The Final Fantasy VII LTD Thread (Round 4)

[Makoeyes987]

Ohhhhhh, an even more reliable and vetted source!

Do they eat at WacDonald's by any chance?

 

[Ryushikaze]

Oh I'm sorry, Hito please tell me why it's secret instead of dim or slight even though I had a Japanese native tell me it was slight

Did they explain the context of how it would be dim or slight in English?

Also, proffz, plz.

 

[Strangelove]

Oh I'm sorry, Hito please tell me why it's secret instead of dim or slight even though I had a Japanese native tell me it was slight

You're confusing me with others, because I've actually argued against the 'secret' meaning

 

[Celes Chere]

No, a friend's friend actually

I call

Bullshit.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

I wanted to do a color analysis today about how Tifa's outfit signifies she's a shounen hero and a chaste one at that so she'll never get laid but Aerith's is pink like pinku films in Japan, so she'll clearly have lots of sex.

But then I realized it was a little too silly and decided not to.

 

[Splintered]

Alright here goes. So you guys all know about FFG's Cloti perspective right? Well even though it's a joke or whatever, I've always been bothered by it.

I'm always kind of amused when people try to make the "other side" look bad by mocking perceived fanbases. As if it makes their point so much more legitimate.

You'll see stupid things like a Clerith fan posting, "omg I'M r Cloti and i think tifaz bo0bz r hot so she must have sex0rz with Cloudzzzz!!!111"

And you just want to say, "No, I don't type like that or rationalize like that. And I have twice the vocabulary you do so just stop. PS. I'm not just being a pompous douchebag because, quite frankly, it's not much of an accomplishment."

So things like FFG's "The Cloti Perspective" just makes me roll my eyes.

Clerith's aren't the only ones who do that though. A lot of Cloti's and probably people here do it as well. But if you're going to mock another point of view, at least be funny about it. Otherwise it just makes you look petty.

 

[Joker]

a friend

I call

Bullshit.

^this

Everyone knows you don't have friends. Silly rabbit


OT: If you look at it from the perspective of "okay, FFVII fits thus and such RPG cliches", you actually CAN argue that Aerith is meant to be with Cloud in that way, because traditionally, the 'princess that is the sole survivor of an ancient race' DOES end up with the hero (see FFIX, X [to an extent], Tactics, lots of other games).

Granted, it's just playing on cliches, but it just came to me. Thoughts?

 

[Celes Chere]

'princess that is the sole survivor of an ancient race

Not true. Play FFVI some time. And Aerith/Terra are not princesses... XD

 

[Joker]

'Princess' is the generic term. And I also got the cliche wrong. LOL. (The spunky princess who is rebelling against her royal parent and is in love with the hero.)

The ACTUAL cliche is:

The demure, soft-spoken female mage and healing magic specialist who is not only in love with the hero, but is also the last survivor of an ancient race.

derp @ me =P


Tifa actually doesn't fit any of the female character cliches, because while she is a 'tough-as-nails female warrior', and has a scar (giant sword slash), she IS in love with the hero. So. =/


Ed: It also says IX, not VI, meaning Garnet, who actually fits both of that at the same time

 

[looneymoon]

OT: If you look at it from the perspective of "okay, FFVII fits thus and such RPG cliches", you actually CAN argue that Aerith is meant to be with Cloud in that way, because traditionally, the 'princess that is the sole survivor of an ancient race' DOES end up with the hero (see FFIX, X [to an extent], Tactics, lots of other games).

Granted, it's just playing on cliches, but it just came to me. Thoughts?

I think FFVII was pretty clear in defying that particular trope by killing Aeris off quite cruelly. Also, I don't think many of the FFs really operate on that cliche either. Maybe VIII, IX and X (somewhat) off the top of my head. If anything, Aeris is a Gwen Stacy. Though even that analogy doesn't exactly work because Cloud and Aeris were never actually "together".

 

[Splintered]

Not true. Play FFVI some time. And Aerith/Terra are not princesses... XD

True but what he's saying that regardless, if Aerith/Cloud magically became canon it is a cliche that's often repeated in RPGs. In fact it's done purposively as a romantic cliche.

I do see why a lot of people don't let go of C/A because it did follow the formula to the inch of its death. And you could argue the whole wispy eyed lone wolf who will forever mourn the death of his true love is also part of the package.

The counterpoint is that it was a play on cliches and then turn it on its head and surprise you. I think someone else (Isabella?) said it best that Cloud/Aerith was a red herring. It was built up to make it seem that Cloud/Aerith were going to be the romantic coupling, and then she dies, effectively destroying any chance of going further.

FFVII was suppose to deviate from obvious cliches of Final Fantasy. I'm not saying they did it successfully, it did suffer from others. But the world had less fantasy and more realistic overtones in the world setting (like Midgar and such). The main female dies and stays dead through three games/two sequels (something FFX did not accomplish), the oppressive regime wasn't a kingdom- it was a corporation, and the main guy wasn't this cool-headed sarcastic loner you thought he was- he was a social retard who was more shy than apathetic. Not only that, he doesn't end the franchise as some great leader, a king, or some freedom fighter. He has two kids, lives in a decent house, and is a glorified mail man.

It kind of boggles the mind when people use the argument against Cloud/Tifa that their relationship has problems and therefore isn't ~fantasy~ enough. Look at Cloud. Look at what he does for a living. Look at where he lives. It's not suppose to be a ~fantasy~. And what kind of ~fantasy~ has the main guy in the relationship living with his other love interest and raising two kids with her.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Though even that analogy doesn't exactly work because Cloud and Aeris were never actually "together".

In my game, they shared a room at the love hotel in Wall Market quite a few times while they were trying to 'level up'.

 

[Dashell]

Ohhhhhh, an even more reliable and vetted source!

Do they eat at WacDonald's by any chance?

Lol wow, so you won't even trust me?

I am serious about that BTW, a friend of mine is learning Japanese from some natives. I sent him that passage to ask what they thought about it, and they told me it was slight or dim feelings. ... BUT... here's the convo we had:

(06/23/2010 01:27:46 PM) Liquid Rain: hope you're a cloud/aeris person
(06/23/2010 01:28:53 PM) Liquid Rain: "It's a one-sided relationship. Tifa loves Cloud and so does Cloud, but he loves her as a close family friend. Cloud loves someone ales (Aeris), but Tifa is the pillar that holds Cloud together so he doesn't fall into despair. The meaning is faint feeling/dim feeling, kind of weak/slight feeling."
(06/23/2010 01:30:06 PM) Liquid Rain: from a non-made-up Japanese person
(10:59:16 PM) Quexinos: wah
(10:59:17 PM) Quexinos: no way
(10:59:23 PM) Quexinos: what about all those sites I looked up? (referring to sites that seem to use the dim/slight phrase, I find it odd that so many Japanese sites are about dim feelings)

(11:00:00 PM) ***Liquid Rain shrugs
(11:00:05 PM) Liquid Rain: Japanese can't be literally translated
(11:00:16 PM) Quexinos: was that one of your natives though?
(11:00:19 PM) Liquid Rain: It doesn't work
(11:00:21 PM) Liquid Rain: Yes, you met her (yes I did meet her in person)
(11:00:34 PM) Quexinos: stupid
(11:00:37 PM) Quexinos: gah
(11:00:40 PM) Quexinos: i wanna talk to her
(11:00:43 PM) Quexinos: i wanna show her something
(11:01:09 PM) Liquid Rain: Sorry, there's a certain buffer I maintain between social groups.
(11:01:17 PM) Quexinos: nnggghh
(11:01:29 PM) Quexinos: but she hasn't seen the page where Cloud and Tifa were shown along side all the other canon couples
(11:01:34 PM) Quexinos: on the page about romantic love
(11:02:51 PM) Liquid Rain: Could still be one-sided love; especially if what you quoted to get translated is canon.
(11:03:25 PM) Quexinos: no it said "Before the final battle, Cloud regains himself and that night he and Tifa confirm the feelings they are unable to put into words."
(11:05:18 PM) Quexinos: ALONG SIDE ALL THE OTHER CANON COUPLES
(11:05:22 PM) Quexinos: and says NOTHING about Cloud and Aerith... wait
(11:05:23 PM) Liquid Rain: Well, don't know what to tell ya.
(11:05:29 PM) Quexinos: wait a minute, so what if Cloud had slight feelings
(11:05:34 PM) Quexinos: he was young
(11:06:26 PM) Quexinos: also I'm not pissed
(11:06:29 PM) Quexinos: don't tell Rob this stuff
(11:06:44 PM) Quexinos: he just came into my room thinking I was upset XD
(11:07:22 PM) Liquid Rain: hahaha
(11:07:31 PM) Quexinos: no I think it's funny
(11:07:45 PM) Quexinos: but Nojima said something similar about Aerith and Zack when they were young, something about how they can't really love yet
(11:07:49 PM) Liquid Rain: well as long as I don't get dragged into it any further
(11:07:49 PM) Quexinos: so this is probably just along those lines
(11:07:52 PM) Quexinos: aww
(11:07:57 PM) Quexinos: i still wish I could talk to her
(11:07:58 PM) Quexinos: but that's fine
(11:08:54 PM) Quexinos: tell her thanks
(11:09:15 PM) Quexinos: but I very heavily disagree on Cloud loving Aerith... also does she know Tifa was once called a "koibito" in the Reunion files?
(11:09:18 PM) Quexinos: bah who cares?
(11:09:40 PM) Liquid Rain: my friend knows nothing of these things
(11:09:49 PM) Liquid Rain: she interpreted that from the phrase you gave her
(11:09:58 PM) Quexinos: wow
(11:10:01 PM) Quexinos: wait
(11:10:05 PM) Quexinos: the phrase I gave her said nothing about Aerith
(11:10:42 PM) Liquid Rain: "nothing" is relative.
(11:10:49 PM) Quexinos: I'm confused
(11:10:58 PM) Liquid Rain: It's hard not to know FF7.
(11:11:03 PM) Quexinos: okay right
(11:11:04 PM) Quexinos: but alright
(11:14:09 PM) Quexinos: anyway
(11:14:12 PM) Quexinos: back on track here
(11:14:19 PM) Quexinos: some day when I get bigger
(11:14:25 PM) Quexinos: I'm gonna fight that Mario again.. wait that's not right
(11:16:54 PM) Quexinos: SAY SOMETHING NOW I THINK YOU'RE MAD AT ME
(11:18:09 PM) Liquid Rain: no
(11:18:13 PM) Liquid Rain: I'm studying katakana
(11:18:15 PM) Liquid Rain: so I am intermittently afk
(11:18:46 PM) Quexinos: fine *pouts*
(11:21:14 PM) Liquid Rain: well, battery's running out and it's bed time
(11:21:22 PM) Liquid Rain: hopefully you got something useful out of that translation
(11:21:24 PM) Liquid Rain: later!
(11:21:44 PM) Quexinos: thanks again
(11:21:45 PM) Quexinos: tell her thanks
(11:21:47 PM) Quexinos: later

So yeah, he won't let me talk to her about it
But I sent a question to all experts too and they said the same thing *shrug*
Im fine with "slight feelings" it just means they didn't grow into love yet, that's all.

Did they explain the context of how it would be dim or slight in English?

Also, proffz, plz.

uh... what kind of proof?

You're confusing me with others, because I've actually argued against the 'secret' meaning

did you really or are you being sarcastic?

Anyways:
http://killthemongoose.com/tnc/index.php?topic=1021
For anyone who wants to reply or add anything.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Guy gets demure healer chick/ speshul snoeflaek last of kind ISN'T the FF romance trope, certainly not then. Rosa is the healer chick, but hardly demure and actually a damn good striker. She's a combat mage. Rydia is the 'demure staff chick/ special girl' in the game. She no get hero.

FFVI main romance is the guy and the fighter chick. Special girl... no romance.

FFVIII... should have given Aerith green hair.
But then that would be too obvious.

Also, VIII, Black mage fighter chick. Totally spitfire.

IX, a summoner/WM. And a special race princess, yes.
But also, there was another, exactly like her, who DID NOT get the hero. So, it's character, not trope.

X- Summoner white mage... turned gunner chick. Oops.

So, what tropes are we seeing? Summoners, Combat Mages, and Fighter/ Combat women.
And as we ALL KNOW, one of the SECRET TRUTHS of FFVII is that Tifa is a summoner. So she's both the combat chick, and the summoner mage chick. She wins tropeness.

(06/23/2010 01:27:46 PM) Liquid Rain: hope you're a cloud/aeris person
(06/23/2010 01:28:53 PM) Liquid Rain: "It's a one-sided relationship. Tifa loves Cloud and so does Cloud, but he loves her as a close family friend. Cloud loves someone ales (Aeris), but Tifa is the pillar that holds Cloud together so he doesn't fall into despair. The meaning is faint feeling/dim feeling, kind of weak/slight feeling."
(06/23/2010 01:30:06 PM) Liquid Rain: from a non-made-up Japanese person
(10:59:16 PM) Quexinos: wah
(10:59:17 PM) Quexinos: no way
(10:59:23 PM) Quexinos: what about all those sites I looked up? (referring to sites that seem to use the dim/slight phrase, I find it odd that so many Japanese sites are about dim feelings)

The honoka quote has JACK SHIT to do with Tifa's feelings or Aerith, period. I call bullshits.

Also, Dim or slight IS the actual meaning of the word, but related to detectability. 'I can slightly see the painting', or 'I am dimly aware', which is why Secret is literally incorrect, but might suggest the overall meaning better.

 

[Vendel]

The counterpoint is that it was a play on cliches and then turn it on its head and surprise you. I think someone else (Isabella?) said it best that Cloud/Aerith was a red herring. It was built up to make it seem that Cloud/Aerith were going to be the romantic coupling, and then she dies, effectively destroying any chance of going further.

Here is the thing I don't get. Why do people insist that only Cloud/Aerith were built up? The game gave you two obvious choices for a love interest on the first disk. Tifa has/had plenty of cliches herself.

It doesn't make C/A any less a red herring.

The main female dies

One of the two female leads. Again the game is not the Cloud/Aerith story.

And what kind of ~fantasy~ has the main guy in the relationship living with his other love interest and raising two kids with her.

None. That is why it can't be canon......

 

[Dashell]

The honoka quote has JACK SHIT to do with Tifa's feelings or Aerith, period. I call bullshits.

I was surprised to see that too, obviously she formed her own opinion somehow. The reason I wanted to ask her was because I thought she had never played FFVII and I figured this way no one could call bias . I asked specifically if it was secret or dim and she chose dim, and I don't believe she's the type of person to mistranslate her own language to prove her ship.

But maybe I'll get to talk to her again someday, we'll see.

 

[Splintered]

Rosa is the healer chick, but hardly demure and actually a damn good striker. She's a combat mage. Rydia is the 'demure staff chick/ special girl' in the game. She no get hero.

Aerith isn't demure either. She got a helluva lot more serious but that was mostly after her death. She wasn't a bad striker either. She was weakest, but noticeable differences between player characters weren't all that apparent towards the end anyway.

Even with Yuna's change in X-2, it's quite obvious her main role is summoner/white mage. And she was the uber special girl with a terrible burden. Garnet was the white/mage mystery. Rosa was the white mage. And VIII was a mage, because there is no difference between black and white mages in this game. In fact, like VII, differences are highly customizable. She was the only person who was special since everyone else had the same story and she gets possessed( andsince every other character is a boring pile of shit. Well, so is Rinoa. But she's a special boring piece of shit.) XII Penelo also gets turned into the white mage and simultaneously, becomes Vaan's love interest (or her love interest role is expanded on).

I'm not saying that they ALWAYS get together. Obviously, VI pretty much flies in the face of that. And not all of these characters are exactly the same.

But it's still a cliche and a cliche that many people picked up on.

 

[Strangelove]

did you really or are you being sarcastic?

http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=198441&postcount=1894

I'm always serious.

Except all those other times

 

[Dashell]

Just another reason it's a red herring I guess

EDIT:
also thanks Hito, I'm glad to hear you say that. After speaking with a few people, I completely agree with it being vague or something that hasn't grown yet

 

[Celes Chere]

Tifa and Cloud obviously fit the childhood romance cliche, as do Vaan and Penelo. I'm not about to go around saying every childhood friendship = love, that's just silly. =P

 

[Joker]

@ Splintered: also notice how Garnet happens to fit the 'spunky princess rebelling from parent' bit, JUST LIKE RINOA DOES?

Garnet is a mix of the two, and Rinoa is...er...mostly the spunky, rebellious one. BUT SHE'S ALSO A SORCERESS SO THAT'S SOMETHING RITE


And yeah, Cloud and Tifa do fit the childhood romance cliche, in a way:

"You Couldn't Get To Sleep Either, Huh?"
If any character in the game ever meets any other character standing alone at night looking at the moon, those two will eventually fall in love.


But at the same time, the Aerith one also works. Just saying, that's part of why some people just won't GIVE IT UP already. Also note that Aerith is 'pink', and pink = girly, and therefore MUST be the canon love interest. /clerith pov

 

[Splintered]

Tifa and Cloud obviously fit the childhood romance cliche, as do Vaan and Penelo. I'm not about to go around saying every childhood friendship = love, that's just silly. =P

Not every childhood friendship is built like C/A, where Aerith shows obvious signs of flirting and Cloud can return them (depending on how you play the game).

There's got to be hints there in order it to become a red herring. That's how you get people to fall for C/A. And why people still believe in it. It's not like fans pulled it from their ass, there is context there.

It just that the entire thing fell through with her death.

One of the two female leads. Again the game is not the Cloud/Aerith story

I know. I just thought it would obvious enough I wouldn't have to spell it out. Although I guess people still get tripped up on that.

Also, it's another about face in the game. Aerith's role is presented much more prominently in disc I. The mysterious girl with the looming fate, and she has an entire level (Ancient level) that is created just to build her up.

She dies and all of a sudden we are presented with Tifa, who turns out to step up to the plate and has her own secrets.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Aerith isn't demure either. She got a helluva lot more serious but that was mostly after her death. She wasn't a bad striker either. She was weakest, but noticeable differences between player characters weren't all that apparent towards the end anyway.

Towards the END. While she's in the game, the differences are much more noticable. You don't have any Magic materia on her or anyone else, she's dropping quite a lot less damage than anyone else with her attacks.

Even with Yuna's change in X-2, it's quite obvious her main role is summoner/white mage. And she was the uber special girl with a terrible burden.

Burden, yes, special, no. Summoners were many, pilgrimages common. And again, Yuna's combat role was to mix support with the heavy artillery, but combat role and narrative role are pretty iffy to mix up. That we often do is just narrative laziness.

Garnet was the white/mage mystery.

Her 'mystery' was over and done with damn quick, and her role definitely a lot more about the artillery than the healing.

Rosa was the white mage.

You will fucking recognize her combat effectiveness. Rosa is a combat medic. Unlike typical white mages before, during, and after, bitch has output. Compare her to EVERY OTHER MAGE in game as far as her attack damage goes. Hell, compare her to Edge.
She was a white mage second, after being the best archer in the land.

And VIII was a mage, because there is no difference between black and white mages in this game.

She only casts deathy magic in her sorceress limit. Black.
IN ANY CASE, that's still ignoring her actual narrative role and personality and leading a resistance movement.

In fact, like VII, differences are highly customizable. She was the only person who was special since everyone else had the same story and she gets possessed( andsince every other character is a boring pile of shit. Well, so is Rinoa. But she's a special boring piece of shit.)

And if the only distinction comes from limits, she's a trainer/Black Mage.

XII Penelo also gets turned into the white mage and simultaneously, becomes Vaan's love interest (or her love interest role is expanded on).

She then loses her healer class and becomes a debuff specialist as a dancer in FFTA2. Whoo Game and story segregation!

I'm not saying that they ALWAYS get together. Obviously, VI pretty much flies in the face of that. And not all of these characters are exactly the same.

But it's still a cliche and a cliche that many people picked up on.

It's a cliche that a guy gets with a girl who uses magic so often because ALL THE WOMEN USE MAGIC.
More often than not, party women are the mages.
End part of FFIV, both casters. The only other playable female... is a white mage. Granted, there were a damn lot of mages period, but still.
FFVI, all three women learn magic naturally.
FFVIII, Rinoa is a sorceress, Quistis a Blue mage, and Selphie has access to the best spells in existence.
Freya is a dragoon, but she's also inhuman. Dagger and Eiko are Summoner/ Healer mixes.
Yuna and Lulu. Rikku is the exception here as a engineer/chemist/thief.
Only recently have the roles diversified as much as they have.
Hell, FF10-2 was actually oddly progressive in this regard. All three base classes for the ladies are combat-ish in nature.


Also, you don't need more hints for something to be a red herring. You just need a false hint to distract. That can come without any legitimacy and even in a single misleading hint or thing that causes an assumption to be made.

 

[Vendel]

Q: Also would you please enlighten me when Cloud and Aeirth were Lovers?

A: In the game. They go on a date. You should try playing it sometime.

I love shippers. I really do.

 

[Dashell]

A: In the game. They go on a date. You should try playing it sometime.

They went in the park on a date technically
But she doesn't need to know that.