know. A Cloud that eludes fucking Cloud himself.

 

[Roger]

http://ultimania.ff7compilation.net/profile/cloud.php

"Cloud, having suffered heavy injuries during the incident, was injected with cells from Jenova, an extraterrestrial life form. These cells, which Sephiroth also had in his body, controlled Cloud's thoughts and created a separate personality, and tried to manipulate Cloud into joining with Sephiroth."

The Cloud at the beginning of the game is outright stated to be a seperate personality created by the Jenova Cells that controlled Cloud's thoughts. This personality was based on Coud's own desires, Zack's stories that he told Cloud while they were on the run, Tifa's memories of Cloud and Zack and the Jenova's cells instinct to rejoin with the main body, which Sephiroth used to gather them to himself, prompting Cloud to come after him.
So I'm not saying that it's not a very good Cloud impression, but it was never the real Cloud nevertheless.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

You know, it's Cloud who can make suggestive jokes like "Next to you who wouldn't sleep well," and it's Tifa who gets embarrassed and it's Tifa again who is embarrassed over whatever happened under the Highwind - even if it's just sitting together like clerii would have you believe.

so perhaps not proof but it was used as proof of Cloud being a covert pervert. WHICH MAYBE HE WASN'T PERHAPS JENOVA WANTED TO GET INTO EVERY GIRL'S PANTS IN FF7. So I apologize, Fighter was the one using it a proofz.

 

[Winter]

Okay look, here's the issue I have with all of this:

If Cloud was really so much under Jenova/Zack/his own insanity's control most of the time he was with Aeris, why was he so upset when she was gone?

I'm not talking about romance here. You can have your stupid red herring bullshit, I'm talking about Cloud simply caring for Aeris. They had to have genuinely been close, because the loss of Aeris was one of, if not the single most, important plot point in the game. The creators have stated this multiple times, that the aspect of loss was was one of the most powerful emotional aspects in the game.

So.... if Aeris was really that distant from the real Cloud, why was he so upset over it from the end of the game and through the entirety of Advent Children, even after he had rediscovered himself? It's not like Cloud hadn't seen people die. Shit, Cloud had seen people he KNEW die. So... why was he so distraught over Aeris in particular?

Oh yeah, because they were close to each other. This couldn't have been possible if Cloud's actions were so controlled by Jenova and other forces that he couldn't get close to Aeris.

I'm not even saying it's romantic. Which, I think it is, but that's just me. I'm saying you need to look at the way this fits into the plot.

 

[Roger]

Was that directed at me? Because i haven't changed my earlier stance

the events of Disc 1 still made Cloud the man he ended up being.

Cloud gained control his own thoughts, but as the conversation with Rufus showed "You're an ex-SOLDIER, aren't you?"
"Heh, yeah in my head..."
Those memories, even the fake ones and the ones he had no control over, he still has. He has known Aerith and Barret and everyone that part of is life is forever a part of him.

And because I'm a ultimania whore

"Even after rediscovering his true self and beginning a new life, he is bound by a sense of guilt and mostly keeps the same sullen expression. When you think of this, the smile he shows at the end of AC (see image below right) is deeply emotional."

As the first sentence indicates, the sullen expression he ultimania chooses to remember him having during his mindcontrol (he didn't and I can show the proof in the Reunion Files but apparantly the compilation has retroactive continuity that corrects itself so) didn't come natural to him, but because of what happened to Aerith during that time, he maintains it afterwards anyway.

 

[Celes Chere]

@Winter - Because Cloud still had a part of himself with him while he was being mind fucked. I suggest re-reading OWD's post about the carrot soup. xD

 

[Ryushikaze]

Okay look, here's the issue I have with all of this:

If Cloud was really so much under Jenova/Zack/his own insanity's control most of the time he was with Aeris, why was he so upset when she was gone?

I'm not talking about romance here. You can have your stupid red herring bullshit, I'm talking about Cloud simply caring for Aeris. They had to have genuinely been close, because the loss of Aeris was one of, if not the single most, important plot point in the game. The creators have stated this multiple times, that the aspect of loss was was one of the most powerful emotional aspects in the game.

So.... if Aeris was really that distant from the real Cloud, why was he so upset over it from the end of the game and through the entirety of Advent Children, even after he had rediscovered himself? It's not like Cloud hadn't seen people die. Shit, Cloud had seen people he KNEW die. So... why was he so distraught over Aeris in particular?

Oh yeah, because they were close to each other. This couldn't have been possible if Cloud's actions were so controlled by Jenova and other forces that he couldn't get close to Aeris.

I'm not even saying it's romantic. Which, I think it is, but that's just me. I'm saying you need to look at the way this fits into the plot.

I think you are misunderstanding what we're saying. Even as Cloud is controlled, he's not unaware. He still observes and recalls what he does, even as a mindfucked cobboled together partial man, Cloud is aware of the people he meets, and can grow close to them even as they must remain distant from him for NOT KNOWING the actual him, but the fake him.

So yes, Cloud was close to Aerith. So was Tifa. Barret, Red, Yuffie, Vincent, even Cid were al close to her too. The exception to all this IS Cloud, who she only got a glimpse of before her demise- she couldn't get close to Cloud. none of them could. Even Tifa could grow no closer than she already was- even with her knowledge that Cloud wasn't himself, because he quite simply was not himself. He could grow close to all these people, but not them to he. Because he's trapped, and shattered behind his false persona, and they all have to interact with is the fake Cloud until his facade cracks and then he is reconstructed.

 

[Zee]

Zee, Oddish, I think you two are grossly misreading the whole concept of Cloud's laugh while under Jenova's control. It's not saying that he laughed because Jenova thought the joke was funny, but that on disc 1 he put on a far more confident facade because of being messed up and under control that may have been more susceptible to laughing at a joke than his real self would be.

When will you guys learn to not take us seriously when we are clearly taking the piss?

In any case, thanks Que for the full quote. There's also another quote that Aeris can see past Cloud's facade into the real him. So no, no matter what way you slice it, he's not somehow "missing" on disk one. He is Cloud -- fucked up and confused Cloud, but Cloud nonetheless. He's not some blank slate of a character devoid of personality on disk one. Trying to say otherwise does interfere with character development and the player's connection to Cloud.

For example; Cloud puts up the front that he's a real badass and comes off as a self centered jerk. The player thinks, "Why would anyone follow this guy? Why would they care about him? Why should I care about him?" so we get moments like Cloud actually listening to Tifa and sticking around, or running back to help Jessie who he barely knows, or taking up the task of escorting Aeris home. And then we get some really weird, sometimes awkward moments (the whole Priscilla and Mr. Dolphin part, Wall Market) that bring him down to earth and endear him to us.

I mean, this is character writing 101 here. Disk one may just be the introduction to who Cloud is, but it's Cloud we're getting to know nonetheless. To believe that the writers would give him these life changing experiences -- as Winter mentioned, Aeris' death not the least of which, on the first disk only to say, "Well it wasn't really him" makes it matter a whole lot less. Having Cloud get close to someone and care for them (however you want to interpret it) and then killing them off right before his eyes is a lot more emotionally damaging in a way it just... wouldn't be if he was simply looking at her only through the memories of something he himself wasn't experiencing. It makes his struggle in CoT and AC almost meaningless as well -- if we go by the logic that none of it is really even Cloud, then the pain he's enduring over the loss of a friend (and the subsequent fear this causes him in maintaining other relationships) just doesn't work anymore, because then it's not someone who is suffering from personally experiencing loss. By all rights then, he should care about Aeris' death about as much as he did Jessie's.

Also I just find it so weird that people would even debate in favor of this considering Tifa's unwavering faith that he was the real Cloud leads up to the events in disk two and it just generally a huge factor in their relationship.

 

[Roger]

So in your eyes she was talking to the real Cloud when she said she wanted to meet the real Cloud?

 

[Zee]

So in your eyes she was talking to the real Cloud when she said she wanted to meet the real Cloud?

 

[Dashell]

I think you are misunderstanding what we're saying.

I think she's confusing what WE'RE saying with what Vendel is saying

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

i think this entire thread is confused.

 

[Madame Mayor]

There's also another quote that Aeris can see past Cloud's facade into the real him.

If it's the quote I'm thinking of, she can see there's a problem with him, that another Cloud does exist, not that she can actually see into the real him.

 

[Roger]

i think this entire thread is confused.

Doesn't help that the Compilation doesn't always seem to have it's mind made up about what's what.

FFVII: Voices in your head, pointing out Tifa's odd behaviour, telling you to ask er about it. *split personality clearly implied.*

AC: "I never blamed you, not even once. You came, that's all that mattered." *snif*yeah, we did.*snif*

Ultimania: Starting new life, rediscovering ones TRUE self, Jenova mindcontrol, alternate personality. *rawr, Aerith belongs to Zack, piss off.*

 

[Ryushikaze]

Not seeing how those three stages contradict each other, Shika. Elaborate.

 

[Dashell]

If it's the quote I'm thinking of, she can see there's a problem with him, that another Cloud does exist, not that she can actually see into the real him.

These?

"So you won't have a breakdown..." Aerith appears in Cloud's dream, she seems to console him with such
advice. This line can infer that Aerith has seen through the essence of Cloud.

"I'm looking for you."... "So you won't have a breakdown."- what Aerith told Cloud reveals many deep
meanings. Aerith detected that the present Cloud is not the real him during their encounters. She
knows it because of her mysterious, inherent ability.

When Aerith thinks of Cloud and Zack's similarities, she sees that the present Cloud is not the real Cloud.
Her meaningful lines like, "I'm searching for you" and "I want to meet you" all mean that she has discovered
the existence of the real Cloud, although he's not aware of it himself.

Yeah sounds like she knows the real Cloud exists. Whether or not she knew exactly who the real Cloud was, ... well that's not really clear from these quotes. But I'd say no, not exactly.


on another note
I love using FFG's site for these things.

 

[Makoeyes987]

http://ultimania.ff7compilation.net/profile/cloud.php

"Cloud, having suffered heavy injuries during the incident, was injected with cells from Jenova, an extraterrestrial life form. These cells, which Sephiroth also had in his body, controlled Cloud's thoughts and created a separate personality, and tried to manipulate Cloud into joining with Sephiroth."

The Cloud at the beginning of the game is outright stated to be a seperate personality created by the Jenova Cells that controlled Cloud's thoughts. This personality was based on Coud's own desires, Zack's stories that he told Cloud while they were on the run, Tifa's memories of Cloud and Zack and the Jenova's cells instinct to rejoin with the main body, which Sephiroth used to gather them to himself, prompting Cloud to come after him.
So I'm not saying that it's not a very good Cloud impression, but it was never the real Cloud nevertheless.

Why the hell don't you link to our own site, instead of the site who's using our translations without permission?

 

[Roger]

Well I admit that (in my mind at least) the AC line is hampered by the knowledge that this wasn't the same Cloud that she was referring too anymore. Does ruin the moment. And it was one of my favorite lines in AC. But Ultimania left absolutely no doubt about what the deal is, stating it as black and white as possible.

EDIT: Cause i get there quicker? Didn't know anyone cared.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well I admit that (in my mind at least) the AC line is hampered by the knowledge that this wasn't the same Cloud that she was referring too anymore. And it was one of my favorite lines in AC. But Ultimania left absolutely no doubt about what the deal is, stating it as black and white as possible.

EDIT: Cause i get there quicker? Didn't know anyone cared.

Dude, it's right there on the front page. How is that any faster? Just kinda redonkulous to use the translations that are leeched from another site, on the site they're actually hosted on. But whatevs.

 

[Dashell]

Just kinda redonkulous to use the translations that are leeched from another site, on the site they're actually hosted on. But whatevs.

Where's the poz button? Hitting thanks isn't enough for this one.

 

[Madame Mayor]

These?

Yeah sounds like she knows the real Cloud exists. Whether or not she knew exactly who the real Cloud was, ... well that's not really clear from these quotes. But I'd say no, not exactly.


on another note
I love using FFG's site for these things.

Yes, thank you. I think it was the second one I was thinking of, though they all say generally the same thing.

 

[null]

So... what fruit exactly has this Disk 1 discussion borne?

Bananas?